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NineInchSnail
2nd Oct 2008, 16:36
Hey folks,

My company SOP to fly the SE ILS on the A320 is to select flaps 1, flaps 2 then 1 dot below the glideslope select flaps 3 THEN when established on the GS, select the landing gear down.

IS that standard at other airlines? I just talked to an Airbus instructor today who doesn't work at my airline who told me that the Airbus SOP is to lower the gear first right before GS interception THEN flaps 3 on theSE approach

Anybody could tell me if my airline procedures are wrong or correct?

Thank you

tom775257
2nd Oct 2008, 16:43
Personally on a SE ILS I would fly a decelerated approach, at least adding gear, flap3, full on the glide.

If the ILS platform is quite low we might use Flap2 one dot below, gear down a G/s *, Flap 3 Flap full.

Flying a Non-precision approach I use 7,5,3,2,0nm on a single engine approach so... 7 miles till FAF Flaps 1, 5nm flap2, 3nm gear down, 2nm flap 3, then once descending I would go flap full (I remember that through being taught "I would rather be flying a 75 but I am flying a 320 (75320) OR two engined stablised approach 75321.)


Hope this makes some sense. Our SOPs are not that restricting.

Tom.

flyingins
3rd Oct 2008, 00:13
Obviously always fly the aeroplane the way your company wants to to. They are paying your wages, after all!

Having said that, an OEI ILS is the same as a 2EO ILS, except the "Straight-In Approach OEI" Checklist in the FCOM/QRH requires you to delay the selection of CONF FULL until you're established on the final approach path.

If you elect to do a CONF 3 landing, CONF 2, then Gear Down, then CONF 3 when established on the final approach path is the orthodox technique. This technique also avoids unneccesary "L/G NOT DOWN" CRC and Master Warning.

Bearcat
4th Oct 2008, 11:39
i detest airlines that reinvent the wheel....airbus recommend s/e ils full flap....if there is an intermediate level off there is a check re consideration of using flap 3.

this bull of selecting f3 then putting the gear down is using non std techniques in a non normal enviornemnt..........is an accident already on the way.

Airbus_a321
5th Oct 2008, 14:27
well said, bearcat.

PPRuNeUser0183
5th Oct 2008, 21:57
Sounds like a confusion between the stragegy for single engine, and for other abnormal situations resulting in loss of auto-trim. In this case only, flap 3 before gear down means that the aircraft is more in trim at the point of loss of auto-trim.

I think that Flap 3 approach is nearly always more preferable with OEI.

Airbus_a321
6th Oct 2008, 09:56
flap 3 before gear down means that the aircraft is more in trim at the point of loss of auto-trim.I think that Flap 3 approach is nearly always more preferable:ugh:
Don't think too much, just follow AIRBUS SOP and not your s... POP = personal operating procedure.:mad:
Too much people try to invent Airbus flying again. Especially those, who never felt comfortable on this nice plane and especially those who do not have that much experience on the Bus.
Dont be afraid flying the BUS and dont THINK about your personal modified non-standard-procedure.
Next time configure your Bus just the normal (AIRBUS)way. And you will see, not THINK, even with inop autotrim no big deal. And the advantage: in case you have the non-standard (e.g. the autotrim inop) you do not add another non-standard on top, which might bring you in not a nice corner. (see also above: bearcat)

SIDSTAR
7th Oct 2008, 18:12
We insist that all single-engine approaches are flown fully stabilised on hitting the glide/ final descent point.

This means (A320) flaps 3 or FULL (we dont specify) at G/S* thus preventing a big buildup of thrust just when you dont want it - rudder trim etc out of kilter!

You'll hopefully never have to do one for real so practice what's easiest or what the SOP says if it's mandatory.

Where it's optional it depends on what your normal 2 eng ILS procedure is. The advantage of flying it as per a two engine ILS is that the pitch attitude (picture ) is the same - only the thrust required is different. Advantage of F3 is less thrust reqd (about -5%) and in easier G/A. Just remember that if doing F3 app then the G/A is immediately to F2.

Dream Land
8th Oct 2008, 11:07
Always love the low time pilots blindly following SOP by being fully configured well prior to th FAF, engine at max thrust, aircraft still unable to hold Vref, you call this stable? :ugh:

Meek
10th Oct 2008, 09:26
Unfortunately Airbus SOPs are only interested in covering their butts in case of insurance claims or investigations. They do not offer the most efficient way to fly this beautiful plane.

Hence we are required to start the Apu every time in case of a tailpipe fire, we have an ECAM to switch on brake fans even if TO is not for another 2 hours.

Conf 3 landings reduce the stable fuel flow from 38 to 33 kg/minute for 1 and 1/2 minutes for an increase of 3 knots. Added up for 6 to 8 sectors per day across a fleet of say 30 aircraft 365days per year, and as part of a fully comprehensive fuel saving strategy , this starts to add up.

Unfortunately Airbus will not put out a recomendation as they would be liable in case of a tail strike.

We Pilots use over a million litrs of fuel EACH per annum so we must be more responsable. (750hrs*2300kg/hr*1.25 divided by 2 [CM1 and CM2])

If this means a carefull considered modification [by committee] of ultra conservative recommendations made by Airbus then so be it.

I do however agree that every Tom Dick and Harry should not be using his/her own POPs

aguadalte
10th Oct 2008, 19:31
Hi,
My company has made several A320 flight simulator videos, to show how SOPs should be flown in case of emergency.
These were made by Captain Bahia dos Santos, TAP Portugal A320 Fleet Manager at that time.
I have learned a lot with them, and I still use them, even flying A330/340, now.
Those videos have been leaked to the Tube, so I'll leave you here one of the links:
YouTube - A320 2 engine failure after takeoff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4riBeS7GEk&feature=related)
Remember that, the way they "act" was meant to be for scholastic purposes. You'll have to browse youtube looking for the whole set of videos in order to find the ones you're interested to see. Hope you enjoy.
Have fun,
Victor;)

40KTSOFFOG
10th Oct 2008, 20:58
How many single engine approaches are you thinking of flying. If I have one in my career I will be happy.
If/when I have one I will attempt to fly it 'by the book'.

Dream Land
11th Oct 2008, 10:35
Unfortunately Airbus will not put out a recomendation as they would be liable in case of a tail strike by Meek Good point, especially on the A321!

dartagnan
11th Oct 2008, 11:23
look at here
KISS principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle)

aguadalte
11th Oct 2008, 15:00
All FBW Airbuses are certified to land Flap 3 and Full. The way you handle your aircraft is your responsibility. You can't ask for someone else to cover the way you fly your aircraft. You can tail strike any of those aircrafts with poor handling.
If you intend to fly them well, the least you can do, is to follow A.I. SOPS. Changing Airbus Industrie SOPS is trying to invent the "wheel" again...
VF

Dream Land
12th Oct 2008, 04:19
I'm afraid Airbus didn't invent flying, common sense still must be used. Like one of the posters eluded to earlier, the lawyers are involved in many instances now that we have 300 hour pilots flying them.

gearpins
13th Oct 2008, 02:52
flying level on S.E. approaching the glide from below..I am intrested in controlablity.that is, with every config change, there is a corresponding thrust change which leads to change in rudder input.the largest change in speed (read thrust) is from S to Fspeed.~50to60 knots.I would select flap 2 just as g/s comes alive.power would spool back to idle.hardly any rudder required. can select flap 3 at 1 dot.At g/s* L/g down (by this time you are also pitching down power change is quite easily managable) and in quick sucession flap full. as the power increases apply rudder ....
SOP,FCOM,FCTM,..ETC are books to help us acheive a safe flight condition....CONTROLABILITY (remember FLY,...,...).as long as we dont miss the woods for the trees we can all find our way to the local pub after the flight..cheers :)