AA flight diverts to BOS

[Raas767]

AA flight 63 diverted to Boston today enroute from Paris to Miami after the passengers subdued a man who was "trying to light a fuse in his shoe"!
We have definately entered some obscure surreal parallel universe! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[The Guvnor]

I was given to understand that he bit a flight attendant - there were also rumours (which I would tend to discount) that an IED was found on him (which ties in with your exploding shoe story).

[stalling attitude]

according to the BBC news just now he had explosives in his shoe and he was trying to light a fuse attached to his shoelace. they also said that he was british using a passport issued 3 days ago in the name of john reed.

[RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo]

yes, they are saying C4 in shoe, travelling on British passport, "large man of middle eastern apperence". Man travelled WITHOUT any luggage

Tried to ignite device, overpowered by pax sedated by doctors.

Be careful out there, this could be another one of them bad, bad days

was flight direct from paris or did it stop at LHR?

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo ]</p>

[Huck]

BOSTON - A Paris to Miami flight was diverted to Logan International Airport this afternoon after a passenger wearing shoes containing an "improvised explosive" attempted to ignite his shoes.

Passengers and crew members of American Airlines Flight 63 helped subdue the man, who became violent when confronted.

The man appeared to be an Arab carrying a false passport issued in Belgium three weeks ago in the name of Richard Reid. WBZ-TV (Ch. 4) reported him as being 28-years-old.

"I'm told the flight attendant was drawn to him by the smell of sulfur from a lit match, and then challenged him as to what he was doing," said Thomas Kinton, interim executive director of the Massachusetts Port Authority, which runs the airport.

[Raas767]

This couldn't come at a worse time. Just as passengers were getting their confidence, then this happens. Even more importantly, how are we going to defend ourselves against something like this?

[Squawk 8888]

If anything is to be learned from this incident, it's that pax with an instinct for self-preservation are far more effective than the farce known as airport screening. Pretty soon they'll be strip-searching everybody.

[Bright-Ling]

See the BBC website at:

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1725000/1725627.stm" target="_blank">AA BOS Flight diverted</a>

[Raas767]

Guv.
How do you know? Besides, that's hardly the point.
The psychological impact of terroism is almost as effective as if they would have succeeded in blowing up or damaging the jet.
Strip searching passengers may indeed be in the future.
In any case it is certainly not a fun time to be in this business. Oh, I forgot Guv you don't actually fly airplanes do you?

[AtlPax]

I suppose clunky shoes, along with nail files, etc, will now be banned. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Kudos to the flight attendant who noticed the sulfur smell - I believe a big reward should be in order for this individual. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Guern]

As he seems so keen on blowing himself up I suggest taking him to somewhere out of harm's way for everyone else and lighting the fuse.

[Raas767]

That would only make him happy and complete his supposed trip to his waiting 7 virgins!
Who are these people, and how have they gone unnoticed for so long?

[Sir Algernon Scruggs]

It looks like once again we may have another breach in security because of penny pinching and airlines paying only lip service to pax screening. Had the airlines employed and trained qualified people to do the pre-screening as El Al do instead of relying on poorly trained check-in staff asking the usual "did you pack your bag yourself and could anyone have tampered with it" questions then the odds of someone travelling without luggage and with other possible profile pointers would never have reached the check-in desk, never mind boarding the aircraft.

Until airlines take this issue seriously and if necessary pass the cost on to the pax then all the 'smoke and mirrors' that the current attempts at cosmetic security will count for nothing. They need to employ highly trained people who know what to ask and what to look for. It will cost and it will mean a bit more time at the airport but when will the airlines realise that they need to invest in this because it only takes one incident to lose them more than the initial cost!

<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/attack/2001/10/01/elal-usat.htm" target="_blank">This article from USA Today</a> is a good example:

[quote]Unfriendly skies are no match for El Al

By Vivienne Walt, <a href="http://www.usatoday.com" target="_blank">USA TODAY</a>

JERUSALEM — "Has this luggage ever been used by someone else?" asked the El Al security official, a woman with a soft smile and long ponytail at Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris before my departure to Tel Aviv last weekend. She eyed my weathered black bag, sitting on the floor next to a cubicle used for body searches and interrogations. "My husband sometimes uses the suitcase," I said. "Where has he flown?" she pressed. "Once to the Persian Gulf, I think," I replied. That might have set off alarm bells in her mind, but the "selector," as screeners for Israel's national airline are known, had meanwhile found a bigger problem.

Examining each stamp in my passport, she froze at a page with Arabic lettering.

"Where's this for?" she asked. "Syria," I said — one of Israel's bitterest enemies. I hurriedly explained: "I'm a journalist. I went there for the president's funeral."

She summoned a muscular male colleague.

"You traveling alone?" he asked. I replied I was.

"But I saw you talking to someone in line," he said. "Who is he?"

Indeed, to pass the time, I had exchanged a few words with a passenger standing behind me in the long security line about five minutes before. I barely remembered the exchange.

But like everything else when flying El Al, my idle chatter had not gone unnoticed.

So it goes when traveling with the world's most security-conscious airline.

For Americans considering an end to free and easy flying in the USA, El Al provides a glimpse of what might lie ahead after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Having lived for decades with bombs and suicide attacks, Israel designed the industry's most impenetrable flight security more than 20 years ago. Officials say it is a stunning success. Despite several wars and endless conflict at home, El Al's sole hijacking was in 1968, before the system began.

Other catastrophes have been averted since. One bomb was found in 1979 in Zurich in the bag of a German passenger who looked nervous: He had thought he had been hired to smuggle diamonds. Another bomb was discovered a few years ago in the bag of a pregnant English passenger in London, placed there by her Palestinian lover, whose identity security officials had checked beforehand.

The recent suicide hijackings could never have occurred on El Al, officials say. "Those men's names would be on our list," says Shlomo Dror, a Defense Ministry spokesman who helped design El Al's system. Staff also easily would have noticed that the hijackers traveling first class did not look wealthy enough to pay the fare, he said.

For years, the airline industry has lauded El Al's security. Yet until now, no American company has considered copying the elaborate system, which cost El Al about $90 million last year. In 1987, Dror drafted a lengthy security plan for Pan Am Airlines, suggesting profiling passengers, opening bags and hiring professional security staff. The company rejected it as costly and intrusive. One year later, a bomb on a Pan Am flight to New York exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing 270 people.

"American security has been sleeping well for years," says Beni Tal, head of a security consulting firm in Tel Aviv, who has worked on government security. "Now they have woken up forever."

Ironically, after a year of heavy losses, El Al's bookings have soared since Sept. 11, with many passengers too fearful to fly other airlines. In stark contrast to other airlines, El Al shelved its plans to lay off 500 people and withdraw some of its Boeing 747-200 aircraft.

Still, it is not clear that El Al's security can be duplicated. El Al's flight load — about 40 flights a day to about 51 destinations — is minuscule compared with any major American airline. The largest U.S. carrier, American Airlines, by comparison, had about 2,400 daily flights before Sept. 11. And until now, Americans would have resisted the lengthy time involved in the screening process, which can even result in flight delays until the questioning is complete.

Despite their current anxieties, Americans also might balk at El Al-style ethnic profiling. Staff scrutinize the passengers' names, dividing them into low-risk (Israeli or foreign Jews), medium-risk (non-Jewish foreigners) and extremely high-risk travelers (anyone with an Arabic name). These people automatically are taken into a room for body and baggage checks and lengthy interrogation. Single women also are considered high-risk, for fear they might be used by Palestinian lovers to carry bombs.

To sift out who is who, screeners usually begin by asking passengers whether they understand any Hebrew, which most Jews do. Officials argue that such blatant discrimination is necessary.

"We don't ask the same questions to everyone; there's a surprise element so people can't prepare their answers," says El Al spokesman Nachman Klieman, adding that they don't reveal many of their security secrets publicly.

In fact, El Al's security kicks in long before the passenger will notice. Call an El Al office in any city to book a ticket, and your name will be checked against a computer list of terrorist suspects compiled by Interpol, the FBI, Shin Bet (Israel's intelligence service) and others.

My Paris travel agent insisted that the El Al flight on which I had reserved a seat did not exist. That is because El Al changes its schedule so frequently — to foil terrorist planning — that some agencies find it hard to keep up.

Once you board, up to five armed undercover agents will travel with you in strategic aisle seats, ready for attack. Furthermore, like many Israelis, cabin crews are former soldiers in the Israeli military who have received combat training. The cockpit door, of reinforced steel, is locked from the inside before passengers board and is opened only after everyone has disembarked at their destination. No matter what's going on in the rest of the plane, it is never opened during flight.

"Our pilots go to the bathroom," says Klieman, without confirming whether bathrooms are inside the cockpit.

Perhaps surprisingly, El Al's pilots are not armed. "I hear the American pilots want to have arms now, which I think is a bad idea," Tal says. "They could go outside the cockpit and hurt people. You cannot fly a plane and carry arms."

Even for regular El Al customers, the security process never feels comfortable, and the pre-flight probing is sure to make you feel somehow suspect. Watching closely for contradictions, the screener dissected my typically haphazard travel plan as though it were a lethal conspiracy.

"Why did you buy your ticket at the last minute?" the screener asked. "I changed my plans," I said.

"Why are you carrying wrapped boxes?" "I like to bring chocolates when people invite me over for dinner," I said.

"Who chose them in the store?" she asked. "I did," I replied.

By El Al's standards, my screening was light — only 10 minutes of questioning by two well-paid officials with full military training. It ended with one of them locking all the zippers on my suitcase with plastic ties. "Open these when you get to your hotel," she instructed before sending me to the check-in desk.

El Al's process is so time-consuming that passengers are required to arrive three hours before all flights. Passengers can be interrogated separately by three different screeners.

And questioners ask passengers where they purchased their tickets to compare their answers with ticket codes representing the purchase location.

A lot happens behind the scenes, too. Once luggage moves from the check-in desk to the conveyer belt, it is put in a pressurized box that detonates any explosive before the bag is loaded on the plane, Dror says. No unaccompanied bags are allowed. Those bags remain behind.

Bags transferring from another airline to El Al have to be checked through security again.

Security officers watch over cleaning crews while they service the aircraft in foreign airports.

After the intense security, once on board I felt some relief, knowing that I could drop off to sleep without a care while plainclothes agents with firearms sat nearby, wide awake in the dark.<hr></blockquote>

[mach78]

Hey Raas,
Unfortunately there is a name for them-Sleepers, who keep low profile until activated.
Question is, who are the others?

I can give you some idea what they look like, but i'd be a rascist if I did.

[Guern]

But at least letting him light the fuse or helping him to do so away from anyone else (after the plane has landed) would stop anyone innocent being injured. If he is so keen to blow himself up why let him live to try again another time when he may not be caught! After all the courts may release him in a few years time to try again.

Anyone who want's to kill innocent PAX deserves what he gets. I am sure his fellow PAX would have liked to deal with him when they landed!

[Gspot]

It is clearly time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Forget political correctness, forget hurting someone feelings, it is this left wing, tread carefully, don't rock the boat attitude, fuelled by scum sucking, bottom feeding, ambulence chasing attourneys, that has contributed in no small way to the position we are in today. Profile these murderers.

If a team of catholic Nuns had been responsible for the WTC attrocity then every Catholic Nun who tries to get on an aircraft should have to go through intense security screening. If they were of middle eastern origin then scrutinize the middle easterners.

The policy may not earn you votes - so what?

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is probably a duck!!!

Stop the inane searching of flight crews and making us undress in full public view simply to dress up the apparent security for the flying public. Stop using the opportunity to have a cheap feel of a Flight Atttendants breasts, stop stealing our nailfiles, stop running your nasty hands up and down the legs of a 25 year old lady passenger who is wearing a mini skirt and tell us that the FAA has told you to do this. Most of the security screeners can't spell FAA or CAA anyway!!

DO YOUR JOB - PROTECT AND SERVE

Enough is enough

[HotDog]

Semtex in shoes, what next? Will passengers be issued with airline slippers prior to boarding and their shoes stowed in the hold? That at least won't bother a lot of Aussie pax who like to travel barefoot in shorts and singlet. :)

[Raas767]

Les Couilles de Chien. (what does that mean?)

Anyway, well said. Security is a @#$* joke and we all know it!
<img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Barry Fields]

Hopefully some of the pax managed to lay the boot into this piece of crud.

Summary execution would appear to be the best option for these clowns. No trial - just a bullet to the back of the head.

One less psycho to worry about.

[7times7]

What puzzles me is why did this guy behaved so indiscreetly? The smell of a match stick lighting up worst still when it goes off is a dead give away wouldn't it? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

I guess he had to resort to primitive trigger mechanism.

[HotDog]

Les Couilles de Chien in English, means "Dog's Balls". :) :)

[Mick Stability]

The use of det-cord and P4 ignited by a match is a logical way around airport metal detectors, but it could have been stopped by X-raying the shoes. I find it no surprise that the departure airport was CDG, not much surprises me about that place these days. They’re going to have to stop running it like a farmyard and more like an international airport.

Terrorists fear the chance of discovery and public disclosure of failure. All they need is the risk that at a particular airport they are likely to be rumbled and they’ll go elsewhere. We need to enhance scanning equipment without delay and use sniffer dogs at all airports.

This is vindication of BALPA’s assertion that security stops at the aircraft side, after that your in a survival situation.

I have to agree with ‘les testicules canin’, the public humiliation of airline crews at security does nothing to enhance the professional image of the trade, and indeed my lead passengers to think that a particular airline is being singled out as a security threat. Crews need to be screened in a discreet crew channel away from the public gaze.

Thank God we stopped this one, well done to the crew and particularly to the very brave stewardess.

[MissChief]

Careful people, the suspect was not an Arab, according to news reports from AP. Some good stories of pax intervention there too, which suggest a positive spin from the media initially.
However just wait till the UK press/BBC get hold of the story...doom and gloom all round, a national speciality.

[747FOCAL]

This individual was obviously minus any planning and was most surely helped. So many, lucky for the PAX, stupid mistakes...... Thank God this guy was a true ****** moron.

I don't understand his choice in time to detonate his device. Why not on the way out of Paris or inbound over Miami? Out where he was trying to light it we may never have known what happened to the plane if a sudden infight breakup occured from an explosion.

He could have gotten up and went to the biffy and had all the time in the world to set that thing off. Why a match? Anybody that knows C4 knows that a 9 volt battery can set it off.

I think this is going to come down to a rogue wacko that had the conection to get a crude device, maybe plans off the internet, and wanted his 15 minutes of fame. But, when it came to actually killing himself he couldn't do it.

If he had set it off on early takeoff out of Paris the fire and explosion from the fuel would most certainly hide what happened and we would fool ourselves into thinking the tail fell off from wake turbulence. But, he waited until he was over the ocean where pictures of the scattered wreckage would bring sparse terror compared to city blocks on fire like an attack.

If this had been planned by a trained mind we would not have had such an excellent Christmas present of such a happy ending. That sure is a nice pic of him on CNN. Sure wish it showed him with a black eye and a fat lip.

If I where one of the passengers I would be getting a checkup tonight. Who knows what he may have released into the cabin just in case.

Kinda babbled around there. Just had to get something out with how disgusted I am over these heartless cowards.

[Navy_Adversary]

On a Transatlantic flight a PAX pays approximately sixty pounds taxes etc, surely this amount is high enough to expect reasonable security at the airport

[The Guvnor]

I note that my second post, which raised doubts as to whether or not this was a genuine terrorist attempt, has been deleted. Not too sure why this was - there was nothing in there that wouldn't be known to the average squaddie or who had read the AAIB report on PA103!

There has been the usual uninformed speculation in the press that C4 and its East Bloc cousin, Semtex, are undetectable. This is not the case. C4 is composed of 91% RDX (a nitrite derivative compound) and 9% plastic binder. Many European airports - and certainly all BAA ones - are equipped with nitrite detectors and I've also seen them in use in the States.

I suspect we will hear over the next few days that this in fact was a hoax; that the individual arrested has no link with any terror group; but rather has a long history of mental illness.

The reason your previous posts were deleted was because we all know how 'expert' you are in explosives and weapons but we don't need another thread diverging off on a seperate technical discussion. It is bad enough trying to monitor threads like this with all the 'rednecks' and their instant xenophobic 'solutions'. I leave some of those because they are not worth the effort removing them as long as they die down. Please do not try and impress us with your technical knowledge of C$ (sic) or the content of last months 'Guns & Ammo'.

[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]

(Edited coz we all know what happens when you hold down the cap key when you type '4') :)

[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]</p>

[Scottie Dog]

I agree on the fact that numerous taxes are charged on an air ticket, however none if any relate to security charges.

America has always charged some of the silliest of taxes that could ever be levied on an air ticket - Customs Inspection, Agriculture Inspection etc. Now we have the UK taxes and airport PFC (Passenger Facility Charge - which use to be part of the airfare and then was shown seperately by the airlines to avoid having to pay travel agents commission). At the end of the day let the governments do the collection, let them organise the security and let them sort out the aoolocation of these fees internally.

Scottie Dog

[Saab 2000 Driver]

Without trying to get too xenophobic, but it does appear that the individual (?) is of Middle Eastern origin. Suprise, suprise... ? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Picture available at : <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/23/plane.investigation/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/23/plane.investigation/index.html</a>

[Wedge]

747FOCAL - some good points I was thinking the same thing. Why did he not wait until the a/c was on finals over a built-up area when all the cabin crew and pax are safely seated and belted? From that point of view it looks like 'amateur night' but we can't rule out the possibility that this was Al-Quaeda or related group attempting to retaliate for the war on terror.

The worrying (but not surprising) thing was how easily he got the explosives on board. I don't remember ever passing a sniffer dog at security, not a lot of metal in the device, you can see how easy it could be.

I think the Arab terrorists have realised that it could be prudent to travel under an assumed non-Arab name (he was carrying a British passport in the name of Richard Reid). I also agree however that if you are Arabic looking you should expect more thorough security at airports.

I think that whoever he is this was a very, very close call - designed to coincide with Christmas. I think that this will really harm public confidence in air travel even further. Expect airline shares to fall tomorrow......

[knows]

Some good observations here;
Forgive me for repeating them, but the comments are so true.

“Kudos to the flight attendant who noticed the sulphur smell - I believe a big reward should be in order for this individual”

And “Who are these people, and how have they gone unnoticed for so long?”

“Forget political correctness, forget hurting someone feelings, it is this left wing, tread carefully, don't rock the boat attitude, fuelled by scum sucking, bottom feeding, ambulance chasing attorneys, that has contributed in no small way to the position we are in today. Profile these murderers.”

Personally, I hope that the bravery of the crew and passengers who tackled this ****er are appropriately rewarded. They are heroes.
Lets ensure that they receive massive financial reward and true recognition.

[SevenFiftySeven.]

Without giving away any specific security information, I have a question to ask...

Is it really possible to blow up a 767 with a heelfull of firework material from the inside of the cabin? I would understand that it were, if the explosive were near the fuel tanks, but surely the explosion from inside the cabin would have been very small, leading at worst to rapid decompression?

Just wondering <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[I. M. Esperto]

According to THE BOSTON GLOBE, the GX-4 explosives could have blown a large hole in the fuselage, causing an almost certain crash. This was by an explosive expert from the FBI.

Saab Driver - "The man appeared to be an Arab carrying a false passport issued in Belgium three weeks ago in the name of Richard Reid. WBZ-TV (Ch. 4) reported him as being 28-years-old."

The Boston Globe Article said quite plainly that Richard Reid is a JAMAICAN. The photo shows a man with a hood, which covered his dreadlock hair style.

Jamaicans also typically have English sounding names, and scumbag is 6'4", which is much taller than the average Arab.

Celebrate Diversity!

[Huck]

ABC is reporting he is Sri Lankan.

He would have been profiled in the states - no checked luggage, one way ticket. Happens to me regularly.

[bblank]

There has been some speculation that this guy's stupidity precludes him being part of some organized effort. It seems to me that when you recruit suicide bombers you can't be too choosy.

According to the CNN article that Saab2k refers to upthread, the FAA issued a security bulletin on December 11. It warned that the U.S. government had received information "that suggests the possibility of terrorist hijackings of airliners from either the U.S. or Europe. We are concerned that hijackers may attempt to smuggle disassembled weapons on board an airliner by hiding weapon components within their shoes." This incident and the intelligence may well be unrelated but it is discouraging to think that this happened when security was supposedly heightened.

[Tosh McCaber]

Why did he not just go to the toilet, where a) he would have been undetected and b) would have plenty time to light his matches. Thank God he seems to have been too crazy to think that out!

[Man-on-the-fence]

With reference to this particular ******* tosspot lighting the fuse in the lavvy.

Surely the smoke detectors in there are sensitive enough that the alarm would go off as soon as he struck his match.

Just a thought.

[Zulu]

I think if you're lighting the fuse of a bomb in the toilet, the smoke detector is the least of your worries...

[747FOCAL]

Why do we keep calling him a Hyjacker? It seems to me like he wasn't trying to jack sh&T.

[OzDude]

Putting aside all the big kiddies on here who speculate on how and where and at what stage of flight he should have detonated his shoe bomb and after listening to the numerous 'TV experts' waffle on about sniffer dogs and nitrate sensors we now see even more pathetic knee jerk reaction from absolutely useless 'security experts' making passengers remove their shoes and put them through the x-ray machine. I mean, how more idiotic can it get?

As mentioned in an earlier post, if these penny pinching airline beancounters had just a bit more foresight and slightly larger cojones than a castrated mouse and invested in EL AL style security profiling we would all be a bit safer. It has just been reported that this guy was refused an earlier flight because he was acting a bit weird but they decided to let him on the MIA flight! Who is the dumb security chief that is going to pass the buck on this one?

Until airlines, airports and governments get off their tight backsides and invest in proper security that prevents these dangerous people from even getting to the check in desk, never mind the the aircraft, then all we are going to see is more brainless security where their idea of security is a magnetic loop and an x-ray scanner AFTER check in and before the duty free or gate. Too late and as shown, easily breached.

[Raas767]

I heard a blurb on the news yesterday where they were discussing the question of why this guy tried to light his shoe at his seat instead of someplace less conspicuous. Apparantly he was seated slightly behind the leading edge of the wing were he could have blown a hole in the floor and ignited fuel in the center fuel tank. Again this is all speculation and I am probably giving this guy way to much credit.
Like someone said, why not do it over a populated area instead of over the ocean? Not to bright these guys I guess.

[MarkD]

Saw punters putting their shoes thru the detector on the telly tonight... at the very least we might need to recruit a few linesmen at airports to check the shoes like subs coming on :)

Stupid b@stard, hope the spooks squeeze every last drop out of him.

[RRAAMJET]

"..NOT TOO BRIGHT THESE GUYS..."

Radar's probably going to edit me, for correctness, but I hope he let's this stand:

No, they are not too bright; any one who has trained them in the military will agree that most of them have the street-smarts and ingenuity of the average European 13-year old, and never have a back-up plan. They can be truly astonishing. I for one was annoyed at seeing the press label 9/11 as a "brilliantly planned and executed plan" - that was giving them far too much credit. They were just plain lucky - there were so many loopholes in their plan that could have blown the whole thing, and the chances of picking four flights (or more) and not having a single armed escort travelling or whatever in the US are pretty slim (I'll not elaborate, but fellow US airline pilots will understand what I mean).

If this chap is from Sri Lanka, maybe he hasn't flown much before, and limited instructions and training left this as his best effort. Much as I would like to see my fellow crewmembers having torn him to pieces, a live one is worth his weight in gold for intel purposes. No rights for this pr**k - treat him as the Mossad would.

It's time to be meaner and nastier than the opposition; it's the only thing that will get through to them. If you disagree with harsh measures, I presume you are happy to let the airline industry collapse completely; political correctness no longer has a place in the war against terror. Mental illness is no excuse, either, for terrorising the innocent ( AA into ORD 2 mnths ago).

RANT OVER....

[rchrdsorge]

Truthfully, none of us knows the frame of mind of a man intent on murdering others along with himself. Maybe he waited as he did because he was having second, third, ....nth thoughts. Maybe he changed his mind, then changed it again at the last minute when he failed to get that extra bag of peanuts. I hope our FBI interrogators are "professional" enough to help him properly recollect and understand his actions, if only to provide him with the proper "closure" on this sad chapter of his life.

On the other hand, there is a school of thought that among the ways of terrorizing people is to forever leave them in the dark. Had he managed to trigger another "center fuel tank" explosion (and have we not had occasion to contemplate those in recent years?) over the Atlantic, how would the governments of the USA and France have responded? (Remember TWA 800?)

One cannot help but wonder how long it will be before someone seriously proposes a ban on the wearing of clothing on all international flights.

[gear-up]

I think we now have to consider banning platform shoes and flares [trousers] etc, If we ban all 70's style clothing, then that should really screw them up for a few years! as they will not know what to wear whilst attempting to appear normal,and looking like something out of Starsky and Hutch.instead of the pre-historic,r@ghe*ds that they are

[Roadtrip]

Another muslim fanatic? Is the muslim community in Luton happy about this attack too?

[Raas767]

I just got an e-mail from the airline saying that the FAA will soon come out with a directive(ooh I feel better already) to address this new security threat. I guarantee that will involve flight crew taking of shoes and putting them through the xray machine!
Only 22 years 5 months 16 days to go till retirement! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[vikingwill]

In response to the clipping from Vivienne Walt, USA TODAY posted by Sir Algernon Scruggs, I have to say that having travelled with EL Al, I too, am extremely impressed by their attitude towards security. Given the visible security, I'm even more comforted by the invisible security that PAX (and hopefully the terrorists) never see.

Anyway, my point - the seriousness that the travel industry takes human life in terms of security, transportation design, operating procedures boils down to a calculatable cost. If the cost of intermittent distruption, compensation and damage to brand equity over a defined time period is less than the ongoing costs of incremental (effective) security, equipment redesign etc. then it just won't happen. I know I risk sounding jaundiced, but if government and industry really were interested in reducing the number of fatalities associated with travel, the various recommendations of board of inquiry would be heeded and we would no longer still see:
Roll-on Roll-off ferries - bulk heads would be in place
Fuel tanks filled without nitrogen
Kapton wiring
Poorly validated flight control software necessitating upgrade patches after incidents.
Flight control systems that can be inadvertantly switched through technician error.

The point is all the failure modes associated with such systems are recognised. Some will be addressed, others won't. I don't pretend to know the answer, and I don't mean to knock the accountants - if we want effective security passengers attitudes also need to change.

[Squawk 8888]

Turns out he was a Brit who converted to Islam. Since he's a UK citizen who took up arms on behalf of the enemy, they should charge him with High Treason.

The security response to this will be the death of the industry- many travellers have stated that it's the security hassles, not the risk of terrorism, that's making them rethink their plans. Now that they're making pax take their shoes off it can only get worse. Many on this board have endorsed El Al's security measures, conveniently forgetting that their pre-boarding checks take longer than most North Americans would need to drive to their destinations. Do you really want to wipe out the short-haul traffic?

If this incident proves anything, it's that preflight screening is useless. The most effective measures are good intel, alert pax & crew, and some weapons on board available to the good guys (and not just the sedative from the first aid kit).

[Raas767]

Vikingvill.

I would love to see ElAl security and so would everybody else, but there are a few problems.

1. Take AA as an example. They have almost 900 jets with 2800 flights a day. With Elal security that would have to be reduced substantially.

2. El Al relies heavily on profiling, which I agree with, but it is illegal in the U.S. and in alot of other countrys. I think your bunch saw to that. I saw an interview with Norman Minetta were he said that security people can not treat a granmother from Pasadena any differently han they can treat an Arab male. That may be politicaly expediant but is utterly moronic in this case.

If we want good security laws will have to change, attitudes will have to change, and the way we do cost benefit analysis in business will have to change. Lastly we need to completely tear down an rebuild the most incompetent and inept orginization ever put on this earth. The FAA. They don't call it the Tombstone agency for nothing!

[Wino]

RAAS, I got 9256 days 5 hours 8 minutes and 55 sec till I retire.

Let me tell you, I don't believe that security can ever catch someone bent on suicide, and the fact that I work for an Airline whose name millions want removed from the Lexicon is frightening.

Cheers
Wino

[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]</p>

[Raas767]

Wino.
I think you and I work for the same outfit.

[Wino]

Yep,

Will be at the Sherry Tomorrow night in Miami if you wannt get a christmas beer
Wino

[Roadtrip]

The problem isn't shoes. It isn't nail clippers. It isn't boxcutters. IT'S MUSLIM FANATIC TERRORISTS. Profiling is the only practical answer. BTW, if security in Europe is so good, how'd that guy get past security checks with a fake passport after airline security turned him over to the French government security under suspicion. Until the muslim countries clean up their act and root out the fanatics and west-haters, I would propose a complete ban on immigration from those countries and immediate deportation of illegal aliens. Immigration control in Europe, Canada, and the U.S. STINKS. The people that want to exterminate us are using our own rope to hang us with.

[Plastic Bug]

I'm beginning to think this guy was just a nut.

If he really had plastic explosives in his shoes and was trying to ignite it with a match, well.

I've heard that C-4 is like sterno. Guys in the field would light the stuff to cook their dinners.

Harmless, really unless setup properly. If so, this guy is guilty of scaring the heck out of the pax and setting himself up for one really, really hot foot.

Basically, an idiot.

Forget the EL AL screening process. It is not going to happen in America. Just won't.

Forget disallowing people of Arabic descent coming into America.

Not going to happen. We are not that way.

You take your chances, you pay the man.

Freedom is not free. We take some risks, I would like to think they are informed risks, but they are risks never the less.

It's how we live.

Having our shoes X-Rayed is a little much, but it will pass and we will move along. Lots of people are in panic mode now. Let's try to not let that screw us up too badly.

We'll get it all sorted out eventually and we will do it right. Until then, maintain an even strain.

PB

[MissChief]

Bit passive there, Plastic Bug. Your laid back attitude is precisely the one that terrorists targetting airliners love. Something a tad more concrete, like using their own "Sharia" laws to punish them might be more of a deterrent. These people feel they can get away with murder, literally, either by dying in glory or at worst, being arrested and then molly-coddled by our own law-enforcement people, whose hands are pretty much tied.

Apologies as this is neither a rumour nor news. Simply an opinion from one whose career has been wrecked by the islamic fundamentalist activities.

[El Grifo]

It has to be said, MissChief is expressing the sentements of most clear minded people, as opposed to the minds of those clouded by social correctness or religion.

The world has changed. Fanatical groups from the Islamic World are on the march. We just have to reflect on recent events to establish who their targets are. Primarily, honest, innocent, working, Men, Women and children.

I have no love for the Israelis and I absolutely abhor what's taking place in their adopted country right now, but an approach to security similar to thiers, is going to have to be considered.

On top of that, a method of dealing with people quite obviously involved in "Terrorist Activities"
(and I mean clearly definable activities) has to be introduced.
I have always believed in principle, in the death penalty.

The UK's history of "wrongful convictions", "fabricated evidence" etc etc etc and the releasing of scores of Birmingham sixes, Manchester fours, West Bromwich two, Newcastle nil
prevent me from believing that it is an acceptable option.

However,when a Guy gets on a plane with a "bomb" in his shoe and attempts to set it off in full view of the passengers, irrespective of his sanity or religious beleifs (or both) then he should be toasted.

The alternative is to try him, convict him
(maybe) and then stick him in a prison for thirty years or so, during which time the possibility of his spiritual brothers arranging another hijack or hostage, taking in order to effect his release exists for the entire period.

We have clearly entered a new chapter in the tale of "Terrorism" and I think we have to start looking for new and effective and direct ways of dealing with it.


Eh, two sugar please dear.

[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: El Grifo ]</p>

[CargoOne]

What I remember from army service - plastic explosive needs other kind of detonator, not a fuse, but ok, i'm not an expert in explosives.
Then, lavatory seems to be much safer place to ignite the fuse - nobody will see you and nobody will interrupt you. Also, it is much easier to take some baggage to avoid problems with boarding, isn't it?
Those guys managed to get British passport and explosives for him, but failed to instruct him on simple issues I've mentioned above? Understand my point - kamikaze-terrorists may be stipid, but not the guys who organizing terrorism acts.

[Superpilot]

Here we go again….insane ramblings take two. Your idea of religious profiling holds no value, it’s fundamentally flawed and no more of the “Islamic terrorists”, “Islamic fanatics” etc etc…Read and understand this: By us allowing you to go ahead and profile in this way (which no doubt benefits us in the long run) we are accepting that people like OBL are Muslims. Don’t you get it, these mad men need a justification and your narrow mind is allowing them to escape into a wider population. One would expect people as educated as yourselves to know that not all whites are rapists, not all blacks are thieves and not all Asians are fraudsters. As facile as my remark may seem if you want to go ahead and profile Muslims then I want to see the day when all white males over 40 are screened for paedophiliac tendencies and all blacks are spied on. The ailment is human-nature not religion.

[sky9]

The interesting point of this incident is that if he is a de-arranged individual, someone as simple as him has driven the proverbial coach and horses through the security apparatus of a major European Country’s Security. The guy had all the hallmarks of someone who should have been prevented from travelling (Single ticket, no baggage, travelling on his own) yet was allowed to board. A security inspector could not have acted the part better.

A couple of months ago I drew a British DTLR Security Inspectors attention to the complete disregard of shoes as a potential hiding area for knifes and blades and that Security staff do not check them when an scanner alarm goes off. His response was indifference (Someone might actually respond after this thread).

Until Governments take security seriously and start passenger profiling these incidents will continue. To quote a comment in a UK newspaper a couple of days ago, "the biggest obstacle to proper security is Human Rights Legislation".

As our "President's" wife earn her "crust" on that particular gravy train I cannot see anything changing.

[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: sky9 ]</p>

[sir]

just a thought, but if you light it in the khazi you are further from the fuel tanks etc no ?

[Barry Fields]

[quote]'rednecks' and their instant xenophobic 'solutions' <hr></blockquote>

With the utmost due respect Capt Pprune, the "r" and "x" words are used excessively these days, to the point of becoming irrelevant in any debate, and indeed are commonly used as a tool to stifle free speech and thought by the PC police.

I'm certainly not a redneck or racist, and consider myself at the opposing side of the scale to being a xenophobic.

My creed is live and let live. I don't care who your god is, or what colour your skin is - just do your own thing in peace and don't mess with other peoples lives.

Anyone who commits, or attempts to commit such acts reneges on any rights that being part of the human race affords them.

Right wing, Left wing, Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, White, Black, Purple or Orange makes not an iota of difference in my eyes - these are not relevant.

What is relevant is that normal people can't go about their lives without some mentally challenged fools trying to blow them into small pieces.

[El Grifo]

Superpilot, your stuff may look great written down on a page. All very correct and ideal. Here in the REAL World. One of the greatest atrocities of our lifetime took place in NY on September 11th. It was perpetrated by Islamic Fanatics who were eh, Isalmic and Fanatical. How you expect the realistic people of the World to react.

lets just call a spade a spade and not a shovel.


best make it three spoonfuls this time dear!

[tony draper]

They are going to have to start x raying the punters soon,
It won't be long before one of these lunatics takes a leaf out of the cocaine hauler book and swallows half a dozen condoms filled with semtex.
If I can figure a couple of ways of detonating something like that, so can they.

ps, I hope that this thought had occured to the security bods.

[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: tony draper ]</p>

[FFFlyer]

Yeh, well like it or not Superpilot all those involved in the hijackings fitted that bill. So far in Afghanistan only two white caucasians have been found.
Living in an Arab country I know where their sympathies lie, never mind the statements made in the UK press by 'British' citizens.

Without wishing to open up this topic, on the subject of the B'ham 4. I knew a DI who was on the infamous serious crimes squad who investigated them. He was convinced to his dying day they were guilty. One of the four actually led him to a cache of explosives.He was incidentally also living under another identity as he was at risk from the IRA. Funny how they were interested in him if he the B'ham four were all innocent! So much for smart assed lawyers and media campaigns about the 'innocent'.
Lenin once said freedom was a commodity so precious it has to be rationed. Maybe he was right.

[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: FFFlyer ]</p>

[Huck]

A redneck speaks:

You gotta kill the spider by striking at the body, not the pincers.... Much talk about "sleeper cells" but I'd bet that autonomy's not a big priority with these guys. Where is OBL?

Also - supposedly 20,000 men have attended the Al Queda training camps. Why not concentrate on them? Why not develop a profile of THEM - surely the vast majority come from just a few nations and are of a certain age. All are male.

Remember, Danny et al, we are not talking about detaining those who are profiled. 10% of passengers are pulled out at the gate and searched anyway - why not apply a small amount of reason to whom the guards will spend time on? By the way, it is NOT random now - if you are a deadheading pilot you will most certainly be pulled out of line and searched (one way travel is a big flag).

One final thing (God help me I just gotta say this): if any of these terrorists had applied at United back when they were hiring, their application would have gone into a special pile and they would have been interviewed with much less flying qualifications than guys like meself. So profiling has already been endorsed in this industry, no?

[Squawk 8888]

FFFlyer, the rationing of freedom is the goal of terrorists everywhere. All of the preboarding nonsense is precisely what they want. They hate us because we have created a good life for ourselves, one that includes the freedom to go anywhere they with. Such a life is impossible in their homelands (thanks to their leaders), so they try to "equalize" things by making us as miserable as they are. They cannot build, so they figure destroying is the next best thing.

As for profiling, it's just good sense. Here in Toronto there are many muslims who've mentioned that their imams are calling press conferences in English to condemn terrorism, then taking to their pulpits every Friday to call for jihad. Many mosques in North America have been engaging in fundraising for terrorist groups, usually without the knowledge of their members. It doesn't help when they hide their activities behind the government's policy of multiculturalism; just one week after it was revealed that a government-sponsored cummunity group was buying arms for the Tamil Tigers, a federal cabinet minister was the guest speaker at one of their fundraising dinners.

[FFFlyer]

Sqwk, much of the anti-western feeling in the Arab world originates in envy, I agree.
However the motives of the terrorists go far deeper. Envy doesn't make somebody take their own life for a cause, however misguided that is. From my observation certain 'belief systems' lend themselves to being misused for this purpose. That's not to say those systems are wrong....

Recent surveys in the UK have revealed much similar views amongst certain parts of the population to those in Canada.

All a bit off topic....

[Superpilot]

El Grifo check your mail. I'm not going to respond to the above cos this thread will just degenerate into another long religious debate. For those of you still in the "It's us against them" frame of mind I suggest you take some of this: <a href="http://www.insaneinthemembrane.org/killerdiseases/prozac.zip" target="_blank">www.insaneinthemembrane.org/killerdiseases/prozac.zip</a> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Capt PPRuNe]

As the content of this thread has diverged from the main title it is time to close it. There are plenty of other websites where you can debate the minutae of race, religion and politics, especially as the are intertwined with the current security climate and airlines.