Powered to Gliding

[OZZI_PPL]

With the ever rising costs of powered flying, I'm considering moving across to the world of gliding. I did a glider flight a few years back and enjoyed it thoroughly.

How much training would I need to "convert" from a PPL across to a gliding equivalent?

Are the costs pretty decent still these days?

Cheers

[SmoothCriminal]

you wouldnt need much....should take around 10 launches, just a matter of getting used to the towing side and circuit joining.

Prices have gone up a tad over the years like anything else.....but still in the safe side.
Once you start getting into the high performance fibre glass machines like LS4, LS6 etc then it gets expensive for sure but worth the fun though....

Smoothie :ok:

[Jabawocky]

Just remember that its not very powerful in the go around :ok:

[Stormynights]

Having come from gliding to power , the biggest thing you would have to get use to is RUDDERS...

Will need to learn how to recover from spins

And as previously stated go rounds are hard unless at 130kts

Should probably take 3 days to go solo but as with any flying thats when you start to learn to fly.

Im not sure of the clubs in Qld but i know in Vic thereare some that have a week course for around 2000 i think from memory this gives you 65000 feet in tows (not in one go) once you go solo you can use the extra height for consolidation.

Any questions feel free to PM me

Depend on the club you would be able to hire a glider for varying rates depending on the performance or "newness" of the glider

[superdimona]

>How much training would I need to "convert" from a PPL across to a gliding equivalent?

You can't - because strictly speaking there is no equivalent. Gliding is a ton of fun, but expect to jump through a massive amount of hoops before legally being responsible for your own operations. I'm talking at least a 5 hour solo glider flight, and quite a few hours (you need 200 glider hours, and you can count only 10% of your power hours).

If you don't mind an instructor being responsible for your operations, it shouldn't take you a huge length of time. Being able to fly a glider safely is one thing. Being able to use thermals to stay up for hours is another.You will need to demonstrate spin recovery which can be exciting.

Gliding is great but there is a reason why the GFA has such a massive turnover.


**Edit**

Stormynights: I've had to edit this post because for some reason I can't reply to yours. I'm not making the 200 hour figure up, look at the GFA ops manual requirements for level 2 independant ops. The fact that someone like yourself can compete in the nationals yet still technically be responsible to an instructor is insane.

[Stormynights]

Im sorry but i have to disagree with super D

And to be honest he doesnt know what he\she is talking about

I have competed in National competition with less that 200 hours !!

It comes down to your proficiency

There are some minimums but not as high as he/she makes it sound

Look up the gfa website.

These also are guide lines ...not set in stone

[superdimona]

Stormy: I envy your skill. But I'm pretty the nearest instructor was still responsible for your operations.

Check the GFA operations manual. Lets do a quick comparision between a PPL holder and a GFA pilot (who is not an instructor)

PPL: Can take passengers without permission.
GFA: Either requires endorsement + permission from the duty instructor on every occasion, or 150 hours gliding experience. Power time doesn't count(!).

PPL: Responsible for his or her own operations
GFA: Can only be responsible for themselves by getting a "Level 2 Independent Operator" rating. This requires 200 gliding hours, a Silver C and club comittee approval.

PPL: Can buy an aircraft (either by themselves or with friends) and just fly for fun
GFA: All parties have to join a GFA-affiliated club - also you can't make your own club with friends just to fly socially, because every club must have students. Do you just want to have fun soaring, and don't want to instruct in your glider? Too bad, you can't register as a club.

As for " And to be honest he doesnt know what he\she is talking about", well, I invite you to read section 19.2 of your ops manual.

Level 2 Independent Operator

Unlike the Level 1 Independent Operator authority, where club responsibility of independent operations is of primary importance, holders of Level 2 Independent Operator authority are solely responsible for all aspects of their operations when operating independently.
Requirements for initial issue of Level 2 Independent Operator authority are :-

*FAI Silver or higher badge;

*Flight Radiotelephone Operator Licence or GFA Radio Operator logbook endorsement;

*A minimum of 200 hours command time in gliders, which may include powered sailplanes and power-assisted sailplanes. 10% of powered aircraft command time may be counted towards this requirement; <----------

*Club committee approval;

*Oral examination on airways and radio procedures, SAR requirements and accident/incident reporting procedures;

*Be in possession of GFA Airways and Radio Procedures for Glider Pilots and all relevant current aeronautical charts and documentation (e.g. ERSA).



Do you hold a level 2 IO? If not, then according to the GFA, you are not responsible for your operations. Personally I think this extreme stupidity.

[Mark1234]

Erm, you're both right. Sortof!

What SuperD is talking of is being (and I can't remember the exact wording), an independant operator - so you can go and do your own thing as and when you like. that may be an issue for a motorglider, but generally it's rather hard to get a pure glider airborne on your own... so it doesn't matter so much.

FEW glider pilots are independant operators; most normally you operate under the auspices of a club, where the person who's in charge on the day is (often implicitly) authorising your operation. That's completely separate from your abilities to fly off cross country and such.

Now, the bad news - you're reducing your dollar expenditure, but the time expense is much higher. You don't pop down the gliding club to fly for a couple of hours then go home.. figure on a whole day; more if you land out / have to retrieve a mate. Figure also on your fate being in the hands of a lot of other, often older folks who are mostly volunteers. One person may be happy for you to go and do something, the next day someone else not. There aren't so many absolutes, it's a lot more about getting along with the game. Consequently consider the club you join carefully. (and to that end, it's well worth not turning up with too much of an attitude about having a PPL)

Personally, I've made the opposite move - to powered. I still dabble with the gliding, but much less.. Actually piloting the machine isn't too hard. You'll need to find out what feet are for, and towing will be interesting... but you should solo quickly. Moving to cross country flying, and learning to stay up will challenge - and take airborne hours... like powered flying manipulating the controls is a very small part of the picture.

All that said, it's a wonderful way of flying, and one I hope I never give up. Oh, and the vis is a lot better 'cos you sit right up front under a nice bubble canopy instead of behind the noisemaker! Imagine sitting at 15,000ft in glassy smooth air - having got there without an engine :ok:

[Stormynights]

Im not here to blow my own horn.

Maybe the rules have changed since i first got my ratings

Had my I O with less than 75 hours

Like i said i dont believe these rules are set in stone it depends on your knowledge and skill and the opinion of your instructors

I may be wrong
I was once before :}

[superdimona]

As far as I'm aware, the MOSP is a legal document and doesn't have any room for negotiation. I'm sure you are thinking of level 1 Independent Operator. This is what most glider pilots who get Independent Operator ratings have.

What that does is removes the need to have a Level 2 instructor present while you go gliding. Unlike a PPL, you are not responsible for your own operations.

From the MOSP section 19.1

In the case of an Independent Operator flying at a site which has a Level 2 Instructor present, Independent Operator privileges do not apply and the Level 2 Instructor's jurisdiction must prevail.

When operating from a site with a resident gliding club, Independent Operators are subject to the requirements of the resident club.

A club issuing Level 1 Independent Operator authority to a person is responsible for that person’s operations, even when the person is operating independently.

To get this rating you basically just need a C cert + approval.

I'm willing to bet that 95% of people learning to glide have no idea they need 200 hours and a silver C before being considered competent enough to be responsible for their own operations. You can get a PPL in a third of the time.

In practical tems most of this is irrelevent - unless you are flying a motorglider. Google my username :-)

[Pinky the pilot]

Gentlemen, I fear that you are getting somewhat too concerned with the fine details! OZZI_PPL merely wished to know what was involved with trying Gliding, being the holder of a PPL.

Wherever he goes to commence Gliding and once having attained solo status and starts to gain experience, no matter what Club or Organisation he attends, unless there is a suitably qualified Instructor present he will not be able to fly! However, most clubs always have an Instructor rostered on days when operations are scheduled and I would think that Independent Operators only days would be very rare!

For the record; I soloed in Gliders in a Mk 4 Kookaburra in January1970, hold a Gold C with two diamonds and am a former Assistant Instructor. (Late 70s)

[go_soaring]

I'm with you Pinky, too much jargain in the above posts! We want to encourage people into this wonderful sport - not scare them away :)

If you've got some PPL or CPL experience, I would think you could go solo in a days instruction. Probably no more than 3-5hrs I would imagine. Tows to 2000' these days in a club environment go for around $25-30 (or $7-10 for a winch launch), and hiring a glider at my club is only 60cents per minute with the instructor costing zilch. Most clubs also have a max hire for the day, at mine it's only $80!

Gliding has helped me immensly over the years in the commercial game, saved me probably $10,000 in my training costs. The reason: from day one I had all the hours required to sit my CPL flight test, I just had to learn how to operate that small smelly engine up the front!


go_soaring! instead

[OZZI_PPL]

Thanks all for the replies and useful information.

The only part which I have concern with, is the issue of availability. I work most weekends and therefore would be looking to do my gliding during the week.

Other than that, I think I will head out to a club in the next few weeks and poke around. Maybe try a TIF or something to get the feel for it.

Thanks again.

OZZI

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

If you've got some PPL or CPL experience, I would think you could go solo in a days instruction. Probably no more than 3-5hrs I would imagine

??

Going solo in a glider, for the holder of a PPL/CPL is more about the number of launches and landings than it is about hours of training. As a reasonably experienced PPL, I soloed in a Blanik after 50 min training. The highly experienced CFI at the local flying school, determined to not be outdone by me pulled it off in a bit over 40 min training. However you can pack a bunch of training into an hour in a glider - and we had the advantage of having one of the best instructors in the business as well.

Having soloed, I found the gliding club system far too demanding of my scarce recreation time (as pointed out by someone in an earlier post) and I didn't bother going any further with it - I just stuck with doing sessions of aerotowing for the club.

Dr :8

[Stormynights]

I dont know about Qld, sorry

But if you can get a week off and dont mind going to Vic i know the club there that operates mid-week over summer

Maybe Go-soaring knows more about QLD

[go_soaring]

Operations that I'm aware of..

Kingaroy Gliding Club (Kingaroy Soaring Club - Queensland Australia (http://www.kingaroygliding.com/)): First Thursday of each month to that Sunday. The following weekend is standard. The third Friday of each month to that Sunday. Then the last weekend in the month as standard.

Darling Downs Soaring Club (Darling Downs Soaring Club - Welcome (http://www.ddsc.org.au/)): Weekend operations only, though often organise something on public holidays.

Warwick Gliding Club (http://www.warwickgliding.org.au/): Only weekend operations, though they're now trialing the a long weekend soaring from the last Friday through to that Sunday of the month.

Caboolture Gliding Club: A great place to learn to glide so I've been told. Mid-week operations. Though limited to local soaring there. If the soloing pilot is keen to extend his/her skills, they often move onto the DDSC or the KRY Gliding Club.

Boonah Gliding Club (Welcome to the Boonah Gliding Club (http://www.boonahgliding.com.au/)): They definately operate on weekends, though seem to think that they also fly mid-week if arranged or in general. As their website suggests, call them for more details under the learn to fly link.

FTDK is right, sometimes all it requires is under an hour of instruction. As you know, you already know how to fly an a/c. It's just a matter of going through the emergency scenario's, cct planning and soaring basics.

Thankfully now your not just dumped at the solo stage to learn for yourself. The gliding movement has identified the need for Coaches to help you fine tune your skills after Solo. Generally these coaches are used for increasing your Cross-Country speeds and distances, though they're also happy to help with your thermalling skills etc to help you enjoy the sport more!

Any questions, ask away!

go_soaring! instead

P.s. I've got a mate (600hrs gliding prior) who went solo in a C172 in 36mins! How's that for crazy!! :}

[OZZI_PPL]

Good info,

Sounds like Caboolture might be the place to go. I did a glider TIF out of there a few years back. Very busy spot!

36 mins to solo is very impressive.........

Cheers

[outofwhack]

Comparing power flying to gliding is in many ways like
comparing motor-boating to sailing.

Just about anyone can steer a motor-boat and make it go where they want.

Sailing a yacht, whether it be for pleasure or competition, requires more skills.

A glider pilot, on average, will generally have a more refined knowledge of the weather, better knowledge of aerodynamics, better decision making skills and a better lookout than a power pilot. They wont know the best way to start a hot wet lycoming but thats about it.

Gliding rewards the better pilot by better flights.

OOW cpla cplh GLIDER PILOT

p.s. you wouldnt believe how many airline pilots fly gliders in their spare time!

[Stormynights]

Superman was a glider pilot

Need i say any more

[JaseAVV]

this is footage is taken from my hang glider at Fairhaven Vic on the great ocean road.
Hang gliding is very cheap! $2000 9 day pilot course (included accommodation), $3000 second hand glider/harness, $350 HGFA fees annually and that's it.

YouTube - Moyes Sonic hang glider flight, great ocean road australia. (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-A6Oqu0g2zU)

[gettin' there]

A glider pilot, on average, will generally have a more refined knowledge of the weather, better knowledge of aerodynamics, better decision making skills and a better lookout than a power pilot. They wont know the best way to start a hot wet lycoming but thats about it.



Well maybe the glider pilots you know should come and pass on some of their knowledge to some of the ones who operate with the gliding clubs out of the airport where i work.

Going out flying on days where ALL the powered aircraft are firmly tucked inside the hangars cause the weather is ****e, out go the gliders. Radio procedures are a joke and they seem to think what is a fairly busy CTAF(R) freq can be used for a personal chit chat.
Just a couple of the calls ive heard in the last couple of weeks:

-Glider to glider base "What is the wind doing, just wondering what
runway i should land on"

-Glider to tower "Its pretty dark out here are we expecting rain?"
tower replies "well the forecast indicates that we (and the most of the state) are expecting thunderstorms from about now"

Obviously their superior knowledge of MET doesn't inculde instructions on how to tune up an AWIS or read a TAF
:hmm:

- Glider base asking for position reports
glider replies "we are at postion XYZ at 5700" "
glider base replies "you are in CONTROLLED AIRSPACE suggest you descend"..........really you think?:D

Im told by a glider pilot who started out in powered that most of them at the club where he flies set their altimeters to QFE and have little or no knowledge about altimetry or CTA.

My personal favourite:

- After returning from a flight of several hours and hooking up the data logger, glider pilot is discovered to have been loitering in a Restricted area and couldn't understand why upon his return he got a verbal bashing for flying around at 300' AGL over a military live firing range:=

Now im not narrow minded enough to be slandering all glider or trying to start a powered v gliding debate, im sure there are plenty of experienced and knowledgeable glider pilots and that there will always be a small minority of bad eggs. What sort of theory knowledge requirements are there to receive a gliding certificate? Are you required to pass any exams that test knowledge of airspace requirements, MET etc?

Im asking as a legit question, not trying to be a smart :mad:

[Stormynights]

Gettin There


I would love to know where you fly out of ?

[superdimona]

Hi Gettin'There,

Wow, those guys sound... bad. In my experience they don't represent the wider gliding community.

Regarding theory questions, please see http://www.gfa.org.au/Docs/ops/abc_certificates.pdf

I don't think that there are any formal nation-wide examinations aside from those oral questions listed above.

[astirdave]

Hi OZZI_PPL,
as a Level 2 Instructor (an Instructor who can send you solo), this is a rough syllabus of what you would need to do before going solo:


Settle in – general aircraft handling – upper air work – primary and secondary controls revision
on tow – all tow – upper air work – circuit planning, noting difference between power and glider – side slipping
on tow – all tow – intro to thermalling/ turns with angle of bank greater than 45%
on tow – all tow - out of position on tow – stalling and spinning – no instrument – modified circuit
on tow – all tow – box slipstream and simulated hook-up – spiral dive demo identification - no instruments – modified circuit
on tow – all tow – right hand circuit- rules of the air – no instruments
Emergency – land straight ahead
Emergency – low level return to field
Emergency – modified circuit/straight in/right hand circuit - no instruments -to check the pilots decision making skills – rules of the air
a settler with no checks – rules of the air – if competent send soloAll of this of course after a thorough briefing about the aircraft, local airfield rules and airspace and GFA requirements. Some clubs may require more or less than the above. I would suggest you contact a nearby club and try to arrange a week-day to do this - precede the flying with a visit to the club to familiarise yourself with where everything is etc. Someone on this thread also made a very valuable comment about attitude (or lack of it)..... the flying is the same, but you'll have to get used to the cultural differences.
This is 'do-able' in a day and I have done it many times. It's a full day and you'll know you've been put through the ringer at the end!! Just remember that it is all competency based and some 'get it' a little faster or slower than others. Two areas that seem problematic for most power pilots is to use their feet (for the rudder) and circuit planning...if you mess it up you can't hit the throttle and go around. While these things may seem obvious, in practice this is an entirely different matter.

[oldav]

"Im asking as a legit question, not trying to be a smart ass" Had you actually just asked a question we might have believed you. Instead you chose to percede your question with a dubious set of anecdotes. I have flown from many gliding sites and frankly I do not believe what you wrote. Even IF your stories were true, I could tell you a litany of anecdotes of apalling behaviour by GA pilots. Whom of course never infringe airspace and always keep the radio chat to a minimum! (If you believe that I have a bridge in Sydney for sale...... Just one example, a Tobago crossing at 90 degrees an active winch launch runway, well marked on maps, at 500 feet. No response to radio calls on the CTAF. BTW, how many times have you had to go around in your first 150 hours flying? Guess how many times I have in my first 150-none. A glider pilot who doesnt get it right first time has no option to go around, and therefore is usually much more skilled than an equvalent GA. All that said flying "under"-and I mean under, the GFA sucks badly. An outdated senile organisation that simply will be dead in about 20 years from incredibly poor management as a result of an electoral system that Robert Mugabe would love to have. Carefully arranged so only a select few get to vote for the board. To fly a glider you have to join 3 organisations, a club, the state gliding association and the GFA-its a joke.

[GoDsGiFtToAvIaTiOn]

A glider pilot who doesnt get it right first time has no option to go around, and therefore is usually much more skilled than an equvalent GA

What a load of drivel!

But keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel good!

The reality is that a glider glider pilot in anything from the old Blanik on up has so much glide performance "up his sleeve", that the end result is not all that different from having an engine up front. You have to work a bit at coming down (ie by deploying speed brakes/spoilers/whatever). If at any time you look like undershooting, all you have to do it put the speed brakes/spoilers away and maintain best glide speed. Combine that with some sort of resonable positioning in the glider circuit and approaches and landing are no more or less demanding than they are for a power pilot.

But make a complete hash of the basics in either a glider or an aeroplane and it is likely to end in tears.

The gliding instructor who sent me solo used to demonstrate the performance of the Blanik by getting so low on final appr that you could no longer see the threshold (at Warwick - when the aerodrome sits on a bit of a ridge that drops away either end of the runway) - then he would put the speed brakes/spoilers away - and touch down halfway along a 5000' runway!

GG :cool:

[Mark1234]

Practically, the bigger bear getting used to how different the circuit can be on 2 different days - in nil wind it can be quite flat as described... then come in on a 25kt day in something draggy like a K13. Very easy to get hung out too far, and even if you don't, your final approach feels like a stuka attack :)

Oh, and there's not many glider pilots around that would use blanik and performance in the same sentence :E

[Stormynights]

When the weather turns to c**p and there isnt any lift around or worse you get caught in a microburst there is always heaps in reserve.
Try putting any aeroplne/glider down in a football oval cause its the only place you have

[Bunyan Wingnut]

I am CFI at Canberra GC at Bunyan 10km N of Cooma.

Power to Gliding Conversions are relatively straightforward - and we have this guidance on our website at Canberra Gliding Club (http://www.canberragliding.org) and Learn to Fly Gliders (http://canberragliding.org/Gliding/learnToFly.html)

Quote

Already a Power Pilot?

Many power pilots come to enjoy the purity and challenge of soaring flight. Whilst gliding builds upon the skills and knowledge base of powered flying, there are many challenges, new techniques and educational aspects to be explored.

In the context of controlling the aircraft, power pilots will notice the increased significance of rudder in countering aileron drag, elevator in controlling airspeed and attitude, and trim in reducing pilot workload. Attitude reference relative to the horizon is always emphasised as the primary reference, particularly for airspeed energy management.

Used to coordinating turns with the ball? Many gliders and sailplanes do not have the slip-skid ball, and use a yawstring affixed to the canopy instead. The yawstring operates in reverse to the ball: you pull the yawstring back to centre with rudder, or alternatively apply aileron towards the yawstring. It is a far more sensitive instrument than any ball or turn and slip indicator.

Circuits and landings present new challenges in judgement and energy management, without a throttle to adjust the approach path. Use of airbrakes to steepen the approach will be an enjoyable luxury; the opposite of normal power-off landings!

Many power pilots come to appreciate the learning curve associated with using the atmosphere to advantage, working lift and staying airborne without a powerplant. The challenges in soaring cross-country flight planning and execution are quite different to the usual A to B speed-time-distance-fuel planning in powered aircraft.

Oh yes, it is much quieter! Headsets are not required, except in some motor-gliders. The noise of airflow past the canopy (or the absence of noise) takes on new significance as an important indicator of airspeed and energy.

A huge difference will be the reduced cost per flight, as the fun per dollar ratio is very favourable!

Already a Hang Glider Pilot?

A growing number of glider pilots are also hang-glider pilots. Most hang-glider pilots will have to adapt to a reversal of their instinctive control responses. Instead of pushing on the bar to slow down and raise the nose, you will have to ease the stick back! Vice versa also - to speed up when flying too slow, in lowering the nose, you apply forward pressure on the stick, instead of drawing the bar closer to the body! Control use by three-axis control versus weight-shifting takes a little adjustment.

All the meteorological insights of hang-gliding are useful - but we usually do not work thermals as close to the ground as in hang-gliding. The speeds and altitude safety margins are a little higher. Landing at higher speeds also means using larger landing areas.

All hang-glider pilots find the gliding performance of even the most humble training glider and enormous advantage. The cross-country speeds and glide angles mean you can travel much further before regaining altitude in lift. You can also fly and land very safely in much more boisterous and gusty conditions, due to the higher wing loadings.

Most glider flights result in a landing at the same place you launched from. For many hill-soaring hang-glider pilots, this is sheer luxury! Long climbs and retrieves are less frequent when flying gliders and sailplanes!

Already a Balloonist?

We always land at or near our take-off location. Controllability when landing is improved, and landing on wheels improves the ground roll! Gliders handle more windy conditions in safety. The wind noise of air past the canopy will take some getting used to. Burner roar is non-existent!

These tongue-in-cheek observations aside, the finesse and atmospheric awareness, meteorlogical knowledge and airmanship skills of balloonists will be a tremendous advantage in gliding and soaring.

Unquote

You have already got good reliable advice on the few flights and emergency procedures issues you would cover in conversions. Once solo, off checks, then you should do your A, B and C certificates, which is equivelant to GFPT and PPL. Once you have your C you would be cleared for "family-friend" passenger operations, and previous PPL experience would certainly be relevant in accelerating that progress - in particular the passenger management and distraction experience.

The Manual of Standrad oprocedures says:
C Certificate - Requirements
•A total of 20 solo or mutual flights, including two solo soaring flights of at
least one hour's duration each.
•Trained and checked in ability to carry out a safe outlanding.
•Received a passenger awareness briefing using the "Air Experience" section in
Part 2 of the Instructor's Handbook (pages 8 to 12) as a reference.
•Oral examination on basic theory, navigation, meteorology, airways
procedures, outlanding hazards, post-outlanding actions and SAR
requirements.
•Satisfactory demonstration of spin entry and recovery.
Notes on requirements
1. This means an overall total of 20 solo/mutual flights.
2. Only time in command of mutual flights may count towards a "C" Certificate.
3. Power pilots holding a Student or higher licence may count 10 powered
landings as pilot-in-command towards a "C" Certificate, but must meet the
soaring requirements.
Privileges and limitations.
•May fly cross-country at the discretion of the CFI/CIP.
•May carry private passengers (i.e. not for hire or reward and not introductory
flights under GFA temporary membership), under the provisions of a Private
Passenger Rating as described in 16.2.4.


In other words, straightforward for most early solo pilots.

The GFA website has a heap of info at The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc. - Home (http://www.gfa.org.au/index.php). Links to Gliding Clubs are at The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc. - Gliding Clubs in Australia (http://www.gfa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=293&Itemid=160)

There is also a new site at Soaring Australia (http://www.soaring.org.au/web/) also with links to clubs.

Much has been said above on Independent Operators - this is all about people wishing to fly without the operational oversight of a gliding club. The GFA MOSP is under Documents in the Operations link on the GFA website and explains the rationale.

I hope this helps.

BTW I flew gliders from 1970 (Woomera GC - Ka7 VH-GNU) and still love it. :ok: I converted to power flying in 2003 and love it too :)

[Maggott17]

From JASEAVV:
"this is footage is taken from my hang glider at Fairhaven Vic on the great ocean road.
Hang gliding is very cheap! $2000 9 day pilot course (included accommodation), $3000 second hand glider/harness, $350 HGFA fees annually and that's it."

You left out the PRICELESS funeral.:rolleyes:

[JaseAVV]

he he that's pretty funny actually.

There are lots of hang glider prangs and even a few deaths each year..

That's kind of why I stick to the coastal ridges, the runway is a beach and the weather is generally fairly predictable.

[astirdave]

Whoever did that part of the flying (losing sight of the threshold at Warwick), if it in fact happened, was seriously negligent. There is nothing to gain by doing this type of exercise. Alternatively, demonstrating that the aircraft can be flown a long distance in ground effect is a valuable exercise - and fun!! And at Warwick only one end, the Eastern end, can you get below the level of the runway but only by about ten feet in a scrubby paddock. The western end has a slight ridge that is higher than the threshold.
Gliders also don't have 'speed brakes' in the conventional aviation sense. They are always referred to as spoilers or airbrakes (depending on the type fitted to the aircraft). This is deliberate because every attempt to distance 'speed' from a device which 'controls a rate of descent' should be encouraged. Mark1234 comments are spot-on.

[GoDsGiFtToAvIaTiOn]

Yeah Dave - whatever!

I haven't bothered with gliding for 25 years, so I really don't care what you call the things that poke out front the wing to help'em come down.

If you know Warwick, then you will know the genuine "living treasure" who did my training. I am sure he will be really bothered that you think he was negligent. I had the pleasure of meeting up with him again a few weeks ago, and in the course of the conversation he told me about doing aerobatics at night in a Wirraway! Some might argue that was negligent as well!

My recollection is that there is actually a dip between the western threshold and the rising ground further to the west - but it was 30 years ago!

GG :8

[NoTrainingWheel]

My response probably requires a separate thread but thought I'd pose it here. What is the opinion of pilots who fly both gliders and powered AC about the benefit of receiving some flight training in a glider before commencing flight training on a powered AC. Would glider training provide invaluable experience in judgment of glide angle (esp in a dead stick approach), use of the rudder and spin training / awareness?

[Mark1234]

It'll make you a more confident handling pilot in my opinion (which is based on being about 100/100 in gliders/power, and having flown with a few 100hr ppl types). Spamcans glide like homesick bricks in comparison, so I don't think it's that useful in the emergency scenario.

It's very common in powered flight to never use much more than 30deg of bank, and become very straight and level oriented, and consequently uncomfortable with anything that isn't 'by the numbers'. Glider pilots are more used to cranking around at silly bank angles and working nearer the edge of the envelope especially at the low speed end. Oh and occasionally having a real live field landing.

That said, if the aim is purely powered flying, I don't think it's worth the investment in time; you'd need to put in some serious gliding, not just a few short trips to get the benefit. Doing an aeros endorsement will give you similar, and perhaps more relevant experience.

[NoTrainingWheel]

Thank you Mark1234. Agree on the Aeros route. I'm currently training to fly on a RAA Foxbat and standard procedure is to cut the power to idle, set up an attitude for 55kt (best glide speed in this AC) and dead stick in from approx 1nm (before turn to base). The instructor has demonstrated some impressive banking S turns well short of the threshold if I was too high and needed to lose altitude. I wouldn't dream of trying this in a Cessna / Piper regardles of my skill level. Seems gliding training gives you an edge in this respect too.