Merged: Qantas:The Trashing Of A Brand

[newsensation]

And the price fixing....
how much did that cost, but still the CEO is not responsible.. they just sacked the employee in the usa... all his fault!

[dragon man]

The airline is on the verge of a total breakdown of all its systems. There are inadequate staff and those that remain are disengaged. The board have no idea whats going on, id go so far as to say that Clifford would not know if there was a 747 in his back yard until he got a knock on the door asking where the service desk was.

[argusmoon]

AJ will be reluctant to do much for awhile until he gets a feel for the business.
The Chairman is running around making a lot of noise but has little idea on how to fix the growing problems,
So far he has blamed everybody except those responsible.
Replacing the marauders who are responsible will also take awhile.
Dont expect much from the citadel for now except more of Scrotum Face's well worn rhetoric.
All this will take at least a year .Lets hope the Qantas luck lasts and we dont end up with a black smoking hole witha red tail protruding from it.

[speeeedy]

the clifford/joyce team are removing anyone that had anything to do with the APA bid.

Well then Joyce better sack himself. I was at a staff roadshow run by AJ telling us all how good the APA bid would be for all of us, said with straight face and all.

[SeeBee]

Whatever your thoughts about media beat up, exageration, incorrect information this article is succinct and covers a fair amount of the problem. The only way this problem will be resolved - that is without a hull loss - is for the repeated raising of these issues by members of the media. Preferably in a non sensational way, just the facts and the repeated statement as to the cause. Point the spotlight on those who are responsible, keep it there until their response indicates they understand. Any other way will be far too costly. We have to hope there is change before the disaster occurs.

[Mstr Caution]

It should be about making money not the relentless pursuit to save it & therein lies the problem.

[Flyingblind]

Talking about handing over a poisoned chalice,

Qantas plans flight cutbacks - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/25/2428906.htm)

Might just be time to retire those older birds early rather than later.

GD must be laughing his arse off at the sweet run circumstance provided him.

:ugh:

[airtags]

flyingblind:
......can think of much better ways to get lucky.....:E

tough times ahead for all - but remember the a/c tally in QF's statement to ASX statement includes some of the a/c that were going anyway, so the sky is ony falling in a select few places.

[hotnhigh]

Might just be time to retire those older birds early rather than later

:}:}:}
What was the average age of the 744 and 767 fleet these days????
If you retire the older birds, there goes the backbone of the operation. Still I agree. Bring on the replacements. Ooh that's right, Jetstar needs them first.
Qantas, an airline in great shape.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

and not take up the planned lease of two A330-200 aircraft.Who? What? huh? Got me stuffed.

not taking two leased A330-200 aircraft destined for JetstarOk Answered my question.

[lowerlobe]

I can see Darth and Mini-Me knocking on the door at Parliament House in Canberra telling the Government how desperate things are and asking if there any hand outs available....just like the car manufacturers in the US.

Did anyone else see one of the committee in Congress ask if any of the CEO's of the car manufacturers thought things were that bad and they needed help from the Government would they consider selling their corporate jets and taking a commercial flight home....not one hand was raised.

How many times over the years have we seen Darth spell imminent doom and gloom.Bookings might be slowing down and it's well known that a number of aircraft are past their best in terms of efficiency and resale value.The question is how can you tell what the real situation is.

We have seen 9/11 & SARS to mention just a few and the effect they had on aviation and the company told us the end was near and we all had to take a pay freeze,costs have to be cut,sustainable futures...etc...etc...etc...

Wait for the announcement that they are merging with BA/SIA/anyone so they can remain viable.Darth has wanted this for years and I'm sure he would love to see this at least started before he retires to run a pub in Wagga

[BeerMan]

I find the most alarmimg part of the article to be the general public comments following the story. What once may have been a sympathetic public have appeared to almost turn on their once proud national airline.

[sthaussiepilot]

Did anyone else see one of the committee in Congress ask if any of the CEO's of the car manufacturers thought things were that bad and they needed help from the Government would they consider selling their corporate jets and taking a commercial flight home....not one hand was raised.


I saw that lower, I thought it was absolute rubbish that none of them put their hands up to sell their jets!!


(I wouldnt want to either, but if they are in such a dire situation....its kind of a no brainer...)

[lowerlobe]

sthaussiepilot....Yeah that was my thought as well and you can hardly go running to the Government for help and drink expensive champagne at the same time.....well not without looking stupid.

"Sorry Senator but can we hurry this hearing up and give us our cheque because the ice for our drinks is melting in our private jets and we have a party to attend in Aspen tonight"

The irony of the board rooms today is that they all to often blame the unions for the problems they face.....

[kotoyebe]

I wonder how much of the "dire forward bookings" can be attributed to the fact we have difficulty getting a lot of our pax to their destination ontime lately? More than 24 hours to go Trans Tasman? That will instill confidence into the punters...not.

[speedbirdhouse]

Or provide them with the kind of service onboard that one would expect of a, "premium carrier".:rolleyes:

What about the passengers booked on the A380 out of LA who, due to an aircraft change, ended up on a two class 744?

First class down graded to J/C and to top it off........

No IFE AND no reading lights for the 13 hour flight.

Evidently they just sat there for the duration like stunned mullets.

It's no wonder cabin crew seethe when the discussion of management comes up as it's we who deal, face to face with these continual service failures.:ugh:

I wonder who those 400 passengers will choose NOT to fly with when next they travel?

[blow.n.gasket]

kotoyebe,
well if the latest rumour is correct, any Trans Tasman flying ,post april next year ,if late ,won't be the fault of Qantas!
Trans Tasman flying to be taken over by jetstar and jetConnect!:yuk:

[tech-line]

i wonder if it wasn't for the delay from boeing and airbus would qantas domestic even exisit.
maybe city flyer but would mainlain be here?
just a thought :E

[framer]

well if the latest rumour is correct, any Trans Tasman flying ,post april next year ,if late ,won't be the fault of Qantas!
Trans Tasman flying to be taken over by jetstar and jetConnect!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/pukey.gif
I Find that hard to believe. The J* market is the J* market, but if they consign all "Qantas " tasman flights to 737's, many many regular pax will change to an airline that operate larger a/c. Punters just prefer the larger a/c, simple as that and 737's are seen as a pain in the butt on anything more than a one hour flight.

[capt.cynical]

My fear is that the new CEO is a "one trick pony" he only has knowledge of LCA operations.
The DUMBING DOWN will continue. :{:\

[Frank Burden]

Don't worry, CASA will ensure the safety of the operation and we can all sleep well in our beds.:suspect:

[shazza26]

Flying Jetstar all the time sux, need to have the full service airline as well.

[prunezeuss]

With taxes etc....pretty much the same

[mrpaxing]

will take the majority of flights on the tasman from april. our lady bus driver in auckland has been told she needs to look for another job. mostly 737-800 aussie rego will be operated by jetconnect. emirates will start flying the A380 in april to auckland. good move by qf to downgrade the aircraft, NOT:yuk:

[Mstr Caution]

Jetconnect & Jetstar exclusively on the Tasman wont be happening.
QF management would otherwise be handing ANZ the business market on a silver platter.

As for the bus driver in Auckland. Sour grapes after 17 years of night driving.

[hotnhigh]

Forget ANZ, they've handed the business market straight into emirates's lap.
Quite often no business seats left on any of their services from oz to nz. And you only have to see the queue at the emirates lounge to see why qantas cant make any money on it. :ugh:
Feed it and it may grow, starve it and it will die.

[amp04]

Don't let logic come into it, managements involved. Rumour heard this week is that some if not all New Zealand based Qantas ground staff have been given notice. Jetstar will have there own staff. I suspect the only Qantas wide body we will see in AKL is QF 25/26 by mid next year, but that's only my opinion.

[lowerlobe]

Mstr Caution...Simply because it would be a poor business decision does not mean it would not be made....How many times have we seen decisions taken that leave most of us shaking our head.

As for your comment about the bus driver in AKL...A bit harsh don't you think?

Someone is contracted by the company to do a job and if it is taken away all you can say is sour grapes?

She was simply saying that she has been told that she will no longer be needed....there was no malice in her words.I wonder if I could describe the complaints about the suggested move of hotel in HKG for tech crew as sour grapes....

[CaptCloudbuster]

Latest intel is Jetstar to take over the Perth - Narita service also currently serviced by Mainline B767's!

Straight from the redundant QF ground handling staff in Narita:sad:

[Ken Borough]

In the face of recalcitrant unions, I believe that Qantas appeared to have little choice but to start Jetstar if the company was to survive. A lot of you don't want to face facts but the company could not sustain the antediluvian conditions demanded to be maintained by some of its staff's unions. It still can't. As a result, Jetstar is expanding at the expense of mainline.


I hate to see the decline of what was once a great and proud airline, the likes of which most airlines aspired to emulate. The decline is as much the fault of management as it is the unions as the former did not have the courage and/or will to sit with employee groups after the QF/TN merger to develop T&Cs that were typical of the late 20th century. That they failed to do this stands them condemned and to the relief of most, this team of domestic hacks has largely if not totally departed the scene. It is probably too late to stop the rot and halt the advance of Jetstar but perhaps one day in the not too distant future, Jetstar will form the two-class section of mainline as the Qantas brand.

[mrs nomer]

CCB,

The other rumour floating around is that JQ are getting more A330's including the deferred/cancelled QF aircraft to operate international sectors previously done by QF mainline.

Domestically, there is talk of Broome and Uluru/Alice Springs.

[lowerlobe]

In the face of recalcitrant unions
Now I know who you are Kenny.....you're Little Johnny.

How about if the management wasn't so arrogant the unions would not have had so much ammunition....

If the company worked with their employees instead of against them and put the money that was required to start and run J* into mainline instead then we would have an unbeatable airline....but keep on blaming the unions because they're an easy scapegoat when you don't want to face reality.

Ken I imagine you're blaming the unions for the world wide economic mess as well as cancer,global warming and most other things too.

[Ka.Boom]

QF fuel is hedged at a higher than current price......much higher.
767s to be removed from HNL and HNL handed over to Jet* in order to retire the older workhorses.
Load factor on QF services to HNL....88.6%
Load factor on Jet *to HNL 63.4%
Now the punters have no choice.
Qantas is on the road to perdition...in ten years it will exist in name only.
An oxidized bronze plaque on some building in Mascot is all that will remain.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

nomer

CCB,

The other rumour floating around is that JQ are getting more A330's including the deferred/cancelled QF aircraft to operate international sectors previously done by QF mainline.

Domestically, there is talk of Broome and Uluru/Alice Springs. Read post #4. They were already destined for Jetstar. You can put that one to bed for sure.

[max autobrakes]

Ken,
Now that the new Industrial Laws of the land have been announced how is Jetstar going to fare with the inevitable rise of Unions in their ranks?
The gap will narrow thanks entirely to managements dogmatic approach to staff relations.:eek:

[genex]

Qantas management can only make bad/stupid/ill-informed decisions whereas their Sky Deity pilots only ever make good ones.

Hmmmmm....

And the entire QF Board over the years has failed to notice that if only they would listen to the AIPA spokespersons who post here regularly then the Group could double its profits.

Hmmmmm....

I'd suggest that the ignorance and reclaitrance of the AIPA people here is proof initself of why Qantas needed Jetstar. Here's it in a nutshel folks: if you think Qantas WITH Jetstar is bad,.....I pray you and your sheltered workshop colleagues never find out what Qantas WITHOUT Jetstar would be like.

[Wingspar]

EBA's are not only signed off by unions, it is the company as well.
Management can't complain about T&C's since they've been agreeing to them off for years!
P.S. The Aus stated that the 2 A330's to be deferred are Jetstar's!

[prunezeuss]

Many management individuals have a mindset that allows them to believe that they have a divine right to rule.
They have little empathy or rmeorse for decisions they make as they truly see themselves as omnipotent.
Employees should simply obey their commands.If employees resist they are threatened and intimidated by whatever means management considers necessary.
They fail to realize that a modern workforce is generally well educated and have a perception of what is fair and just.
So we have conflict which is generally bad for the business.
Qantas is a perfect example.Employees are seen as being difficult beacause they are not compliant.
Employees on the other hand see managemnet as inept,distant and arrogant.
Qantas has suffered enormously during the course of this conflict.
Conciliation of some form is crucial if Qantas is to survive.
The days of combative mangement styles should have finished in the early 20th century.
If managment and employees of any corporation do not ocoperate then the business is doomed
Ken Borough is a management dinosaur who is about to become extinct because he and his ilk have failed/cannot to adapt

[lowerlobe]

genex....

Try and think outside the box....Do you think that of all the thousands of employees that are in the group that pilots are the only ones to be critical of the decisions made by management and the board or do you think pilots are the only employees of an airline?
if you think Qantas WITH Jetstar is bad,.....I pray you and your sheltered workshop colleagues never find out what Qantas WITHOUT Jetstar would be like.
genex .....Have you ever considered or understood that Qantas not only existed but operated very nicely for so many years without J*.

So what makes you think that Qantas could not exist and be profitable without J* today...

If the money that was used to start up J* and is used to prop it up today was spent on the mainline product we would be doing brilliantly thankyou very much....but we appreciate your thought as to our well being.

[Reeltime]

Luckily Dixon and his team thought of Jetstar. As others have said without having invested millions of dollars of mainline profit in JQ, Qantas would be but a distant memory now.

It will only be a matter of days before Cathay, Singair, BA, Luftansa, JAL and many other 'legacy' carriers will collapse. The management of these airlines do not have the amazing insight, to invest all their profit in a huge no-frills airline, that can then cannibalize the original airline.

Only non-management fools are incapable of grasping the universal logic behind this world beating scheme.

[Mstr Caution]

Luckily Dixon and his team thought of Jetstar.

Is this the same Dixon & management team you speak who bought you the APA private equity bid, freight collusion, rock bottom staff engagement levels, 457 visa's, Rockwell Collins IFE, Premium services in aircraft 20+ years old and a contracting mainline international network.

[speedbirdhouse]

Yes.

Just a shame that jetstar is all that they have thought of..........

[prunezeuss]

Oh C'mon they did think of themselves...all the time

[mrpaxing]

Australian airlines. Another great success story:{:yuk:

[kotoyebe]

I'm going to risk feeding a troll.

Ken, these are the same recalcitrant unions that Qantas used to make how much profit? Bit over 1 B for billion, wasn't it? Or was that all due to management? No, that's right. It was the huge profit contribution that Jetstar made. Sorry, I forgot.

Ken, amuse us all and put a real number, dollar wise, on a profit figure that Qantas could have made last year if they had the employers nirvana of a compliant workforce, ala "Ken's industrial laws", and let us know what those laws would be. I'm sure a couple of pilots can share a room at Motel 6 at Inglewood next LAX trip.

[VH-JJW]

The only thing that amazes me reading this drivel is that Qantas has a business AT ALL given the amount of vitriol directed at it and its management here.

Perhaps some of you should be wondering about job security in a global recession, not sabotaging the business because you do not like the managers.

Jetstar is here, get over it! Some of you are beginning to sound like those you knock who go on and on about a particular year in the 80's that shall remain nameless with your incessant Jetstar jibes.

I sincerely hope for all our sakes that QF flight decks are not the den of depression and despondancy which is reflected here. I suspect they are not.

Of course if you don't like it you can do something about it and leave, instead of whinging anonomously. :E

Finally, reading this I cannot believe that Jetstar pilots are joining AIPA.....:ugh:

[prunezeuss]

Ken Borough has a colleague...VH JJW......Another one who is just slightly right of Mussolini.
This is the 21st century....the us and them war is supposed to be over.
We are all living on the same planet in the same global economy struggling for survival.
What do we get ?...2 dinosaurs who stilll think its 1886.
Management and employees need to be on the same page.If they arent disaster follows.
Qantas management have made some appalling decisions but turn around and blame non compliant unions.At Qantas there is a manager for every 58 employees and all but a few are inept and deaf to the voices of staff.Very few are as educated as the people they manage.They are therefore found to be incompetent very quickly.
AJ needs to put a very big broom through the whole place or he will be the last qantas CEO.
Why? because there wont be any Qantas.
Compass I and II gone!!
Ansett..gone!!!
Impulse...gone!!!
Qantas is next......conspiracy theory anyone?
Australia will not have a premium airline to call its own and nobody will give a rats rear end

[lowerlobe]

Reeltime....Very well said....clever and with just the right amount of facetiousness:D:D:D

VH-JJW... I imagine you feel that the banks that have gone under and the ones around the world that needed a bail out were as a result of the people on the floor and not the genii that grace our board rooms...

Do you really think it is just Qantas pilots that can see why J* was born....or should I say adopted.

[Jetsbest]

Most QF pilots recognise the 'benefits to the group' of Jetstar; it's the way management went about it which has created the vitriol.

QF and its pilots had found solutions to every issue/ initiative/ disagreement/ fleet change/ efficiency target in the company's history; only one short strike about rostering/seniority over forty years ago! (confirmation please anyone?) QF pilots were the most non-aggressive, flexible and motivated subset of the company's work force. The pay rates for QF pilots were not world-beatingly high, especially when considered as crew compliment for long-haul ops (Capt, F/O + 2x S/Os vs 2xCapts + 2xF/Os in almost every other airline) and the very slow progression typical of the average QF-pilot's career. Even after privatisation, QF weathered adversity and even prospered when others failed.

Then Qantas;
- bought a stuggling small airline (whose pilots were all applying/had applied to QF) and propped it up,
- offered them new jets under substandard conditions with the threat that someone else would get them if the pilots didn't agree,
- watched Ansett collapse and suddenly had a market flooded with pilots understandably so desperate for a job that they would pay for their endorsements,
- segmented the brand and used QF resources to ensure the cost-base of the new baby looked unbeatably low, (Virgin didn't get that kind of leg-up)
- managers proceded to bad-mouth virtually everything about QF's hitherto loyal front-enders, and
- actively obstructed their inclusion in the 'solution' despite past practice and EBA assurances that QF pilots would be consulted if a new business model was being considered.

Now, given that;
- the supposed pay difference has narrowed substantially (eg Jetstar's latest, prematurely re-opened and deviously passed EBA), and
- the fact that flight-crew pay is actaully a miniscule part of the total cost of operating the airline, and
- the fact that all those group pilots could still have been employed into the QF group with consultation and a clearly-precedented 'win-win' (company phrase- not mine) on terms,
WHY is it so unfathomable that QF pilots might be disenfranchised with management on so many levels!!! :ugh:

I've said it before; what happens forward of a flight deck door is all part of the QF group's product and should be accessible to all the group's pilots. Unlike the various cabin service options, piloting is ALL full service!

The great and possibly unquantifiable factor is this; do the management really know the hidden yet very real costs of their decisions? An apparently much easier question to answer is; if it can't be shown on a balance sheet, do they even care? :sad:

[prunezeuss]

Well said that man.
A very clear and concise irrefutable synopsis of the whole untidy situation.

[Captain.Que]

By far the best post in this thread!!!

[The Professor]

Jetbest,

"The pay rates for QF pilots were not world-beatingly high, especially when considered as crew compliment for long-haul ops (Capt, F/O + 2x S/Os vs 2xCapts + 2xF/Os in almost every other airline)"

You will find many QF f/o's getting paid more than many of your competitor airline captains. The crewing of QF aircraft is neither efficient or competitive.

" . . flexible and motivated subset of the company's work force".

Flexible? Really. What changes are AIPA proposing to assist the airline during these troubled times?

"substandard conditions"

Substandard being anything less than your salary. Ever spoken to a new hire at Westjet?

". . . the fact that flight-crew pay is actaully a miniscule part of the total cost of operating the airline"

You will find QF pocketing 10's of millions of dollars per year in savings from Jetstar pilot salaries alone. This appears insignificant when washed across millions of CSM's but it is not something to be sneezed at.

QF will dramatically accelerate the transfer of flying to the lower cost unit as the downturn bites. Old mainline jets will be replaced with newer jetstar machines and mainline crew will be given a choice - Jetstar contract or the door. Dont be surprised if some Jetstar jets are re painted with the roo and fitted with QF look alike cabins.

[Mstr Caution]

Dont be surprised if some Jetstar jets are re painted with the roo and fitted with QF look alike cabins.


The perfect timing for that was the arrival of the A380. It didn't happen now so why would it happen anytime soon.

Cabin crew on the A380 are on different terms & conditions, but the technical crew aren't.

I would go as far to say that the first arrival of a J* aircraft in QF livery would see an immediate response from mainline crew.

[blueloo]

The Professor - you are clearly a subscriber to the theory "Aim low and you'll always achieve"

[mrs nomer]

Re the JQ A330's - the rumour is they will come from the existing QF A330 fleet, not the cancelled A330 leases referred to by Dixon/Joyce.

If it's true, good for JQ, not so good for QF.

[teresa green]

Think outside the square for a minute lads. Say JQ did not exist, one thing that not one of you have mentioned is where would that put Virgin? In a very good position thats where. The reality is the world of aviation changed with the LCC exploding on to the scene, and the traveller became very used to low cost travel, all of a sudden he/she had a choice of flying mainline mainly in cattle class, but has been also offered a choice to fly battery hen class for 500 bucks less, the result being JQ is going gangbusters, Virgin is struggling to keep up and Mainline is still servicing the UK and Europe as well as the US all of which are basically stuffed at the moment with the currency (and now the poms want $200 to leave their green and sacred land) as well as all the other problems raining down on our heads at the moment. So for you QF blokes it is now beyond anything you can do, LCC are not going to go away anytime soon, QF is pushing it uphill in the present climate, and we will see some mainline airlines in the world go into a spiral dive. But the one good thing going at the moment is that the joey is at least putting money into QF coffers, whilst had it been Virgin.................!? All the dummy spitting and accusations are not going to help, this is how it is, (and by the way this practice of some QF Skippers refusing a ride on the flight deck to a JQ driver trying to get to work does nothing for harmony, and serves the management well). The management loves to hear of stuff like that, divide and conquer, thats the spirit. I don't think QF and JQ will become a crossbreed, QF, will down the track, probably pall up with another viable mainline airline, and progress in another direction from there, it cannot be both mainline and a LCC at the same time and there is room for both. Nobody knows whats ahead for us all at the moment, at the best Australia has the best cabin on the "Titanic" and thats about it. Interesting times ahead.

[prunezeuss]

Rather than passengers being transferred from mainline(when they have a choice)Jetstar has tapped into a market which would otherwise have used a bus to reach their destination.
The Professor as usual chooses rhetoric over substance.
Jetstar is going gangbusters is also an unsubstantiated piece of nonsense.There are 3 Jetstar entities and none of them is going gangbusters.particularly when customers have choice.
Jetstar has always been a vehicle designed to force down mainline costs.Having flown Jetstar out of necessity and not by choice it is fair to say that the operation is total crap.
We are going the way of America.A country where airlines are not known for service.We will end up having a third rate bus service in the sky with no choice at all of premium carrier.
There will always be a market for those who wish to pay a little more to enjoy the flying experience.
The Japanese are insulted by Jetstar.Even more so now that the yen has risen and they have more money to spend.The Japanese market has declined and the introduction of Jetstar has accelerated that decline.
Needing to travel to Osaka often I do so either via Singapore or HongKong.Jetstar has removed itself from all Japanese ports except NRT
because load factors were so poor.

[lowerlobe]

For the J* team reading this,

Just to put the emotions into perspective and to try and understand what QF staff feel think about this scenario for a moment....

Mini-Me decides that in the current climate J* does not go far enough and has a cost base too expensive just as AO did for Darth...

So he creates Air Mini-Me.....with a cost base even lower than J*.How he does that is academic but for the sake of the argument he does...

Now how would you think the current J* employees feel about the existence of Air Mini-me?

Do you think they would embrace them with open arms?

Do you think they would be posting complimentary comments on PPrune about Air Mini-Me taking routes that previously were done by J*?

Do you think they would be happy about Air Mini-Me employees accepting an EBA with lower pay and conditions that currently exist at J*?

You can argue that Air Mini-Me is here to stay and to complain continually is just sour grapes not to accept the situation......Sound familiar?

teresa green...I'm not so sure that it is a fait accompli that J* exists and that if it wasn't then the QF group would have slid down the path into extinction at all....

J* only exist when the punter has no choice.Who gives them ..or rather who takes away their choice?

None other than the creators of J* ....

The profit contribution of the J* group to the parent company is hardly earth shattering and is arguably a negative yet some here tell us that without J*, QF would have gone under by now....but for a moment imagine if all that money was spent on the parent company..

More and newer fuel efficient aircraft...whereas the parent company at the moment is stuck with older and less fuel efficient aircraft.Not only that but the gap is widening as J* get more aircraft and the average age of the parent company's fleet gets older.

A better cabin product and by that I mean a far better IFE system,better catering etc....

A better timetable and on time performance....older aircraft have more reliability issues...(the classic and the 767)....as well as looking tired to the pax.

[mrs nomer]

Lowerlobe -

The problem with your argument is that J* is already Air Mini-me. They operate right at the edge in terms of minimum cabin crew on p!ss poor contracts, flight crew on an EBA that would be thrown out by QF mainline pilots, duty hours, administration support that is totally under resourced, limited engineering support compared to Daddy's company, too few ground staff that are run ragged etc etc. Need I go on? :ugh:

Additionally, EGH was created as the J*/Air Mini-me ground support organisation that runs on the smell of an oily rag. And it is indeed a rag tag organisation that has largely aviation inexperienced and unqualified people driving power push units etc etc. You simply don't get any cheaper than this.

In summary, there just ain't any margin left to create a yet lower cost operation.

This is the bottom. We are going to have to live with it or sink.

[lowerlobe]

You will find QF pocketing 10's of millions of dollars per year in savings from Jetstar pilot salaries alone. This appears insignificant when washed across millions of CSM's but it is not something to be sneezed at.

....Professor.......what millions of CSM's?

What you and other management fail to look at or seem to understand is the huge cost of the inverted pyramid.Compared to other airlines this one has an inordinately high number of middle and upper management...not to mention the cost and bonuses received by members of the board...yet you seem to fixate on the people who get the job done.

mrs nomer.....I knew someone would try and suggest that J* could not be any cheaper.I said that a lower cost base as part of my argument was academic but it was the concept of a cheaper entity that was the heart of the issue...

We all thought (including Darth) that AO was the end of it..but no J* was to be AO markII.There is no reason especially given the current climate and corporate morals that an even lower cost base is not possible...

He ditched AO so what makes you think there is any sentimentality to either J* or even QF?
To these people it is only paper...

If you want even one idea that could make another airline cheaper....how about all crew being hired and based off shore.They have done it with cabin crew so what makes you think that they couldn't do it with pilots?

The only real sticking issue with lowering costs is how far they are willing to push.If you think they care about us or you then you really don't understand their mentality.

mrs nomer...So you didn't answer my question..

How would existing J* employees react to the new employees and conditions of Air Mini-Me if it eventuated?

[packrat]

Get with the programme...we are sunk
Declining wages and conditions in real terms.
A fleet thats falling apart
A brand that is now associated with maintenance problems,a crap IFE and on time departure record that is farcical.
The shareprice is at a ten year low.
Staff morale non existant
By any benchmark Dixons experiment is a total failure.
Qantas is trashed..thank you scrotum face..now FOG!!!

[Sky.Rider]

Qantas flies to:
London,Frankfurt,Singapore,Hong Kong,Bangkok,Mumbai,Manilla,JoBurg,Honolulu,Lax,San Francisco,Auckland Noumea,Shanghai,Beijing and Narita.
Ten countries
Two or three of those are under threat.
Thats not a network thats an effing joke!!!!
Oops!..as of yesterday Buenos Aires.
11 countries

[Mstr Caution]

Only one more sleep Packrat..

[Reeltime]

Of course it is only the engineers, pilots and cabin crew who are grossly overpaid in Qantas.

If only an airline could operate without these annoyingly vital staff. QF management love to compare these groups salaries with the lowest paying competitor they can find. How do we compare with Air France, B.A, Cathay and J.A.L. you might ask...well don't ask management, they don't like the answer to that.

Now a question for the QF board.

Did you bother to scour the entire world for management candidates (executive and middle management) during the last 10 years or so?

Lets take India as one example, there must be hundreds, if not thousands of executives already running large and complex companies. I'm sure many of these people are at least as qualified as Geoff Dixon to run Qantas. I'm also pretty sure plenty of them would accept a lesser package than the incumbent.

Why was this option not considered?

Answer:

"Let's keep this in house boys, we don't want foreigners coming in and getting their hands on our pot of gold!"

[mrs nomer]

Packrat - No arguments. Dixon has severely trashed the Qantas brand. But if you think things are bad now, just watch Joyce in operation once he is officially handed the golden hatchet next week.

LL - AO was a half baked and badly thought out attempt to run a low cost operation. It was never going to succeed.

Regarding foreign based tech crews. How would this REALISTICALLY work for the domestic J* operation.

Speculation is one thing, but look sensibly at the mechanics of trying to do it - Where are these crews coming from to achieve a significant cost saving and make the entity cheaper? Having had some experience in this area with crews from certain countries where standards are, shall we say, dubious, it just wouldn't work DOMESTICALLY in Australia.

You're stuck with this J* arrangement LL - The question doesn't need answering, we are now Air Mini-me.

J* in 2009 = Qantas in 2020. That's the reality.

[lowerlobe]

LL - AO was a half baked and badly thought out attempt to run a low cost operation. It was never going to succeed.
mrs nomer.....Hindsight is a wonderful gift isn't it?
Regarding foreign based tech crews. How would this REALISTICALLY work for the domestic J* operation.
It would realistically work the same way it does for cabin Crew based in AKL.They would be hired by a third party and based in AKL and employed under a much lower set of pay and conditions.Longer hours,less pay,more efficient rostering,less or no super,no staff travel,No LSL...etc..etc..the list goes on.

They are paxed over to Sydney/Mel/Bne and they work ....simple.

They have overnights and after a week or so when they have finished their trip they are paxed back to AKL....in Y/C both ways of course.

So my question still stands ..but if you don't or won't answer it I know why.

[Ka.Boom]

Dixon is a failure and his airline is going down the same road.
All those aircraft on order and no where to send them.
The smartest men in the room(sic)didnt see the downturn coming.
They were blinded by greed.
Those that would blame union s for these circumstances need ot take into account the wage freezes accepted during 911 and SARS.Unions within Qantas have been conciliatory.
Dixon and his gangsters took advantage of this and betrayed employee trust.
Egoistic,morally bankrupt corporate thugs who have by any benchmark failed.That is how they are now seen.
Mini Me and The Chairmen will no doubt be offering more of the same.
Clifford...a man in his twilight years..... has already labelled Qantas unions as recalcitrant .
How about some conciliation?.Declare the war over.
Lets get on with the business of rebuilding and saving Qantas
The dinosaurs(management) never learn...they are doomed to extinction.
The sooner the better

[teresa green]

"JQ has always been a vehicle to bring down mainline prices". Crap. QF could not continue to charge what it liked, as it has for so long,especially short haul. The gravy train has come to a grinding halt PruneZeuss, like it or not. The world was heading towards LCCs and they were springing up like mushrooms, if QF had not created JQ then Loose Rivet Airlines would have. I have never worked for JQ or had much to do with it, but use it often and have few complaints. QF I also use and no complaints there either. "The Japanese don't like JQ," I personally found in my time they didnt like QF all that much either, not enough respect from C/C was their travel agents favorite comment.:rolleyes: The average punter does not give a rats about mainline, LCC's or whatever, he/she is only interested in getting safely to their destination, in some sort of comfort, at the cheapest price available, and that is now the way of the world. Check the Financial Times PruneZuess, JQ is the only performer at the moment, Qantas Link is doing ok but the big fella is not. (This is of course counting on QF beancounters giving out the correct information) (but if the travel agents specials are anything to go on and they are getting increasingly generous then there is some truth in it.)

[max autobrakes]

This will be the future direction of both Jetstar and Qantas, off shoring of every possible job and pressure on Canberra to water down the Qantas Sale Act to facilitate this.
What with the new Labour Laws about to be introduced into Australia, there goes Management's perogative to a large extent.
Why do you think Dixon kept Jetconnect on life support?
There is now a National Government in place in New Zealand.
They will futher expand on their equivalent of WorkChoices.
That in conjunction with the Mutual Recognition legislation will ,I believe see a large increase in New Zealand based Qantas group entities as a stop gap measure until Management get their way with the Sale Act which is presently curtailing their plans.
What next?
Well I would suggest another take over tilt for the company once the economic horizon looks better and I'd suggest the direction this equity bid will come from will be the middle east.
Watch this space.
.

[soliloquy]

Im X AN staffer, so Im never going to be a fan of QF, bearing that in mind.


Using the Qantas reputation about the safety record as a sales pitch is a flawed in the long term, as aircraft have changed and they don't fall out of the sky anymore with the regularity of the 60's and 70's.
So you come back to quality/attitude of service as the only real selling point. The concentration of thought from CEO's about shareholder value has been at the determent of running the business. As a regular user of QF , to regular for my liking, I find that the staff have on the whole become more disgruntled with the airline overtime. You operate in Asia and it will be an uphill battle for
QF to have a workforce that have the quality of your competitors.

[Dynasty Trash Hauler]

ahhhh, I suspect lowerlobe doesnt know what a CSM is.

Anyhow, the QF stuff being bleated about here is no different to anywhere else in the world. QF mainline drivers are complaining about JQ and the resultant slowdown of upgrades. Well in asia, many airlines are laying off crew and cancelling contracts. Upgrade concerns are pittance compared to getting the pink slip. Has QF done this?

Take it from someone who has worked everything from several asian airline contracts to US majors, sit tight guys, you are on gravy. Dont rock the boat.

[Jetsbest]

"You will find many QF f/o's getting paid more than many of your competitor airline captains."

Which airlines do you consider to be competitors? And keep this in context of my previous post about 'why the vitriol'; QF even then was still considered one of the better airline prospects in the world. I talk to pilot friends in other airlines, and have been around long enough to know that;
- if I had joined EK/CX/ANA for example instead of QF when I started my airline career I would have been a captain for at least five years now, and probably on more pay than a QF captain, definately in aggregate,
- QF pay might appear higher in some, but not many, cases but what QF doesn't pay, yet is keen to overlook when making comparisons, are things like;
* profit-share bonuses of up to several months in good years,
* accommodation and utility expenses for families,
* retirement/pension schemes more lucrative than QF's,
* Loss-of-licence provisions more generous than QF's,
* home travel entitlements for employees,
* subsidised family medical insurance plans, and
* exchange rate fluctuations which are selectively used to skew perceptions.

"The crewing of QF aircraft is neither efficient or competitive."

QF schedules often limit the degrees of efficiency achievable, not the contract, eg when QF flies thrice per week on routes serviced daily by others. Also, the longhaul contract allows some tours of duty better than CAO-48E, and you seem to have missed the point of S/Os as a far cheaper alternative to real captains and F/Os. Neither do you acknowledge the possibility that QF's contractual flight time and duty, as agreed with its pilots over many years, might actually be very sensible and a valid contributor to QF's safety record to date.


"Flexible? Really. What changes are AIPA proposing to assist the airline ...?"

Firstly, why is it always AIPA's responsibility to propose efficiencies? It is very hard to propose anything when potential courses of action are denied/stonewalled until a fait accomplis as happened with Jetstar. The company has, under Dixon, nurtured an antagonistic climate keeping uncertainty to the fore; the mantra being "we need to be more competitive" but offering no clues as to what they mean.

Secondly, QF pilots, when engaged with the company, accepted pay freezes post 9/11 (not flexible enough for you?) with long term ramifications (un-compounded super), have been habitual volunteerists for no pay (Bali bombs, Indonesion tsunami), and Australian Airlines but that evidently doesn't count. The Cairns experiment, which did not fail because of the pilots, demonstrated the possibilities for pilot flexibility but the Jetstar plan excluded us anyway. How would you feel? Note, I did not say Jetstar had to be on the same contract as QF (AO wasn't) but neither QF nor Jetstar pilots can easily transfer between the entities as group resources might dictate; now that would be efficient.

"...troubled times". So the pilots are supposed to (and did) fall over themselves to help in troubled times but when times have been good for the last three years the company has stalled on EBA negotiations, enjoyed increasing record profits, huge bonuses for some and yet continuously cried 'wolf' in every media outlet. Everthing old becomes new again in time. The pattern which has emerged is that QF will compare employee (but not management) pay to anyone on less, and stall until a crisis before seriously discussing conditions/efficiencies/contract changes. In the meantime, it's still always the pilots'/engineers'/cabin crews'/groundstaff's fault.

So can you explain to me the efficiencies QF managers chose when hiring more pilots into Jetstar to fly gifted A330s while QF pilots were contractually obliged, no forced actually, to take annual and even long service leave, sometimes in advance, while sitting around doing nowhere near contractual max flying for 18 months. This was the same accrued leave that many pilots couldn't take because they couldn't be spared due to shortages up until then! I know I wasn't consulted about that, and it wasn't me or my contract which made it so inefficient! In fact, the contract actually helped QF shaft its pilots! Handy clause, that!
And as an aside, when talking about F/Os who've earned 'too much', would you be referring to the many on the -400 who for the last 18 months were so under-manned that they were often 'riot-claused' to over 50 hours of additional pay in a roster? No wonder they made heaps! They were flogged though, but the surplus A33o pilots weren't used to alleviate the burden of 'expensive' pilots on QF; it's easier to make it look like their fault again.


"Substandard being anything less than your salary. Ever spoken to a new hire at Westjet?"

My point, and you could not have failed to see it, was that at the time in question my salary was 'not world-beatingly high' among QFs competitors. I have friends in Westjet actually who absolutely love the company (something about trusting management, and respect shown) because of what it gives them in life. A military pension, living somewhere affordable and efficient flying are all factors for them. My bet is that junior Westjet newbies are merely on a stepping-stone to bigger and better when an opening presents itself.


"You will find QF pocketing 10's of millions of dollars per year in savings from Jetstar pilot salaries alone. This appears insignificant when washed across millions of CSM's but it is not something to be sneezed at."

Yep, you're a balance sheet kinda guy. I can explain it no better than I did earlier. In my view QF has cost itself more in lost good-will than a rocket scientist could deduce from a balance sheet. I guess if it can't be proven then it can't be happening and doesn't matter anyway...

Finally, I hope. Talking and consulting with employees got QF to where it was, but suddenly became inconvenient under Dixon when opportunism, backed up by departure from past practices, unilateral cancellation of actual or implied segments of agreements, active obstruction of pilot participation in, and contribution to group expansion, all overrode loyalty-breeding engagement purely through simple inclusion. It smacked of illogical and irrational management hate toward now-stunned employees and was justified by transferrence of blame for the misdemeanours of a few to the whole pilot group.

That's how I see it. I hope for change. :rolleyes:

[StallBoy]

"Why should anyone be paid a bonus to do a job that they are already being generously remunerated for?
Are pilots paid a bonus to fly the aircraft?
Are Ground Engineers paid a bonus to maintain the aircraft?
In an "egalitarian democracy like Australian" how does this continue unchecked ?
There is something seriously wrong when a corporate vandal in a Gucci tie is allowed to continue larceny on a such an enormous scale.
When Dixon leaves will there be anything left to salvage?
So many questions and no bloody answers."


You didn't spell the country right, it's AUSTRIA.

[Reeltime]

smacked of illogical and irrational management hate toward now-stunned employees

I could not have put it better myself. What outsiders don't understand, because they weren't the target of it, is what it feels like to be publicly denigrated by your own management. On not one, but many occasions.

In business schools of the future, Qantas under Geoff Dixon and those around him, will be a case study.

How to swiftly, effectively and permanently disengage a workforce.

[packrat]

Mr.Green Qantas CC going to Japan have always had a Japanese National component.Other non national crew have learnt by osmosis how to treat and respect our Japanese customers.
What you are saying is a crock.
The problem with the Japanese market has always been the crap equipment that has been sent up there.
The classics were always/still breaking down.If you are talking about disrespecting the Japanese it was Qantas managment who did it.
These boofheads finally put Airbus A330s up there...but unfortunately the damage had been done by the Classics.
CC are a soft target...its easy to blame them if a market goes south.
Qantas Managment have always blamed someone else for their failures.
They are consistent....pricks.
Vitually everyone in Qantas managment are ex a domestic airline.All the Qantas guys got shunted with the merger.
These other turkeys have no skill set to run an international operation.
They realized that early on.The cash flow was enormous so they got themselves a lot of that.
Creation of executive wealth is what these swine have excelled at.Dixon is the second highest paid Airline CEO in the world.
His remuneration is not consistent with the size of the airline.
Dixon is little more than a well dressed thief

[lowerlobe]

ahhhh, I suspect lowerlobe doesnt know what a CSM is.
OK acronyms seem to be everywhere these days so enlighten me Dynasty Trash Hauler......

Teresa Green...I know LCC's are popping up everywhere and more than a few have also gone under.However,as I said imagine if all the money spent on J* was instead spent on mainline.

Mainline would have shiny new aircraft and be promised all the future aircraft.

Timetables would be more easily met and there would be less maintenance issues.We could have gotten rid of all the tired aircraft like the 767 and the classic as well as a number of older 747-400....Japanese pax especially notice things like that.To them presentation & image is just about everything.

[teresa green]

I have been crewing many a aircraft, with a full complement of C/C whom the only thing asian about them was probably where their ties were made. Certainly there were cabin crew that spoke Japanese and no doubt did their job well, But there were complaints on more than one occasion, and it more boiled down to two different cultures with two different attitudes, fully understandable on a international flight, no matter how hard you try, the human factor comes into it, especially in times of stress like severe turbulence, to say it did not occur is bullSh%t.

[surfside6]

Who did you fly with and what position did you hold?
When did these events that you mention occur?
How often did they occur?

[Dale Hardale]

Lowerlobe,

Rightly or wrongly, Qantas obviously felt there was a better return for shareholders with Jetstar getting a percentage of new aircraft. :confused:

The board can't see past it's financial nose to realise that they are losing much more than money, what with maintenance and service delivery components of the business heading south at an ever increasing pace.:ugh:

It would seem that the Jetstar experiment may become the mainline of the future if GOD's successor pursues the same policies as he did at JQ.

[teresa green]

In Australia, TN/QF, only ever employed up the sharp end mate, far to ugly and cantankous to ever be cabin crew, I would have lost my job years ago for throwing some silly bastard off the A/C. I just happened to be a techie that took a interest in what was happening behind me, and always enjoyed a chat with the C/C and made some good mates, some who are still around, in fact one of the best (and a icon in the company) of whom we used to call FSD's is my friday night drinking mate, why the silly old bugger puts up with me I don't know but he does, (shows the patience of C/C.)

[Capt Kremin]

It would seem that the Jetstar experiment may become the mainline of the future if GOD's successor pursues the same policies as he did at JQ

I think Jetstar DOM is pretty secure but people have so far missed the nuance of the move to not take up the two A330-200's for Jetstar International.

[prunezeuss]

So when did these events you allude to take place?

[Jetbest]

Jetsbest you Quoted!!!

- if I had joined EK/CX/ANA for example instead of QF when I started my airline career I would have been a captain for at least five years now, and probably on more pay than a QF captain, definately in aggregate.

Having copies of EK/CX/ANA Pilot contracts as well as many others,i know of know other airline which has a 655 Page T/C.Please correct me.ANA is less than 40.CX is a 65.EK is around the same but with company overides.

You like alot of your QF mates miss the point.QF Pilots pay with there conditions are worlds best cost!!!:D As i have said before they would make the Wharfies pre Corrigan embarrased.In my previous airline 747-400 F/O was paid $ 130,000 AUS a year for 950 stick hours[NOT CREDIT] QF 747 S/0 do considerably better,[i see there group certificates] . 4 crew ops wher unheard of. At L.A. we would operate 15 hour stick back to ASIA 3 crew while QF beside us had 4 man crew with all there Pilots on much more than the rest of us.
My point is that i am not envious of your T/C but please do not insult us by telling us how hard done by you are.QF Pilots have the best T/C in the world,and still want more.I hope as one of the last legacy carriers you can keep them,however i think your day of reckoning is at hand.I hope that most of you will see sense if not there will be a lot of good people hurt.
Good luck with EBA8.Maybe it will to 700 pages!!!!:=

[teresa green]

Without trolling thru my log books, PruneZeuss I would say about 12 years ago. Living on the Gold Coast let me assure you they are scarcer than a ro%t in a convent up here, not like the good ol days when all the street signs in Surfers Paradise were in Japanese. They have long since moved on and prefer HNL (a bit ironic is't it) and all the fancy Ralph Lauren curtains in a brand new A/C is not going to bring them back. As far as their culture is concerned, they are sensitive to directions and requests (as you probably know) and are easily offended, the cabin crews in this era worked hard to overcome this, but at times the system failed, especially in times of stress or anxiety, and the C/C being Aussies were not beyond getting the total sh$ts, when requests re seat belts, or not using the toilets at certain times were simply ignored. Nothing more than two different cultures doing things their own way, which ended up in some complaints being made to QF management. I cant spell it out for you any other way. No doubt things have changed, as a younger generation of Japanese Nationals travel and are far more western themselves these days. It does not matter if the PAX are Asian or Masai the understanding of different cultures is always a challange for C/C, when all you have to understand is the ATC. I take my hat off to em.

[Angle of Attack]

What the hell is a Techie? FFS no one else calls pilots that anywhere else in the world, Its Pilot dammit! :ugh:

[lowerlobe]

Dale Hardale.....The thing that I have noticed is that apart from a few ads about the A380 all the adverts I see on TV are for J*.....

As far as a percentage of the group, J* is but a small slice but they get nearly 100% of the group TV advert budget...

I wonder if they spent as much on advertising for QF as they do for J* would our profit be a lot better...

[genex]

I think its Group profits that matter most....and in todays' soft markets where yields are hard to get, Jetstar is most useful.

Thats the point....that with the two brand strategy QF is better placed to cope than others. That may change over time and no doubt could have been better handled. For example I am sure if they had their time over AIPA wouldn't have instituted such a prolonged disdainful attack on the JQ pilots. I hope that's the case anyway.

[max autobrakes]

Jetbest
It's "their" not "there".
Most 400 crew I know are knocking on 900 stick hours a year ,pretty piss poor isn't it.
Why don't we go for 1000hrs, 2 pilot every where?
Where did CAO48 come from and what was the science behind it?
Is it time for a complete revamp of the flight and duty limits?
Where is FRMS at?
The contract you seem so intent on sneering at has to comply with the laws of the land.
This contract you appear to deride has evolved over time to produce productivity improvements.
Unfortunately it is a lot harder to achieve evolution than revolution.
EBA 8 and the resultant vote I believe indicates this.

[teresa green]

Angle of Attack, I prefer to call myself a retired traveller in Aluminium Tubing, which stops the party drunks telling me I was a overpaid bus driver, who got paid for screw#ng myself stupid around the world (if only)! Techie, driver, pilot, who gives a flying? :E

[prunezeuss]

The circumstances you spoke of are not/were not specific to Qantas Crews flying to Japan.On any given day on any given aircraft these events can and have occurred ever since airlines started carrying passengers.
In any community there can be cultural misunderstandings...Japan is no different from any other community except that they expect "honorific" treatment when something or someone screws up.This is the way they respond to each other and itsi expected that all others(non Japanese)will respond in a similar manner.The older male (samurai)passenger does not like to be told to sit down in turbulence...particulalry by a female.
These events need to be seen and appreciated in context.
Again I reiterate it was the equipment sent to Japan that caused most problems and great embarrassment to Qantas Japanese employees.
Qantas management choked the goose that laid the golden yen and Tourism Australia ably assisted them

[teresa green]

PruneZuess they will be back. Tourism is like everything else, it goes in cycles, right now the Middle East is the flavour, next year it will be someplace else, plenty of Arabs, South Africans, Kiwis, buzzing around QLD at the present time, and they are not manipulated into buying in marked, overpriced dutyfree shops and using only certain bus companies and hotels (all owned by guess who). Next time they come back I hope they are free to travel as they wish, instead of being herded like sheep, I used to feel sorry for them.

[oicur12]

"Where did CAO48 come from . . . "

The stone age.

". . . and what was the science behind it?"

Hand flying non precision approaches on 5 sector days in a DC3 was hard work.

[teresa green]

oicur12, to say nothing about the muscles in your legs. My legs used to shake and cramp, I could barely walk sometimes, especially if you flew all day.. no wonder my undercarriage is stuffed now.

[dmussen]

Flew Qantaslink to BME from PTH and back today. Service good and both arrivals were good in that we walked off the aircraft.
What is the bitch here?
Flown with them for two decates with no problems.
Suggest you all get a grip.
Victor B1a

[dmussen]

I am an ex-mlitary pilot.
I fly with many airlines worldwide.
We did not have to have cabin staff to look after the self loading luggaqe.We had bombs.
Who do reckon is the best with Pax.?
My bet is Singapore.
Victor B1a

[Jetsbest]

So you can count pages; congratulations.

It seems there is no acknowledgement that;
- the contract is fat because it's been refined, with agreement between both parties, over many years,
- at least half the clauses which make the contract fat are company-specified protections/exceptions/obligations on its pilots,
- the other half are there for good, if reciprocal reasons too,
- despite your example I also know many who get paid more than me and work less days/stick hours than me despite their slimmer contracts,
- it actually worked pretty well and consultatively until 'the powers' decided to re-invent the wheel, hence
- my original answer to 'why the vitriol?' ;)

Hard done by? No. Reality as I and many others see it? Yes. Sensible management tactic? Time will tell. :hmm:

Prof, are you out there? You must be able to counter-answer?

[packrat]

Allan Joyce has admitted that the public perception of Qantas and its safety record have been battered by recent events.
A profound insight into a business that has been pounded by managerial greed and incomptence.
Mr.Joyce appears to be offering more of the same...stupidity!
FOA!!!!

[AlphaLord]

America is in decline.
Europe is in recession and the EU has lost its way.
The 21st Century will belong to Asia.
Why would Qantas want to merge with an airline not in Asia?
Qantas management have always had difficulty negotiaitng the Asian business Psyche.
The UK and BA are a known quantity.
BA is suffering from years of managerial incompetence and the monetary problems of its consumer base..Europe.
Qantas needs to merge with a healthy Asian Carrier in order to move forward and capitalise on its unique geographical location.
The Jetstar investment in Vietnam(Pacific Partners) is losing large amounts money.
Qantas needs to increase its holding in this company and aggressively grow the business as a platform for Asian expansion.
Management arent up to the task.Hence the foreplay with BA.
Unfortunately for Qantas there are no Asian Carriers that need Qantas as a bed partner.
What Qantas needs and what it wants are not coincidental.
There are opportunities that exist now that wont last.
Management need to be swift and visionary.Something they are not known for.
The Clifford Joyce team is already shaping up as the odd couple.
By the time they understand what is happening now...it will be too late.
History will not view Dixon well.He failed on so many fronts and has cost Qantas its future.
Joyce is merely the caretaker of a company imploding

[Shazz-zaam]

Just a suggestion, but why doesn't Qantas merge with Philipines Airlines or Garuda?
The way Dixon has run down the company over the years they wouldn't want to lower their standards.
:ok:

[Jetbest]

Jetsbest you Quoted.

- the contract is fat because it's been refined, with agreement between both parties, over many years,
- at least half the clauses which make the contract fat are company-specified protections/exceptions/obligations on its pilots,
- the other half are there for good, if reciprocal reasons too.

Jetsbest,Sir Humphrey Appleby of Yes Prime Minister fame would be proud of your justification of your 655 page EBA.How you can justify having over 600 pages of T/C more than other world carriers beggars belief.:D The reason that EBA 8 was put up was to try and bring a unweildy document into the 21st century.It was still over 200 pages but was voted down as being to radical:=
I hope that your new Union leadership trys to convince the QF Pilot group of the folly of there ways but only time will tell. 2009 will be a interesting year.:ok:

[The Professor]

"The perfect timing for that was the arrival of the A380. It didn't happen now so why would it happen anytime soon."

No, the A380 will yield the greatest return for the company. Crew costs have the least impact on this aircraft. There are much smaller fish to fry where the crew costs represent a much larger chunk of the operating cost and can make the difference between win and lose.

"Which airlines do you consider to be competitors?"

Malaysia Airlines. Singapore. Thai. Air China. Eva. China Airlines. Korean. Air New Zealand. Asiana. China Southern. Garuda. Vietnam Airlines. China Eastern. Phillipine Airlines. And more.

These airlines crewing costs are significantly lower than those of QF.

"S/Os as a far cheaper alternative to real captains and F/Os."

An SO at QF earns more than an FO at most of the airlines above and more than a Captain of some of these airlines.

"Firstly, why is it always AIPA's responsibility to propose efficiencies?"

Its not "always AIPA's" responsibility to propose efficiencies. It is, however, your ass on the line when QF downsizes or god forbid, ceases operating. Perhaps being proactive is not a bad thing. Its amazing what efficiencies the employees of AN were able to find under administration.

"Yep, you're a balance sheet kinda guy."

I am. So are the folks that run your company. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE PROFITABLE AND YOU HAVE A JOB."

[packrat]

Many large corporations are in a mess and yet non performing CEOs are rewarding them selves with pay increases,share options and corporate jets.
Many have the same mentality as the Professor which is characterised by an overblown sense of entitlement and a self bestowed divine right to rule.
The professor suggests that we are all lucky to have a job.
It is ultimately the worker on the shop floor that pays for the arrogance and incomptence of failed CEOs who are it seems accountable to no one.
Qantas is no different to other corporations in that the employees at the coalface have a better understanding of the business than the overpaid fools who (mis) manage it.
The current economic environment shoud be seen as an opportunity to limit CEO remuneration and subject them to the same accountability as the rest of the workforce.
They are,after all,employees
Something that many appear to have forgotten

[Dropt McGutz]

Okay professor, please produce the documentary evidence to support your claims about Qantas second officer's pay. Oh, and while you're at it, cost of living comparisons between those countries and Australia too please.

[blueloo]

Yep, you're a balance sheet kinda guy."

I am. So are the folks that run your company. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE PROFITABLE AND YOU HAVE A JOB."


Yes..... and probably 50% of the profit was due to a lack of maintenance on the aircraft..... but the chickens will come home to roost on that one.

Looking after the balance sheet is important...but along with that comes responsible future planning, and growing markets etc. QF have been so blinded by cost cutting (which to an extent was needed) that they appear to have forgotten about the rest of the business. I think Alan has a huge task rebuilding a largely dysfunctional internally fighting company - where every department is determined to flog its costs off to another department.

[Jetsbest]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I've tried to answer and elaborate, in detail, an early question on this thread; why the vitriol at QF? Replies have invariably been selective, narrow in scope, and assertive but not necessarily demonstably factual. :ugh:

My experience/impression of the last few years, and I'm not alone, is that QF management has been devious, deceptive, manipulative, non-consultative, exclusionary, and can't be trusted to accurately reflect the facts. I maintain that QF management could have cultivated, and might yet regain, the respect of the employees with their actions, tactics and inclusiveness; that approach can lead to massively improved engagement, and in turn to far better levels of service, wilful and cooperative cost-containment, and efficiency from employees. It's possible that profits might even soar. :rolleyes:

The assertion that competitors' crewing costs are far lower than QF might , just might, be partly true in isolation, but now compare the profitability of those competitors with QF and most don't even come close. So I return to my theme; why smash the people, who help most to make an airline profitable? It seems obvious to me that it is not only about crewing costs. It has nothing to do with costs-of-living (sorry Drop).

Finally, I don't defend a 600+ page EBA. It is what it is. But the ability to condense it to the beautiful simplicity of a poorer-record less-profitable airline's "benchmark" rests at least as much with QF managers as it does with AIPA. I trust that Alan Joyce decides to convince the industrial strategists of the folly of their ways but only time will tell.

2009 will indeed be an interesting year. :ok:

[QFinsider]

My sources inside mention that talking a good game is all that changed...

AJ will continue the path set upon by Dixon, albeit a little more eloquently (word wise)
Management will continue to divide and conquer..Stand by for Jetstar Lite. No expense will be spared to flog staff, particularly as the real economy feels the impact of the 100 year event.

The end game will no doubt be a while in coming but nonetheless if Leigh can't sell it, he will merge it, naturally more of the spoils fall to management..

They are after all the smartest guys in the room


Just remember they will privatise the profit and socialise the loss..
Good enough for the finance industry, good enough for cars, why not good enough for a run down airline?

[packrat]

Dont these bastards ever learn.?
Airlines require engaged staff who are well resourced.If Qantas want to be the worlds premium airline they had better start treating their employees like human beings rather than carbon based units of work.
Unfortunately Clifford is a Dinosaur whose raison d'etre is to kick arse.
It may have worked 20 years ago in the mining industry but unless Clifford lives under a big rock,it wont work now.

[CoolCat]

Why did they have to change the QANTAS logo?
I don't think the new logo is as nice as the old.

[Sunfish]

Just understand that QF's profits are a tax on all Australians. If QF had to compete in real dog eat dog competition here, airfares would be way cheaper, and more Australians would have jobs.

[Spelling Police]

What drugs are you on Sunfish? I hope your post was a wind-up but I can't see how or why.

Just understand that QF's profits are a tax on all Australians. If QF had to compete in real dog eat dog competition here, airfares would be way cheaper, and more Australians would have jobs.

Which fares would get way cheaper? Domestic airfares are unsustainable at their low levels already. Why would lower airfares lead to more jobs? Why are the profits a tax on all Australians?

[lowerlobe]

Just understand that QF's profits are a tax on all Australians. If QF had to compete in real dog eat dog competition here, airfares would be way cheaper, and more Australians would have jobs.
Sunfish....

For the first time I could not disagree more with a post from you..

I am in no way a believer of the way QF management operates but...

If Qantas or any Australian business had to compete with an overseas business with cheaper labour and help from their own government it would hardly be a level playing field....cheaper airfrares and goods .....maybe but who would have jobs to buy those things.

If Sunfish had his way we would all be a nation of consumers and nothing would be made or produced in Australia...if that's the case who would have a job?

It was an idea that only Howard could come up with.....there is no such thing as a level playing field.Not all, but a lot of other countries help their own airlines and population and Sunfish would like to throw Qantas out on it's own.

[blow.n.gasket]

Let's just offshore the whole shindig so we can all sing "The Chaser's" inspired Qantas theme song " I still call Australia 51% home" :ok:

[Jay & Silent Bob]

Interesting to read what the general public think of Qantas.

Reader's Comments: Qantas appeals for Australians' support | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/comments/0,23600,25057888-462,00.html)

[roamingwolf]

You gotta love this airline.They work their staff over time and time again and get them to take a wage freeze and lower conditions.All the time they are doing this they give themselves bonus after bonus.They give the airline the moniker the 'spirit of australia' and play 'we still call australia home' and at the same time set up bases overseas as well as sending aircraft os for maintenance so they can cut back on the number of australians they give jobs to.
then to rub it in and make it even better they appeal to australians to fly with them:yuk:

[mmciau]

How dare Qantas ask us to support them when their past Board and past Senior Management have been hell bent on protecting the Board and management's self interests.

Qantas has a long way to go to restore my complete faith in them!

Mike McInerney

[The Professor]

Mr Gutz,

Its not that difficult to find compensation data. Once upon a time it was a big part of my job.

Would you agree that when take home pay can exceed $180,000 per annum for a senior S/O it would be close to the mark? Would you feel comfortable debating this figure?

"If Qantas or any Australian business had to compete with an overseas business with cheaper labour and help from their own government it would hardly be a level playing field."

No, it would not be level, for long. The market has a fascinating way of ensuring that the playing field becomes level though. QF would quickly cut costs or rapidly sink. But a significant imbalance rarely lasts for very long in a truly competitive environment.

[blackguard]

Prof you are very selective regarding the issues you wish to debate..
CEO hypocrisy,incompetence and greed need to be addressed by shareholders and legislators.
Turning up for a government handout in a private jet is indicative of the CEO mindset.
Dixon was reknowned for removing commercial passengers so he could sit in his favourite seat.
Dixon forgot he was an employee.
The Professor... Defending the Indefensible

[Capt Kremin]

Professor, that senior S/O may indeed be making that much, but that is still less than the F/O's that other airlines use to do the same job. Have you factored that into your arcane calculations?

[bdcer]

Professor,
mate I also heard a story about a SO pulling in circa $180k, but I really cannot work out how. After three years with the company (ie. past probation wages) I made $83k all up as SO on the Jumbo (that was about 2 years ago, thereabouts). Maybe if you were "super senior" & managed to do just the high overtime US trips & worked well over your rostered flying? Even then I can't figure how you could get it over $150k? So yes they can get more than a FO on say the 737, but they are still cheaper than another FO on the Jumbo.
Anyway, this is causing further drift off topic, sorry...:)

[Ken Borough]

but that is still less than the F/O's that other airlines use to do the same job.

but.......this simply rationalises the obscene annual pay of very junior pilots with not a lot of experience. This high cost for some who are barely old enough to shave is just one of the reasons for the existence of JQ but some just don't get it! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[blackguard]

The average S/O is in the hole for $100,000..or his parents are.
No matter what he/she earns this is a far greater debt than the average Med Graduate.It takes years for an S/O to pay this debt back.
They are entitled to their renumeration.Its what the market supports.
The debt is obscene not the income
Despite the current downturn there is still going to be a worldwide shortage of pilots in the coming years
Check out how many CPLs were issued in Australia last year.

[The Professor]

"Dixon was reknowned for removing commercial passengers so he could sit in his favourite seat."

Surely this will lead to the downfall of QF.

"Dixon forgot he was an employee."

No, was CEO. And a very good one.

"Professor, that senior S/O may indeed be making that much, but that is still less than the F/O's that other airlines use to do the same job."

Actually, you will find F/O's at many competitor airlines earning less than this and in many cases, considerably less. You will also find captains at SOME airlines earning less than this flying similar aircraft. It is a huge disparity when you factor in the lack of flexibility of being an S/O at QF, considering they cannot act as F/O if required.

"The average S/O is in the hole for $100,000..or his parents are."

The market does not take this into account when determining salary. The business does not care if you financed your training at great cost or you were trained at tax payer expense in the RAAF.

"They are entitled to their renumeration."

And they are.

"Its what the market supports."

No, employees at incumbents like QF do not get paid in accordance with current market forces. They are the result of decades of industrial fat creating barriers to market forces. If QF were to re launch themselves next week with a clean sheet of paper, do you think they would be offering the pay and conditions currently being enjoyed? Vaustralia is subject to the same market forces as QF and yet they do not need to offer the same income levels as QF. Why is this?

[virgindriver]

take home pay can exceed $180,000 per annum for a senior S/O

Sorry professor but I think you mean total income including allowances. I don't think there would be many captains with 180k "take home pay" and I am certainly not one of them.:rolleyes:

[breakfastburrito]

nice try professor If QF were to re launch themselves next week with a clean sheet of paper, do you think they would be offering the pay and conditions currently being enjoyed? Vaustralia is subject to the same market forces as QF and yet they do not need to offer the same income levels as QF. Why is this?Depends on how many planes your new clean sheet airline intends to fly simultaneously.
6 aircraft = vaustralia rates
100 aircraft = vaustralia +++

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

professor lets compare LAME pays between Virgin/Jestar and Qantas,starting wage at Virgin and Jetstar is approx $95k Qantas is about $83 k p/a with shift loadings

[noip]

Professor,

"No, was CEO. And a very good one"


please ....... The phrase "full of ****" comes to mind, however I'm too polite to think that.

sigh ..

N

[Transition Layer]

The Professor, Ken Borough et al,

What sort of ridiculous industry do we work in where people are critical of others for earning $X amount of money. Should we not all be striving for the same conditions as the "top earners". I feel like I've written something like this on pprune before so I'm probably better off banging my head against the wall but here goes anyway.

Just as an example, can you imagine an accountant working for a large accounting firm finding out that a co-worker with the exact same qualifications in another office was earning more. He/she wouldn't be trying to bring the other's salary DOWN to their level but rather bring his/hers UP to the same level.

Is this just the good old Australian tall poppy syndrome at its worst?

P.S. FWIW, $180k (which would be a small minority of S/Os) would be including allowances and 9% super and actual gross income without those two add-ons would be closer to $145k.

[MrWooby]

The annual pay for QF SO depends on what super division he/she is in. In Division 3 the super amount isn't included in gross income, whereas in div 6 super is included in gross income.

As an example, SO with 8+ years and about a 50/50 mix of european and US flights will make around $160,000 including allowances.

Div 3 pilot will have gross income of $160,000 with a notional $17000 (approx) paid into defined benefit super fund.

Div 6 pilot would show gross income of $177,000 on group certificate, this being salary and allowances of $160,000 plus super (13.5% x hourly rate x 1102 (hours flown))

[blackguard]

You are light on information and heavy on assertions.Just because you say Dixon was a good CEO doesnt mean he was.A CEO who feels he has the right to usurp his customers for a seat has lost sight of just who and what he is.
Dixon created enormous executive wealth and had an enormous sense of entitlement.The APA comes to mind.Dixon and his breed were allowed to prosper over the last ten years.To a very large extent they are responsible for the mess we now find ouselves in.
Privatize the profit and socialize the losses.
The taxpayers will pay for this mess....as usual

[The Professor]

Virgin driver

“Sorry professor but I think you mean total income including allowances.” Correct, I am referring to the cost to the company.

Breakfast,

My hypothetical question was assuming a re-launch of an already existing airline. The TESNA example, in simple terms.

NOIP,

QF, under Dixon’s stewardship, has been one of the most profitable airlines in the world. He was not employed to win friends.

Transition,

“Should we not all be striving for . . . . “

You can strive for whatever you like. The market will pay what the market feels is necessary to attract the labor needed for the job. Once those barriers to genuine competition within the labor market have been removed, there will be massive change to the way QF mainline aircraft are crewed.

Blackgaurd,

“The taxpayers will pay for this mess....as usual”

Exactly what mess will be cleaned up by the taxpayers

[noip]

professor .... I'm sure you could paint a more rosy picture, however .....

Have you considered that if our immediate former CEO had had his way, QF would in all probability now be bankrupt and/or re-nationalised (hey, the government is handing out money and a few more billion wouldn't be noticed) ...

Jetstar may well no longer exist and its employees trashed (its aircraft all back with their owners), together with the other QF job losses. Of course all new aircraft orders and anything half valuable would have been sold off as well.

Domestic airfares (at the least) would be considerably more expensive than now.

Some CEO.


Rgds

N

(if you are wondering ..... think APA)

[blackguard]

The international economic meltdown that has seen corporations put their hands out ot governments for salvation......taxpayer dollars.
This Mess has seen the Qantas share price plummet to $1.78.
Dixon was no genius....he just reduced costs and postponed re investment.
This resulted in a clapped out fleet that required enormous maintenance at a time when the E and M employees were negotiating a pay rise.They got what they required and Dixons tenure ended prematurely.
As the title of this thread suggests Dixon effectively trashed the brand.
The Professor...the myopic quasi academic defending the indefensible

[busdriver007]

Professor,

Obviously your suedo-name describes your personality. Self-righteous and from your own admission a fountain of knowledge.

Most Airlines use world's best practice of 2 Captains and 2 First Officers and compared to most first-world airlines QF sit in the middle(around 47%-crew costs USD). Doesn't mean that this will stay given the current climate.

Qantas has been ruled by a arrogant, pig headed attitude that has damaged the brand to who knows what extent (hope it is not terminal). Managements view seems to be the "passengers will come cause we are Qantas". Well that attitude does not work in a competitive world and once you lose passengers to the Emirates, Etihad and Singapores of the world they ain't coming back. Towards the end of Dixon's career he became immune from criticism and like Howard and Mugabe got wound up in self-cogratulation and stayed too long.

The problem the airline has is that it has focussed on the low-cost model that requires high load-factors to break even and as I said expects the passengers just to turn up and pay full fare and sit next to the hero bragging about his cheap ticket that he bought through the Jetstar website.

The issue now is who will survive the rout. Whoever does and comes out the other side will grow but the attitude at QF will have to change.

:ugh:

[Sunfish]

The CEO's job is not to produce short term profits, which is relatively easy to do for quite a few years by raping the company and its customers - which is Dixon's business model.

The CEO's job, as taught to me by Exxon/Mobil is to maximise the value of the company in the long term.

[Captain Marvel]

I'm no accountant, but wonder if QFs aging fleet is a blessing in disguise. They can rapidly reduce capacity in response to declining passenger demand by parking these older aircraft with less shock to the balance sheet or profit statement.

If they parked newly financed or leased aircraft then the cost would likely be significant.

Just a thought that may keep them in the black.

[mrpaxing]

acknowlegded by some of the curretn excecs. "the brand has been damaged"

[mrpaxing]

and the brand has been damaged as acknowlegded by some of the current excecs. there are only a couple of reasons left why customers choose to fly QF. it will take some time to change the image. what i dont get is why the likes of JB,LG and some otheres are still employed?:confused: they should have been out the door as soon as AJ took over.:{

[capt.cynical]

QF share price hit a new low, early this afternoon !!

$1.685 :oh::uhoh:

[blackguard]

Have just received the Qantas share offer of $1.85.
Think I will pass.

[Tidbinbilla]

Huh! You too :}

[capt.cynical]

Closed @ $1.675 :yuk:

[struggling]

Not quite!

Those who take up the retail offer will pay the lower of either the institutional price of $1.85, or the average weighted price during the 5 trading days up to and including 13 Mar and will pay no brokerage to boot.

Real shame that using salary sacrifice to make available the marginal tax advantage arising from using pre tax dollars isn't going to be available though.

Reliably informed that setting up the required employee trust has to be resurrected after some clown knocked it over out of spite. :{

[Bad Hat Harry]

You could always borrow the money and claim the interest.
Negative gearing just like property

[lowerlobe]

You could always borrow the money and claim the interest
.....What a brilliant idea ..

Borrowing money on the assumption that the market won't fall any further .....

Yep,no one's lost their house with a plan like that.....

You should be a financial advisor........;)

A good friend of mine who is a Capt with QF once told me that the best advice he could give me was to never take financial advice from a pilot....looks like he was right....

[twiggs]

A good friend of mine who is a Capt with QF once told me that the best advice he could give me was to never take financial advice from a pilot....looks like he was right....

As opposed to taking financial advice from flight attendants, hey lobe?;)

[Bad Hat Harry]

Losses are off settable against tax payable on realized Capital Gains.
Who said anything about betting the house?
Borrow $5K to buy QF shares and sit on them for ten years.
As usual Lobeless you over react before engaging your prefrontal.
Like most geriatrics.
The market is oversold.
Look at the book value compared with the share price.
Opportunities abound.Even with Qantas

[kotoyebe]

Borrow $5K to buy QF shares and sit on them for ten years.

You mean I might have my job for another 10 years? Yipee! I was worried that it would be well and truly over by then, or at least that the future would all be orange....

[lowerlobe]

As opposed to taking financial advice from flight attendants, hey lobe?
Twiggs....hey I heard you had either gone back to work up in the office in the LHR base....or maybe gone on holidays to Palestine?....but still,your posts make as much sense as usual though...
But since you mentioned it....the best thing I've done recently was to take my money out of the super fund it was in as this mess developed and put it in a cash fund where it has actually increased instead of the other way around like most super funds ....and yes twiggs that was because of advice from a financial advisor who is ex QF cabin Crew....I honestly don't know why the people in the office don't have any faith in the crew they hire....but you are consistent....:p:p:p
Losses are off settable against tax payable on realized Capital Gains.
Why would anyone buy shares in an airline let alone borrow money to buy them...yep Bad Hat Harry you should be working on Wall Street amongst the guys that have caused this mess.
Book value....yeah right:D:D

[blackguard]

By converting to cash you have realized your losses and by now interest rates are so low you are making very little on your investments.
Agree with BHH that there are some great opportunities for buying discounted equities now

[kotoyebe]

Agree with BHH that there are some great opportunities for buying discounted equities now

Blackguard, like I said a few years ago on this subject, I've got a great deal for you on my Telstra 2 shares. I'll sell them to you for say...$5 a share. That's heaps cheaper than I paid for them. You're in the mood to buy..go for it!

[blackguard]

Qantas managment has further trashed the brand by going to the market to raise capital.The shares were trading at around $2.39.Mangement undermined this price by offering shares at a heavily dicounted $1.85.
Why did they need to go the market and why at that price?
When aircraft can cost around $250mil 500mil seems a small amount.
So lower the price to make QF more attractive for a merger or takeover?

[Bad Hat Harry]

Anyone foolish enough to buy Telstra must be tempted by QF

[lowerlobe]

By converting to cash you have realized your losses and by now interest rates are so low you are making very little on your investments.
...what losses Blackguard...My super figure has increased and how many super funds can even say they have held their ground when most have lost around 25% at least.

Certainly,interest rates are low now but it's still at present than investing in a market still jittery....my money is still making money not going backwards....

I go along with kotoyebe....if you think there are lots of opportunities then go for it....and buy Telstra 2 from him as well as QF but hang on why not Virgin Blue as well....and while we're at it I'm sure you could find someone who will still sell you shares in Ansett too.......as the saying goes there's one born every minute.

[blackguard]

Il Duce has attended a couple of Clause 11 cases in the Industrial Relations Commission and by all accounts he is unimpressed.
Many higher up have been been unimpressed by Cabin Services for some time.
Service on board the A380 is also under review
Expect the Broom to go through Cabin Services in the next few months.
The black widow to go.... along with some of her cohorts and the Fat Controller to go back to airports.
But.....will they be replaced by someone better.....or someone worse?
Can it get worse?

[stubby jumbo]

Toddled off to the Road show today like a good little vegemite !

Guess what.. ....the whole chicken little, the sky is falling down routine that the previous CEO would trot out ad-nauseum has been dropped.:D

The Leprochaun was relatively upbeat, jovial and did not bore us with "the future is Orange" saga.

Sure, when we got to the global financial stuff the mood was more sobering, BUT this guy seems genuine and obviously considers the staff at QF are more than "something we just have to put up with"!

So far so good AJ.

I might even become ENGAGED if things keep heading this way.:eek:

The enema has also cleared out the EGM of People -gone this Friday. :ok:
My only issue now is that the new Coca Cola kid has a title of EGM-HR.

Is this name change for the sole reason that the former EGM is now eligible(legally) to score a redundancy ??????:=:ugh::hmm:

[jet.jackson]

Got into the lift to sign on at 13.30.Held the lift door open for this middle aged women.Next thing I know she has reached over and started straightening my tie babbling on about image.Her breathe indicated a little too much giggle juice during lunch.
Talk about image.A middle aged woman half tanked at 1.30 in the day is not a good look.
The invasion of my personal space and fiddling with my tie was not acceptable.
Do that on the aircraft and it would be three concurrent clause 11s.
Hypocrisy.We go to work with a couple under the belt and we are history.
They get splashed at lunchtime and its ok.
Should have been quicker and had her tested

[jungle juice]

Do that on the aircraft and it would be three concurrent clause 11s.
You wouldn't even have to wait for the aircraft.

If you leant across and straightened her collar while talking about image,she would have had you for sexual harassment and if you suggested that she might have been drinking you would be lucky if they ONLY took your staff travel away.

[blackguard]

This means 2 things:
She has a problem ...obvious
She knows she can get away with it..a bigger problem

[kellykelpie]

Sounds like the lady was just being friendly.

[blackguard]

That sort of "friendly" in Qantas will get get you dismissed and sued.
Particularly if you are under the weather.

[roamingwolf]

Sounds like the lady was just being friendly.
It's a laugh that a woman can do something like this but if a guy does it all hell breaks loose.

Boys and Girls
this is another example (number 6 million) of do as I say and not as I do.

Their idea of friendly is smiling at you as they hand you a clause 11

[kellykelpie]

I think you are being a bit sensitive boys.

[lowerlobe]

I think you are being a bit sensitive boys.
That sounds like something a woman would say but as roaming said if the shoe was on the other foot it would be a different story......

Kelly...it might be a bit different in J* but personal space is exactly that and what would you do in a lift if a middle aged guy with booze on his breath leant over and adjusted your collar and said something about appearance.....

[kellykelpie]

what would you do in a lift if a middle aged guy with booze on his breath leant over and adjusted your collar and said something about appearance.....


I would feel a little uncomfortable as I'm a bloke. As for things "being a bit different in Jetstar" - we are all Australians right?

[blackguard]

QF Cabin Services Managment is out of balance.....not one "bloke" in the hierarchy.This why an under the weather middle age woman can invade the personal space of a male F/A.As has been mentioned if a middle aged bloke did that to a woman all hell would break loose.
At Qantas equality is gender specific.
95% of all Clause 11s have been applied to males with over 20 years service and in Division 1 or 2 Superannuation.Fit into this demographic and you are a target.
Lets not hear any rubbish about chauvinistic dinosaurs.
Here in Qantas we have reverse chauvinism...the Hags and handbags rule the roost...again equality is gender specific

[Tidbinbilla]

This is about the trashing of QF - not what seems to be another cabin crew bitch fest.

Please get back on topic.:hmm:

[lowerlobe]

Tidbinbilla...
In all fairness the example of which we were talking is indicative of the demise of the brand.We are trying to point out the double standards which manifest themselves everytime we have dealings with the office...

The mechanics of that office are symptomatic of what is happening elsewhere in the company and this pervades through to the brand....and it's perception to the public.These issues are at the heart of the problem the company faces.

Although I thought kellykelpie was/is a woman given the nickname he/she is apparently a pilot with either Jetstar Asia or Jetstar and so this is not another Cabin Crew bitch fest as you put it.....but I can understand your angst and appreciate your patience.

Thanks

[Bad Hat Harry]

The public trashing of the brand and the internal disengagement of staff have the same root cause:Management.
Cabin Services is run by incompetent females and their handbags.There is very little male influence.Indeed the women running the show see a certain male demographic as supporting a particular type of negative culture.A culture they continue to deride.It was this culture that made Qantas what it was in the 70s and 80s.
The public perception declines as this culture is eroded.If this continues Qantas will provide little more than a winged bus service.
Talk to any QF pilot and you will hear of women who are unqualified running flight ops.
Address the imbalance Mr. Joyce

[capt.cynical]

Just remember when it all started, "1995" the arrival of the "BOWTIE" with his "handbags"
and it has gone downhill since then. :E:ugh:

Pilots had 89 CC had 95 :{

Would the last straight male CC at QF L/H please pick up a 6 pack and his fishing rod whilst kicking a "CAT" on his way out. :ok::rolleyes::sad:

[lowerlobe]

I find it funny that if you wear lipstick and/or take part in the annual Oxford street parade you are welcome but if you're male,straight,married and have kids you are almost treated as if you're a leper....the lipstick/handbag mafia is in control.

It used to be homophobia that was obvious in society but with this group it is "straightphobia" that is the problem.....

[stubby jumbo]

Couldn't agree more 'lobe.

Bring back the daze of Capt Tyrell and the boyz club.

Roger Burrell, Ed Denny et al.....now that was a team.

Agree....The brand has been trashed since the 'do gooders " have got in and demanded things like ...THE CARDINAL RULES (what clown dreampt this one up???):ugh:
Nah, lets get back to the days when it was ok to throw a blanket over an offensive drunk pax and remind them that they are flying on "the spirit of Australia":D

[argus.moon]

"heterophobia"
Seeing heterosexuals as threatening.
Feminism gone nuts.The Domestic mentality has invaded longhaul.
From an industrial viewpoint women in the workforce are more compliant and less inclined to industrial action
There are consequences:the brand gets trashed because of too many muffin mornings

[the rim]

cox by name and you know what....he also came up with the four pillars......he has to go soon ...i also caught the AJ roadshow in bne at the big house and thought AJ was on the right track about reviving a sence of pride in the workers not once did he say "the business" he actually called it Qantas and an airline ...hope he can keep it up ....that sort of talk i mean not the other ...it all turned to sh#t at question time when the ame's got into him about their EBA and he drew the hard line hopefully they will be able to make a deal next week and the a330 work will go to bne

[DEFCON4]

The head of QF HR (aka the poison dwarf)has gone.Now would be an opportune time to revamp,rename or remove the HR Department.Much of the disengagement of staff has stemmed from here.
AJ is making the right noises but it needs to be backed up by action.
The Cabin Services Department needs a new head.The Black Widow has been there way too long.The place is stale

[gavpav]

I hope AJ can fix up HR and IR within QF as it has always puzzled me over the years that we usually attract very talented people when we advertise for a position and then within a year or two most employee"s are disengaged. Respect, dignity and trust don't cost an airline much but can make the difference when you want to be the worlds best airline. I met KB in BNE at a roadshow in 2007 and pleaded the case for my home port which were losing flights to JQ at the time (We will never canibalise mainline QF ops !) . He said he didnt want loyality from staff, just a great bottom line. He shot a colleague and myself down in flames when we mentioned all of our achievements and cost savings in our port. We left that roadshow extremely motivated (not) and wondered where QF found this GRINCH! Most people I work with do a great job and are aware of the doom and gloom and costs. We all were very proud to wear the uniform and tell people where we worked but I am sure that that feeling has been eroded by mismanagement for a great proportion of staff.. I think the GD method of rewarding excessively your Execs while telling the staff that the sky is falling and that THEY cost to much didnt work for his 8 years. This is the person who ruined the brand -GD-very happy for you to leave Geoff!:ok:
Lets hope there is a genuine change at the top or it will just be more of the same!
I feel better now- Time for a swim!

[hewlett]

I remember your case being well put and controlled under the circumstances. A lesser man may have turned violent given the arrogance shown by KB though I fear your fate was sealed well before being offered the chance to bid for the JQ contract.I've not seen a better job of disengaging staff than what this so called manager did at that roadshow,so much so, that it still comes up in the lunchroom to this day.

[MrWooby]

Bad Hat Harry, if you're talking about a certain FEMALE deputy fleet manager, you will actually find most pilots regard her as a competent and compassionate manager. Apart from her first MEMO/FSO in which the wording could have been a little better, her performance in the area of managing the administrative side of the fleet is excellent. She tends to stay away from the operational aspects.

[kotoyebe]

given the arrogance shown by KB

He certainly repeated the BNE performance when he was at the SYD roadshow I attended. I have never met such an arrogant, self absorbed, uncaring "manager" in my whole working life. I vowed never to attend another roadshow. And I haven't. I trully wouldn't pi** on him, if he was on fire.

[Qantas 787]

Don't get me started on KB - not only did put me to sleep a number of times, his attempt to answer questions was laughable. You can criticise Geoff all you want but at least he made the roadshows interesting and actually answered most of the questions with an honest answer. How he got paid so much in his time over his tenture is more criminal than any bonus Geoff got.

[QFinsider]

all of em with the exception of the former DFO were little men..


Tall of course they were...
With top hats on they walk under a door...
So solidly built, they run around to get wet in the shower...

That is the Q paradigm....:suspect:

[dizzylizzy]

Deidry Chambers what a coincidence!

[Wizofoz]

Qantas rolls out new seat allocation system that puts budget passengers and early-birders between a rock and an aisle.
My good friend Cheryl over at molt:n learned on a recent flight to the US that the flying kangaroo has quietly instituted a new seat allocation program that is both deplorable from a passenger experience perspective, and fair in a "Hey, ya pay for what ya get" kind of way.

The new system took effect in October apparently, and since then, your seat allocation has been based entirely on the fare you've paid for your ticket. Show up at the airport as early as you like, friends, but if your flight was a bargain you can bet your bottom dollar you'll be given a middle seat.

Complicated algorithms pre-assign seats so hot-deal holders get slotted in the middle, and premium prices earn priority seating. Check-in staff claim they aren't able to override the system, which was put into place because of abuse dished out by passengers upon learning they got the short straw.

While the system might be deemed "more fair" by some, it exempts Qantas staff from any customer service responsibility when it comes to seat allocation. The check-in clerk might be sympathetic if you're two-metres high and show up four hours early for your flight, but they won't be able to help you.

What do you think of this new system? Is it fair to get what you pay for, or do you think passengers arriving early deserve some sort of priority?



Source Ninemsn

This ws tried by Ansett with "Discount Ecconomy' class. Two Pax sitting next to each other. One gets a hot breakfast, one gets a roll and an OJ.

It was quickley dropped as it caused near riots.

Graheme said afterwards, "We should have realised that discout passengers are entitled to the same service. they pay for their cheaper seats with more restrictive conditions of travel".

To advertise cheap fares as promotions, extra revenue raisers or to fille mpty seats, then treat people who respond as FOURTH class passengers is bead business and tantamount to false advertising.

[lowerlobe]

In this regard the airlines have become just like Banks....

It was once said that with the banks if you want to be recognised and have any say at all then take your money out of your accounts and buy shares in the bank instead....However,to buy shares in an airline is well....risky at best.

We have all known that to an airline the customer...sorry passenger is nothing more than a means to an end and the cheaper the fare the cheaper the attitude the airline has.

We've seen this with J* passengers arriving late at check in...even by only a few minutes and when there is a reasonable excuse and not just "we were running late because we slept in" explanation.We are living in an era where you get what you pay for....

Perhaps this will mean not only the premium economy zone as distinct to economy but a cut price/going for a song seating zone as well.

This way the passenger knows what they are in for....hang on.....Isn't that called Jetstar ...:E

[Garry1946]

What an absolute oxygen thief!

[Wonderworld]

Qantas rolls out new seat allocation system that puts budget passengers and early-birders between a rock and an aisle.
My good friend Cheryl over at molt:n learned on a recent flight to the US that the flying kangaroo has quietly instituted a new seat allocation program that is both deplorable from a passenger experience perspective, and fair in a "Hey, ya pay for what ya get" kind of way.

The new system took effect in October apparently, and since then, your seat allocation has been based entirely on the fare you've paid for your ticket. Show up at the airport as early as you like, friends, but if your flight was a bargain you can bet your bottom dollar you'll be given a middle seat.

Complicated algorithms pre-assign seats so hot-deal holders get slotted in the middle, and premium prices earn priority seating. Check-in staff claim they aren't able to override the system, which was put into place because of abuse dished out by passengers upon learning they got the short straw.

While the system might be deemed "more fair" by some, it exempts Qantas staff from any customer service responsibility when it comes to seat allocation. The check-in clerk might be sympathetic if you're two-metres high and show up four hours early for your flight, but they won't be able to help you.

What do you think of this new system? Is it fair to get what you pay for, or do you think passengers arriving early deserve some sort of priority?

That isn't the full story on how CM or Customer Managements works. While it's true the fare you pay has some impact on where you sit the system also take into account each paxs "worth" to the airline a a whole. So if you happen to be a super duper platinum who for some reason has grabbed an internet cheapy to go from SYD to MEL but also spends a big amount with QF say for business travel then you will get a good seat according to the seating preference in your profile.

If you are someone who travel infrequently and has no particular loyalty to QF then your choice of seats will be limited. It is true that check in agents cant really override the seats that show available for allocation.

So essentially the new system looks after the most valuable pax first, which really isn't a bad idea at all. Hope that helps clear some mis-information up about the system.

Cheers