A Little Busy at YMMB Lately?

[Sunfish]

Maybe it's just that I'm getting old, but went to do a few circuits at YMMB this afternoon and it was "busy", about a five minute wait at the holding point for 17L for a break in the traffic.

Once airborne, the fun began, all sorts of skill levels, all speeds, all mixed in together in one big happy family presided over by the long suffering tower. There were "two's in together", a succession of people joining from all points of the compass and the odd partial radio failure (ie volume knob turned down).

I don't know how the controllers kept their cool, politely reminding one student that they were required to acknowledge their instructions.

But they are made of stronger stuff than I am, again politely telling one guy that you do NOT decide on your own to make an orbit on base at a GAAP airport without instructions from the Tower. After seeing three aircraft attempting to occupy the same space as a result, I called it a day and landed both out of self preservation and hopefully to make the circuit a little less cluttered.

I assume that as skill levels increase, things will be going more smoothly in a week or two.

[AussieNick]

Ha! YMMB is like that pretty much 24/7. if you want to get some quality circuit time, go at night when it's a tad quieter

[K-941]

Sunfish :ok:

Nice comments that I am sure will be well received by the tower team at MB :D

Very decent of you sir! :)

[james michael]

K9

Concur. Great crew.

Sunny

I called it a day and landed both out of self preservation ..... Looking at the link, landing might itself be higher risk than staying airborne :)

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq314/jamesmichaelresearch/MBRI-1.jpg

[Capt Wally]

What's BK like compared to MB?, same deal I would imagine, luckily I don't go into BK too often, phew! I think that the twr boys/girls do a terrific job at MB & all other GAAP AD's, afterall they are the prime area's where the risks are the highest due low experience.


CW

[james michael]

CW

To be fair the slide was a first cut.

The next round of slides will go beyond just the RI data to "RI data compared to traffic data".

Only from that can we get a fair comparison of RI per aircraft movements - it could be that MB is 50% busier than BK and they are both busier than all the others. BK was busy last time I was there. Feel good that EN only averages around 1 per month, the high being 3 in March.

But, until you gather the data and present it to the locals - as was done - nothing happens. A big pat on the back to Glenn M of ASA for his work.

Of course these are all towered airports - where it is not measured, who knows :confused:

[Spotlight]

Hi Sunfish

I mentioned some months ago that I would not allow a child of mine to learn to fly at a GAAP.

[james michael]

OS

I reckon you are bang on the money :ok:

Where international student training occurs your suggestion is gold. The "traffic lights" trial at Tulla seems to be working well as an example of your thinking - but i worry a little that it still passes responsibility to ATC.

It will all get better under privatisation :p

[Carlos169]

I was considering doing my training elsewhere as YMMB is getting too hectic for my liking. Had some very hairy moments on final a few weeks ago.

I was curious if anyone can recommend a good school at Essendon as I work about 5 minutes from there.

[vee1-rotate]

Tis crazy! Was also out there Tuesday, departing for a nav about 1pm and saw 2 go arounds in the space of a few mins while holding short for 17L, as well as aircraft being cleared to land passing over the piano keys. Can get quite hairy...boys and girls in the tower do a fantastic job!

[PlankBlender]

I would appeal to all instructors to make a conscious effort to have heights and circuit patterns flown precisely, and also to hammer it into their pre-solo students that it is vital for their survival (as has recently been all too graphically illustrated by the horrible death of the young student pilot) to stick to the rules and recommended patterns when they are let loose.

It happens far too often unfortunately that circuit legs are extended, shortened, or just flown very sloppily, which creates potential for disaster in a full circuit. If you need to alter the standard pattern, show some airmanship by announcing your attentions. Actually I think this should be part of the required procedure in the circuit at YMMB, and other GAAPs for that matter..

Are there any good diagrams around about the "proper" circuit pattern? Anyone care to scan/publish them here?

I personally think that the Melbourne Visual Pilot Guide should be extended to include full circuit pattern diagrams (only approach paths at the moment) with their corresponding orientation points on the ground, in order to provide a baseline for all schools and visitors. In any case, the VPG should be as much standard fare in every student's flight bag as the VTC.. it's free and I don't see it often enough in the hands of student pilots around YMMB :hmm:

Couldn't agree more with the other posters commending the tower staff, they're super patient and always friendly. :D

[43Inches]

Sounds like things are getting back to what it was like in the '80s.

Bring back the third runway 17/35 to add to the mayhem, that'l make it even more fun for ATC.

How many aircraft were actually in the circuit on this day, not unusual to see 10 regularly at once at Jandakot, especially when its good for solo, also a few barons and senecas in there.

It is actually a procedure to report if conducting a non-standard circuit such as flapless, glide or low level or other.

AIP Ref;

ENR 33.3 Non-standard circuit operations, eg, glide and flapless circuits,
must be advised to ATC, normally with the DOWNWIND report.
This advice will also alert other circuit traffic. ATC must also be
advised of simulated engine failures and asymmetric training in
multi-engined aircraft at the earliest opportunity.

There is no cicuit outlined which will work for all aircraft, whilst most trainers can follow a similar flight path they all have different speeds and climb rates so some variation will occur, throw in a twin doing initial assymetric training and there can be large variations.

Flying accurately is a start but also flying predictably will assist those following and preceding you.

Go-rounds are normal in high traffic, especially with students in the mix, it should be a routine procedure for them to follow and complete sucessfully.

[Cap'n Arrr]

I've heard a couple interesting ways to keep others in the circuit in check (never used any myself)

Pilot: "Confirm the XX ahead is remaining in the circuit"

or (my favourite)

Pilot: "Request clearance to leave and reenter the GAAP"
ATC: "Uh, why would you need that?"
Pilot: "So I can follow the aircraft ahead":E

In all seriousness though, I always tried to drum into students the importance of downwind spacing, and NEVER extending downwind unless absolutely necessary, and if it seems you would have to extend a large amount, to go around on base instead.

[Mark1234]

Firstly, I'll echo the sentiments that the tower at MB is great!

Why is MB so confusing? Personally I find bankstown far worse with different arrival and departure altitudes to remember.. but then I'm based at MB, go figure :)

In either case, prior (or even proper) planning applies.... Get the ATIS - it tells you what runway. You can even take a decent guess from the wind direction; as noted, most of the time it's 17/35. That allows you to figure out where you're going, and what you can't taxi on - shouldn't need traffic lights to tell you where not to go!

I agree that circuits are all over the place.. personal beef is that old saw the cross country circuit.. everyone follows a bit wider until you ought to be reporting to the coldstream ctaf on the way round. I'm inclined to think part of the problem is people being incapable / otherwise untrained in flying anything other than a 'by the numbers' circuit - when it's busy you often need to speed up/slow down to fit in - there's no imperative to fly xxx knots downwind / base.

On the positive side, it *is* good training, and you will stay sharp :ok:

[ReverseFlight]

Just echoing sentiments by PlankBlender. I was watching students this morning doing circuits on 35R and no one seemed to be paying attention to the northerlies carrying them way past the point where they usually turn base. The result is a base leg way south of the normal circuit pattern with the inevitable slow crawl in battling headwinds on a very long final.

Something must be done quickly to bring back our standards which we hold so proudly as a leading international flight training country.

[Sunfish]

What about a long bit of string tied to each aircraft's tail and the other end fastened to the aerodrome reference point?

[nick2007]

I reckon the best place to start circuit training is in a quiter CTAF. There is less going on to overwhelm the student, and they learn to judge acceptable traffic spacing for themselves.

Though I only say that because that's how I was taught. There was still a learning curve when transitioning to a GAAP, but I think starting somewhere quieter eliminates some of the basic mistakes that studnets might otherwise make (runway incursions, RT procedures) which otherwise throw a spanner in the (very busy) works...

[Mark1234]

Surely tying it to the appropriate wingtip would work better - and introduce circular er circuits :ok:

[Capt Wally]

It all boils down to the instructors basicly. You can teach monkies to fly that's the easy bit but to get them to do it correctly/accurately time & time again is where the challenge lies. I wouldn't blame the green students too much, seems a lot simply don't know or realise that flying is a serious business where professionalism doesn't begin when yr at the pointy end of a bus!!
Some of us older drivers will recall instructors being very unhappy if we didn't turn at the exact same spot time & timer again in the circuit.

Just look at the youth of today with 'P' plates on the rd, total disregard for the rd rules mostly & they ought to be the most knowledgeable with it all:ugh:

Went into MB this morning, not a soul in sight, the only way a GAAP AD ought to be:ok:



CW

[Cap'n Arrr]

Just for the record Wally, the only tossers I've seen going down the F3 are all driving BMW/Audi/Merc, and have been off their P's for quite some time. By contrast, the "Yoof" all stick to the speed limit and keep left unless overtaking.

Teaching students about wind allowance can be a bit hit and miss. As much as you try to drill it into them, some will pick up on it faster than others, and at this point they're going to find thinking of things other than "throttle back, speed, flaps, don't crash" a little tricky. Having said that, many people (dual flights included) seem to find that if the circuit is bigger, they have more time to think, and this is where it's important to try and knock it into them that, except where necessary because of traffic, the circuit is NOT to be enlarged.

[Capt Wally]

well 'arr' am not sure what planet yr from but the 'tossers' down here just seem to wear hats & drive Volvo's:), the youth 'think' they know it all, girls seem to be the worst offenders too.

Don't instructors teach students in the circuit to turn etc when over a famil land mark? This concept is great when yr as green as a blade of grass until experience kicks in & things like wind drift can better be managed.



CW

[43Inches]

Never taught students to turn over landmarks, this just made it hard when they go to an unfamiliar airfield. I found it always best to teach position relative to landing point and runway, seemed to work all the time.

As with navigation select land forms that help hold a track while the head is looking outside after the correct heading has been adopted.

[Tee Emm]

ENR 33.3 Non-standard circuit operations, eg, glide and flapless circuits,

Why on earth is a glide approach or a flapless published in AIP as non standard circuit? After all the circuit height and width are the same as a "normal" circuit. The speeds are the same as a "normal" circuit. The glide speed on final in a Cessna or Warrior is the same as a power on speed. Aand the flapless approach speed is no more than six knots higher than a full flap approach speed. I presume we are talking about a typical light single like a 152, 172, Warrior etc - not a Citation or Chieftan type.

For a flapless you turn base at the same point as in a normal circuit and allow for less drag by reducing the power earlier on base leg. For a practice glide approach you vary the point at which you close the throttle on base leg.

For a glide approach If you are No 3 behind someone downwind then you have no choice except to extend the downwind leg to achieve spacing and again close the throttle on base or even on final when you are certain you can make the field with throttle at idle and simply glide in. What is more straight forward than that.

If of course you desire to do a practice dead stick landing at Moorabbin - in other words a forced landing - then that is something else altogether because it may mean cutting someone off or turning inside someone already on final. Practice dead stick forced landings have no place in a busy circuit - leave that stuff to the training area. A glide approach is simply another means of landing - in fact all flying schools that used Tiger Moths did nothing else but circuits and glide approaches. For a powered approach you did the glide until short final then introduced a trickle of power which then became a powered approach.

Back to the flapless approach in a Cessna 172 or Warrior which is a non-event. There is no need to carry out a long downwind because it stuffs up other people's spacing and people lose more money in dual costs. Most of the time a flapless in these aircraft can be done with closed throttle because of less drag - meaning long low approaches are unnecessary. To put that in perspective the flapless in a 737 follows exactly the same glide slope angle as a normal full flap ILS approach. The normal glide approach angle of a Cessna 172 in nil wind is around seven degrees compared with around 5-6 degrees for a powered approach at 1300 rpm and 60 knots.

[43Inches]

Unfortunately Tee M PA28s and 172s are not the only trainers in the circuit and some others don't glide that well, that is they won't make it to the runway from a usual base/downwind position that is practiced by most schools. Some require substantial variation from the normal circuit and therfor a different circuit path.

The problem with the end of your argument is that in the training area you can not complete the glide to ground level and therefor the exercise. What can be done at the GAAP is then complete the exercise from the position it would have been terminated in the training area to a complete landing.

[downunderscouser]

I'm of the belief that a glide approach should only be undertaken when there is no traffic ahead of you in the circuit that you would meet if you turned early base. Ie not on base ahead and not on final.

A call should be made as early as possible on downwind to the tower requesting a glide approach and the turn be made when roughly abeam the threshold of the runway. With glide speed set this should take you to the threshold at a fair height to make a safe landing. The turn to final will be more like a curving approach to the runway. Somewhat reminiscent of a WW2 aircraft carrier approach that the British perfected with the Corsair after the Americans initially withdrew it because of poor visibility on final over the nose. The British came up with a curved approach on final keeping the airfield in sight.

[Sunfish]

Wot the scouser said, plus a deal of side slip or flap if available once you are sure you have made it over the fence.



.....and you "request" it when you are training and "require" it if it is for real.....