First Atlas Air, now it's Polar. Who's next?

[Po Boy]

Wednesday May 16, 5:52 pm Eastern Time
Press Release
Polar Air Cargo Responds to Economic Downturn
LONG BEACH, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 16, 2001--Polar Air Cargo announced that it is implementing cost reductions across the business in response to weak market conditions around the world.

As part of this action, the company is reducing personnel by approximately 10 percent. The reduction-in-force includes a furlough of approximately 24 crewmembers.

"We firmly believe that the economy and the air cargo market will improve. However, in order to respond to the economic downturn, it has become necessary to make personnel and other cost reduction changes for the long-term benefit of the company,'' said Eric M. Dull, chief executive officer.

Polar has sustained a 24-month period of continuous growth in personnel. Today's action is a pre-emptive measure by Polar to right size the business to address the current reduction in air cargo demand.

Polar Air Cargo provides a critical link in the international logistics chain by connecting centers of commerce in Asia, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and the Americas with frequent scheduled B747 freighter services.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contact:

Polar Air Cargo, Long Beach
Kristine Leathers, 562/528-7317
:mad:

[fr8box]

It appears the freight world is in a complete downturn right now. Hope it turns around soon, there are lots of good people hitting the streets. I've seen two articles on the Polar furlough. One stated that they were furloughing 24 crewmembers and the other stated they were furloughing 24 crews. Anyone know the real story and are they expecting more?

[This message has been edited by fr8box (edited 17 May 2001).]

[fr8poodle]

Airborne Express also furloughed 5 pilots
with 14 captain demotions

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Never turn down blow jobs or type ratings

[fr8poodle]

Atlas Air lays off 105

tlas Air Inc. is laying off 105 crew members in response to weakening demand for its aircraft.

The move follows the cargo airline's decision in April to take back two 747 freighters that it had leased to Aerofloral, a financially troubled Miami-based carrier specializing in the Latin American flower trade.

"We were getting vibes that they (Aerofloral) were on the brink. We did not want to have our aircraft where we could not get access if Aerofloral filed for bankruptcy," Fred L. deLeeuw, Atlas's vice president for corporate finance, told a logistics conference May 12. Had that happened, Atlas feared that the freighters might be tied up in a court proceeding. Atlas is trying to place the aircraft with other carriers but has not yet been able to do so, he said.

Atlas, based in Purchase, N.Y., had added staff in anticipation of a significant increase in flying this year, but it no longer expects that to occur.

"We believe it is in the best interest of the company and long-term interest of our employees and shareholders that we act decisively in the face of the current economic downturn," said Richard Shuyler, Atlas's chief executive. "While we hope to see a strengthening in demand as we go into the second half of this year, it is only prudent to take those measures necessary to ensure that we are best-positioned to deal effectively with any prolonged economic weakness."

Shuyler added that Atlas is reviewing all areas of the company's cost structure and that it will take "any necessary additional actions to ensure we remain cost efficient."

Atlas operates a fleet of 37 freighters - all 747s - giving it by far the world's largest fleet of 747 freighters. Besides the two that were formally dedicated to Aerofloral, Atlas also has four that are currently undergoing heavy maintenance and three that it keeps in reserve in order to supply its clients in case of emergency.

Atlas has been enjoying record profits, and in the first quarter earned $14.4 million, excluding the effects of a change in accounting practices, up from $12 million in the same period last year.

Atlas typically supplies its aircraft, along with crew, maintenance and insurance, on a dedicated basis to individual carriers. Its customers, however, pay for fuel, meaning that Atlas has been immune from the rise in fuel prices over the past year. It also gets paid regardless of whether the aircraft are full or empty. But because of the economic slowdown, it has begun exploring other options.

Speaking at the Bear Stearns Transport and Logistics Conference last week, deLeeuw noted that Atlas has begun offering fractional charters, where two carriers can share the charter. In one case, Atlas charters an aircraft to Malaysian Airlines, which flies from Kuala Lumpur to Seoul. At that point, Korean Air takes some of the space on the aircraft for the flight to the United States.



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Never turn down blow jobs or type ratings

[mriya225]

Well, it just goes to show how deeply rooted the lean times have gotten. I got laid off in January (until then, I couldn't even remember the last time I'd heard about somebody getting their pink slip) but I was only contract; I kept thinking, on the way home that day, how desperately grateful I was that I didn't have a spouse and children at home--dependant on my salary.
I knew then that we were in for a tough row to hoe (here, in the States anyway). I reckon we haven't quite bottomed out yet--be grateful you have a job in your chosen profession.

Oh, and, would you like fries with that bit o' homespun wisdom? ;)


------------------
"You did WHAT"?!

[Gillegan]

Just a thought, but don't Atlas and Polar survive almost exclusively as ACMI operators? Seems to me that the bread and butter of ACMI is to carry the surplus freight of the established carriers. When there is a downturn (even slight), there is bound to be less surplus and it seems that ACMI carriers would be the first to go. Even if their costs are less than the carrier who is chartering them, it would be even more expensive to reduce capacity on the mainline and continue to use the ACMI. I suspect that Atlas realised this a while ago when they started to consolidate some of their own freight. I would be curious to see if business is dropping off for the other ACMI carriers and if the trend is greater than for the "conventional" cargo carriers.

[This message has been edited by Gillegan (edited 17 May 2001).]

[dmaco1]

The last I heard was 24 engineers... though I am sure some FO's won't be far behind.

Polar doesn't do a lot of ACMI... some code-share, but a lot of in-house, scheduled routes as well...

[The Guvnor]

Unfortunately, this is proof positive of what I have been saying in other threads. Like it or not, the lean times are back with us again and the greed of some pilot groups/unions does nothing except cause the loss of jobs of themselves and others.

Let's hope sanity prevails - it's better to have a job (even if you don't think you're earning as much as you think you should) than to be the (formerly) highest paid person in the unemployment office.

[fr8poodle]

Not just the acmi freight folks, but also Emery, Ryan, Amerijet and Airborne Express are all furloughing people......this is just the start!!!!!!

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Never turn down blow jobs or type ratings

[Roadtrip]

Guv - It would make any difference if Atlas pilots were paid $200 or $2 per hour. If management thought they didn't absolutely need the guy or they thought they could intimdate the union, he'd be on furlough.

[ironbutt57]

Anyway, doesn't Atlas have a few rather large checks to issue to it's crews as a result of the court deciding against them on this profit-sharing cancellation when atlas went ALPO?

[WhaleDriver]

The checks were paid out on the 15th.

[Airbubba]

DHL has put a new air hub at CVG on hold, the freight dogs are starting to feel the pinch...

"...no layoffs are planned" = time to start looking for a job from my experience <g>.
_____________________________________

Wednesday, May 16, 2001
DHL delays facility

Economy slows airport hub


By James Pilcher
The Cincinnati Enquirer

Citing the economic slowdown, DHL Worldwide Express announced on Tuesday that it was postponing completion of its new $170 million hub operation for 12 months.

Steve White, DHL vice president and general manager of the Cincinnati hub, said the company was not hitting its forecast volumes, forcing it to delay opening the building at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport until June 2003.

“It's all depending on the economy,” Mr. White said. “If it picks up, we may be only looking at three months; and if it doesn't, the delay may be longer.”

DHL, the market leader in international air freight but a minor player in the U.S. overnight market, was planning to triple its package-handling capacity.

DHL Airways, the company's subsidiary airline, is based in Erlanger.

The two companies employ about 1,900 locally — including about 960 full-time workers and pilots.

Mr. White would not disclose the privately owned company's financial figures. But DHL Worldwide Express, based in Brussels, Belgium, with U.S. headquarters in San Francisco, recorded almost $5.6 billion in revenue worldwide in 2000. That's a 21 percent jump from the previous year.

“More likely than not, that revenue growth is declining if not flat,” said Dan Moyer, air freight analyst for Air Cargo Management Group. “And the whole domestic market is really slowing down, and even showing negative growth.”

Mr. White said no layoffs are planned.

[mriya225]

Guvnor,
Apparently, you're too high up and I'm too low down on the corp. food chain to be heard honey.
They know what they know and by God ain't nobody gonna tell 'em any different :rolleyes: (until they're singing the same tune from the unemployment line down the road).

Sing with me now ;)
*Swing low, sweet chariot, comin' for to carry me home....*


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"You did WHAT"?!

[Alotta Fagina]

looks like this will be my third "downturn" in the biz.

Unfortunately the good work made by pilot unions in securing top dollar pay scales can and may come tumbling down mighty fast - especially in the US.

Most important thing is to keep ones job - the pay is a bonus now fellahs.

[wonderbusdriver]

The whole business plan is crock, if they have to resort to kicking out people on such short notice.

They want "flexibility" from you?
Then they should set up a business that has the same "flexibility", without having to destroy their most valuable commodity.

Developping "loyalty to the company" in the workforce and realizing that this is a very important investment for "the bottom line" and the future just doesn´t seem to be too "hip" for some "managers".
We´re in it for the long-run - Most of them don´t seem to be.

Don´t worry guys.
What goes around, comes around.
Good luck!!

[mriya225]

Let's put you in their shoes then for sh*ts-n-grins:
You've gotta find a way to stay afloat during the lean times and keep the company alive long enough to keep providing jobs for your most valuable commodity well into the future... to everybody's satisfaction.

Your management does you no favors in the long run by indulging you when the market won't support it; they only reduce their lifespan and end up putting you on the unemployment line anyway.

The process of laying people ** isn't as arbitrary as you may think... I was laid off, and they filled my position with a person that they pay just over one half of what they were paying me to do it.
Moral of the story: Be loyal to your own best interests, and if that requires a little bit of flexibilty on your part--so be it. It's a helluva lot easier for your ego to survive that blow than it is to be out pounding the pavement, with nothing but your dignity to keep you company when you're sorting through the "Sorry pal" letters.

------------------
"You did WHAT"?!

** = off; laying people off. :)

[This message has been edited by mriya225 (edited 18 May 2001).]

[wonderbusdriver]

Sorry, I don´t quite get that post?
Didn´t want to criticize any of my fellow pilots. (Maybe because of my english I somehow didn´t find the right words...)

From your post, I´m under the impression, we actually have the same opinion, mryia.

I´m NOT telling anyone to be "loyal" to his employer.
I´m telling management to be loyal to their employees, if they want to get the most from them and the company to thrive.

Unfortunately 99% of them think different, I know.

[mriya225]

Nothing at all wrong with your English--if it isn't your native tongue--you're doing brilliantly!!

My point was that it is an over-simplification to assume that just because a company is willing to contract its size, according to what the current market will support; it has no loyalty to its employees.

It's a difficult decision to make, but it may be the only way to ensure long-term viability. Just as your company must be flexible in order to survive; you need to be flexible enough to follow suit... or risk having to look for another job in a depressed market.

[wonderbusdriver]

Thanks. Now I get it.
You´re right of course.

It´s just the way the company "contracts its size", where we seem to have slightly different "models".
The approach here in my country (Germany), is to talk to the workers reps/unions as early as possible (that´s the hard part I know) and work on a plan to "downsize" the spending of cash, while retaining as many jobs as possible.
The result (depending of course on the severity of the negative cashflow) might then be, that the employees will have to live with much less money, but at least keep their jobs and the prospect of returning to profitability as the company does.
All employees have to be flexible in this model, but the outlook for them would not be as extreme, as being laid-off, especially on very short notice.
When things get better, the company has the flexibility to relatively quickly "upsize" production without much disruption of the whole system, also having to raise the payscales again.

All of this theoretical banter doesn´t help any of those furloughed, of course.
Whatever happens, I hope things get better for you quickly!

[Fuji Flyer]

It's unlikely that Polar will lay off pilots since the most junior are on the 400, which is the aircraft they want to keep moving. Unfortunately we are doing more ACMI than we want to, which as the previous poster mentioned, makes you vulnerable to economic downturns.

[Po Boy]

Friday June 1, 6:15 pm Eastern Time
Airborne to Cut 640 Employees
Airborne Inc. to Cut 640 Employees, Citing Weak Economy and Slumping Business
SEATTLE (AP) -- Airborne Inc. (NYSE:ABF - news), the holding company for shipping service provider Airborne Express, said Friday it will lay off 640 employees, or about 2.5 percent of its work force, due to slumping business.

The first layoffs in the company's 55-year history will be across the board and are expected to trim $26 million to $28 million in costs annually, the Seattle-based company said in a statement.

"This decision, certainly one of the most difficult and painful Airborne has ever made, was necessitated solely by the continuing drop in customer shipping that has affected our entire industry,'' Airborne president and chief executive Carl Donaway said.

Donaway said the company put off layoff plans, hoping for an economic turnaround that would increase business from its corporate clients. But that has not happened.

"Many of our biggest customers are feeling the economic pinch as painfully as we are,'' Donaway said. "That's had a significant, negative impact on Airborne's revenues over the last six months.''

Airborne will take a one-time charge estimated at $3.1 million to $3.6 million in the second quarter for severance packages and other restructuring costs.

Shares of Airborne were up 11 cents to close at $11 in trading Friday on the New York Stock Exchange.

On the Net:

www.airborne.com (http://www.airborne.com)
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[Delboy]

Wonderbusdriver; growth in Germany has been considerably less than that in the USA over the past decade and unemployment has been considerably higher, standing currently at 8.9%. Germany's employment laws discourage employers from taking on staff and similar laws are contributing to a sclerotic EU economic performance. Forcing employers to justify their actions to the workforce does nothing to reduce unemployment nationally. Wake up at the back there! The EU is destroying your nation.

[Po Boy]

Saturday June 2, 1:50 pm Eastern Time
Press Release
SOURCE: Air Line Pilots Association
Atlas Pilots and Flight Engineers to Picket Shareholders Meeting
HERNDON, Va., June 2 /PRNewswire/ -- Pilots and flight engineers of Atlas Air, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International, will picket their company's annual shareholders meeting beginning 10 a.m. Monday, June 4 at Manhattanville College in Purchase, New York.

The cockpit crews have been attempting since April 2000 to negotiate their first labor contract with airline management. The National Mediation Board assigned a federal mediator to facilitate the contract negotiations in September 2000.

"We want our shareholders to know that fair treatment of this pilot group is long overdue. Any investor in an enterprise should be aware of unresolved labor issues that, if allowed to escalate into a strike, could stifle the organization's ability to generate revenue,'' said Captain Gregory Amussen, chairman of the Atlas pilots' unit in ALPA.

"This senior management's dawdling at the bargaining table could lead to a dramatic devaluation of these investors' holdings,'' he added. "Why would senior management allow something as simple as a labor contract negotiation to spoil a good venture? Atlas has reported record profits in recent quarters, yet continues to provide inferior compensation to its professional cockpit crews. We're not asking for the moon; we just want to be compensated in a manner more consistent with the treatment of our peers in the industry. Considering the enormous responsibility that we bear every time we report to work -- a pilot can't have a 'bad day' -- and the value that we bring to the enterprise, we think our reasonable demands are not too much to ask,'' he said.

"We're sure our management has to grapple with the increasing volatility and cutthroat competition in the international air-cargo industry. Why they would choose to continue distracting themselves with this contract negotiation is a mystery to us. We suggest that management put our contact negotiation to rest with a fair, equitable settlement, and focus intently on carving out and protecting a competitive position for Atlas Air in the changing worldwide marketplace,'' Amussen said.

"With the security and stability of an enforceable labor contract achieved, the cockpit crewmembers of Atlas Air will be better able to join with management in a partnership for success. The time to resolve our differences is now,'' Amussen added.

Atlas is the world's third-largest cargo carrier and the world's largest operator of Boeing 747 freighters. Last year the airline received the distinction of being ranked the world's most financially fit carrier.

Atlas' pilots and flight engineers are represented by the ALPA, the world's oldest and largest pilots union. ALPA represents more than 59,000 pilots at 49 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. ALPA's worldwide headquarters, and the Atlas pilots' Strike Preparedness Center, are located in Herndon, VA, part of the greater Washington, D.C. metropolitan area.

INFORMATIONAL PICKET:
10 a.m. through duration of shareholders meeting
Monday, June 4
Manhattanville College
2900 Purchase Street
Purchase, NY 10577
SOURCE: Air Line Pilots Association

:) ;) :) ;)

[411A]

Whats wrong with this picture.......rather large business downturn in the air cargo business and ALPA wants to go on strike at Atlas? Have always thought that there were at least some at ALPA with brains, but they cannot be in the Atlas group.

[Stitchman]

Hey Guv, I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that we are sick and tired of your clueless and ignorant comments in this forum.......
Get a life!!!

[DownIn3Green]

I just reviewed this thread and I didn't notice anything "ignorant" or "clueless" about his post.

Anyway, if it irritates guys like you stitch, then I'm all for it.

Why don't you get a life instead of wasting everyone's time with your closed minded ideals?

[ironbutt57]

looks to me the management team at atlas is faced with the old "pissing out forest fires" scenario...too busy with wet lease fires, to see the one that's burninig at their feet...their own labor problems...lets hope it gets sorted out for the better, because a strike could burn the whole forest down...then who wins...

[fr8poodle]

Airborne Express furloughs another 10 pilots, for a total now of 15!!!!!!

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Never turn down blow jobs or type ratings

[Ai Start]

How many aircraft does ATLAS now have sitting on the ground eating Tarmac? No disrespect, however the trend in business collapse is when one open's shop, starts to make money then becomes greedy, wants to conquer the market and then gets hit by weak economy. Just like a slap in the face! Atlas should sort themselves out, it resembles like a chicken without a head!

I hear they have lots of aircraft parked, few in Far East, lots in MIA. Too many B747's in their fleet so they swamp the market by dumping rates to keep pilots happy and to keep flying. Is that a solution ladies and gentlemen?

[CargoRat2]

I heard 15 aircraft parked.

------------------
rgds Rat

[Elguapo747]

Yes, there are quite a few ATLAS acft on the ramp soaking up the sun. Thanks in a large part to the management at ATLAS. Most of the aircraft are of the 747-200/300 varaiety because the AAMT decided it was in the best interst of the company to furlough pilots and PFE's Out-of-Senority :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: this is the treatment we get at this company, well in the immotal words of ROBERTO DURAN--"NO MAS" All my union has been working for, is a just and fair contract for the pilots at ATLAS AIR. We are not trying to destroy the company--we want it to succeed!!! This company has shown record profits for several years and brags about it however at the first sign of a bump in the cargo buissness they decide to furlough 107 crew. I agree that this is a buisness and we need to stay competitve in order to survive. But why force the pilot group to accept a furlough while still paying your top executives their outragous salries.

Enough of my ramblings there are alot of things wrong at ATLAS AIR and only will be resoved by the remaining pilots getting their deserved contract.

Remember SENIORITY is like your paycheck or your wife--It just does not seem right to have another man scerw around with it. :rolleyes:

------------------
El Guapo 747
(Wow that is a BIG ONE!!)

[This message has been edited by Elguapo747 (edited 05 June 2001).]

[Roadtrip]

I understand that Atlas furloughed mostly engineers. What's up with that, since Atlas has PFE's? If they didn't need "crews," then I assume there would be a ratio of 2 pilots and 1 engineer furloughed.

[ex-expat]

The reason Atlas furloughed mostly PFE's is that the attrition rate among F/O's is about 50% a year whereas PFE's hardly ever leave for better jobs. Atlas uses the yearly attrition to bring down the number of crews after the 4 quarter rush, and then slowly hires and trains pilots to ramp back up for the 4 quarter again. F/O's are often in short supply and many have senority of less then 6 months to a year. Almost all the PFE's have years of senority. Moreover, since most of the parked airplanes are B-747 classics, and not the -400's, you would expect a greater number of furloughed PFE's to pilots. Not fair and I don't agree with the union stance but let's hope the guys have what it takes to get off the paki plantation and take control of their professional lives.

I was there.

[fr8k9]

Ex,
You had me going for a minute, but according to the sen. list's as of May the company should have furoughed 26 more pilot's or kept 26 engineer's to keep even pairing on the 200. This was only an attempt by AAMT to drive a wedge in the solidarity of the crewmembers and as usual it failed again. It seems the operations side is being run by the company negotiator without regard for whether the company survives or not.

[Hunter58]

Just a simple question to those who think it is Altas' management fault and that they deliberately put down the -200F/-300F...

How long can a company survive having 50% of it's fleet grounded due to the economy? I will tell you! It's a couple of weeks! That has nothing to do with Atlas management per se. It's jsut that the 747-200F/-300F are not in demand any more, due to the fact that all customers start having sufficient capacity on their own planes. The feight yields have plummeted, the overcapacity on certain routes makes you wonder why the carriers still fly them, and there are still carriers converting, converting, converting...

Now World Airways has decided they wanted to be big in the ACMI market. But there is already insufficient work for Gemini? Atlas is offereing dumping prices like the 747-200F for the same as World's DC10. Polar flies as soon as you are over their varaible cost. Some A300 operators are giving back their aircraft...

Sorry guys, but that is what is left over after the internet frenzy destroyed a lot of people's income. No more need for the rush spending as soon as your shares hiked! Lower demand creates lower transports, lower transports reduce the number of flights, means less aircraft, less pilots, less anything...



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There's nothing like a three-holer...

[411A]

Hunter58---
Right on the mark. That the Atlas guys want to strike in this environment puts them in the "mentally unstable" catagory.

[HEAVYWHALE]

Hunter,

You are embarrassing yourself again! First of all you don't have a clue about Atlas Air. If you have ever read any press releases about us then you would know that Atlas Management constantly brags to investors how Atlas's business plan has very limited short term risk. They have long term contracts 4 to 5 years that ensure that Atlas gets paid even if the aircraft are sitting. So, if the A/C's are sitting and they don't have to pay crews or incur maint on the planes then they make more money when they don't fly. Now it is true that we stopped flying for Aero Floral in S. Amer. But that was because we never got paid!

As far as over half the fleet sitting around, you need to work on your math a little. 36 planes, divided by 9 sitting (including 1 in C check and one in D check)= 25% or one quarter of the fleet doing nothing. Humm??? That's a little less than half. And three of them are going to work a FedEx contract in Sept.

Funny you should bring up World and Gemini. If you have ever driven to the Dullas airport in Virginia, you would see the headquarters of World Airways. And do you know what you would see right next to the World sign? The Gemini sign. They are basically the same operation. They are in the same building, same corporate HQ and if you would do some research they have Exec's that are common to both companies. So, what were you saying about World getting into the market? That Gemini is already there taking work from World? You aren't making any sense.

Then you say Polar is our competition? Polar primarily, runs there own freight. And except for a couple of nice 200's and a few 400's, they are running old 100 a/c. How can you compete with that? And as for "some A300 operators" giving back their a/c....... well that's the old B4 piece of S**T for you!

If you knew anything, about the intricate details of the Atlas Air system then you would know that the pilot's know what they are doing. You honestly believe that 850 guys who live and breath in the Atlas cockpits don't know what they are doing? How many hours have you sat in my seat, sir? Unless you work for AACS, then you are sitting in my seat!

Get a clue!

You remind me of the guy who would walk into a place and say, "I want to work here". While everyone is walking out the door. If I may, it's kind of like the guy who runs into the burning building, while everyone is runing out, because he needs to keep his family warm! Duh! There are other ways to keep warm.

[LimeyAK]

411,

It must be hard getting up every morning filled with hate, and from reading your diatribe against Atlas pilots over the last year or so that IS the best way to describe it. Why the beef?, you personally have something against 800 or so professionals trying to better their's and their families lifestyles?, you got something against a professional being paid commesurate to their worth?, or how much they can negotiate?. That is afterall how ALL wages are determined.
Maybe you were turned down by Atlas, yeah thats it, you failed our psych test eh?, or maybe the largest airliner you've ever operated is the C-411,(hence the pen name) and you don't have a clue what you are on about.

Either way the only person qualified to call me clinically insane is my shrink, and he thinks the medication is working wonders.

[411A]

LimeyAK--
Would agree that the guys at Atlas need higher pay, but the TIME to strike is when business is good, not in the climate of today. And it will not "suddenly" get better in the fourth quarter, as some speculate.

Glad your medication is working! Hope for the best.

[metrodriver]

well, here are some numbers:
ATI:75
Kitty Hawk:80+
Express One:60+
Amerijet:60+ (recalled most)
Capital Cargo: ?
Atlas:105
Polar:24
Gemini: no furloughs yet, crews asked to take vacation.
Atlas and Polar were the last ones to announce furloughs. Some companies have hired back some people. These furlouhgs started beginning of this year, after the christmas season wound down. Please don't attack me if I'm off on some numbers, since some of them are from crewmembers and others from publications.

[Po Boy]

Limey AK,

I just wanted to thank you for your last reply to 411. I couldn't have said it any better! I think this should also be targeted for GUV and all the other Atlas bashers. I am one of the furloughed crew members, and it just pi***s me off when I hear these guys go on and on about how greedy we are, and how we are hurting the company. Atlas is a financially sound company, and it was "US" the pilots who put this company in it's enviable position, amongst the other cago carriers!


Cheers,

Po Boy http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[411A]

Po Boy---
You are not "hurting the company" with your planned action, you are hurting yourselves. In the recessionary climate of today, with airfreight revenues DOWN, is surely NOT the time to strike.....OR, are you listening to the ALPA swan song.....again?

[Beaver Driver]

Limey et. al.

Hunter58 = The Governer
411A = The Governer

[Wino]

Actually an airline is more vulnerable and more likely to settle a strike during hard economic times than good times.

Contrary to what 411a thinks, the best time to strike a company is when its coffers are nearly empty as it doesn't have the financial wearwithal to whether a strike.

However, as 411a is blatantly anti union, i suspect that he knows that and just seeks to give poor advice.

Cheers
Wino

[411A]

Wino--
You would (in normal circumstances) be right, but consider: Atlas coffers are FULL, so they will be able to wait out the pilots....or hire new ones. I have found over the years that pilots, generally, do not consider the outcome. They are only interested in inflicting the most damage to the company...and in the process, shoot themselves in the foot.

[747FOCAL]

Anyone give a thought to the fact that upcoming noise rules will crush the life out of the smaller companies when they can't operate into most EU airports cause their fleet is a little too loud. the smaller carriers keep the big ones honest. We may get a slightly quieter environment, but when a box of kleenex that cost a dollar cost 5 tomorrow, we all loose. Bad anology, but I am tired and need to goto bed.

[joseph mirabella]

Southwest Airlines is hiring.

[Elguapo747]

Why is it when civilized people attempt to express ideas and share them over the medium of the internet there happens to be a few flakes that always have to put their two-cents in. I am not going to attack anyone, however reading some of the posts here, I don't really see anything constructive comming from a few. Please if you have somthing for the pilots and flight engineers who have been furloughed--by all means contribute(eg. job information, who is interviewing, etc..). If you don't have something to contribute find another site to post your diatribe, as I am sure that the internet has a few places for that.

While I am not saying that "Why can't we all get along." I would like to see more info on ways to resolve the current problems at Polar and Atlas and all of the other airlines that have some really good people on the street.

Let's work together as the professionals that we all claim and aspire to be.

PS to LimeyAK
Remember you don't have to be a "LOONEY" to be crazy. :rolleyes: Hope to see you in MSP soon. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

------------------
El Guapo 747
(Wow that is a BIG ONE!!)

[HEAVYWHALE]

Let's see........

The CEO of Atlas made $350,000 last year in salary, and $5 million in bonus. Hummm........ $5,350,000 personal income! Not to mention the loans on his house and car that were forgiven by Atlas.

Do the math.........

107 furloughed crew members, at lets say $50,000/yr. (that's a little high, by the way) and you come out with.........???????

$5,350,000!!!!! Yet another strange coincidence at Atlas Air.

[411A]

HEAVYWHALE--
The CEO of any airline always makes more, that's why he is the CEO. And the more profitable the airline is, the more he makes. This would normally trickle down to the troups.....you did receive the profit-sharing payment, did you not? Whats the beef?
It would appear that the "105" were furloughed due to low aircargo demand so do you think that Atlas should keep them employed anyway?

[Beaver Driver]

411
Are you a simpleton?? Perhaps you should stick to golf. Why should the CEO of any company get that amount of money if he can't keep his assets employed and his employees working. This is not rocket science, and it never would have happened (even with the slowing freight market) if Chowdry had been alive.

Michael deserved every penny he made. The Lorenzo toady we have at the top today needs to go sell toasters, because he sure doesn't know how to run an airline.

Truth be known, Atlas is currently being run by the contract negotiator, originally employed as a hired gun, he is now the VP of Human Resources or some other such rubbish. He is the one calling all the shots, and he is the one allowing Atlas to go down the toilet. RS (the CEO) needs to have his head examined for allowing this to happen.

[This message has been edited by Beaver Driver (edited 09 June 2001).]

[HEAVYWHALE]

411 A,

To quote you,
"HEAVYWHALE--
The CEO of any airline always makes more, that's why he is the CEO."

I thought CEO's were the CEO because they knew what they were doing, and that they could be responsible for leading the company to higher and higher profits, not because he makes more.

Actually, if you read your statement and apply classroom logic, it is very accurate! You state that the reason CEO's are CEO'S is because they make more money. So, hence, the greedy bastard that is running the company! He's not interested in anything other than filling his pockets up with money, damn the rest of the people!



[This message has been edited by HEAVYWHALE (edited 09 June 2001).]

[The Guvnor]

Heavywhale - I tend to agree with you about the level of bonus paid to the Atlas CEO - however, my question would be: did Atlas make money last financial year; and if so, how much? Then take the US$5m and see what sort of percentage of the overall profit it is.

There's nothing stopping you - or indeed anyone else - from going out and starting up your own company. I am; I know Hunter58 has and so has 411A. Perhaps it's not so much of a coincidence here that we are all very anti the current wage demands in the face of furloughs and global economic depression/recession.

Since MC died, it seems that Atlas has started to disintegrate. What you guys need to do right now is cut your costs substantially if you want to be around next year - and that's likely to mean a choice of (a) lots of furloughs at Atlas USA; or (b) heavy pay cuts across the board. I don't see AACS/GSS or the new operations in Asia and Russia being adversely affected - their costs are not as high as the US.

Your choice boys. Jobs or dole?

[cargo400]

I just can't get over the amount of time these alleged entrepreneurs in the airline industry have to reply to every labour/management issue post on PPRUNE. They will never be successful at running even a womens hat shop because they can't keep their mouths shut. You sure don't see Atlas mgt posting such drivel all over the place or COMAIR mgt or any other airline execs--they know how to act. Like 'em or not it takes a certain amount of class to be upper mgt. Something the likes of the GUV or 411A lack.

You guys are losers and close to the lowest form of life on Earth. Deriving some sort of perverse pleasure from winding up the honest, hard working pilots in troubling situations is sad. Do you make fun of the handicapped as well?

Atlas will survive or fail based on the merits of the mgt team being able to employ the assets in a profitable manner. The Atlas pilots are not out to destroy their company, but seek reasonable treatment from a management. The time to make this point is now, when the company is most vunerable. These guys have not only been shortchanged but abused as well. Many have given a substantial portion of their lives to build this company and all they see is upper management walking off with the fruits of their labor.

For you pontificating nobodies who will never manage, own, operate, or otherwise control an airline, find some other form of entertainment like goldfish keeping. Yes that's a good idea. Waste your ample breath on telling your goldfish how to act and behave. You'd be just as bloody effective.

To my friends at Atlas, keep the faith. The whole industry is watching!

[DownIn3Green]

I agree the time to act is now. Atlas pilots need to strike now. The sooner the better, I say.

Then Polar, Airborne, et al will have plenty of work, and be able to feed their families, take quality vacations, etc.

One thing I'm not clear on: If Atlas (or any other ALPO carrier) goes on strike, will the other members have to double up on their assesments? I mean, surely a strike threat will lose it's clout as soon as management realizes that there are not ample reserves in the ALPO coffers to provide benefits to all the misguided individuals who choose to walk off their job.

[The Guvnor]

Cargo400 - care to enlighten us all as to precisely how many airlines you've run - or when you're intending to start your own?

Once you've done it, you can criticise. Until then, don't you think it might be a good idea to keep schtuum and listen to - and learn from - the likes of Hunter58 and 411A - both of whom have been around a lot longer than I have?

[ironbutt57]

Gee there guv...why not take it one step further and transfer all the jobs to your teabag friends...atlas wouls save money if they would bag the whole uk operation and give it to the likes of you...don't think striking is too smart right now, but junior folks on one fleet keeping their jobs while senior folks on another loosing theirs don't work that way in america guys...something's dreadfully wrong there

[Roadtrip]

Don't kid yourself. Atlas is making plenty of money. This BS about "parked" airplanes and furloughs are just more union busting tactics. Even if management lets it go to a strike, a lot of Atlas crews have military retirement income to see them through. I doubt VERY seriously that management will let it go to a strike. Atlas can't just stop selling tickets. They have contracts to deliver on that probably have heavy penalty clauses written into them. GSS/AACS won't be able to carry the water even if some are stupid enough to scab themselves.

Oh please - GSS/AACS/alter ego company de jour/whatever -- cheaper to operate? The AACS payscale is higher (now) than Atlas mainline. I think Atlas management has made some very fundamental blunders in not dealing squarely with their labor problems. It didn't have to be that way. Atlas could have had a good European-based operation and a good US-based operation, but like many airline managements, they are mostly balls and not much forehead when it comes to human relations and employee management.

Although now with another company, I was proud to have flown with Atlas crews and counted myself as an Atlas ALPA union member. I still have that bottle of champagne awaiting the signing of the first contract. Keep the faith! ISFS

[Who?]

Well said Cargo400. Give it a rest please Guvnor. We all know you aren't an airline exec, and never will be.
For those who haven't read it yet, http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html , and from airliners.net where his handle is "Ceilidh" see an ex-collegue details The Guvnor's lies about himself. http://airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/483489
The Guvnor has no credability. Much better if he "kept schtuum".

[411A]

BeaverDriver--
Clearly you were not listening during the lectures in Economics 101.
The CEO of a company is responsible to the Board of Directors who in turn report to...what a surprise, the shareholders. The CEO's job is to maximise profits, not run a dole queue for the employees.
The employees are paid what the management think they are worth. If said employees are not satisfied, they have the option of quiting or joining a union to try to better their conditions. If however, they walk out at an inappropriate time, when business is slow, management is quite happy to walk away from the table, ie: Comair or, in an earlier time National in MIA. 'Ole Bud Maytag at National played ALPA like a Stradivarius every time.

Was it not MC who hired the present management, including the current CEO?

[LimeyAK]

Um Guv,
I really am impressed by golly that you and your clones on this forum have RUN an "airline" is it?,

Me begs to diffah sah, but would you by chance still have one RUNNING?, ie: one bucket of bolts to throw through the air?,

I thought not.

Get one, and THEN preach to us what you think you know. Course if you did then you wouldn't have time to spend on this forum would you?

There is this wannabe forum....

[The Guvnor]

Limey AK - you just don't listen, do you? Unlike you, I have run airlines. Not big ones to be sure; but I have had to deal with all those day to day hassles that the average pilot wouldn't know the first thing about.

My current operation is coming along slowly - but at least it is progressing. So is that of 411A. Hunter58 has a well established and respected company.

As 411A rightly points out, management is responsible to the shareholders - the people who actually own the company. They are the ones who have to make all the unpopular decisions and although they are generally fairly well paid, it's a thankless task.

Right now, the cargo airline business is in the middle of a very sharp downturn - something I said was going to happen months back and which a lot of people - yourself included - ridiculed me about. Well, that's the difference between us (management) and you (employees). We have to be able to see into the future and plan accordingly - and we have to be able to do it as accurately as possible.

So let me make another forecast. If you guys go on strike at Atlas, you'll not be working there this time next year. The US is - like it or not - one of the highest cost countries in the world. Costs are not just related to pay; but to all the ancilliary items. Given that the overwhelming majority of Atlas' operations are outside the USA, it will make much more sense for them to move themselves offshore.

With 16 aircraft parked, Atlas' management can - and will - play hardball. All your fears about AACS providing alternative crews will come to pass - but that's going to be little consolation to you as you send out your CV yet again.

[HEAVYWHALE]

That is true that the CEO is accountable to the Share Holders. Gov. would you care to guess who a good portion of Share Holders of this company are? You got it the Pilots. You see Management offers a 15% discount of the lowest price of the quarter to the Pilots. It's actually a pretty good deal. But, however, my shares are all down. Why? Because of the stupid stuff that Management is doing. Yes, I do understand that the economy is a little slow. International Freight down by 3% from last year. But our stock price is off by 50%. It's gone down since M.C. died. I would guess it's more having to do with Stock Holder "lack of confidence" in the Management, rather than the typical excuse of the down turn in the economy.
Right now this place is a ship without a rudder. I would be willing to wager that when the strike vote results come out that the stock will go down even farther. We're looking at $22/share now, I would say that we would hit the teens, a price that Atlas hasn't seen in years.

Now you say why would the employees do something like that? Well, what we do is very predictable. We haven't been out there wild cating. Management knows the in's and out's of labor and what the procedures are for getting a contract. Nothing that we have done has been out of the ordinary at all. So, why do they act all surprised and tell us that the company is very very weak and can't afford to pay us industry standard wages? Because it's not in the CEO's best interest, not the companies! He will have to make less money. You see when a contract comes on the property, one of the first things that happens is a Management Panic. They freak out and realize that they are going to have to save money in ways that they never thought about. They become efficient in travel expenses, hotel costs, and crew scheduling. All the Assistants Assistants get laid off, because they weren't needing in the first place. As an aside, don't you think that it's funny that they laid off 107 crews, and hired two more board members? This company has way to many Chief's and not enough Indians. To many people riding this golden goose trying to get rich and line there pockets.

All we want as crew members, is to be paid on an industry standard. Do you know what the Atlas Annual report says about the compensation of the CEO's? It says that they are paid on an "industry standard". And did you know that the CEO's have demanded that they work under a contract themselves? What a bunch of hypocrits! We as crews just want to work in a place where there is some accountability for miss actions of Management, right now only the crews are held accountable. I have a close friend in Management and they say that this place is wasting so much money it's a joke. Did you know that until recently, if someone in N.Y. had to do some business with our office in MIA that they would jump on a plane and go down there instead of picking up the phone!!! That's not me telling you that, that's someone in Mgmt. This place is so wasteful it's incredible. If they were to clean up all their inefficiencies, they would save enough money to pay us what we are asking and some!!! The crews would be happy and go the extra mile and this place would have record profits again.

We aren't a bunch of greedy people. You wanna talk about greed, $5,350,00 personal income of R.S. our CEO! As I pointed out before, that would pay the whole pay roll for the 107 that were furloughed for a year!!!

You guys just don't get it do you?

[Hunter58]

HEAVYWHALE

continue your bragging... I work in the freaking business! ANd contrary to you I know the execs you talk about personally!

Now to the IAD case. YOU never have been there! You will never see a Gemini sign, because they are right at the airport, where official signs are so limited that you cannot get them on any building. World on the other hand is outside the airport along VR28 (VR for Virginia Road), right besides the Hilton. And trust me, there may be some guys who have come to Gemini form World or who have come to World from Gemini, but they are no friends! On the other hand, Atlas has no friends at all, so who cares...!

Talking about Wall Street! Great, again you believe your management that takes up any second they can get to lie to you, but there you believe them? I just love it!

Continue to dream my friend. But let's look again how the world is at the end of the month. And then we'll see who IS informed and who is NOT!

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There's nothing like a three-holer...

[Hunter58]

Beaver

although I know the Gov, I am definitely NOT him!

You guys don't get it. I try to tell you guys, run and get another job at a decent airline, and you continue to support the same guys that try to bust your own union, try to use any reason they can find to kick you, but you seem to still be very loyal to your management.

I am just clueless about what you want to stand for.

You raise hell against AACS, GSS and all the other little tricks played (for whatever reason), you openly call your management some of the unnicest words I ever read, but you just don't take the consequence! You stay in your seat, and you assume, that the same guys who have a definite record of lying to you are TOTALLY honest regarding the business! How in h*ll can you be so inconsequent?

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There's nothing like a three-holer...

[The Resistance]

...just finished reading the above couple of postings by Hunter58. Considering the level of competence his writing displays......it is breathtaking to imagine someone like him actually 'running' an airline! He and his cronies, 411A and The Guvnor are truly a sad pathetic bunch. A group of 'Walter Mitty's' if there ever was one....

[Tornado Ali]

......411A, your now up to EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWENTY TWO postings....!!!! Only someone who has absolutely NOTHING that resembles a life would have managed to tally up a total like that. Sad pathetic git. Do you REALLY think people take notice of anything you say. There is a reason God gave you two ears and only one mouth you know....

[cargo400]

I'd just like to keep up with how things are going at Atlas and other carriers as I used to fly for Atlas and have friends there and at Airborne, Polar and COMAIR.

It's sad that these wannabe airline execs have to hijack each and every thread so they can preach to the rest of us who are not worthy of a paycheck in their eyes.

Well, I don't run an airline Guv. However, I can still spot an idiot a mile off or over the internet. Please take your playmates and leave. You have all been publicly discredited. You are annoying, little men with no agenda but to wind up decent men. You have no message. Take a hike!

[411A]

And now.... we have heard from the peanut gallery, the CX guys who have not been able to agree to anything with their management. All they do is throw peanuts at the CEO.
A bunch of pathetic teenagers. A three ring circus....with no elephants, but lots of peanuts.

[The Resistance]

....yawn....

[The Guvnor]

Hey, The Resistance - what do they call a UB40 in the States these days? :) :) :)

Of course, if you work for Atlas, it does tend to confirm what some of the guys have been saying about Atlas and it's low pay.

You know the old saying ... pay peanuts and get monkeys.

What does that make you, then, dear boy? :) :) :)

[water check]

....what it makes him Guv is someone a WHOLE lot less 'self-important' than you. Over TWO THOUSAND posts......get a life. What better example of arrogance than this would be hard to find....

[water check]

....other than 411A of course... ;)

[This message has been edited by water check (edited 11 June 2001).]

[LimeyAK]

Hey Git, opps, Guv,

Have you now degraded yourself to calling names like a schoolyard bully?

Monkeys?

What the F$@K over?

Go back to Africa where you might be able to get away with insulting people like that.
You certainly have no respect from any readers here, (except for your croonies).

You have me shaking in my freakin' shoes about my job, what a naysayer.

I'm done.

[ironbutt57]

probably all guv would ever find to fly his tritanics....if they ever actually do

[Hunter58]

Guv, 441A

well, I don't know, but why should we care? Let's look and see what these gentlemen will write in these forums when the industry has to lay off more of them. We then could come back and tell them 'we told you so!', as we could have in the past. But we certainly won't, just out of politeness...

One thing puzzles me the whole time. Why do certain pilots always think that because they know how to fly an aircraft they also know how to manage an airline? As a very good friend of mine (both ATPL and MX license) says: It takes you 1 and a half years to train a pilot, and then he can fly it all. The rest is a matter of seniority. But it takes you eight years to become a mechanic. And a lot of people never make it. So who really deserves credit?

And now hell will break loose... :-)

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There's nothing like a three-holer...

[Van Goff]

Have any UK based pilots been laid off by the companies yet?

[The Resistance]

Hunter.....let's see....., the CEO of the arguably the most successful airline in the US today is......Gordon Bethune. Another example of a 'bean counter' who knows best how to run an airline. Oops, I just realised, he started as a pilot, and STILL pilots one of the airlines 757's on a regular basis. Interestingly, the acknowledged reason for the airlines turnaround was his insistence, upon taking control of the airline, was to empower the employees, show them respect, and in the case of the pilots, implement an immediate 40% pay raise to bring them up to industry standard. You can read about all of this in his book 'From Worst to First'....but of course this doesn't fit your rather narrow minded view of how the world should be ordered. Interestingly, Continental is the highest rated airline in nearly every category. The difference is that they have a leader who actually gives the credit for this to his hard working employees, instead of looking for every opportunity to claim the credit for himself. He and the CEO of Southwest have shown the way forward in how to manage.....and I would hazard a guess that their ideas are completely alien to you and your kind. It would probably not be polite (but I will anyway... :) ) to point out that many pilots are graduates with degrees in business. Many, many of us could do a reasonable job of running an airline, but how many bean counters could do our job....? Our CEO could be hit by a bus tomorrow ( :) ) and the airline wouldn't even cough...., but if the pilots didn't show up for a day or so, the entire airline would catch the 'flu'.

[Huck]

The May 28 edition of Fortune magazine has a cover story on the retirement of Herb Kelleher. It should be required reading for anyone who wants to make money in the airline industry. This is a guy whose personal stake alone has grown from $10,000 to 200 million dollars.

Here are some highlights, in his own words:

"You have to treat your employees like your customers. When you treat them right, they will treat your outside customers right. That has been a powerful competitive weapon for us.

"You've got to take the time to listen to people's ideas...You don't want to constrain people in their thinking.

"The one thing that would disturb me most to see after I'm no longer CEO is layoffs at Southwest. Nothing kills your company's culture like layoffs. Nobody has ever been furloughed here, and that is unprecedented in the airline industry.... We could have furloughed at various times and been more profitable, but I always thought that was shortsighted. You want to show your people that you value them and you're not going to hurt them just to get a little more money in the short term. Not furloughing people breeds loyalty. It breeds a sense of trust. So in bad times you take care of them, and in good times they're thinking, perhaps, 'We've never lost our jobs. That's a pretty good reason to stick around.'"

[Beaver Driver]

Hunter
The difference between pilots and bean counters is a lttle thing called leadership. How much leadership can you develop running your own consulting firm. Can you say NONE?? I guarantee, however, that you can develop it in the cockpit. Remember, most pilots have at least a 4 year degree, and many more have masters degrees, or even Doctorates.

I found 411A's chastisement of me very funny. Guess he figures all you need to know about running a business is economics. What about Ethics, what about leadership, what about empowering your employees to take ownership of growing the company.

Chowdry actually did this very well when he was running the company. After he hired all the Lorenzo clones, THAT'S when things went down hill.

The three of you sound like you idolize the likes of Lorenzo, Ichan, Bergt, etc. Funny how all of these guys are no longer running their companies cause they went BANKRUPT.

Now lets look at Continental, or Southwest, or companies like Malden Mills....These are the CEO's you should emulate. These guys had leadership, mostly because they actually worked in the industry they are now captains of. They understand the worker needs and make them feel like they are important; because they are, without them there would be no company. These guys weren't hidden away in some dark office in Prestwick with a banquet table for a desk and no employees, or wandering around the Golf Courses in Sun Lakes trying to find some little ball whilst frying your brain. Get a clue, at least pilots understand that there is more to running an airline than the bottom line. You have to remember who does the work, and empower your employees, for they are the backbone of the company...not the executives.

[This message has been edited by Beaver Driver (edited 12 June 2001).]

[ironbutt57]

Excuse me "beaver driver", but I seem to recall a few posts that certainly put the late Mr Chowdry (may he rest in peace) in a very different light...have we jumped out of the frying pan, and into the fire?