Level busts

[veloo maniam]

Hello Aviators..with your TCAS on why do we still have level busts?
Is it fatigue? cheers:ok:

[ron83]

TCAS used for collision avoidance not for the prevention of level busts

[veloo maniam]

Agreed Ron....descending from F360 to F320 initially.Tfc for further descent
is xxx at F300. Still acft goes thru F316 b4 climbing back to F320.Tfc is right below.Doesnt the TCAS show the TFC below?cheers:ok:

[Dont Hang Up]

....descending from F360 to F320 initially.Tfc for further descent
is xxx at F300. Still acft goes thru F316 b4 climbing back to F320.Tfc is right below.Doesnt the TCAS show the TFC below?


You kind of answer your own question with that description.

Level busts happen. Either TCAS or an alert ATCO shouts, and the situation is (hopefully) recovered safely.

What does not happen is for flight crew to manage level change against the TCAS display. TCAS is a safety net. It is not a navigation aid, and use as such is strongly discouraged.

[ron83]

as above said,TCAS safety net,not used for navigational purpouses,your question was why level busts still happen,than you give example of a potential RA.I can give you another example, there is no other traffic, ATCO clears a/c abc to FL 320, abc goes through 316,how on earth TCAS gonna prevent level bust??? TCAS- used as a last resort to prevent collision...

[veloo maniam]

AirNoServicesAustralia...tq for ur replies.sounds more educational.:ok:

[eastern wiseguy]

Veloo......have a look here

EUROCONTROL - Level Bust (http://www.eurocontrol.be/safety/public/standard_page/Level_bust.html)

[Mister Geezer]

Just a small point but if ATC advise crew of traffic information, then the response of 'We have it on TCAS' is not to be used according to guff from Eurocontrol that was published a while back. To be quite honest saying that is just as useful as saying that the Pope is indeed a Catholic and just eats up time on the frequency.

[veloo maniam]

Eastern wiseguy..thnxs for the great website.:ok:

[anotherthing]

ANSA - I have to disagree with you, and agree with Mr G!!

The amount of times a pilot in the LTMA has told me he/she has traffic I have called on TCAs, but actually mis-idented it is too huge a number to count.

I am calling traffic, I don't care if the pilot has it on TCAS - a simple 'Roger' will suffice... Similarly, the amount of pilots who say "Approaching FL... looking for further" then respond with "we have that on TCAS" when I tell them about traffic a mile away, 1000' above their cleared level is very annoying.

TCAS is not an air traffic tool, it is a safety/separation tool. It can be useful in assisting pilots with some situational awareness, as long as the pilots understand it's limitations - especially in Azimuth.

There is a brilliant example in the NERC training department of a pilot trying to second guess ATC by using TCAS in the azimuth and adjusting heading slightly to miss an aircraft as he thought ATC were cutting it fine.

What he actually did was erode an estimated 15 miles separation into less than 5... resulting in causing huge confusion to the ATCO (an also a temporary suspension of their license until the incident was investigated) :ugh:

[Spitoon]

TCAS is not an air traffic tool, it is a safety/separation tool.Agree completely that it's not an air traffic tool. It is what is usually referred to as a safety net - that is, something that saves the day when all of the normal systems have failed for some reason. Consequently I find it hard to describe it as a separation tool....because that's what ATC is. I suggest that it is better described as a collision avoidance tool.

[anotherthing]

Spitoon,

a bad choice of words on my part - by saying 'separation tool' I meant as a last ditch safety measure!

[veloo maniam]

A week ago crew of A320 reported traffic on TCAS reciprocal 25NM.
At the moment the A320 was passing F325 for F360.
Traffic was a chopper at 2000ft. indeed reciprocal.
Can someone throw some light on how the TCAS picked up
this low level traffic?:ugh:

[fotheringay]

A week ago crew of A320 reported traffic on TCAS reciprocal 25NM.
At the moment the A320 was passing F325 for F360.
Traffic was a chopper at 2000ft. indeed reciprocal.
Can someone throw some light on how the TCAS picked up
this low level traffic?:ugh:Possibly the aircraft was receiving a TA only as the low flying aircraft was squawking with no Mode C.

[Radarspod]

Or the chopper was offering a duff Mode C value that looked like a potential conflict - but scenario in last more likely.