Be realistic, my friends...

[BelArgUSA]

I was with airlines since JAN 1969, and now retiring at the end of November...
Has been 39 years... 54 days to go...
That includes many years in the USA, where some of you want to try to get a career.
I survived OCT 1973, and 14 years of layoff, forcing me to fly far away.
The situation in OCT 1973 was bad... oil had been $18 per barrel.
Airlines did furlough thousands of pilots, many never made it back to flying.
It was bad, but not as bad as it is now...
xxx
Be realistic...
The world economy today is in a worse shape, than it was in 1929.
Even though Wall Street still does not want to admit it... Their pride...?
Economy is certainly worse than the 1974-1980s' period.
USA elections will change nothing. Read my lips...!
All they can do there is "print more money" - Hooray, Monopoly money...!
xxx
I spend my life in front of the TV News from USA, Europe, Asia and South America.
BBC, CNN, TV-5, Deutsche Welle, TVE, RAI, NHK in English, TV-Globo, you name it...
I read financial newspapers in English, Spanish and French...
The $ on which airlines base revenues and pay fuel is worth nothing.
And despite all that you will train for the next 2 years as pilot...
And spend anywhere between $60,000 to $100,000+ for a licence...?
JAA or FAA, what are your plans, frame it and show it to friends...?
If you get a job flying, is it CFI and earn $1,200 per month...?
xxx
A wild guess, there will be in excess of 10,000, maybe 20,000 pilots out of work soon.
All highly qualified, looking for jobs you cannot get with 250 hrs...
Sure you can buy a licence... but are jobs for sale...?
The way I see it, things will get back to normal 10 years from now (maybe).
xxx
You love airplanes and flying... ok.
So, invest in medical studies, or law. When rich, buy yourself a little airplane.
Do a PPL/IR when you will be able to afford it.
What I know about airlines now...? Well, I would not dream of an airline career.
Come next March, I am going back to the university, for fun. Study archaeology.
All about the Incas, their history, study Quechua language, anthropology...
After November, do not ask me what a 747 is... I shall not recall.
xxx
All the best to all of you. Sorry airlines are in a mess, not my fault.
:ok:
Happy contrails, from an old fart

[Canada Goose]

BelArgUSA,

Thanks for imparting your words of wisdom. I hope younger wannabes pay heed to them !

May I be the first to wish you a very happy retirement (sounds like fun plans) !

Cheers,
CG.:ok:

[eikido]

Would a strong dip lead to a strong upturn?

Eikido

[SparksFlyHigh]

Fortunately (I think), I am in the position of having finished college and working full time now. Thus I am completing my ppl, whilst saving a bit for when (if) the industry looks more inviting in years to come.

Im glad that I havent started training or parted with any serious money and im quite happy that I will perhaps be ready to start training in say 3 years or so, which will hopefully be a better time for the industry and allow me time to do the training with any loans.
If not, I have a ppl, maybe I will use the money to buy a nice little plane or group share.

[Pantera Negra]

:yuk: (And now cleaning my desk up)

My apologies, but that's how such bad news affects me.

However, as a 'senior' wannabe -what a term!- I highly value these kind of pointers.
But as stubborn as most of us and as dreamy as a few, I miss the tips out of that extensive experience for those who are still determined to 'pay' for a fATPL.
After all, getting that rich also isn't that easy.

If it will be a strong upturn or not remains to be seen. People/institutions/corporations will learn from this. So an upturn will be, but what it will look like...???
Don't know if the comparison fully makes sense but the future for hedge fund and private equity pro's also wont be the same; not so much less, but definitely different.

[Mikehotel152]

IMHO:-

There will be a demand for air travel in 2010, 2050 and probably 2100. People aren't going to revert to sea travel. Despite OPEC deliberately cutting supply, there is sufficient oil for the time being. And in 50 years time aircraft will be powered by something else anyway.

As for pilots: unless all aircraft are flown solely by computers, there will be a need for pilots. Perhaps the demand will be for fewer pilots because there are fewer aircraft, and certainly fewer pilots will be needed than are actually qualified, but that demand will be there.

If you don't have the drive to be one of the few to get work, heed the advice, give up now or don't even start.

[Jay_solo]

Very Honest post! I hope young wannabe pilots heed it. I've met many airline pilots who love their job, but all say similar things as in the opening post. I'm taking my time, paying my way and not killing myself in debt for this career. And remember, a flying career doesnt = Airline only! fly because you love planes and flying, and not just for the glamour of pilotting 737/747.

[Aerospace101]

glamour of pilotting 737/747

What glamour?!? :ugh:

[Ptimat31]

Sorry my friend but saying that the economy is worse than 1929 is just a point of view (for being polite !) :bored:

Were you also a golden boy at that time, then a pilot for 40 years and now you're economist ?

It is true that wen my granda' and dad started to work, it was guaranteed for life (yes, I'm a froggy :8) and now it is not. So all ancestors in my perimeter used to told me that now life is unfair and that I'll never get a proper job because it will be different from what they experienced.

Same applies for flying. I am an old (34...) wanabee now, just doing my ATPL by distance learning while working for Airbus at the same time.

1st thing : Becoming rich enough to buy an airplaine is far more unlikely compared to be a pro pilot... Specially in Airbus... (hopefully human resources never read pprune, if they know how to read :E)

2nd thing : Jobs in Airlines are maybe difficult to secure over a long time, pilots have to go far from their home for flying but there'll be still the need for young new pilots. Of course, if you dream to be an Air France pilot all your life, it is going to be difficult... Try business aviation !

3rd thing: When you like flying, what's the shame being an CFI for 1200/month ! You've got more chances of being hired as pilot like this rather than waiting in the office and sending CVs (full of examples around me as Airbus is a nest of CPLIR waiting their hour to come)

Understand it has nothing against you but the pessimism you are showing. "It suck now, you should have seen how great it was before, too bad you'll never know"...
Spend your days in the office watching the others flying, you'll understand !

Cheers and Happy Archeology courses !
By the way, 747 are just dinausors now ! :p

[EchoMike]

"I spend my life in front of the TV News from USA, Europe, Asia and South America. BBC, CNN, TV-5, Deutsche Welle, TVE, RAI, NHK in English, TV-Globo, you name it... I read financial newspapers in English, Spanish and French..." Most of the media hacks wouldn't know good news if it bit them on the end of their tender nose. Looking at Google News (compendium of headlines) - Oil is up, oil is down, oil unchanged - same day. Hostages freed, hostages dead, hostages location unknown - also same day. Look at the way they report aircraft incidents "lost 20,000 feet in three seconds! We're all gonna DIE!!", they have NO idea what they are talking about. Why should the quality of their economics reporting or their political reporting be any better? It is the job of the media to GET CIRCULATION so they can justify high ad rates, accuracy in reporting is a casualty of commerce here. And we don't even want to start talking about media bias in politics (all the news that fits we print) . . . I find my attitude is MUCH better when I mostly ignore the news, most of it is incorrectly reported, biased, or just plain wrong. According to them, the world has been going to end time and time again, yet somehow it has not. If you are stuck spending your free time (layovers, etc.) watching CNN, I can certainly understand your unhappiness. The milk from the glass tit is sour in the extreme. The very last people I would let influence my actions and decisions are the media - they quite simply have no idea what they are endlessly talking about. If someone is just starting out in aviation, I say go for it - there's a significant chance you'll be successful, remember you won't have competition from the people who pay close attention to the media - they are all fearfully hiding under their beds. When it is in the history books, you can start to pay attention to it - the daily news is primarily panicked arm-waving and shouting, much ado about nothing. Best Regards, Echo Mike

[Pantera Negra]

Oh yeah?!

Ptimate31, do I understand correctly that instead of a careless, well-paid and safe corporate life you rather have the burden of a considerable debt while earning scrap as a flight instructor?

Please tell me, because that would definitely make me feel less like an idiot.

[plumponpies]

This must be the only industry where you spend ££££'s and hundreds of hours of study and sacrifice to gain a licence/qualification.
You then spend months, sometimes years searching for that first elusive job, which pays peanuts but you get it eventually.
Its instructing, or its a regional commuter but it is fine for now....
You then spend months or years on the bread line hoping that one day soon your CV will be picked up by the chief pilot of Big Airways.
That day arrives!! Brill! You jack-in your ****ty paid flying job and move onto your big comfy airliner job. The salary is good, the pension is good, the flying is great, every thing is peachy!...This is what i was waiting for and it is every thing i thought it would be.
SIX YEARS getting here, yes SIX YEARS! and now i'm going to enjoy it.
So now i can buy that big house, the nice car, i can now afford to go on holiday at last.
I am still paying off that training loan, but hey, i can now afford it.
3 1/2 years sat fat dumb and happy and WHACK!!!!
No job, no redundancy, nothing but £60.50 per week, job seekers allowance to live on.
I still have the large house, the nice car, the training loan still to be paid etc. But no job to pay for it all!
And now i am back in familiar territory, exactly where i was 6 years ago only with NO money in my pocket!:ugh:
Where ever i go from here i will be starting at the bottom again,from scratch. This industry is like an incurable drug addiction......It is really bad for you, but you just wanna keep on doing it:ugh::ugh::ugh:
I need a cure!:}

[student88]

BelArgUSA - fantastic words, quite poetic. I believe there is much truth in what you said.

People will believe what they want to believe, even if, at the back of their mind, they know it's total bull sh*t.

S88:ok:

[ewsd02]

Wise words I'm sure from an experienced guy, however, I can't help thinking that it goes a little too far.

As bad as 1929? If I remember high school history, wasn't inflation well into double figures then with personel savings wiped out over night and people carrying their pay home in wheel barrows, that is if they even had a job? If so, I don't think things are that bad at all, and I read about experts comparing it more to the early 80s.

[dog.101]

Welcome to the new PERUNE web site

Professional Economist rumour network

What will be will be, who here can now read into the future. "WOW"
seems like some people love bad news but the truth is it's the positive guys that will get your jobs (Because we NEVER give up) while you sit there having a good old moan.
I think you all should cut your losses and get out now.
I will take you future job...no problem...and may I thank you for it now!:ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

That's the spirit! Bah!! If all else fails a pig headed refusal to face facts will surely see us through!

Hey ho - Over the top and Tally Ho!

BAH!


WWW (with hat tip to Lord Melchett) :}

[dog.101]

You are free to think what you want..(Does not mean that you are right)
And please loose the patronising tone when you dont know the first thing about my future... "But I Do" :)
Far from going at it PIG headed I wont have any problem getting a RHS thank you very much!!!
Think before you type sir.

[dog.101]

Yea Right www
Show the Posts that suit you and hide the rest...:ugh:
Like I said In the last one I have a plan of action and wont be going PIG headed at all...

[plumponpies]

dog.101

I think you do need to have some sense of realism.
The job market is not slow, its not a little bit down on past times, its :mad: DEAD! plain and simple.
If your plan is a 'RHS' in 5-10 years fine. But believe me matey, it won't be sooner than that. Experienced guy's on here are just telling you how it is.FACT.
I do wish you all the luck in the world though.

[dog.101]

I can tell you now MATEY I will be in a RHS in under 3 months "FACT"
I dont listen to the so called experienced guys on this site I would not really even use this site.. what have i got 4 or 5 posts..I have better things to do with my life than sit at a pc bitching to the world..But I do wish you well with that!!
I live I the real world and listne to my good friends (PILOTS) who are actualy in a position to get me that RHS and I am very privileged to know them.
You see you judged a book by it's cover and you got it wrong and that is the problem with these chat site things, People will end up taking advice from people who think they know what they are talking about
and that is very dangerous to a weak minded person.

Its all about who ya know....Aint It!

Bonne chance

[MDT06]

I wonder how many airliners where is service 40, 30, 20, and 10 years ago and how many we have in the world today? How many airline pilots 40, 30, 20, and 10 years ago? Maybe someone needs to put numbers together and see any trends.....

[Superpilot]

My two pence... When I started out 8 years ago, my old man used to say "flying is just a hobby, get a proper job". Till this day and even knowing that I now have my prof licenses he says the same thing. And he is right (but probably for the wrong reasons :p)

In this day and age, you are a fairly useless human being if all you know is how to fly a plane. Make sure you have a backup career path. I know a lot of people say this but it's also true not a lot of people actually listen to this advice. By backup career path I don't mean a mere qualification. I'm talking about practical, hands on real life experience.

Having been exposed to around 100+ student pilots over the course of my training, it defies belief how many think flying a jet is the only skill they need in life. Hard times like these prove that to be woefully untrue.

In short then, those of you who start at 18, 19, 20 or 21 (if you're a Uni leaver) and move on to airlines (as your first job) you're asking for trouble. Being this age and commencing a flying career you're likely to have a lot of debt. If you're airline folds you are left in the doodoo to roast (unless you follow WWW's school of thought but we'll leave that for a rainy day!). This matters now more than ever as the cost of living has spiralled. Even 18 hour shifts at Burger King are not gonna help. What would've helped is 4-5 years experience in another field.

The best advise I can give budding school/uni leaver wannabes is delay your career by around 5 years. You can clearly see how the airline industry goes from boom to bust. There are so many opportunities out there to make real, hard, fast cash in other careers it's almost untrue. And you should take the opportunity to, cos you'll need it!

[plumponpies]

dog.101

If you count your posts the way you count months, as i said before, you underestimate things;)

[Grass strip basher]

Dog congrats on the job.
But which part of the thread do you disagree with... do you not think that getting a job as a low houred wanabee over the next few years is going to be extremely difficult?? if you disagree please tell us why??
If you are just here to rub your success in the noses of those that are struggling best you do go elsewhere...

[ahwhataloadofsugar]

hey guys i jus said id post on here to try and help some of the guys really itching to start the atpls ,About 8ys ago i was in your boots came out of school was looking forward to start my training but the first problem that hit me was this 100k you needed :ugh:parents wouldnt just hand it over as i was young or guarantor it as i was still fallin in the door after discos, went became a sparky saved some money then did it, now flying 320 for nice big company wont have command for a goodwhile but i dont mind im in no rush not like the other monkeys on here who think they are ready with 1500hrs, my point here is i would be very careful at the minute what you decide to do. I know its your dream it was mine too but i had to hold out for 4yrs and it all worked out in end, like the other posts are sayin here too get a job, do a degree(outside of aviation) flyabout in your cessna building hours maybe go on flying holiday in florida(best time of my life) but i would not like to be forking our so much money in the current climate recruitment had dried up completely and i think it will get worse, now what i find quite amazing is guys on this site saying my company is getn 3a/c a month so loads of jobs etc etc and at same time those same places askin there pilots to take leave....something astray somewhere :sad:, but the bigger picture is in the boeing and airbus sites look at deliverie dates for a/c lots of jobs in coming years so you will just have to be in "right place at right time"

The best of luck to everyone on here i hope ye all get to where you want to go and i dont mean my post in any negative way at all,

safe flyin :ok:

[LH2]

I have a plan of action and wont be going PIG headed at all...

I dont listen to the so called experienced guys

<Sits back and reaches for the popcorn> :}

[ChrisLKKB]

Congratulations on the job Dog.

Just to avoid confusion and giving people false hopes, what you are implying is that it's OK to start training if you have mates in the industry who will guarantee you a job regardless of whether there are positions available (and assumiming the airline is guranteed not to go bust) . Sounds reasonable to me.

Do you have any sensible advice for the other 99.999% of wannabees ?

[Celtic Pilot]

How can any one gurantee anyone a job in the current climate unless of course your dad is the owner,., cant figure that one out....

[AlphaMale]

... Maybe his surname is 'Branson' :E

[Celtic Pilot]

mmmmm...true!!! one maybe he is one hell of a BROWN NOSER!!!! :ooh:

[Ptimat31]

Hey Pantera,

If you think that a corporate job is safe, careless and well paid, well actually you may be an idiot ! :rolleyes:

There's no free lunch, my studies weren't and I'm still paying for it ! Pilots are incredible by thinking that they are the only ones paying 100K$ for study. Go and apply for engineering shool then MBA...

I've just stated that at least you are FLYING, not spendind time in front of a computer or worse, travelling for your job all the time and watching the others flying... I take the plane every weeks, and incidentally I sell them...

Anyway people are free to believe and act as they want to, I respect every opinion but implying that it is easy to find a careless, well paid, safe corporate job while poor, mortgaged to the hilt pilots are struggling for life in an airclub earning **** is just bull**** from someone who never entered into a company.

I know mainly business aviation, as I am specialized into. I can tell you that pilots -even unexperienced- starting on Hawker or similar are earning much more money than I do after almost 10 years of work with half the hours as my boss does't give a sh*t of how many hours I spend in a plane or hotels or nights working to sell aircrafts that I wish you to fly one day ! (I'd prefer piloting smaller ones :))

[AlphaMale]

I think any wannabe is happy to 'brown nose' to get a seat with an airline, I'll happily move to anywhere in the world to get my first job. But with current pilots being unable to guarantee their own seat with the airline I find it hard to understand how 'dog' can have a guaranteed RHS with them?

I'm guessing he is either related to the owner, CEO, President of the airline OR He's paying for his RHS with somebody like EagleJet? Which in all honesty isn't a job :ugh: (A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession.)

[shaun ryder]

Good luck at the bottom of the seniority list dog :ok:

You are going to need it.

No matter how much arse licking.

[MarcoFF]

Airlines did furlough thousands of pilots, many never made it back to flying.
It was bad, but not as bad as it is now...The world economy today is in a worse shape, than it was in 1929.
Even though Wall Street still does not want to admit it... Their pride...?
Economy is certainly worse than the 1974-1980s' period.

And why is that? This certainly becomes a real battlefield of wannabe economics, but everybody has a right for his own opinion, still i would rather hear some arguments with it..


And despite all that you will train for the next 2 years as pilot...
And spend anywhere between $60,000 to $100,000+ for a licence...?
JAA or FAA, what are your plans, frame it and show it to friends...?
If you get a job flying, is it CFI and earn $1,200 per month...?

Yes, that is right. How much you pay in states to study medicine? There is nothing wrong with CFI position, and it is valuable experience - and of course you gain lot of hours, and your CV is not anymore with 250h guys.

The way I see it, things will get back to normal 10 years from now (maybe).

Like i said, everybody has a right to his own opinion, mine is that put it half, and half again.

You love airplanes and flying... ok.
So, invest in medical studies, or law. When rich, buy yourself a little airplane.

So is this it, the "American dream"?
And medical and law careers doesn't interest us here.

What I know about airlines now...? Well, I would not dream of an airline career.

I will. I have talk with many pilots ( for my current work i meet them daily), flying with Lufthansa, Finnair, Finncomm Airlines, SAS, Austrian, Blue1, Air Pulmantur, KLM, Aeroflot etc.. I often ask would they still go for it, everyone would. I'd rather observe in a "field" than here.

I understand that there is many risks and downsides consedering career as a pilot, but if i really want to do it, i will, i can, and i will succees with it, thats it, all what matters to me. With hard work (save the money, read and learn), a proper career planning and with a finnish "sisu" there is no doubt that i would not succees.

Dont let other people tell to you cant do it, you should not do it etc.. So guys get out of pprune and work hard,plan carefully and go for it.


Happy debating about downturns and everything, i am going to take off.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Dog

Best wishes for the new job, please share with us the aircraft ype that you have been lucky enough to get a RHS in....

Your success is against the tide, so congrats but you knowing somebody who "helped you in" doesnt change the fact that everybody else is going to struggle.

I can tell you now MATEY I will be in a RHS in under 3 months "FACT"


People forget that simply getting on a course doesn't mean you you get to fly the aircraft, probably not a good idea to kick off your sim sessions with that attitude with your instructor.......Lets just hope the LST goes ok shall we........:ugh::rolleyes:

[plumponpies]

His skippers' are gonna love spending 8 hrs a day sat next to him with that arrogance.

[dog.101]

What a bunch of FRUSTRATED AND JEALOUS LITTLE PEOPLE!
You lot really do make me laugh...
It really is great reading just to sitting here watching you all attack like the nasty little creatures you are ..:)
Do you want me to hold your hand???
begrudging know it alls>>>> thats better
:ok:

[plumponpies]

Just curious, but i'm guessing there wasn't an english written test at your new airline.:ok:

[chickentikkamasala]

Whatever dog get back to your little dream world.

If you were so cock sure of yourself then what are you doing on this forum thought you didn't have time for us losers?

A little tip for you. I would update your details to show your ratings and then it would give you a little more cred.

Don't bother do reply I don't care what you think but you obviously care what we think but can't admit that your chum can't offer you a faster track to RHS than he can to anyone else, because you see friends or no friends when there ain't no jobs there ain't no jobs.

I suspect someone has hit a raw nerve with you which is why you have come out all guns blazing.

[dog.101]

No English test.
And English is NOT my first language I'm VERY Proud to say!
But thanks for the tip and the rest will do as it it.
Should you not be out looking for a job and not sitting at home moaning to strangers over the internet?

[Aerospace101]

So dog, where is this job or yours? airline? fleet? SSTR? :ok:

[chickentikkamasala]

Oh dog forgot to tell you that I am off the curry house now so save your breath chum I won't be here to reply.

[Superdan1971]

I wanted to be a pilot, but the Gulf war, and the subsequent airline crisis force me to switch career. I became a university professor. When I am not writing/teaching/attending conferences, I read this website.
When I was I my early 20s, I did not have the money, and my parents were not supportive of a career as an airline pilot. People who say that you should not be a pilot are either jealous, or try to deter you because they see you as a competitor on the job market.
It does not take 10 years to be a pilot. I have seen some being successful in 3 years.
Regarding your comments on how low salaries are in the aviation sector; as a research assistant, I was only making $1,200. At the age of 29, I was earning $3,500.
In recent years, my career became more rewarding. I enjoyed writing, being published, teaching, travelling on conferences all over the world, and my salary got higher. But after 12 years, I have experienced a mid-career fatigue, and I often wonder if I would be happier flying planes.
On my right on my desk, I have a yoke/pedals/projector and flight simulator that screens a cockpit on the wall of my flat
It is not easy to study aviation in addition to a day job. I spend my week in books. I dread spending the entire weekend studying hydraulics and avionics. My brain need to rest too.
You cannot wait to leave the cockpit to study the Incas. I cannot wait to retire to learn how to fly.

[RMarvin86]

Every body here is caring about the puppy...but MarcoFF did reply for all the wannabees and those who believe in the dream and going to make it reality. I don't care about the market, I don't care about people complaining and pilots at home unable to find their first job. I'm at the beginning of this path, I care about my training and when it comes to find ANY sort of flying job, I'll knock on every door until the lucky day (fortune is a contributing factor) comes and will pay for all the efforts spent for the training.
And like it's hard to find a flying job nowadays, in my country it's hard to find any other kind of job, it's not only the aviation career which is in trouble. If you believe in it, then go for it.

[Celtic Pilot]

aye i know dog101 , jes lads i e-mailed there and he said he'd give us all jobs if we wanted,, sponsored type ratings on B777's as well, command within three years and all,,, FOR DEFINITE

so the facts

- Sponsored Type rating B777
- Boeing 777
-Command within 3 years

He said just to forward him all your CV's to

[email protected]

Thanks for that Dogg

(Boy do you have much to learn if you think it's that easy... I laugh).

English might not be your first language but do you repeat words in your own language to.. "it it."""..lol..

p.s Fire them CV's in boyo's

[Pugilistic Animus]

can tell you now MATEY I will be in a RHS in under 3 months "FACT"
I dont listen to the so called experienced guys on this site I would not really even use this site.. what have i got 4 or 5 posts..I have better things to do with my life than sit at a pc bitching to the world..But I do wish you well with that!!
I live I the real world and listne to my good friends (PILOTS) who are actualy in a position to get me that RHS and I am very privileged to know them.
You see you judged a book by it's cover and you got it wrong and that is the problem with these chat site things, People will end up taking advice from people who think they know what they are talking about
and that is very dangerous to a weak minded person.

Its all about who ya know....Aint It!




you're gonna be an assett to the business with that attitude----:\



Lester:E

[Farrell]

The situation in the industry in Europe and the USA is going from bad to worse. Airlines are wrapping up and same as they have done many times in the past, they will not say a word until the last minute.
Most pilots are working for a board that doesn't give a sh*t about them.
One poor crew I know, were told when they entered the flightdeck that the plane was going nowhere and the company was shutting down.

A lot of pilots will be losing their jobs in the next while and even more pilots will be "furloughed" which, when you cut out all the bs, means they have as good as lost their jobs as well.

I see it now, beginning to happen. We have the ostriches who say that everything is fine and that there is hope on the horizon, we have the ones who will stay until the doors close, and there are the ones I see here every day, who have decided that the risk is too high and have resigned their posts in Europe and the US and are moving out to the Middle East where they are being welcomed with open arms. Why?

Because these pilots are desparate to find work and the airlines in the Middle East need pilots to replace those who have decided to bail from here because they are treated like crap, the rosters are insane and they are just worn out from the region in general.
They've taken their hard-earned cash and gone home to do something more worthwhile.

Start-ups in the US and Europe? None of any worthy mention.
The smaller players dried up early - Silverjet, Maxjet.
And now the bigger players are starting to fall - XL, Zoom and Futura with rumours of plans by some low-cost carriers to start offering or, in some cases, forcing Winter season UNPAID leave on crews.

New airlines in the Middle East? Yes, they are in the pipeline.
Let's look at FlyDubai as an example. A fleet of 737NGs with a demand for God knows how many pilots to fly them.
And boy, will they have the cream of the crop to choose from!

Thousands of pilots with thousands of hours on the NG, and even some willing to shell out for a type-rating, having thousands, let that sink in, THOUSANDS of hours on other medium and heavy jets.

As a young pilot, fresh out of school with your MCC and 250 hours TT with about 50 hours of that on multis, you have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a job anywhere in the world at the moment.
Even when the industry stabilises in God knows how long, you will still then be bottom of the barrel and you can bet the farm that your salary will be far lower than you thought, or the pin-stripe suited sales rep from ACME Flying School told you it would be.

You will find yourself clamoring to pay your monthly loan charges for the next few years and then as I said above, finding no respite financially when the new jobs come around because again, it will be an employer's market.

I am lucky enough to have a great position here in the Middle East and have been constantly asking myself of late, why would I bother going to the airlines and taking about a 70% cut in basic salary per year, crap rosters and no respect....my heart lies with flying heavy jets around the world, but reality has taken a firm hold on me now.

I'm staying put and for those of you about to shell out for an ATPL, I implore you to reconsider.
And for those of you who are half way through the process, I guarantee the majority of you, that it is going to be a very rough ride for the next few years.

Farrell

[dog.101]

O my, Celtic Pilot and what BOG have they draged you out of ...I would hold off on the English lessons if this is the best you can do.
Quote:
"jes lads i e-mailed there and he said he'd give us all jobs if we wanted" "wheres me spuds"

Do you really think I give a crap what you think about me...Dream on sunshine..:ugh:

[eikido]

So why do airliners ever hire rookies with 250h and MCC?
Can't airliners find pilots with experience? I feel airliners can always find pilots with experience but they stille seem to hire rookies.

[daria-ox]

Dog, you really must be joking. There's not damn way of getting to the RHS within 3 months :| Do you read the news, papers, websites, about the downturn? You should. I'm even slowing down my training because I know I won't get a job that easily in the next few years ( talking about airlines ).

Dog it is about who you know, more than what you know. I agree with that, but during the downturn.. you really must be crazy if you believe you'll get command within 3 months..

You have to stop dreaming, and realise what's really going on in the world.

[Farrell]

So why do airliners ever hire rookies with 250h and MCC?
Can't airliners find pilots with experience? I feel airliners can always find pilots with experience but they stille seem to hire rookies.

Rookies get hired by the low cost airlines and the charter operations when things are booming and there is work aplenty.
However, as some of these airlines are closing down, or going onto skeleton staffing levels, more and more of the newbies above will find themselves on the dole queue.
There was a pilot shortage when there was massive expansion going on and it was party time for newbies - now, the squeeze is on and you will get dropped for pilots double your age with ten times the flight time as the market dwindles.

Try getting a job at a legacy airline with 250TT and see how far you get.

[Celtic Pilot]

Dog101... You are a while man indeed.....

Think you are the one that has to keep dreaming,,, (rinne me briongloid)

Just keep talking and we'll all keep laughing... no harm having dreams right enough however try to be at least a wee bit realistic and listen to what others have to say on this forum,, people who are in the industry...

there no way a newbie will have a job in the RHS in three months in the current climate, the only way that will happen is when you become an instructor in a cessna 152....

Listen a bit more, talk a bit less!!!!!

good bit of advice!!!

p.s you never did answer the questions laid out in post #41..

''we are all ears''

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Guys a couple of observations about our friend dog101.

1. He/She is a moron.

2. He/She is french.

Ignore Function :ok:

[ChrisLKKB]

I'd imagine dog101 and reluctant737 (see this thread http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/343104-100k-debt-hate-job.html ) are one and the same, if not they share the same genetic abnormalities. Fingers crossed neither will actually ever fly a passenger aircraft ;)

[potkettleblack]

Ekido - how and why airlines recruit has and always will be a bit of a mystery. From what I have seen in the industry no matter how good the forward planning there always seems to be a last minute rush to recruit. Often you will hear stories of people gettting hired today for a job starting Monday type of thing.

I know in my outfit the commercial teams invariably don't talk to the training department and then are aghast at the lead time in getting their precious airframes fully crewed. They will cite commercial sensitivity etc for playing their cards close to their chest.

The ex legacy airlines would have you believe that they have a recruitment plan in place to ensure that there are no retirement bulges. The likes of the big boys such as BA/Lufty would do this to a degree. Hence why they would take on a mix of pilots from 250hr through to 1000hr non type rated through to type rated experienced pilots.

As a general rule smaller airlines tend to feed into the bigger ones and wouldn't have as much loyalty from their employees hence recruit on the fly depending on their needs. The FR's of the world obviously find it more cost efficient to have low houred people in the RHS explaining the reason why they take on so many newbies.

Overall I tend to sit in the Farrell camp. I think there will be very limited opportunities for newbies in the near future. With FR stopping recruitment this will have a big impact. As you would know they were the largest recruiter by far of low hour pilots in Europe.

[expedite08]

Just out of interest Farrell what is you do in the Middle East? Feel free to PM

[Halfwayback]

Dog is having a 'rest in his kennel' for a couple of days!

HWB

[ChrisLKKB]

He wasn't caught humping Richard Bransons leg was he ?

"Gimmie a job Dickie, gimmie, gimmie, gimmie"

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/phd/PHD427/dog-humping-woman_%7E92041.jpg
http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/phd/PHD427/dog-humping-woman_%7E92041.jpg

[plumponpies]

Quality!!:ok:

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Dog

Dont listen to those on here, congrats on your new job.

Its always best to pre-study before your course, have a read of some technical material applicable to your skill level

Computer Based Training (http://www.ginecoweb.com/Piloto%20Privado/Cessna152Manual.pdf)

[cfwake]

ChrisLKKB

Does that work? Because I'm willing to try that if it'll get me a job. I can even get the costume. Do you think poodle is the best breed to go for?

[ChrisLKKB]

You could try it cfwake but i've found the restraining order a slight hinderance when applying for jobs.

[Celtic Pilot]

lol.... funny...lol

:ok:

[eikido]

Just another thing.
Doesn't rookie pilots usually start with taxi jobs and smaller "charter" jobs + maybe even "freight" jobs?

Do you guys think that pilots with many thounds of hours of TT + say B737 rating would "downgrade" and take such a job if they got unemployed (with a 50-70% salary cut)? Wouldn't they want to move to say middle east instead of taking those jobs?


Regards
Eikido

[Nearly There]

Im sure a few would 'downgrade' but look at it from the employers point of view, freight and air taxi operators are normally smaller oufits than where these unfortunate redundant pilots have come from.
As a smaller operator would you risk employing a jet type rated experienced pilot, type rating/training them on your aircraft, offering a smaller salary than whats the norm for there experience.
The risk being that they will be back to a jet operator quicker than a low hour pilot would move onwards and upwards, you then have to train others up to replace them, and as we well know, training is expensive!
Could be very costly for the smaller outfits.

[Farrell]

You all might want to have a look at this reality check here:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/345006-have-any-xl-f-os-got-jobs-yet.html

[BelArgUSA]

Right now. I think many airlines - North America and Europe - will be stopping any hiring, and will be (already) putting a lot of pilots on the streets. I have no numbers for Europe, but I think some 3,500-4,000 total are being put on layoff, or about to be, in the USA at the present time.
xxx
Have you heard the banking news since last Friday in Europe - Looks like the spectacular "financial problems" with banks in the USA is having a direct effect with European banks, in UK, Germany and Benelux. When "business" is not going too well, people do not travel as much. The Footsie, the DAX, the CAC40 are as good indicators as to future airline hiring plans... So, watch-out in Europe, next month might bring further bad news again for pilot openings.
xxx
If you are about to get your pilot licence, or just got it recently, and still hope to get an airline interview soon, I would suggest you to consider alternatives to your plans. Consider qualifying as C-152 PPL flight instructor, next spring, rather than that A-320 F/O job you were "100% sure to get" next week.
xxx
:confused:
Happy contrails

[Farrell]

I have just been told by a now rather distraught friend working there, that Easyjet have let go over 20 CTC graduates from their Gatwick base.

They will all finish up at the end of October.

More to be let go from other bases around Europe.

It's happening folks.

[shaun ryder]

Be aware that people will downgrade as you put it in your post, I know I certainly would. The reason is lots of these guys will want to retain some sort of flying and rating (i.e renewing their multi ir). Believe this, it wont take long to get an experienced pilot familiar again with flying air taxi or even instructing. Dont kid yourself that the wannabee will be favoured over the more experienced pilot.

[SparksFlyHigh]

Is there no other jobs in the aviation industry that pilots can pick up? Something in ops, maybe a managerial post? Or is everything aviation in the ****ter?

[plumponpies]

Shaun is right.
I've spoken to more than one or two small reginal outfits this last couple of weeks and after the usual "no sorry we are not recruiting" blerb, all of a sudden you tell them your experience and amazingly they may have something available!
I bet a pound to a penny the door would be closed if i only had 300 hrs.

[MIKECR]

Nope, I know of 2 low hours guys(250 hours) that have just got regional TP jobs, and another who's just got a corporate/biz job. There's no denying the overall situation isnt good but there's still 1 or 2 folks getting through the system.

[Nearly There]

Like wise, a local air taxi company where interviewing last week for a couple of AOC positions, two friends had interviews, both low hour guys.

[plumponpies]

Right place, right time, and knowing the right people will always help. There will be the a few low houred guy's getting jobs....just not as many as in past years.

[flyinho]

Great thread guys, some good sound advice and, as usual conflicting opinions, but thats what makes the world go round, right??

Some of the retorts to "Dog" are priceless, love the humour!

Regarding said "Dog", these kind of people are there for us to rip the piss out of, and they may well go far in an aviation career but will be regarded in the same way people see traffic wardens!

I don't post often, I like to read threads and let them sink in. I think the best advice is listen to it!

Good luck to everyone on here, whatever they end up doing (even you "Dog").:ok:

[cumulus]

dog.101, I refuse to believe that you are real. I think that you a computer virus, a scrap of malevolent script written for the purposes of making my fillings hurt and the esteemed moderator of this forum more weasely and more wee. If, Heaven forbid, you do actually exist, I suspect that you and this tube shared a seat and licked the same window on the Sunshine Bus.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/186640-training-spain-6.html#post1521151 (See posts by 747 truth... )

Biscuit,

I respect your opinion and I thank you for it. I don’t agree with your opinion but I respect it.

Please keep thinking the way you do because I know you will never ever be a competitor for the jobs I am going for and will get. I know pilots that earn double what you stated (in some cases triple) all because of sacrifice, dedication and hardwork (so what if it costs a marriage or some other material thing).

[slice]

So dog, what airline will you be sitting in the RHS of ?

[plumponpies]

I suspect dog.101 feels a bit of a tit now:p

[chickentikkamasala]

Yes I notice there haven't been any posts from him for some days now.

[dog.101]

And you wont here from me again girls...
I have some quality time coming up in a A320 sim so I have better things to do than sit talking to you losers talking Crap day in and day out.
Who are they you ask well all I will say is look out for a new co in Early December. (old company new name, new aircraft)
I must say In my country Idiots like you lot would be left in the back serving the drinks.
I will look back on you all in 3 months just to see if you actualy did anything with your lives or you all sitting here moaning about other peoples good fortune.

bye bye
SEE YOU ALL IN 3 MONTHS!

[AlphaMale]

And you wont here from me again girls...

... You mean hear? :ugh:

[daria-ox]

Dog, you're just ridiculous.

Making up stories, to make yourself feel better isn't going to help you.

[preduk]

dog.101,

I would love to meet you in real life and find out if your such a tough man...

I hope it fails miserably for you, don't worry though... I'll say a prayer for any captain that gets stuck with you. :mad:

[BelArgUSA]

And we have RVSM and RNP-5 with guys like that...?
Will there be a NOTAM when he is in the air...?
I would recommend to give him a block of airspace between FL320 and FL390.
Glad I am retiring in 50 days.
xxx
:suspect:
Happy contrails - waf waf waf....

[Leezyjet]

I have some quality time coming up in a A320 sim
Who are they you ask well all I will say is look out for a new co in Early December. (old company new name, new aircraft)
I must say In my country

This info would lead me to believe this chap could be talking about Air Deccan, shortly to be re-named Kingfisher Red and based in India and operates A320's with more on order, combined with him saying English is not his first language (in an earlier post) however, he has a much better understanding of grammer and spelling than most people who simply learn it as a second language, and have not been brought up speaking it, so he must be from a country where it is spoken very regularly by a wide number of people, whilst not being the "national" language such as India for example.

:hmm:

[Pantera Negra]

I may sound a bit "girly" saying this, but fellows... where did the positivity of this thread go. If I recall correctly the retiring captain was giving us some precautionary notes here.

Since I'm one of those wannabees looking to get in despite the currently horrible climate, I rather read some solid advice instead of watching grown men trying to kick a stray dog.

[slice]

This kind of thread usually get derailed by twats like dog.101. Appears to be born with a silver spoon up his arse and doesn`t mind advertising the fact. :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

dog.101 is someone we will never hear from again. I suspect he was a troll and whilst that is sometime amusing I think we can manage without him from here on.

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