Aerobatic Pilot

[Al Badman]

Hi all,

I'm a helicopter pilot with zero hours fixed wing experience who has finally been turned from the dark side!

On Monday this week I had my first couple of lessons with Ultimate High and took, what I hope will be, the first steps towards competition aerobatics.

If you would like to hear more about my first lesson, or would like to keep up to date with my journey, then please visit my website at Aerobatic Pilot (http://www.aerobaticpilot.co.uk).

Al

[Al Badman]

This post took a while to appear so I'm just bringing it back to the top.

Al

[Lister Noble]

I see you have a rotary licence.
What is involved in getting your fixed wing licence ,how many hours minimum before you are able to complete the skills test and fly on your own PPL fixed wing licence.
I assume you will need to do this before doing any competition?
Lister

[stiknruda]

The last time I competed (was 100% conversant with the BAeA rules) there was no requirement to hold a licence!

A non-licence holder could compete with a safety pilot but would be deemed "hors de combat". I frequently competed against Harry, a delightful octagenarian who fell into this category!

To fly solo at a comp one does need to demonstrate proficiency to a suitably appointed person prior to the comp and not within 5 miles of the comp venue!

[Zulu Alpha]

Stik is correct, you don't need a valid licence to compete as you can have a safety pilot with you. However you will be competing H/C and while you will be given your marks from the judges, you won't be given a place in the final results. Don't know of anyone who is H/C at any level higher than std.

A B, you didn't say which aircraft you are going to use after you finish training at UH.

ZA

ps, the dates in your blog for the competition are 2008 ones (not 2009 ). The 2009 will have less events than 2008 as the World Unlimited Aerobatics Championship is in the UK at Silverstone in Aug 2009. Thus the calendar will be emptied of any national events for about 4 weeks. Helpers will be welcome.

[Al Badman]

Lister, I'll need to do 35 hours minimum of which a certain amount must be solo, and a certain amount nav. I'm not sure of the details off hand, but they're in Lasors.

ZA, regarding the calendar I was just taking a guess at dates to give people some idea of which competitions I might enter.

Concerning the aeroplane, I'm not sure yet, it'll depend on finances. Most likely I'll either be renting one by the hour, or looking to buy a share. Hopefully an Extra, or a Pitts. If you have any ideas I'[d be very grateful.

Al

[Zulu Alpha]

Renting might be difficult. Many companies will not allow solo rental and therefore you are stuck with the H/C restriction in competition.

Almost all the pilots who compete are owners or own a share. The choice of aircraft probably dependant on your budget. If you have a few £100K then an Extra 300 would be a good choice.
The cheapest is probably a Pitts, but unless you have an S1T then you are going to be aircraft limited at intermediate and certainly Advanced. The monoplanes such as one design, Laser and Extra 230's can perform well at intermediate and advanced, but are more expensive.

This will give you an idea of prices.

Aircraft+Equipment-for-sale (http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/aircraft+eqpt-for-sale.htm)

ZA

[eharding]

There are a few Pitts S2s available for rental - G-ODDS at Waltham for example (heir to G-STUA, possibly the hardest working airframe in British aerobatics in its day...).

From an outright ownership or share perspective, something on an LAA Permit is definately the way to go at Standard and Intermediate - Pitts S1, Laser, Extra 230, One Design etc. Our local Extra 230 took the Advanced Championship for the second time in a row this year, but the mainstream fare at that level and above have 6-pots and carbon wings, not until recently something the PFA/LAA would deal with, but I understand that an Edge-540 on an LAA Permit is on the cards. The Laser is a fine alternative to the Extra 230, but has on occasions shown an unexplained tendency for the oil filler cap and dipstick to come loose while performing inverted checks in the box at National championships, covering the aircraft and pilot in oil and embarrassment, and such events can take literally years to live down.

Regardless, the route to competition success lies through combining Precision with Clarity, and in order to do that you need to practice. A lot; and in combination with practice is the requirement for critique from the ground - so your best bet would be to find an share at a price where there is money left over for a significant amount of practice time, in an environment where there are a significant number of other competition pilots -at all levels - willing to reciprocate with ground critique.

Anyway....welcome to the Dark Side - where the term 'autorotation' has an entirely more positive connotation (generally).

[BackPacker]

What's the opinion of the experts here on the Mudry CAP 10-B (with or without the -C wing)? It looks like it's a good plane to bridge the gap between the rather basic R2160 (which I fly now) / Fuji / Decathon on one end, and the CAP23/Pitts/Extras/Edges on the other side.

There are a few for sale at planecheck at what seems to be reasonable prices and I've seen some videos at youtube that are downright amazing.

[eharding]

The Cap-10 is a lovely bit of kit, but sadly for the -B this AD...

EASA Airworthiness Directives Publishing Tool (http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/08-098)

...is a significant issue.

Cap-10s have had a lot of success at Standard in the UK for the past few years.

[BackPacker]

eharding, you wouldn't know the approximate cost in parts & labor for a conversion to the -C wing on a CAP 10B, would you?

[eharding]

About the cost of a mint Pitts S1T, from what I recall - but I'm sure Apex would give you a definitive quote.

[Zulu Alpha]

Even with the carbon fiber in the wing, the CAP 10 B or C would struggle to be competitive at intermediate today as there has been some category creep and what was sufficient 10 years ago isn't today. It only has a fixed pitch prop and being two seats side by side has more drag than many single seaters.

Interestingly, the CAP10C, which is often referred to as having a carbon fiber main spar, is actually still a wooden spar but with some carbon fiber on part of the top and bottom of the spar to add a bit of strength. I wonder if a 10B spar can be converted to a 10C by just adding the carbon fiber.

The Laser is a fine alternative to the Extra 230, but has on occasions shown an unexplained tendency for the oil filler cap and dipstick to come loose while performing inverted checks in the box at National championships, covering the aircraft and pilot in oil and embarrassment, and such events can take literally years to live down.

No embarrassment at winning the competition after a bit of wiping up though!!...

ZA

[eharding]

I have to say that my Cap-10 experience was that it was hardly a drag-queen - more slippery than a greased woozle when trying to slow it down in the circuit - don't forget it isn't blessed with the same chunky wing section we hold dear, nor the option to use the prop as an effective airbrake.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Even with the carbon fiber in the wing, the CAP 10 B or C would struggle to be competitive at intermediate today

I beg to differ! In the right hands, (i.e flown with skill and not relying on the aircraft to do it for you......) the CAP10 is still very competitive at Int level.

In the dim and distant past when I competed, the UK sequences were designed so that a Stampe could do Intermediate. Brian Lecomber even competed at Std level in a Sopwith Camel replica. together with guys in an RF4, an Airtourer, and Tipsy Nipper! All flown with skill and wringing the most out of underpowered and aerodynamically deficient aircraft.

But then it got easier and everyone bought an Extra/Sukhoi and got the pyizes:{

[giloc]

Interestingly, the CAP10C, which is often referred to as having a carbon fiber main spar, is actually still a wooden spar but with some carbon fiber on part of the top and bottom of the spar to add a bit of strength. I wonder if a 10B spar can be converted to a 10C by just adding the carbon fiber.
Actually, the entire spar caps are carbon from tip-to-tip. The spar caps are produced by bonding together a stack of several carbon strips, and shaping them in a huge press to match the dihedral of the wing. The caps are indeed connected by plywood webs and entirely enclosed by wood, but the major load bearing elements are carbon. Apex evaluated the possibilite of a compeletely carbon wing, but found the weight/strength relationship disappointing. The 10C wing design is a very clever fusion of wood and carbon, so no, you can't make one by gluing a few bits of carbon to a B wing! The carbon wing is much stronger than the original wood design, at least 50%. The limit load factors are the same as the original wood wing so the additional strength provides a very significant safety margin, which was one of the main design goals.

...being two seats side by side has more drag than many single seaters.
You have clearly never flown one. The CAP 10 is a slippery aeroplane. The challenge in some sequences is not drag, but lack of thrust at low speed compared to an aeroplane with constant speed propeller.

A CAP10 - B or C - should have no problem flying a sequence designed around the performance level of a Stampe, which is still supposed to be the base aircraft for BAeA intermediate sequences. However, over time competition sequences tend to be designed to match the characteristics of the competing types, regardless of the nominal "base" type. I suspect if there were any Stampes or Cap10s competing at intermediate then the sequences would gradually reflect that.

[Zulu Alpha]

I beg to differ! In the right hands, (i.e flown with skill and not relying on the aircraft to do it for you......) the CAP10 is still very competitive at Int level.

Not sure what you base this on as I haven't seen one at an intermediate competition during the last 4 years. You are correct that the sequence is meant to be able to be flown by a Stampe. However the reality is that without a CS prop and a symetrical wing it is difficult to be competitive (ie come in the top 3 consistently). Yes you can enter and yes, you can get round the sequence but you will be up against quite a number of aircraft like Extras, Lasers, Pitts S1Ts etc and the CAP10 will be at a disadvantage.
Competitions these days seem to have fewer figures, but more difficult ones, so this may be part of the reason why, there has been some category creep.

The CAP10 is a much better tourer than most other aerobatic aircraft, so unless you area real headbanger it is a good compromise. Prices are quite high though.

giloc, Pity about the spar being so different as there are quite a few CAP10B owners out there that are badly affected by the AD on the wing/spar. If there was a moderately priced fix then I suspect it would be popular. The cost of the current fix ie completely changing the wing is probably a lot more than the increase in value after doing it.

ZA

[Bravo73]

Erm, somebody remind me, please - what was this thread actually about? :confused:

[eharding]

Erm, somebody remind me, please - what was this thread actually about?


To summarise: Rotary pilot discovers the delights of the Dark Side, and that fixed wing is a far better prospect in this respect - posts link to slightly gushing website, but we'll forgive him that. Discussion of whether PPL(SEP) is actually required to enter aerobatic competitions. There follows some debate about the merits of various aerobatic types, and some traditional jeering at esteemed members of the competition fraternity by un-esteemed member of same fraternity about legendary balls-ups of old. A bit of verbal sparring over the merits of rather nice Froggy aerobatic tourer. Finally CPL/IR(H) with vibration-induced Attention Deficiency Syndrome stumbles onto thread, but can't make head or tail of it....

[Bravo73]

Or, to be more accurate, eharding (I've been reading the thread from the beginning, BTW):

A new ppruner starts a thread asking for input about his nascent interest, no doubt looking to gain a little 'exposure'. The first 8 posts of the thread are related, directly or indirectly, to this query.

The subsequent 12+ posts (including this one :O) barely relate to the topic at all. In hindsight, shouldn't Backpacker have really started his own thread about the CAP 10? :suspect:

[Airbus Girl]

How many hours do people reckon to go from no aerobatic experience to flying competitions at Standard Level? 150 hours? Is 150 hours aerobatics per year a reasonable figure? Is that what those who currently fly competitions do?

I know the Basic Aeros AOPA course is based on around 10 hours training, but I have no idea what is "the norm" for moving on from that to flying competitions and starting to do it well.

[DB6]

Others will embellish but 150 hours aeros per year is a lot - nice if you can afford it, but out of reach of most I would guess. Probably 5 - 10 hours or so on top of the basic AOPA aeros course will see you put up a decent showing at Basic level BUT it very much depends on how that training is spent. 10 hours at somewhere like White Waltham including some ground critique from an experienced competition pilot is worth 100 hours heaving a C152 around the local area with no guidance, and you could be ready on completing the course with no further training. If you want to enter competitions look at the BAeA website and go from there. Progress to Standard level is not too difficult once you are happy at Basic, but as to doing it well........
Good luck anyway.

[Zulu Alpha]

Difficult to give an answer to the number of hours before entering Standard level competitions. But DB6s answer is about right.

However, I would add that there are beginners competitions and L**p days run by the BAeA. see http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/sites08/LOOP%20Beginners%20Days%202008%20v3.pdf
These are aimed at pilots who have completed the AOPA course. Most people do one or two of these and then go into Standard level.

ZA

[pilgrim flyer]

Hi AG

It took me around 30 hrs from scratch in Pitts S2A to learn basic/standard aeros, how to land the little sod, and then to both compete at Standard level and also become aeros FI.

This was done over a period of around a year.

I now have my own S2A which I train people on. PM me if interested, or email [email protected].

PF

[foxmoth]

Well I have just looked at the web site for the thread starter - no more on it than the first lesson - has he given up, waiting for summer (though we have had some cracking winter days) or just given up on updating his web site?

[will5023]

Backpacker, A good friend of mine is the UK dealer for the Cap10, and has done lots of work on them including the issues mentioned here, and more! If you PM me I'll give you his number, he may have one which he is rebuilding in the pipeline.