Can you refuel a rotary in flight?

[RJM]

First, I drive a car not an aircraft...

I was wondering: can a helicopter be refuelled in flight? It would have to be by another rotary, I suppose.

On the other hand, are there helitankers to refuel fixed wings? (wait a minte, silly question, forget that one..)

[DenizD]

of course they can click on the link, YouTube - AR Flightdeck CH-53 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GiIH1NHPKA)

It actually pretty cool, until there is too much cyclic forward and the rotor blades make contact with the extended fuel probe...then things can get messy!:8
YouTube - Helicopter refueling accident (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2fSjHghubc)

[darrenphughes]

Yeah, check out this pic on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CH-53E_cockpit.jpg). I've never heard of helo to helo refueling. I'd imagine the tail rotor would get in the way.

edit; you beat me to it DenizD, was off looking for a pic.

[What Limits]

If you google image of the MH 47 you will see that it is fitted with an AAR probe.

[Um... lifting...]

Many naval helicopters can, and are, refueled from ships while in a high hover. Usually there is a reason they can't land aboard to do fuel, such as being too big or the sea state is too nasty.
YouTube - HIFR Heilocopter Inflight Refueling... NAVY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQhVVYSa7v8&feature=related)

[Nigel Osborn]

In the 1964 Farnborough airshow a Wessex 5 trailed a fuel hose from its cabin which was picked up by the winch on the following Wessex 5 using a crappling hook.. All this was done within the airfield boundry......no problem!:ok:

[griffothefog]

Just be careful when you step out to undo the petrol cap :E

[serf]

I know of at least one that has taken off during a RR refuel, does that count?

[RotorDompteur]

From another thread:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/135616-eh101-merlin-29.html#post3923450

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh71/vicky10_photos/YK6R01751.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh71/vicky10_photos/YK6R01771.jpg

And when you just want to show off:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_CH-53s_Refueling_w_2_HMMWVs_Underslung_lg.jpg


RD

[misterbonkers]

all that effort to refuel 4 Hummers? I knew they were gas guzzlers but not that bad!

[Lt.Fubar]

Wonder what is the record for helicopter non-stop flight.

I know about the two HH-3Es flying across Atlantic to Le Bourget air show in the 60's - the flight took 30 hours. Both then flew to Thailand and operated as CSAR machines, and one of those helicopters was crashed during Son Tay Raid on 21st November 1970. Don't know what happened to the other one.

http://lsm.crt.state.la.us/aviation/refuel.jpg

[Runway101]

Would hate air refueling - I usually need to go to the loo when I am low on fuel.

Are they trained to hold back or is there something I don't know?

[skadi]

Are they trained to hold back or is there something I don't know?


In the good old Seaking ( Behind the rack housing Hydraulics etc ), you could use a small hose with a silver sinkhole for that. But the engineers didnt like that very much...

skadi

[ShyTorque]

It's even more fun at night, lights out, on night vision goggles. Been there. The static discharge spark to the basket makes you jump a bit, the first time you see it in the dark. :eek:

;)

[Phil77]

...and sometimes things don't go as planned! :E

See DennisD's post:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/345041-can-you-refuel-rotary-flight.html#post4427148

EDITED: due to blindness disregard my post... (thanks Monk!) :ugh:

[Hedge36]

HIFR.

http://hedge36.smugmug.com/photos/141347175_D4BA5-M.jpg

The trick is to not burn the fuel faster than you can get it on board.

[Brilliant Stuff]

I take it they have a fuel cap inside the cabin then, yes?

[Um... lifting...]

Brilliant Stuff-

Depends somewhat on the machine. On the HH-3F, there was a standard single-point receptacle on the outside of the fuselage below the sliding door. Awkward to say the least. Crewman lay on his belly for the hookup.

On the HH-65, there is a lift-up door in the deck of the cabin just inside the door with a special HIFR single-point receptacle (it fits the nozzle end of the Navy standard HIFR rig which is seen in the photo Hedge 36 so graciously provided). Most naval helicopters have a similar arrangement.

It is very important that the hoist operator/winchman get the procedures correct. Basically, it's (probably varies slightly by type/model/series):
Lower the bare hook to the deck, where it is grounded and the rig attached (as per the picture);
Raise the rig and two-block the hoist hook into the stop;
Open the deck door and positively fit the nozzle to the receptacle;
and here's the important bit...
Open the ball valve on the HIFR rig at the nozzle;
Give the ship the 'ready for pumping signal'.

There is an emergency breakaway function on the HIFR rig. The hose will part and the ends will close at the large coupling you see immediately below the hoist hook, leaving the saddle and a couple meters of hose attached to the aircraft... this is considered better than ripping the fuel fitting out of the aircraft. Depending upon the rig, it may or may not have a manual breakaway in addition to an automatic breakaway which is dependent upon hose tension.

To stop, essentially reverse the procedure. Here's why that procedural thing is important...

Some dozen or so years ago, when I was involved in this sort of thing, some lads were out doing a practice HIFR. If memory serves, it was at night. When the pilot informed the hoist operator that he had enough fuel and to secure, the hoist operator made the mistake of closing the ball valve in the HIFR rig before signaling the ship to stop pumping. There was a pinhole leak in one of the fittings upstream of the nozzle. While fuel was flowing into the aircraft, the static pressure at the nozzle wasn't sufficient to cause the leak to be (it being night) noticeable or significant (the pump is generally 12-15m below the height to which the fuel is being pumped), but as soon as that valve closed, the static pressure in the hose went up, fuel was atomized up and under the hoist operator's visor, all over the inside of the cabin. So, here you are, in a hovering helicopter, at sea, at night, attached to the ship by a heavy fuel-filled hose, the hoist operator can't see, there's fuel spraying all over the inside of the machine and possibly into some of the sensitive hot bits up top, and the pump is still running.:eek: Nobody's idea of a good time.
Here is where my recollection grows fuzzy. I believe the deck crew was on the case and shut the pump off. I also believe the hoist operator operated the emergency breakaway. Landed safely and many lessons learned.
Fueling in flight, whether from an airplane or a ship... not for the timid.:=

[TheMonk]

Does anyone want to tell Phil77 about DennisD's post or should I? lol

Monk

[Bravo73]

And then, of course, there are the stories of refuelling H500s in flight. (With jerry cans whilst standing on the skids, if you were wondering.:eek:)

Apocryphal, no doubt (I hope)...

[mini]

Or the Mi8 gig with the 205 liter drums and a hand pump to "top up" during flight... (over water) shudder :sad:

[Senior Pilot]

In the good old Seaking ( Behind the rack housing Hydraulics etc ), you could use a small hose with a silver sinkhole for that. But the engineers didnt like that very much...

Since it vented outside the hull, it wasn't an issue: used it many times ;)

Although there is a Rotorhead who had an A25 raised in his name after claims that the P Tube was too small: ISTR he was presented with a suitably mounted plaque on leaving the Squadron :p

[zorab64]

And I remember a Squadron disembarkation when somebody used it about 10 miles from landfall and arrival at a refuelling base - the Engineer Officer, thinking he was being conscientious, noticed a slight "leak" whilst waiting for re-fuel, and decided to "taste" the drops as part of his investigation.:eek:

As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing - but all the junior NCOs & aircrew (who did know which holes on the aircraft were which) had a good laugh!!:}

[Senior Pilot]

If the deck is too small for the helicopter, it is usually a better option than returning to Mother and being off task for the transit ;)

[Um... lifting...]

Sea state, weight, aircraft footprint are the big ones. Landing gear malfunction is another. Fouled deck (cargo or whatever else). Lots of reasons, but they generally can be boiled down to the aircraft 'can't' land. Probably an exception or two to that.

[wobble2plank]

I remember once briefing a bunch of sea cadets that the small silver topped tube next to the broom cupboard was an 'emergency' communications system similar to that seen on WW2 destroyers in case of intercom failure.

The Obs and the crewie played along beautifully.

Oh how we giggled :E

HIFR was always a pain in the ar$e, not only because it prolonged the flight without the chance to re-stock on 'cheesy, hammy eggies' but also because many of the transfer pumps on the smaller frigates were too weak.

This meant that the hover height required in order to get the fuel flowing put you beautifully into the recirculating downwash from the rotors. Resulting in quite a few troublesome pop surges due to salt water ingestion and salt build up on the IGV's!

Ahhh, the good ol' days :D

[Senior Pilot]

it prolonged the flight without the chance to re-stock on 'cheesy, hammy eggies'

Isn't that what the winch is for :hmm:

[wobble2plank]

Sadly not since the mid 90's when the ACRB went 'orders only'!

Cost cutting, always hits where it hurts! :sad:

Though I did winch up a bag of live lobsters from a rather kind Norwegian fisherman once, always knew there was a reason for carrying that blackboard in the back. :}

W2P

[nimby]

If you don't like HIFR from a ship ... How about buddy refuelling a Harrier from a Helicopter (Merlin)?

Studied & OK, but the idea got canned when the aircrew heard about it. Can't think why :}

[500e]

Bravo73
Will ask CFI for demo:E
I always luck out on the good bits.
.

[bast0n]

In the 1964 Farnborough airshow a Wessex 5 trailed a fuel hose from its cabin which was picked up by the winch on the following Wessex 5 using a crappling hook.. All this was done within the airfield boundry......no problem!

I was there too. The WX5 had no internal fuelling point and the pressure refueling point was too far from the door to reach from the cabin - unless you wanted to gravity refuel. Unwise in flight!

I fell off my Triumph Tina scooter owing to a surfeit of Horses Neck and perhaps the same malaise affected your recollections!!!:):)

PS why does my quote not turn up in blue?

[RJM]

Thanks very much for the responses. There's always an answer (or at least an educated guess) on Pprune!