Military Restricted Airspace

[sisemen]

Perth in Western Australia is surrounded by restricted military airspace because of RAAF Pearce. In a basically empty State which is many, many times the size of the UK, the RAAF (and RAN) ties up huge areas close by the main operating base of Pearce. No such thing as a MATZ - they can't seem to operate without an exclusion area the size of Germany.

Most of the time these areas are unused but, nevertheless, have blanket restrictions between various height bands during normal working hours.

By and large if a private flyer wants access to these areas a quick phone call to the number listed in ERSA (the Approach Supervisor) elicits a clearance and the private world therefore manages to co-exist relatively well with the military.

However, every so often one comes across a numpty who is a fully paid up member of the 'flying prevention branch' who seems to be afraid of their own shadow and refuses to give a clearance just 'in case' a military aircraft might want to transit the area during working hours.

Such a case occurred today. I wanted access to a very small portion of a restricted area just beyond the boundary for about 10 - 15 minutes. No. Not a chance. I actually live in this area and counted one - yes, one - aircraft that transitted the area the whole day and that was well outside the times that I had requested.

I'm an ex RAF officer and well acquainted with the 'exigiencies of the Service' but this fecking numpty takes the biscuit. All he had to do was to chalk up my callsign, time of operation, area and height and give me radio permission when I was 10 minutes from the boundary. Difficult? It seemed to be for this guy. :ugh:

Is it really that difficult to allow private flyers to operate in military areas?

Rant over.


I'm not sure whether this thread belongs in the Military Forum, ATC, or Private Flying - Mods please feel free to shift to where you think it belongs.

[Green on, Go!]

I've got an idea where this thread belongs...:ok:

[CirrusF]

If your experience is typical of Australian military aviation, and they really do need a dedicated airspace the size of Germany to operate, then they can't be of much use contributing to modern conflicts where civil and military traffic has to co-exist. Maybe they are planning for an invasion by NZ.

[BentStick]

The airspace around Pearce is full of spooled up studs, why would you even try Sisemen :confused: Why not head East? most days you'll have the GAFA all to youself ;)

[Captain Sand Dune]

What BentStick said.

When I went through Pearce (22 years ago:eek:) the restricted areas were much bigger.

Siseman, I'm sure you'd be the first to bleat if you saw a PC9 piloted by a testosterone fuelled solo student whistling past your wing tip.

[L J R]

Hey Ex RAF guy. Australia has never had a civvie hit (or be hit by) a Tornado sharing the same airspace - unlike the so called Mil Low Fly system in the UK.


...maybe that is why. Pearce has existed for a long time (with a similar airspace structure), and there is a lot of other parts of WA to fly in, suggest you go there.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

And let's compare the air traffic per square km in aus to the UK shall we? (How do I do that head banging against a brick wall smiley?)

Although to be fair, if the space is available, why not use it? It's a bit of a pain in the arse if the restricted area happens to be sitting right across your transit though!

[Pure Pursuit]

Having experienced Aussie Fighter Controllers working the skies of Afghan... I'd suggest that the civvies stay well away!;)


I'm gonna need a bigger boat!

[sisemen]

LJR - I try not to use restricted airspace if I can help it. I normally keep well clear of any requirement to go near it. I am ex RAF and know the score. But occasionally I have a requirement to go into or through some of the areas. It does not take a great deal of effort to control a civvy movement that is going to take 10 to 15 minutes tops in a very small part of the airspace every once in a while.

But perhaps this numpty jobsworth just couldn't be arsed or sincerely believes that all civilians can be ignored, or even thinks that the military pilots aren't up to see and avoid - whatever, it hasn't done the cause of military operations too much good. :*

[Pontious]

What you have to remember is that even though the Americans invented 'modern' aviation it took the Aussies to 'perfect' it.
:rolleyes:

[Tester07]

Siseman, I'm sure you'd be the first to bleat if you saw a PC9 piloted by a testosterone fuelled solo student whistling past your wing tip.

Or even a PC-21 whistling even faster past your wingtip piloted by a testosterone fuelled Singaporean solo student who now has significant air-to-air symbology in his HUD with which to simulate shooting you down. A civilian target would be hard to resist when you have new toys like that to play with, wouldn't it? :)

[BEagle]

testosterone fuelled Singaporean solo student
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Riigggghhhhhhhtttttttt...... That'll be Rootenant Lay Di Boy trying to grow a pair?

[sycamore]

Tooooo much time spent down `Bugis` street ,Beags, on trucking `lay-overs`......toooo many oxymorons as well,testosterone,lady-boys ,etc??

[oldpinger]

Siseman,

You do realise that some restricted airspace off the coast there is used by ships and fast movers when they play at trying to kill each other, not to mention the very real threat of a sailor on the other end of a .50 cal doing a gunnery exercise-:eek: Heard a story of someone going to investigate red flares out at sea only to find they were in fact tracer.:O

Anyway, I'm sure the navy send you a copy of the fleet exercise program personally so you know which bits are active...

[sisemen]

FFS! Let me say this r e a l l y s l o w l y so that the hard of understanding might get aboard.

I have flown in this area regularly for quite a number of years. I am ex RAF and appreciate the importance of military restricted airspace. I am fully aware of NOTAMs which tell me which bits of restricted airspace are active and for what reasons. I live on the ground under the said piece of restricted airspace and am well aware of RAAF PC9s and Hawks, Singaporean S221s, as well as occasional RAF, USAF and USN visitors buzzing around the skies at a fast rate of knots. In short - I am a "professional" pilot that is very, very keen on seeing quite a few more birthdays.

All I wanted was 10 to 15 minutes in a piece of restricted airspace which is generally used only for transitting from the great wide spaces of Western Australia back to RAAF Pearce. The RAAF are generally pretty good about letting those of us with a genuine reason to have access. It should not have been beyond the wit of man (in particular this feckwit of a flt lt area supervisor) to chalk my details on the ops board and vector anyone who might, just might, have been due in the area at about that time to bugger off 2 miles to the north or at least tell them to see and avoid. I had a job to do. I couldn't do it.

Normally there is no problem whatsoever and on every previous occasion (presumably when I have spoken to the SAC on duty who actually does the job) permission has been granted, I've called up approach before entering the area and have, when necessary been given a squawk code just to be on the safe side.

However, this particular feckwit must either have been afraid of his own shadow and unable to make a decision or he had a down on civilian flyers. Either way, it's a crock. :yuk:

Now, apart from the said feckwit coming on here and giving an explanation for his decision, does anyone else have any trite comments like oldpinger?

[Captain Sand Dune]

oooooOOOOOooooo!

Did you have ALL the information available to you, or just what you could see from that particular corner of the airspace? You state that Pearce ATC generally don't have a problem with your operations, but on this particular day they did.
Have you considered the possibility that said feckwit may have had a genuine reason to keep you out of the airspace? He/she had a much bigger picture to deal with.
And no, said feckwit DOES NOT have to justify his/her decision to you regardless of whether or not you think it's a crock or not.
But as an ex-RAF pilot you'd know that...........wouldn't you?:hmm:

Yours in triteness.:}

[Trojan1981]

Never had any real problems transiting mil airspace on the east coast, even when its busy. Its usually easier if you let them know well in advance.
I have seen many near misses in mil flying; Two Macchis on take off passed about 100 feet below me at Nowra (Husbands DZ) just after exiting the para door of a Herc (parachuting), that ended in a very bad feet apart landing.
Also, a pair of F-111s passed scarily close at scary speed and full A/B as our 'Bou entered the zone at Amberley in 2001. I have heard of some close calls in Pearce airspace, so the danger is there.
Some controllers will let you through, some will not in the same circumstances. I guess some are more competent than others. Not much you can do about it unfortunately

[minigundiplomat]

You live near Chittering?

[Airborne Aircrew]

I actually live in this area

Didn't get that picture of the neighbors daughter sunbathing topless I take it... :E

[sisemen]

minigundiplomat - Toodyay (Coondle) - and we don't see nearly enough low flying over here!

airborne - no neighbours near! In any event I've probably seem 'em all!!

[Fox3snapshot]

I'm sorry mate, I think I missed something...did you say you were ex-RAF, oh dammit how silly of me, yes no less than 3 times. :}

[DBTW]

Sisemen, you are right that military restricted areas tie up huge airspace in Australia. Having flown extensively here and over there, I agree that traffic flow is freer and more simple in the UK because the regulations are more straight forward and more easily understood, and the services provided are more geared towards letting people fly.

I also understand that UK authorities are very much more loath to impinging upon individual freedoms with the imposition of too many restrictions. Let's face it, as you and many others have observed, if UK had just one of our Pearce sized restricted areas there would be precious little airspace left for anyone else to do anything!

People here don't understand what you are talking about because we seem to like being regulated. Our national pride is about how safe everything is, and I think we mistakenly believe that it is the regulations keeping us safe rather than the very low traffic density in massive areas with predominantly good weather.

We could argue that we can have the protection of restricted areas because we have so much space available. True. Your problem is the fact that nearly all our military bases are now in close to conurbations for the lifestyle benefits of the uniformed folk.

Be certain, not many here know what a MATZ is, or that they are surrounded by uncontrolled airspace. Similarly, not many will understand that nearly all military training flights in the UK are completed OCTA, or that RPT is restricted to controlled airspace in narrow corridors to keep as much OCTA available as possible for unrestricted use. They will definitely not be aware that if more than OCTA is needed around military training it will tend to be a danger area rather than a restricted area. Although you should NB: the way Brits use danger areas is not that much different to the way we use restricted areas.

With that said, radar coverage does not make things as easy here as it does in the UK. Folk with radar feel they must control. Other than the UK's obvious benefit of full national radar coverage, you also have a system trying to enable all airspace users. ATC here is much less keen on offering FIS, RIS and RAS even in E class airspace, and they just won't generally do it OCTA. There will be all kinds of reasons given about work load and poor coverage, but you can be fairly sure there is a fear of liability/litigation going on as well. Not sure what you can do about that, people have tried to change the mentality to free things up, but basically, for some reason we just love being told what to do.

If you don't like being mucked about in controlled or restricted airspace around the Perth conurbation, your best option is to fly east. No one will see you there and your radio will probably not even work.

[sisemen]

DBTW Thanks for that erudite post - it sure beats the heck out of some on this thread!

I try to avoid the Pearce restricted areas as much as possible and most of my flying is east or north of my base at Northam. However, occasionally, I do have a need to penetrate the restricted area - not by much and not for long - and generally the guys at Pearce are very good.

I guess on that particular day the Approach Supervisor was having a bad day, or I was, or both :O

We'll see what Monday brings when I try to re-do the flight

[Arm out the window]

Sisemen, you probably shouldn't have been surprised at getting a few 'anti-' replies to your original post. I've been skimming the thread now and then since it started, and reading back over what you said first, I realise why it annoys me!
In essence, you seem to be saying something like "I usually don't have a problem getting clearance to operate in military restricted airspace but today they wouldn't give me what I wanted."
You then end your message with Is it really that difficult to allow private flyers to operate in military areas?

Well, obviously not, if you get approval most of the time!