ASIC Cards and Aviation ID Australia - FINES

[Schmoostyler]

I got a phone call today from a bloke over at AviationIDAustralia(.com.au) . He was enquiring as to the where abouts of an ASIC card I had that expired in October 2007, 12 months ago.

I told him that I handed it in when I renewed my ASIC through the airport I work at, to which he replied, well, if your old ASIC card dosen't get back to us, you get a fine, it says so on the back.

I was bemused. I handed my card in to Airport Management, who wouldn't give me my new card unless I did so, and then they failed to forward my expired card onto this organisation. Now it's up to me to provide a Statuatory Declaration saying that I did infact hand it into the Airport Management when I got my new card, or I'll get a fine.

I'm bewildered that the onus of responsibility for this has come back to me.

<insert sarcastic comment about the usefullness of ASIC cards and the bureaucracy surrounding them here>

[Chu Mai Huang]

Two words:
"BOOL SHEET"

Since when has an expired ANYTHING card been worth anything?
Don't worry about it, go get a beer.

[fallen]

You are required to return an expired ASIC within one month to the issuing body. In your case AviationIDAustralia.

Don't know why Airport Management made you give them your previous card, it's not theirs.

I'd be doing the Stat. Dec. unless you don't particularly care about having an aviation related offence on your record.

[makespeed250kt]

It would seem these ASIC cards don't have much cred with the airforce. Took the kids to the Point Cook aviation museum today. Left my wallet at home so I didn't have my drivers licence.

Showed the security guard my ASIC card which I had in the car, but apparently that wasn't a recognised ID?

Fortunately my wife had her drivers licence with her so she was able to sign us in but I wasn't allowed to pilot the family car past the security gate, so reluctantly had to hand the keys to the missus.

Go figure.

[Old Fella]

MakeSpeed250kt Off thread a bit I know, but I recall trying to get into a RAAF Base at which I had served for 13 years and, as I was living out of Australia, I presented my ICAO ID, (no good), my HK Photo ID Drivers Licence , My CX ID (both no good). What was acceptable? A paper NSW Drivers Licence with no photo which I could have picked up in the car park. As you said, Go figure!

[Chu Mai Huang]

But his card had expired. In other words, it was no longer valid. In other words, no longer a valid ASIC. In other words, nothing more than a card. Much the same as when it was valid! Just a card. Show us the clause which says that normally expiring ASICs must be returned. There sure is no such remark on the back of my ASIC.
I don't hand back my old credit cards to the bank.

I recently spent two days working on a popular RPT airport interstate. My ASIC was never inspected by nobody. Nearby LAMEs working on the tarmac area did not have cards displayed. If they did - they would be lost in 5 minutes with all the crawling in and around aircraft they need to do.

[fallen]

Chu Mai Huang
Show us the clause which says that normally expiring ASICs must be returned.6.45 Return of ASICs and VICs that have expired etc
(1) The holder of an ASIC or VIC must return it to the issuing
body that issued it within 1 month if:
(a) the ASIC or VIC expires; or
(b) the holder is notified that it has been cancelled; or
(c) the ASIC or VIC has been damaged, altered or defaced
(permanently or temporarily); or
(d) the holder no longer has an operational need to enter the
relevant secure area.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) A contravention of subregulation (1) is an offence of strict
liability.

[Pilotette]

My old expired ASIC is floating around the bottom of my nav bag somewhere and I've had my new one since the end of last year..should I be expecting a fine sometime in the near future? :confused:

[ga_trojan]

I was in a situation where I held two ASIC cards ( I was told that was legal? I can't see how) and once the CASA one expired CASA told me to destroy it. About 6 months later I received a phone call from Aviation ID Australia saying the same as Schmoostyler. So I had to provide a stat dec saying that the CASA ASIC had been destroyed.

[Mr. Hat]

the fine is a big one apparently.

this security stuff is serious. just like g bush said "shock and awe". only that the only people that are shocked are the taxpayers - the real crims think its a joke!

[knox]

My ASICs expired in Aug. Its in a box in NZ somewhere?

Man i hope they don't fine me.... the world may stop!!!


Knox.

Oh yeah... how much is the fine?? anyone know?

[ContactMeNow]

So if you sign a stat dec saying you destroyed it then your off the hook?

Or you can sell your ASIC to some local terror network and then cop the fine. But the balance will give you a nice little profit (need a way of making money in GA right? :{)

CMN
:}

[fallen]

Oh yeah... how much is the fine?? anyone know? 10 penalty units. I think a penalty unit is about $100 these days. So about $1000

[knox]

A 1000 buck fine eh :hmm:.... just as well i'm making so much dosh in GA :rolleyes:
Wonder if i can pay the fine off over the next 10 years or so.

Knox.

[18-Wheeler]

Talking with a new guy in the company a couple of days ago, he accidentally put his ASIC card into the holder inverted, and one of the scurity babboons pulled him up for it. Mate looks down at the card and so when he holds the bottom up to look at it it's the right way up for him.
"Looks all right to me!" he said, jokingly.
Security babboon was not impressed and gave him a $500 fine for improperly dispalying the card. I think New Mate told him to piss off and threw the fine in the bin. :)

[PlankBlender]

Your mate should report the security monkey for such obvious misuse of his powers. What a pl@nker! People like that make we want to #$&^%@ :eek:

[Flying Binghi]

The ASIC....the best thing ever invented to make Oz security look like fools - looks like a 're-think' required here.

[Sunfish]

I sticky taped my old one to the renewal form. CASA issued it, CASA better have it.

[tubby one]

:cool:From the Fact Sheet for Security Personnel

How should an ASIC be properly displayed?
An ASIC must always be properly displayed when the holder is in a relevant secure area. An ASIC is properly displayed if it is attached to a persons outer clothing:

above waist height; and
at the front or side of his or her body; and
with the whole front of the ASIC or VIC clearly visible.
A person is not properly displaying the ASIC or VIC if anything adhering to it obscures a photograph or anything else on it.

If someone has an invalid ASIC, incorrectly displays or misuses an ASIC, they may be fined or prosecuted
Strange there is nothing about whether it should be 'right way up'!!!!:ugh:

[NAMPS]

Oh yeah... how much is the fine?? anyone know?

10 penalty units. I think a penalty unit is about $100 these days. So about $1000

Close. A Penalty Unit is $110.00 (refer section 17, Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999).

[fallen]

The fact sheet mirrors the regulations. A lot of people wear there ASIC's "horizontal" because this is the orientation of the card holder they have.

One thing I've learnt over the years is don't expect those enforcing regulations to actually know what they are.

[aussie1234]

Who says the ASIC is usless? Free entry into Covergirls and the Woolshed in Cairns with it.

[MTBUR]

My ASIC expires in December. Will CASA contact me to get it renewed, or should i go ahead and renew is myself?

MTBUR

[PlankBlender]

MTBUR, you really need to ask that question? :}

[MTBUR]

Seems as though I just did so...yeah?

[PlankBlender]

Of course they won't mother you into the renewal :ugh:

CASA don't care whether your license, medical, or ASIC is valid or not, or for that matter whether or not your due for a BFR, or still current to carry passengers.. they start to care a lot if you're ever caught without current and valid documents, let alone if something happens -- in that case the insurance company starts to care a lot too.. :E

Here's the link just in case :suspect:

Applying for an ASIC - Applications and other information (http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/asic/applic.htm)

And just because you're new here :} try this to account for numbers of take-offs and landings (does IFR recency as well) for your passenger recency:

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download E170 Logbook 2002 Duties V3 7.xls (http://www.4shared.com/file/51181403/62fd81c2/E170_Logbook_2002__Duties_V3_7.html)

[MTBUR]

Then again, it is $185 for CASA, so logic says they'd jump at the opportunity! :ok:

Cheers for the link as well, although I am old-school with my logbook! Not many people are now...

MTBUR

[FlyingDumbells]

I need to renew my asic as well...it expired about 5 months ago and I haven't been in aus for 8 months as I was only there for training purposes. I plan to go back now and renew my asic but i read that you need to give back your old asic 1 month after expiry or get a big hefty fine. what should I do, I was going to just send my old one off with the renewal app as i thought you just needed to return it when you renew. some people on here apparently haven't even given their old ones back...

[Ted D Bear]

A lot of people wear there ASIC's "horizontal" because this is the orientation of the card holder they have.


So, if you see the security guy coming, lie down fast :ok:

[aroa]

Next time a CASA person fronts me with his ASIC turned around, I'll know to step forward and book him for incorrect display.

No doubt the Federal authorites that are really into the "nitty-gritty" of terrorism, have a handle on the real issues. Well, we hope so.

I'm afraid the logic of removing nail clippers from little old grannies has stopped terrorist events, doesnt quiet cut it.

The ASIC bit was a political "got to be seen to be doing something" bit, that has given a lot of "wallies" jobs... and been a complete pain in the ar$e for joe public. Compare that with the US of A where they've had the events. GA there was seen as part of the solution, not part of the problem like the control freaks here. eg Rum Corps boss around the convicts.
Why no photo on a Pilot Licence like the Drivers licence, which is the most commonly used ID.

Alas in Bureaucratalia, a chance to build yet another empire..!!

In the end it will be like the Roman empire.. it becomes unsustainable and eventually fail.
But we're in for a long wait.

2 examples to show that you can feel secure at night.

LAME walks from hangar door to shed door... 5 paces on tarmac. Dressed in the uniform of the company, name displayed on both shirt and shed. Just stepped out to grab a tool... but alas a passing sharp eyed "plonker", doesnt see THE CARD, back inside on his trolley. Da da.. Gotcha.!!

Pilot in FNQ with aircraft rego XXY, currenty dismantled and stored in a shed, get a fine-threatening letter because XXY is not chocked and locked at MBB.!
Must be some mistake says the owner. No no you are the reg owner... must be you..!! ( good thinking there 99!) Please check what it was you actually saw at MBB and get back. Nil further.

Sleep well.!

[Joker 10]

Tell em to take you to a Magistrate, who will throw it out summarily and award you costs.

[Andy_RR]

CASA - "our records show you have failed to return your expired ASIC"

ex-ASIC-holder - "I have no comment to make regarding the accuracy of your records"

...in court later (if necessary)

"your honour, does the prosecution have ANY evidence that I have failed to return my ASIC...?

[YPJT]

Don't mix CASA up in all this mess. They don't draft, adminster or enforce any of the associated legislation. That honour goes to the Dept of Infrastrucure and Transport (Formerly DITRDLG, DOTARS). CASA are merely one of over 170 ASIC issuing bodies but unfortunately they got lumbered with the bulk of GA until some of the independent organisations were set up.

As for responsibility for returning the card. Have another look at post #7

"(2) A contravention of subregulation (1) is an offence of strict
liability. "

I am no legal expert but I do recall the term strict liability sending shivers down the spine of people in the industry for other reasons.

Options that have been discussed with the OTS is to flag any individual on the Auscheck system that has not returned their ASIC so that a further card is not issued until the previous one is resolved. In other words, far more prescriptive requirements could well be imposed if the regulations as they stand relying on individuals to comply voluntarily are not working.

Instead of bucking the system, it might just be a wise move to return the damn thing when it expires. As far as I am aware, no one has yet been prosecuted for an offence against this section of the regs but would you really want to go down in history as being the first?

By all means, if you think the ASIC requirement is wrong, flawed or whatever, communicate that to the department. You will probably have more chance of influencing change that way than posting your frustrations on PPRUNE.

[Fonz121]

So what happens if you "lose" your card?

[YPJT]

Fonz121,
simple stat dec is all that is required for loss, theft or destruction of card.

[Andy_RR]

Well, YPJT, if non-return of the cards is such a big problem, then I suggest a well publicised amnesty would go a long way to sorting the problem out. Whilst there is the sword of strict liability hung over the pilot population, defensive measures need to be thunken up.

I reckon it's still up to the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

[Joker 10]

"(2) A contravention of subregulation (1) is an offence of strict
liability. "

Should send shivers down anyones spine, it gives the DPP carte blanche to prosecute.

[YPJT]

As I said, no one to my knowledge has yet been prosecuted not returning a card.
My advice, if you still have an old one is to post it back to the IB. If you have lost it or whatever, fill out a stat dec and send that instead.

As for burdens of proof as to whether it was sent back, I'll leave that to the legal experts. You could however use a stat dec to say that you did post the card on a certain date if that is what you did but be very cautious indeed of falsifying documents.

[Eljay]

Does anyone know if you have to renew your AVID if you have a current ASIC. I noticed mine had expired late last year, and never have used it. It is just a photo ID that lasts for 5 years.

[YPJT]

Eljay,
AVID is the minimum required to fly but does not allow you to fly to a security controlled airport. Let me qualify that, it does not allow you to have unescorted access airside at a security controlled airport.

If you are likely to fly to any security controlled airport which is one that has RPT (screened or otherwise), you need an ASIC. In which case don't bother with the AVID.

[aroa]

Look at the under- paragraph of most "regs" these days... and in contravention of government requirements.. there it is a CASA holy grail chorus that the LSD mob sings...... "Under section 6? of the criminal code, this is an offence of strict liability"

For stuff that is as far removed from criminality as the moon, and you dont have to have had any deliberate pre-meditation or criminal intent.

As far as CASA is concerned.. all you criminal aviationists that havent been caught yet... everything is a crime..!

The Govt states that a 'crime' is something that is abhorrent to the community and pervailing social standards. And something that harms a person either physically or financially.
ie: yr bash a little old granny and steal her purse...now THAT's a crime.

For CASA... every breach of every reg, however minor or crummy, or impractical that reg might be.. any breach is a crime

Forget some lines way back in yr log book, not fully filled in.? That'll get you a CRIMINAL record.
Any intent? NO. Anybody hurt?, No (except yr own hip pocket nerve). Is this abborrent to the social order? No. Anything to do with making the world safer from falling aeroplanes? No But its a strict liability offence..!!

SO...Be very afraid....:mad:

[Frank Arouet]

Strict liability;

Funny you should say that mate. Someone once did a runner from the GA representative dogsbody supposed to be looking after our interests and did a shifty midnight counter deal with a dis-allowance motion that The Democrats had in The Senate behind the back of that same organization. Forced a very well intentioned Lady to resign after he compromised her professionally.

Used to post here speaking with absolute authority from memory and was probably best remembered for his not being here any more.

It's too late to say we told you so.

Perhaps Creampuff may like to re-enlighten us all on the merits of Strict Liability.

[Andy_RR]

My advice, if you still have an old one is to post it back to the IB. If you have lost it or whatever, fill out a stat dec and send that instead.

Well intentioned as it may be, the downside to doing any of this is that, if it is a late return, you have handed them evidence to prosecute - and being strict liability, they then have all the evidence they need to do so. Why do you want to give yourself up to the mercy of the regulator?

I say wait for the amnesty that any sensible government wanting to make the system work would implement at some point.

[YPJT]

I think we should just take a deep breath and calm down. It is individual issuing bodies that have the responsibility to recover expired ASICs, not the department. I doubt any IB would refer you to the feds because you sent your card back late. I know I certainly wouldn't

[Up-into-the-air]

I re-post this here to remind us all of the issues surrounding personal information and it's mis-use.

"The basis for a major change like this in the "form" must have a legislative basis for inclusion.

To me this is a major privacy issue for all of us and needs to be challenged as to legality.

The issue as previously raised in this forum of access to private information, or the consequent misuse of private information by an un-authorised third party is of major concern.

I am aware of at least one case in recent times of the passing of private information to the regulator, then misuse of it by a FOI.

The use on a basis as "Not a fit and proper person" by a delegate, ATO, unidentified CLARC person is mind boggling.

What Action should be taken??

A letter to the Privacy Commissioner and the posting of the reply on PPRUNE sounds like a good idea, then all can be advised of what we should agree to disclose or not disclose is clear.

The issue of ASIC cards is also of concern.

I would never get an ASIC card from casa. Use a third party provider, at least then, casa must make a legal application for information to this party and disclose why casa is seeking the information.

There is no requirement to use casa for your ASIC application.

Maybe this is the topic for another thread

DISCLOSE un-protected information to the regulator??

Your call!!!"

[YPJT]

Up-into-the-air,
All you are providing to CASA for an ASIC application is name, address history, date and place of birth and copies of ID. Any information good, bad or otherwise that is turned up as a result of your application cannot be given to CASA or any other issuing body by Auscheck (Attorney General's office). All that the issuing body gets from Auscheck is a yes or no to issue the card. The applicant is written to directly by Auscheck with the reasons for refusal.

The regulation regarding the informatin that is required for ASICs is:

Division 6.4 Record-keeping
6.23 Register of ASICs

(1) An issuing body must keep a register in accordance with this
regulation.

(2) The register must contain the following details of each ASIC
issued by the body:
(a) the name of the person to whom the ASIC was issued;
(b) subject to subregulation (3), his or her residential address;
(c) the general reason that he or she has an operational need to
hold an ASIC;
(d) the date of the beginning of the current period during
which he or she has continuously held an ASIC;
(e) whether the card is red, grey, permanent, temporary,
Australia wide or airport specific;
(f) the unique number of the ASIC;
(g) its date of issue;
(h) its date of expiry;
(i) if applicable, the date on which it was cancelled;
(j) if the ASIC is cancelled and the cancellation is set aside
by the Secretary or set aside (however described) by the
Administrative Appeals Tribunal:
(i) the date the cancellation is set aside; and
(ii) if the holder returns the ASIC to the issuing body
after the cancellation — the date the body returns the
ASIC to the holder;
(k) if the ASIC is suspended:
(i) the date the issuing body tells the holder about the
suspension; and
(ii) the date the holder returns the ASIC to the issuing
body; and
(iii) if the suspension period ends under subregulation
6.42C (3) — the date the body returns the ASIC to
the holder;
(l) if applicable, the date on which the ASIC was reported
lost, stolen or destroyed;
(m) if applicable, the date on which the ASIC is returned to the
to the issuing body.

(3) The register need not contain the residential address of an
ASIC holder who is a law enforcement officer, an officer or
employee of ASIO or an Australian Public Service employee.

(4) The register may be kept by means of a computer or in any
other form that can be conveniently audited.

(5) The issuing body must hold the register at its office.

(6) The issuing body must allow an aviation security inspector to
inspect the register on request during normal business hours.