The purpose of this forum [Archive]

Final 3 Greens

21st Sep 2008, 07:01

The real purpose of this forum is so that the experienced people can spank the living daylights out of newbies.

Its like an initiation ceremony for your college frat.

Would you like another one newbie? :}

Of course, the fact that you, as a low houred PPL, decided to pick a prolonged argument with some highly experienced instructors (some with over 20k hours of flying time), at the same time displaying a knowledge of aviating that was fundamentally flawed, had nothing to do with it.

But, course, I am forgetting that you live in Britain, where competitive sports are not allowed and it is beastly to tell the truth, even though they were trying to stop you injuring yourself, since even the dunce must feel good about themselves, even if it means they learn nothing.

If you have any sense, you will go back to the thread and read the posts by Chuck Ellsworth, Pilot DAR, Say Again Slowly, Ed Harding and others and have a serious think about it.

PompeyPaul

21st Sep 2008, 07:14

The real purpose of this forum is that the experienced people can spank the living daylights out of newbies.

Its like an initiatio ceremony for your college frat.

Would you like another one newbie? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Hilarious! :D

The point is, one would be stark raving bonkers to take something you read on here as fact without checking it with an instructor or someone that you actually knew was an experienced pilot.

Also true. I remember this forum giving me very earnest advice on IT recruitment, despite not having a clue about the industry I am even in.

It dawned on me then , that even though advice is often given quite "forcibly" it does not mean it's right, and the "advice provider" will not be at the CAA if it goes wrong. Sometimes I worry that this forum is doing some damage to newbies who are taking non instructor opinions as gospel truth....

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 07:38

you will go back to the thread and read the posts by Chuck Ellsworth, Pilot DAR, Say Again Slowly, Ed Harding and others and have a serious think about it.

Can't say I found any of it that useful and doesn't look like anyone else has either (shout if you did!).

I liked Irv Lee's article "From the right-hand seat" in October's Flyer. He doesn't support my view at all but I liked "The pilots who regard the few seconds above the runway as a game to be enjoyed tend to be the relaxed ones carrying out the textbook landings"

Final 3 Greens

21st Sep 2008, 07:43

Can't say I found any of it that useful

That being the case, you are an idiot.

bigfoot01

21st Sep 2008, 07:44

I fly and post for safe fun, that is why I do it on the Private Flying forum...

FREDAcheck

21st Sep 2008, 08:21

The real purpose of this forum is so that the experienced people can spank the living daylights out of newbies.
True, and in many exciting ways: from the arrogant and patronising posts to sarcasm or downright rudeness. But most people try to help.

My favourite topics: how many hours to first solo, overhead join and - best of all - "I've just gone solo so how many stripes should I have on my epaulettes?"

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 08:33

That being the case, you are an idiot.

from the arrogant and patronising posts to sarcasm or downright rudeness.

I am thinking that a good policy is to ignore posts which are rude (just have a private giggle)

Final 3 Greens

21st Sep 2008, 08:50

David

Calling you an idiot is not rude, it is fair comment.

A PPL grants the holder certain "privileges" (not rights), it also carries responsibilities to others.

The reason you are an idiot is that you seem incapable of taking on board the responses of very experienced instructors, to certain dogmatic statements that you made and who were trying to save you from an accident.

If you choose to kill yourself, then who knows, you may even win a Darwin award / that is your choice.

The sad part is that you may take innocent victims with you, who had no choice in your decision making.

Your first post said just a forum for discussion between peers

This gives an insight into your thinking and for you to believe that you a peer of some of the other posters on here is ludicrous.

I have many more years experience of flying than you and regard myself as an ongoing learner, certainly not a peer of people like Chuck Ellsworth, from whom I have learned a lot through his unselfish sharing of a lifetimes learning of aviation.

And therein lies your problem, you seem to believe that a new PPL "fully qualifies" you as a pilot, whereas it is only the very first tentative step in learning about aviating.

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 09:19

Previous post ignored.....:=

S-Works

21st Sep 2008, 09:21

Previous post ignored.....

Not if you replied to it......

PompeyPaul

21st Sep 2008, 09:38

David

Calling you an idiot is not rude, it is fair comment.

The reason you are an idiot is that you seem incapable of
...
And therein lies your problem, you seem to believe that a new PPL "fully qualifies" you as a pilot, whereas it is only the very first tentative step in learning about aviating.Fantastic!!! We have a ready made template for all "special one" posts! Surely we can have this on an insert button on pprune ? With a couple of java script boxes for the odd prompt here and there, we'll all be able to enjoy massive amounts of auto-generated "special one" posts for ever more! :ok:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JoseMourinho.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/JoseMourinho.jpg
Jose - "Special One", top pprune poster

That said though, in between the flaming, arrogance, rudeness, bickering and outright hostility there is the odd gem of a post. :O

bjornhall

21st Sep 2008, 10:15

Main purposes of the forum, as indicated by practice:

1. Insulting and ridiculing the flying abilities of other pilots

2. Inflating one's ego by shamelessly claiming to be a better pilot than everyone else

3. Overtly idolising a rare few well known posters, in order to boost one's own status on the forum

4. Jumping any band wagon

5. Finding any single victim to gang up on, and being proud of it

6. Helpfully informing other pilots they will kill themselves and their loved ones

7. Generally making an ass of oneself

8. Safely behave in a way that would get your nose punched if done face to face

9. Life replacement; if you don't have one, you can pretend you do on PPRuNe

10. Claiming it is all done to "help others"

That said though, in between the flaming, arrogance, rudeness, bickering and outright hostility there is the odd gem of a post

*nods!* :ok:

A very tiny minority indeed, but it almost makes it worthwhile...

bjornhall

21st Sep 2008, 10:24

I don’t think they ever “told” me what to do. There was the occasional - why don’t you try this, see how that works for you, or I see you usually do it that way, but I wonder what you would do if this happened,

In other words, treating you with respect! :ok: Sharing their knowledge with you, without intimidating, patronising or insulting you. Letting you do your thing, while illustrating another way that might be better. Inflating your ego and your flying skills simultaneously, rather than puncturing yours to inflate theirs. Making you a better pilot, rather than telling you you're a bad one.

What a beautiful contrast to some of those "helpful" individuals in the thread you mentioned for whom, despite all their skill and experience, the only useful place at PPRuNe is on the ignore list.

Say again s l o w l y

21st Sep 2008, 10:37

Many forums have a high signal to noise ratio. Private flying isn't too bad in that respect, but you do often have to pick through the nonsense to get to some really good info.

I've been posting here on Pprune for over 8 years and reading it from the very beginning, when it first came out. I was a student trying my hardest to get a PPL and found much of what was on Pprune to be more aimed at the airline world which I eventually wanted to join.

The standard has been variable over the years and I've certainly noticed that I take a lot less interest in the place now than I did a few years ago.

A lot of the really knowledgeable people have left never to return. Of course there is still an awful lot of flying talent and experience on here, but not in the same quantity as say 5 years ago.

F3G makes a very good point about being part of a peer group. You are part of the PPL world now, but in terms of experience and knowledge, you are right at the bottom of the pyramid, hopefully you'll survive long enough to expand on your knowledge.

What is the Private flying forum all about. Everything that has been mentioned. Fuji has probably put it in the wittiest way. You get all sorts of stuff here, arguments, discussion, fights and the occasional all out war, but most of the time it is relatively good natured and there is an awful lot of good stuff here if you care to read and digest it properly.

The key is, to not get all huffy about how someone posts. Bulletin Boards are notorious for fights starting even amongst people saying the same thing. Because you don't have the benefit of seeing or hearing the person you are conversing with, it is very easy to make assumptions and get the wrong end of the stick.

People may come across as being rude, when they really don't mean it. So it is up to you to realise this and not get your knickers in a twist and makes sure you really read what someone has written BEFORE you hit the reply button.

Most of the time it is blatantly obvious that someone has just read 2 or 3 lines before firing back a retort, this is when threads start to degenerate. From the looks of the last few threads you've been involved in, does any of this sound familiar?

Most people on here are normal, well adjusted human beings and when I've met up with Ppruners, we've nearly always got along well despite the ding dongs we may have had in the past. The artificial nature of typing replies instead of conversing in a more natural manner, tends to cause the problem, rather than the individuals themselves.

Oh and never forget, that whilst many people won't admit to reading Pprune. Virtually everyone in the industry does. You can get yourself into a lot of trouble if you come across as a dangerous idiot. It will be noted, especially if you p*ss off certain people.

Enjoy flying, enjoy posting, but don't spout bo11ocks, you will get picked up on it and you will get a pasting. That would be the same in a clubhouse or on here.

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 10:41

Quote:
Previous post ignored.....

Not if you replied to it......

Yes I need more self-restraint. I stopped reading when it was obviously the same garbage thrown at me umteen times before and in any case is not the topic of this thread (Many of the other replies really informative though - I'm getting to understand the pprune thing now...)

Fuji Abound

21st Sep 2008, 10:43

David

I didn’t follow the thread about landing a Cessna because it didn’t particularly interest me. One of the comments on here provoked me into having a read - although I must admit I only got through the first five pages.

I have no doubt that you have a PPL. It is also quite clear you thoroughly enjoy your flying.

When I started flying I developed some very "set" ideas about what was right and wrong, what I thought worked and what didn’t. Many, if not most, of these ideas came from my instructors (I think I may have had half a dozen through my PPL). After all, they were instructors, they must be right.

Then I joined a small group. The guy who ran the group was a past RAF fast jet instructor and latterly commercial pilot. The aircraft was aerobatic and he loved aeros. Another chap in the group flew an air ambulance throughout Europe, summer and winter in all sorts of crap weather. The third guy spent his early days "aeroing" Chinocks for the RAF before becoming a BA training captain. One way or another I did 1,000 hours or so with that lot.

Of course as a newly minted PPL I though I knew how to fly an aircraft. I had also done an IMC rating so I thought I could fly through a CB chucking out water whilst the ADF receiver clicked in the background.

Fortunately one way or another these guys took me under their wing. I don’t think they ever “told” me what to do. There was the occasional - why don’t you try this, see how that works for you, or I see you usually do it that way, but I wonder what you would do if this happened, I got to know what the odd wince meant, and how they knew I was going to miss the vertical in the hammerhead before I did. Then I started flying with a few other pilots who hadn’t got that many hours. I watched the approach into a long wet runway with a quartering crosswind, a few extra knots creep onto the approach, a landing a bit to hard onto squidgy mud and a hurried attempt to retrieve us from disaster with the trees at the end of the runway having unbelievably become a lot closer than I ever thought possible. I listened to the fella tell me his instructor had always told him to carry a little more speed into a wet runway, land firmly and not worry with the final stage of flap. Yeah, I thought, that was me. I listened some more when he commented that he thought the runway was more than long enough and had never floated so far down the runway before.

There was nothing “wrong” with the instruction I had when I did my PPL. In fact it was very good. However, it only went so far. I could have continued flying much like I was taught but I consider I was very fortunate and privileged to join that first group. There have since been a few times when a situation has arisen and after wards I have found myself thinking what would John have done, and was that what I did - and I can tell you it has saved my skin on occasions. It did on the example above when there is no doubt we would have been in the trees if I had not been conscious of what was about to happen as we touched down on that wet and slippery runway that grey November day with just a bit too much speed, started to go sideways whilst the pilot applied power without any regard to what was at the end of the runway and what the wind was doing.

I am sorry for such a long post. However, please can I prevail on you to take the opportunity to fly with one or two of the guys on here - I am sure they would oblige, or hunt down someone with backgrounds of the sort I have outline above. You will have a lot of fun and you may find you change a belief or two about how this game works. If you only ever fly off long tarmac, on good days, with not too much wind you will enjoy your flying for a long time to come, but if you are persuaded to fly to a new strip one wet, windy and grey November day you might find they have something more to contribute.

Just a thought.

[Edited to correct terrible spelling - worse than usual!]

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 10:54

Thanks for the nice long post. People seem to have more time on Sundays!

Yes I am sure you are absolutely right - I suppose the trick is to know who is a good pilot to learn from. No doubt as with car drivers there are pilots with lots of experience who have developed dangerous habits?

Gertrude the Wombat

21st Sep 2008, 11:00

Oh and never forget, that whilst many people won't admit to reading Pprune. Virtually everyone in the industry does. You can get yourself into a lot of trouble if you come across as a dangerous idiot. It will be noted, especially if you p*ss off certain people.
Turned up at the airport yesterday to be greeted by an instructor with "Hello Gertrude".

Final 3 Greens

21st Sep 2008, 11:37

I suppose the trick is to know who is a good pilot to learn from. No doubt as with car drivers there are pilots with lots of experience who have developed dangerous habits?

Two questions to answer above

1 - Fuji has given some examples of good pilots to learn from, airline pilots who train for their companies, in my experience, are very good if you wish to learn about becoming more consistent in what you do and making better decisions; this is what they apply as line pilots and educators of other line pilots, they also have teaching skills. I cannot over emphasise what I learned from these people about decision making and its importance in safe aviating

2 - All people can develop dangerous habits in any field (remember its called human factors) One has to learn to make judgments about other pilots. For example, a B52 captain took his crew to the farm a number of years ago by exceeding the aircraft limits, yet he was a senior officer and apparently a very good stick and rudder man, who had handled the aircraft in a similar way before and got away with it - a real hot dog until that final turn

YouTube - B-52 Bomber Crashes during Air Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVaAVN94sTs)

That judgement will come with experience, in the meantime you may have to ask around and average out peeople's opinions

PompeyPaul

21st Sep 2008, 13:55

Turned up at the airport yesterday to be greeted by an instructor with "Hello Gertrude".
Can't be that many wombats taking flying lessons these days ?! Would certainly raise eye brows at my flying club

http://www.kyne.com.au/%7Emark/photos/tasmania/wombat.jpg

Gertrude the Wombat

21st Sep 2008, 14:07

Good photo that! - whenever I've tried to take a picture of one it's run towards me and tried to eat the camera, and I've never managed to push the button whilst the thing is still in focus!

Pilot DAR

21st Sep 2008, 14:16

My opinion is that the purpose of this forum is to mentor and be mentored. When I first started reading a few years back, I thought, "what a great place to learn" (I already had enough knowledge to usually see a fool writing, and take it with that much value).

I soon realized though, that a lot of the posters were asking questions for which I had well experienced and proven answers. I soon found myself answering a lot more than asking. The asking has not stopped though, it’s just on other forums.

12 years ago I was one of three people who lifted my very dead buddy from his burning and badly crumpled Cessna 150, after he had done something quite similar to that B-52. A number of us had told him to smarten up, and fly right. We should have pushed more, as he was a family man, and the sole owner of a very busy local airport/air service/maintenance facility, his death deeply affected local aviation, and many people’s live were changed.

That event, among other more recent events, has reminded me that those of us who have lived through those learning years of piloting, are now duty bound to give back the best we can, to promote safe and enjoyable aviation. Those of us who value a healthy aviation industry are not served well by the pain and poor public image of accidents. We are not served well by more regulation, whose purpose is to regulate away more privileges because some idiot pilot found a new way to hurt someone, which we would have never imagined. I make my living evaluating and testing aircraft. If people fly less, I work less.

In order to mentor and promote techniques which I know to be safe, I wrote in another thread, the following:

“The object of landing, is to have the aircraft stall wings level, and smoothly stop flying just as it touches the runway in good control, with lots of room ahead. That requires slightly differing techniques in different aircraft, but the end result is the same. If you got a stall warning horn as you gently touched, you probably had a great landing too, and had to explain to some pleased passengers what the stall warning sound was.”

The person who started this thread, took that statement for a run, and after another 200 plus posts, lost. He lost any credibility which had been extended to him out of courtesy, he lost any chance of being considered a peer here (even with the newest of newbies) for a very long time, and he lost the privilege of posting on that thread. The effort which a lot of us expended on his behalf, was, for the most part, apparently wasted. Doubtless, with the attitude demonstrated by this “fully qualified” lesser experienced pilot, people on the ground may one day be lifting him out of a wreck. I do not wish this, but the risk is a reality. I very much wish that this fellow not be permitted to carry passengers because of that higher risk.

That said, if an otherwise airworthy aircraft becomes a useless ball of aluminum at the hands of this pilot, my conscience is clear. I expended effort to mentor a better appreciation for good technique, willingness to learn, and a better attitude. I am convinced it was a waste of my time. I did, along the way though, build a bit of a bond with pilots here who are my peers, or to whom one day I might be a peer.

So that is the purpose of this forum, as I see it.

Dear Moderator, in the other thread, you very effectively fulfilled a request, and a swift and appropriate end was brought to a ridiculous situation. Such worthwhile action on your part might again be worthy of consideration, but perhaps on a wider scale. I suppose it’s worth waiting through a few more posts to see if an attitude improves, but how many chances does someone get?

Pilot DAR

vee-tail-1

21st Sep 2008, 15:24

Thanks Pilot DAR for saying what needs to be said. :hmm:

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 15:30

Hello Pilot DAR

I can't recall having any objection to the particular paragraph you mentioned - if I did please accept my apology as it is in fact quite straightforward and I have no problem with it.

I was banned from that particular thread at my own request!

I really can't see that you would have anything to complain about in regard to this or other threads (apart from the one from which I was banned - I see the comments still flowed after that - which is hardly fair now, is it?)

I have learnt quite a lot - more general advice than techniques per se, from other threads - so please don't take offence.

Flying with other instructors recently has also given me a wider perspective so your picture of me as a puffed up ignorant conceited idiot is not quite correct. ;) I merely objected to some rude and patronising comments - but now I understand that that is par for the course so I won't take it personally!

FREDAcheck

21st Sep 2008, 15:38

Pilot DAR said:
The person who started this thread, took that statement for a run, and after another 200 plus posts, lost. He lost any credibility which had been extended to him out of courtesy, he lost any chance of being considered a peer here (even with the newest of newbies) for a very long time, and he lost the privilege of posting on that thread.
Forgive me, I don't recall that thread so I don't understand your point. I'm sure you're not suggesting the other guy lost credibility just because he didn't agree with you!

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 15:39

Thanks Pilot DAR for saying what needs to be said.

See post #19 by bjornhall - point no 3

Final 3 Greens

21st Sep 2008, 15:41

Just for the record

David Houl52 quoted Pilot DAR

If you got a stall warning horn as you gently touched, you probably had a great landing too

David Houl52 then said

My instructor would kill you if she heard you say this!

What control can you possibly have of your aircraft if it is at stall speed? What would happen if there was a problem and you had to apply full power?

Every instructor has their own pet beliefs about what are the absolutely essential rules to flying. They often contradict each other. Come skills test day one is pleasantly surprised that the examiner is a lot more relaxed and will remind you of what really IS important.

E Harding then said

Before the verbal beatings start, I want you to go away for 30 minutes, maybe lie down in a darkened room, and then come back and explain why that posting of yours was a quintessential expression of the purest form of utter bollocks.

Or we can do the shouty-shouty thing now. Up to you.

I think that E Harding summed things up pretty well

Lasiorhinus

21st Sep 2008, 15:42

Can't be that many wombats flying...

:hmm:

http://www.ozanimals.com/image/albums/australia/Mammal/normal_Z-TT-SHairyWombat.jpg

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 15:43

Can't be that many wombats taking flying lessons these days ?!

Pic taken just after touch down, no doubt!

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 15:46

Just for the record

Oh yes. I remember now. That's the moment I hijacked the thread and it went on just about forever after that!

At that time I didn't realise that Pilot DAR had a semi godlike status on this forum and I just wanted to provoke some discussion.

Worked a treat it seems! (eharding correct so it turned out - but no harm - I learnt a lot about pprune as a result). Might be a good topic for a social psychology master thesis.

Say again s l o w l y

21st Sep 2008, 16:07

No-one has "god like status" apart from in their own minds of course!

As I mentioned many of us have posted on here for years, you get to know who to listen to and who to ignore. Many discussions do end up slightly circular, but that is nature of such things, especially amongst a bunch of ego filled pilots.

If you are seriously saying that the comments you posted were just to encourage debate, then don't be daft. You, I and everyone else knows that that is a quintessential expression of the purest form of utter bollocks.
(Still makes me laugh everytime I read that. I hope you don't mind Ed, but I shall be using that phrase in the future!)

Simple rules to follow when posting here.

1) Don't type nonsense.
2) Don't type anything defamatory.
3) Make sure you can back up any statement you can make with facts.
4) Never be scared to ask questions. There is no such thing as a stupid one. Daft answers maybe.............
5) Keep a sense of humour and make sure you read other peoples posts properly.

bjornhall

21st Sep 2008, 16:09

My opinion is that the purpose of this forum is to mentor and be mentored.

We can stop right there. Quite a few people (I would say the vast majority) come here to discuss flying related matters with other pilots; neither more nor less. Sometimes, one asks questions that one seeks answers to; other times, one wants to discuss matters for which there is no straight answer, but to better formulate opinions. Occasionally, it's about influencing opinions; hardly ever for some, all the time for others... Most of the time, it's just for general aviation chatting, the way you could do at your local club house...

But very rarely, I think and hope, do people come here to receive instruction, tutoring or mentoring. An internet forum would be a rather bizarre place to come look for that. It gives opinions that one can consider; thoughts that one can take up with one's instructor (if applicable) or consider for oneself, whichever applies; suggested facts that one can look up in the relevant publications. Occasionally, information that is non-critical or trivial enough that one can afford to take it at face value. But mentoring, at an internet forum? Hardly!

Far more often, people come here to give such instruction. In a percieved role as mentors, providing instruction to people who they certainly do not consider as peers, their expectations will most probably clash badly with what they will receive from whoever they attempt to instruct. If one asks a vastly more experienced pilot for advice, one will most likely listen, try to learn as much as one can from the conversation, and easily overlook even a hint of "superior" behavior from one's mentor. But if one comes into an internet forum with some question or comment and gets an unexpected telling-to by some unknown internet avatar, demanding that one shuts up and listens to whatever pearls of wisdom said sky-god generously offers, and where disagreeing means one is a) a disgrace for humanity, b) a danger to onself and everyone else, c) not worthy of even participating in the discussion, let alone to be considered a peer of other pilots, or d) all of the above, one will probably not respond in quite the respectful manner the self-appointed mentor had expected.

And that is a great shame, because people like Pilot DAR or Chuck do seem to have that extraordinarily rare degree of experience and knowledge that make what they say worth listening to as 'instruction' or 'mentoring', even at an internet forum. I appreciate tremendously what they, and very few others, post along those lines. But to appreciate it one has to know this place; it would be naive indeed for a new forum visitor to take that kind of instruction to heart without having taken quite some time to learn who is who on the forum, who is generously sharing their significant knowledge and who is just puffing up their own ego.

Thus, and this is my point: When the view that "this is a place for (mostly) general aviation pilots to discuss general aviation" meets the view that "this is a place for mentoring", the result is an inevitable clash. The resulting carnage, which can hardly even be called a discussion, will hardly give any benefit to anybody, and what is said will very poorly reflect on the attitudes, skills or knowledge of those participating. It is a waste of everyone's time, and a source of animosity for a long time after.

I most sincerely disagree with the quite revolting things Pilot DAR had to say about David above, and think it is a great shame such nonsense is put on the forum. I certainly consider him a peer, and don't think for a moment that anything we have seen of his attitude or flying makes him unsafe. I do not believe for a second you get any meaningful knowledge of a person's flying abilities from a few comments posted on an internet forum!

That I disagree with the landing techniques he expressed, as I understood them, is another matter entirely... But such things can be sorted out through discussion and arguing of various facts and factors, with no patronizing or self-righteous ego bashing involved.

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 16:12

quintessential expression of the purest form of utter bollocks.

I think that was the comment that got me rolling....

Your rules are good. I tried to keep of sense of humour throughout but a lot of the other posts were hardly acceptable I felt and I responded in kind. I really don't think it is just I who needs to apologize!

bigfoot01

21st Sep 2008, 16:35

Nostalgia ain’t wot it used to be. :}

Fuji Abound

21st Sep 2008, 16:36

But very rarely, I think and hope, do people come here to receive instruction, tutoring or mentoring. An internet forum would be a rather bizarre place to come look for that. It gives opinions that one can consider; thoughts that one can take up with one's instructor (if applicable) or consider for oneself, whichever applies; suggested facts that one can look up in the relevant publications. Occasionally, information that is non-critical or trivial enough that one can afford to take it at face value. But mentoring, at an internet forum? Hardly!

Rubbish.

People ask questions here all the time. It is very rare they dont get the correct answer - assuming there is one.

The problem, I would agree is sometimes sorting out the correct answer from those who dont know what they are talking about. However, even that can usually be deduced.

I have learnt as much about flying here by trying out some of the answers as anywhere.

That said, obvioulsy the forum will not teach you how to fly an aero routine or an IAP - it tends to be a bit more specific than that.

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 16:47

I most sincerely disagree with the quite revolting things Pilot DAR had to say about David above, and think it is a great shame such nonsense is put on the forum. I certainly consider him a peer, and don't think for a moment that anything we have seen of his attitude or flying makes him unsafe.

Thank you for your confidence!

A breath of fresh air and common sense amidst the smoke of a upside down crazy small-mindedness.

Pilot DAR

21st Sep 2008, 17:18

Bjornhall's comments have great value, and I appreciate them.

In an attempt to recongnize the need to combat complancency, and the risk of creeping toward "self determined god likeness" (I try not to be there, I'm only a PPL), I took more flight training in the last two years. I had two first solos, thirty years apart. I now have two licenses.

With one license, I owe a debt to help others, if I can, with the other license, I am obligated to listen a lot (as I was told more than once during training). I have fresh recollection of being a mere newbie student pilot, and feeling the foolishness of screwing up, and actually causing the need for an inspection - Boy, I felt dumb that day! I did ask a question on PPRuNe about my screwup.....

However, I have a moral obligation to my fellow human, to the extent that they are willing to consider my opinion, to help them prevent a safety failing, even if it means pointing out they seem to be failing. If you saw someone taxiing out for takeoff with the control locks on, how much effort would you put into stopping them? I once actually stood between a pilot I knew, who was having a bit of a fit, and his plane. I told him that he was not mentally fit to fly at that moment, and a danger to himself. He stopped, thought for a moment, and agreed. In that instant, his fit 75% disappeared, and he said, "you're right, I'll calm down before I fly". With that I let him pass, and he flew very successfully a few minutes later. Perhaps I helped him, you judge....

If I read a poster presenting his attitude as being unwilling to consider a safer way of (attitude toward) flying, I may post back in an effort to help. If I see a poster fight with dozens of posts to object to what many obviously experienced pilots are presenting to help him, I will post back out of an obligation to "help". When that poster said I stopped, though [I]he came back with more fight....

We can each get tangled up in ourselves from time to time. When this happens, help from the outside is warranted. If it comes from an unknown person from another continent, via the internet, that does not necessarily make it not worthwhile.

I was thinking about the several references in the posts to "publications" as an authoritative place to gain wisdom and answers. One must choose the "publication" wisely to assure that it is appropriate, and seems authoritative. I've seen magazines which contained errors, I've seen textbooks, which were limited in their presentations, perhaps due to liability concerns. (I have seen a Cessna publication in the distant past titled "Getting the maximum performance out of the Cessna 150". I suspect the reason that you can no longer find that publication is based in liability concerns - Cessna would know how to write that book!)

I have read a lot of excellent and appropriate wisdom here. Perhaps those valuable writers chose to write here, instead in a magazine or text book, that day....

There are poster on PPRuNe who I ask first, before I pick up their, or another book.

Is this not a "publication" in our new world of instant communication?

Pilot DAR

Pilot DAR

21st Sep 2008, 17:24

Quote:
I most sincerely disagree with the quite revolting things Pilot DAR had to say about David above, and think it is a great shame such nonsense is put on the forum. I certainly consider him a peer, and don't think for a moment that anything we have seen of his attitude or flying makes him unsafe.
Thank you for your confidence!

A breath of fresh air and common sense amidst the smoke of a upside down crazy small-mindedness.

Yes, if you like, but keep it all in it's proper and complete context....

... by the way, who among the posters offered David free flying to demonstrate what was being stated in the post?.... It was not a hollow offer...

FREDAcheck

21st Sep 2008, 17:25

Say again s l o w l y said:

No-one has "god like status" apart from in their own minds of course!

...

Simple rules to follow when posting here.

1) Don't type nonsense.
2) Don't type anything defamatory.
3) Make sure you can back up any statement you can make with facts.
4) Never be scared to ask questions. There is no such thing as a stupid one. Daft answers maybe.............
5) Keep a sense of humour and make sure you read other peoples posts properly.

Final 3 Greens said:

Calling you an idiot is not rude, it is fair comment.

It may be fair comment, but it is also rude and defamatory.

I'm sure it's very frustrating when someone says something you think (or know) is b$ll$cks, but to tell them they're an idiot is is unlikely to persuade them the error of their ways.

As Fuji said:

...I don’t think they ever “told” me what to do. There was the occasional - why don’t you try this, see how that works for you...

Maybe Final 3 Greens is right, and the best thing is to tell people they're idiots; maybe that works in some circumstances (in authoritarian organisations, perhaps) but I think the gentle approach is usually more effective.

IO540

21st Sep 2008, 17:31

Can you libel an anonymous person?

I don't think he could sue because, being anonymous, no damage to his reputation could have been done.

Chuck Ellsworth

21st Sep 2008, 17:50

If you got a stall warning horn as you gently touched, you probably had a great landing too:

David Houl52 then said:

Quote:
My instructor would kill you if she heard you say this!:

And therein lies part of the problem, as long as there are flight instructors teaching such rubbish we shall forever be saddled with " Davids " believing such rubbish.

So how do we weed out such instructors? ( Assuming of course David is being truthful here. )

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 18:05

Pilot DAR and others,

Thank you for your kind offer for free flying lessons! Not very practical as we live on different continents.

I hear what you are saying about my coming back again and again with my postings. The reason for this was that I really didn't feel I had an adequate response that made sense to me. One of the best arguments which made me think again actually came from another new PPL!

What made it a fight was the rudeness and the patronising attitude. I wouldn't like to fly with someone like that no matter how experienced. And it means that I don't take you seriously on this forum either.

Telling me I'm going to kill myself, I'm incompetent, I need re-training, I need to be retake my skills test. Are you implying that you know better than the CAA? Careful! How helpful is that in any case? What right do you or any one else have to make that kind of statement? (You don't)

You also give the impression that I need to earn my right to be heard on PPRune. Let me be quite clear. PPRune is not something I need to be able to fly. I do not need the approval of anybody in this forum. If the CAA says I'm safe to fly no one else can take that away. I am able to hire aircraft because my flying club does not have any concern whatsoever about my flying. Other clubs will hire me aircraft on the strength of a check-out - not by what is written in an internet column.

If you want new pilots to join you in discussion then be a decent human being and welcome them. If they say something you disagree with then answer from your experience and in a respectful way. Being sarcastic, rude, patronising is not the way to do it.

It is YOU who needs to earn the right to be heard. And you have to do that with each and every person you encounter.

It's also a lot of nonsense that I wrote stuff that indicated I was unsafe to fly - so why did you have to exaggerate like you did? Standing between a pilot in a fit of rage, drunk or whatever is not in the same category at all.

On the subject of publications - well one realises that they may not be 100% accurate - but at least they have been through a screening process and that can be held libel for what they write. The internet is responsible to no one.

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 18:07

So how do we weed out such instructors?

Another dangerous comment. You have no right to say such a thing. How dare you!

Your ego is much too bloated for your own good. A pilot with an inflated ego is not a safe pilot.

stiknruda

21st Sep 2008, 18:27

David - I think that you might be a troll?

If not you are a freaking idiot.

I shan't be offering to fly with you.

And I post on here far more infrequently than I used to because it seems to be full of bottom-feeders.

Stik

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 18:32

Say again s l o w l y

21st Sep 2008, 18:40

Libel laws being as they are. I think you are pretty immune from being dragged into the courts if you call someone an idiot on an internet bulletin board. Especially if they blatantly are being one!

Mind you, these forums aren't that anonymous. Are they David........

You do need a good filter with many of the posts on here, but there is some gold. I've learnt quite a bit from here, not much about the specifics of flying an aircraft, but more what people want from clubs and schools. I've tried to incorporate much of what I've read in my teaching.

This place has, I think, made me a better instructor.

Personalities being what they are, you will always get arguments over semantics, but when someone is spouting rubbish and won't listen to freely given advice, it does grate a bit and you get people reacting.

Inexperienced argumentative know it alls are nothing new in flying. Most of us have been a bit guilty of being a bit of that at some points in our flying careers, especially those of us that qualified at an early age. I was a teenager when I got my CPL and very early 20's when I started instructing. Now I look back and see how different my attitude is.

I scared myself senseless a couple of times and definately have a fair few ILAFT stories. My goal now is to try and help others avoid the mistakes I made. I got through my first thousand hours withou nailing myself to a tree, sometimes through luck rather than judgement.

I'm totally open to all my students about the things I did and why I was such a pratt. Hopefully they and others might not repeat the mistakes I made and won't rely on their luck as I did.

So David, you won't be the first or the last to come out with a load of old gubbins without the knowledge to back it up, but do try and realise that it is never good to go and antagonise people and continue to come out with totally wrong statements.

I have no problem if you asked a question "I've been told this by my FI, is that correct or is there another method?" but when you present statements as fact without thinking about them, you will get people rolling their eyes and going "oh god, here we go again...................."

Don't worry about David's FI Chuck.

A little word of warning. Whilst the CAA can't take your licence away for what you post here. It is hard to fly without an aircraft and unless you own your own, making an utter tit of yourself here can count against you.
As I mentioned before, lots of people have read these threads and judging by the number of calls and e-mails I've recieved about them. You may find yourself finding it more difficult to hire than you would have previously.

Just a bit of friendly advice there.

Chuck Ellsworth

21st Sep 2008, 18:42

I wonder how much longer the mods are going to allow this to go on?

Contacttower

21st Sep 2008, 18:44

Libel laws being as they are. I think you are pretty immune from being dragged into the courts if you call someone an idiot on an internet bulletin board. Especially if they blatantly are being one!

Perhaps BRL could comment on this?

Didn't the owners of OBA threaten to sue (PPRuNe?) over a some of the stuff that had been written on here?

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 18:51

Thanks Say Again Slowly.

I don't think I said MANY things that were wrong. I'm very concious that I'm being portrayed as this naive new pilot who thinks he knows it all. I'm not like that at all! But I'm also not the sort of person just to accept statements without good reason. Somebody praised me (????) for thinking for myself when it came to what my FI told me. Yet that same person expects me to believe everything they say without question?

The question I posed at the beginning of THIS thread is relevant here. The general consensus was that the purpose of this column was to throw ideas around as in a flying club bar. Everyone knows that a whole lot of rubbish comes up there. I've already been warned not to take any notice of it.

And really - you all ganging up on one person like that - really - are we school children or what?

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 18:54

As I mentioned before, lots of people have read these threads and judging by the number of calls and e-mails I've recieved about them. You may find yourself finding it more difficult to hire than you would have previously.

Surprising! Bit late now, isn't it :sad: Must say I'm very disalusioned with GA if that is the case. Small wonder most PPLs give up before they get to 100 hours

Say again s l o w l y

21st Sep 2008, 18:59

A very, very different situation. OBA were getting a real slagging. Hoever they didn't initiate it.

Think about it in this way. Calling someone a plonker or an idiot in the street wouldn't get you sued, so why would it make a difference here? Especially as the other person has the right to reply and is making full use of that.

David. I don't need to earn the right to do anything and nor does Chuck, DAR or anyone else.

You can choose not to listen if you want. That is your perogative. A silly one in my eyes, but there you go.

I have no idea what job you do for a living, but imagine I walked into your office and as someone who had no experience started to spout nonsense and pontificate to people with a whole load of experience. Well, you are doing the same. You are coming in and telling people whose profession and passion it is to fly and to teach that they are wrong.

At what point would you get annoyed if I came into your office and did that? Pretty sharpish I reckon.

Ganging up on you? What are you twelve?

You have a whole load of experienced people telling you the same thing and yet you disregard it and cry "foul".

You seem to have an inability to look at what part you've played in all of this and take stock of why you have had the reaction you have.

All the e-mails and calls I've recieved have been spontaneous. I haven't initiated any of them and I have to say, it is the first time anything like this has happened.

This is a small industry and once you've been involved in it for a while, you tend to know most it!

This is more a reflection on the attitude displayed than anything else. Flying skill can be taught, what goes on between the ears cannot. We can try and influence it, but that is all.

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 19:01

If I promise not to make any more categorical statements (about flying that is), is there any chance you will all go way and leave me alone?

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 19:09

I have no idea what job you do for a living, but imagine I walked into your office and as someone who had no experience started to spout nonsense and pontificate to people with a whole load of experience. Well, you are doing the same. You are coming in and telling people whose profession and passion it is to fly and to teach that they are wrong.

I understand your point Say Again Slowly, but as I said before, I had no idea that it would be taken that seriously. I thought this was supposed to be "Private Flying"

I think I have enough support from those who consider I've been unfairly stomped on in this. I'm more than happy to apologise for upsetting people and for saying things about flying that I couldn't back up.

If one or more of the my main detractors could apologise for unnecessary attack on my good self and flying skills then maybe we could call this a day?

Say again s l o w l y

21st Sep 2008, 19:16

David, you are holding onto the odd comment that agrees with the odd point you've made, but disregarding anything negative.

To get better, you need to listen to stuff that is sometimes unpalatable. Suspend your ego and take the comments constructive as much as possible.

Sometimes you need to hold your hands up. Apologise for being a plonker and get on with it. I've certainly had plenty of kicks up the bum in my flying life. Some seem harsh, but now with the benefit of hindsight I realise that they were well deserved.

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 19:33

I am not referring to comments about flying.

There are a number of posters who think the attacks on me on were uncalled for and out of order, Bjornhall being the more eloquent of them.

This is much ado about very little, in fact. I shouldn't have fed the flames I suppose - I'm sorry, I really didn't think it would be taken that seriously and like anyone else, I like a bit of debate.

I'm really NOT going to get involved in any such discussion on this forum ever again. I'll keep to innocous and non-controversial subjects. Maybe post some photos.

This is so ridiculous, I just can't believe it!

BackPacker

21st Sep 2008, 19:41

I'm not trying to stir the pot again but it has occurred to me that some of heat in previous postings back and forth might be due to my not having an understanding of the purpose of this forum.

Let me steer the thread in a slightly different direction. The purpose of this forum, at least for the owners, is simply to make money. At the very least, sufficient money to cover the expenses in hardware, electricity, bandwidth, maintenance, and maybe even a tiny (or huge, I have no idea) profit.

If you look around your screen you'll see that the main way of trying to do this is by advertising. While I'm typing this my scrollbar on the right indicates that I'm only viewing approximately one tenth of the total page and there are already three ads moving and flashing to attract my attention. If you're on a reading instead of posting page, the number goes up even higher.

I'm not judging this. Most free forums and other places on the internet use advertising these days to generate an income.

These advertisers normally only pay for their advertising based on page views. The more an advert is seen (and clicked on, hopefully) the more money PPRuNe gets. Do me a favour and hover over one of the adverts on the current page. Don't click on it, but watch where the URL takes you. It's not directly to the company that pays for the advert. Instead, you go to a website of an intermediary first (doubleclick.net seems to be the preferred one right now) who immediately forwards you to the proper website. But through clever usage of links and cookies this intermediary is able to establish that you clicked on an advert showing on a PPRuNe page so PPRuNe is owed money.

Okay, so PPRuNe is helped with as many page views as possible. That means it's in the final interest of PPRuNe to have heated debates here, with lots of people participating and venting their opinion, and even larger numbers of people just reading the discussion without participating. For this reason, PPRuNe should encourage people like David and Sternone (remember him?) to keep stirring the pot, even when it means making an *ss out of themselves.

There is a drawback though. A forum can only tolerate a certain amount of stirring (for lack of a better word) before the regular posters, the ones that really have something to add here, decide to walk away. G-EMMA being a case in point (and I'm glad you're back, G-EMMA) but there are definitely others whose contributions were valued by a lot of people, who decided to leave here.

The Trimming, Landing & Instructors thread stands at just under 5000 views as I write this. I don't know how many views there were before David resurrected the thread on Sep 12, but it will have been far less. In pageviews, it's only topped by the Doncaster Sheffield thread, a bunch of sticky threads (no surprise there) and The Private Flying Photo Album which, as far as I'm concerned, does not need sticky status because it's at the top of the pile almost continuously.

But if you look at the TL&I thread you'll see that near the end it was the same small group posting the same things over and over, with no significant amount of new content or interesting views being added (a few posts excepted). That may well have been in the interest of safety and trying to convince David that he was wrong, but it wasn't in the interest of PPRuNe anymore.

An empty forum, or a forum filled with windbags, means no readers thus no pageviews thus no advertising income. That's where moderation comes in: people like BRL to make sure that the worst offenders, the ones that might turn others away eventually, get banned. First from a single thread, but the next step should be from the forum and eventually from the site. Kudos to BRL for making sure the discussion petered out at TL&I thread. Of course calling the Chucks and Eds of this forum "nazis" did not exactly help Davids case.

So back to the original question. Contentwise the purpose of this forum is not dictated by the PPRuNe management. It's not even dictated by the moderators. It's what we ourselves make of it. As long as you conduct yourself reasonably and responsibly, don't go too far in calling people names, be prepared to accept answers to your questions that may not quite fit with what you know, and are prepared to invest a little time to learn whose opinions can be trusted and whose not, anything goes. As long as it has to do with Private Flying.

And as long as it attracts a large number of readers, thus pageviews thus advertising income.

Pilot DAR

21st Sep 2008, 19:44

I was banned from that particular thread at my own request!

Yeah, I remember.... It was sort of like: "I resign. If I forget I resigned, and show up for work again, please fire me." The moderator (boss) was unhappy enough with you, he called your bluff, and fired you on the spot.

If I don't like a particular restaurant, I don't say to the waiter: "if I come to eat again, please ask me to leave", I just don't go back. It's so much easier!

Being accepted into any group is a privilage extended by that group, not a right - you chose the group, not the group chose you. Standing at the outside edge of a group can be done, and I suppose verges on being a right, but if you make enough noise, the group will turn on you. Groups are made up of people, and all people have their capacity for nonsense! If you want to be accepted into a group, figure out what that group sees as being nonsense, and keep it the minimum! You got the warning about what nonsense is here, before the group turned on you....

Pilot DAR

Say again s l o w l y

21st Sep 2008, 19:49

In 5 years time, come back to any of these threads and then let us know what you think of the comments then.

What you have consistently failed to grasp in my eyes is not about the flying or about the actual statements, but how you have tried to justify an untenable position. This isn't a peeing up the wall match. Again you mention that one person has jumped to your defence whilst convieniently ignoring the fact that it takes an awful lot to rile up people like Chuck and DAR. Neither are known as vitriolic posters and yet with just a few lines you've got them reaching for the blood pressure pills. (I've just noticed Stik's comment as well. Also not one of the people I usually expect to get wound up easily. He's usually far too relaxed. It's all that G he likes pulling!)

It's quite a skill! I'm far easier to wind up, so that's no where near as much of an achievement.

Do please continue to post here

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 19:49

Didn't notice the ads at the top of the page until now. They're actually quite interesting!:ok:

Pilot DAR

21st Sep 2008, 19:50

Thanks Backpacker!

I had never thought of that aspect! I know a lot less about websites than airplanes!

Let the balancing of all forces continue.....

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 19:52

You've been one of the most consistent and interesting of the posters - Say Again Slowly! Sort of on the fence but more on their side than mine - but that's ok.

Well at least I can take comfort is that all this free entertainment is at my expense!

DavidHoul52

21st Sep 2008, 19:54

My girlfriend will be happy if I never fly again...:sad:

Contacttower

21st Sep 2008, 19:54

Didn't notice the ads at the top of the page until now. They're actually quite interesting!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Planning on getting an ATPL for £33,000 are we? :D:D:D

Or perhaps for an individual of your caliber the B747 line training as provided by Eagle Jet International? ;)

Flying Farmer

21st Sep 2008, 19:56

David I haven't stepped in until now, have just been watching this and other posts grow, with morbid fasination.

What you have in your hands as a PPL holder is a licence to learn, nothing more nothing less. You have met the basic requirements needed to hold the licence, nothing more.

I was told by one of the many examiners that I have had that with the PPL the examiner was happy for me to fly him as a passenger. With the CPL he was happy for me to fly his family. With the ATPL, I leave you to guess that.

Please be aware that the examiner passed you for one reason, on the day you carried out the sections of the PPL test to the required level of competence, nothing more.

It is a licence to learn, many have gone before you who don't want you to make the same mistakes they did. Please learn from them.

Its an unforgiving enviornment we operate in, when it goes wrong it tends to big time. Don't let your attitude make you the next statistic.