Qatar Airways losing instructors

[A320 Man]

Is there any one who cares about the future of QA?

Never mind the incompetent crew helpdesk, or the bad rostering, lately we are taking a serious turn in the flight ops, especially the training department.

Forcing A330 instructors to fly the 320 after denying them to fly the 777, while denying the 320 instructors their right of moving to other types!!!
It sounds like simply: "annoying everyone policy".

Surprise: your instructors of both types are having interviews in Ehihad during September and October.
I am writing this out of care to this company that I served for many years, it hurts to see the new ops management demoralizing their personnel like that.

I paid my time on the 320 and will never fly it again, force me if you can.

The problem will never be solved like that for the 320 trainers, simply because the 330 TREs will become 320 SFEs also, meaning: the 320 TRE will automatically do the LI job since on one else will fly the line training flights, and the 330 fleet has no shortage of the Line instructors, it is simple mathematics and pilots see it.

I know that many 320 trainers will resign the training soon, just to go to either another type or another airline.

Ops management: try to keep them, before it is too late, unless you want them out so other TREs/TRIs may join QA as direct entry instructors!

I have a question: why did you deny the 330 trainers to go to the 777 and now you want them to co-operate by demoting them without any financial compensation?

I am shopping around and it seems that Korean is a good option with a commuting contract.

[A320 Man]

This comment below is from Max, I hope you don't mind moving it here from the other thread Max.

They won't be reading PPRUNE my friend as they are far too busy doing their A330 CCQ courses. If not busy with that then they are occupied trying forcing A330 trainers to the A320!

The new British flight ops management (both former experienced 320 drivers) would have been more useful getting A320 training endorsements on their licences and helping out in the training department rather than doing A330 CCQ.

Guess everyone needs to leave this place with something to show for their time here.

Whats next? Direct entry trainers from the UK to Qatar?

Max

[A320 Man]

This post is froma friend who did not want his handle revieled:

The only reason to become instructor for QR is to increase the salary,because the job sucks,flying only turn around flights .And not long time ago giving basic instructions in a A330 for a S/O with only 200 hs TT.(not S/O's fault.It's the Company lack of vision)

That's why the majority of the guys left after paying debts and the ones who continue stays only because they are building houses elsewhere and need money to pay the loans,and the majority of them piss the brain of the trainees with a lot of BS.

We normally see in line FO's with only 2 months in the Comany wishing to go,because the training captains during the sim and the line destroying any desire from them to have a life and stay in the sandpit.

Money is not enought to keep these people among us.
And What about the experienced FO's .Here they call them Senior with 3 stripes after flying for 3 yrs and them fail a lot of them during Captain training.And we know that most of them fly better and safe than a lot of DEC's among us.

That's Good for some far east low cost companies that are currently getting a lot of our good experienced FO's to fill their Captain ranks.

I feel really bad about this because those people spent 4-5 yrs in the sandpit for nothing,or some new guys came here with a very good background from places as far as Latin and Central America countries and USA as well and could be here for a long time to help the company grow,but they left with anger.Maybe is the QR Karma.

QR could be good,i mean a very good company to work for. But ......

I am leaving as well.I can't cope with the lack of motivation and lack of happiness even among the flight deck crew.Even if they pay me 10 times is not enough.I am losing my faith and i became a racist,because of some Ind...(nationalities)!

[P.Clostermann]

Sad but oh so true!

Makes you wonder why managers in flight ops have such a huge lack of people knowledge. Its like management puts them there on purpose just to demoralise every single crew that enters the technical building...

[A320 Man]

I don't think that you know that their decisions are demoralising their staff, I guess they just don't realise the long term effect!

Some one have to show them the large numbers of captains f/o's and trainers leaving the airline, this is an expensive process (against the saving of the MFF concept).

Unless like Max said:" the plan is to piss off the instructors, so the friends from home can join QR as direct entry instructors" well....maybe that is why they said: we don't care about the seniority any more...any fleet transfer is going to be by selection and merit?

[A320 Man]

I have a suggestion that will make every one happy, productive and loyal.

330 instructors to be transferred to the 777,
320 instructors to the 340,
new instructors appointed on the 320.

The fact that 777 planes are arriving in high flow staring next June will help this plan.

It will set the example for both new joiners and the junior capts/trainers with this positive message.

[Mr Ho]

Wat is this crazyness? A320 man just talking talking talking all to him self. You need friend A320 then put name on Fanbox :8

[A320 Man]

Mr Ho, what is your problem?

If you have a useful input go ahead, if you are not interested why bother with reading or even replying???

Thank you for your support for your fellow pilots anyway!

[A330 man]

Mr. Ho, What kind of crazy comment was that?? Can't you read? The 320 man was quoting from others as well.

Very useful information from 320 man, I personally appreciate it.
No one shares info in QA, we should be thankful for shedding the light on such important matter, at least for the pilots who would be trainers in the near future.

Mr. Ho, you could act like a mature man and send a private message or like 320 man said: why bother? Just leave the thread!!

Or maybe you are one of the management? And you don't like your true colors revealed here??

Thanks a lot A320 man, keep us informed and I personally took a decision to resign training if I was forced to go back to the 320 fleet.

[Qatari515]

So who is behind the so called "pissing off" plot?

The Latin Americans?
The Algerians?
The Indians?
The Arab League in general?

In all honesty, I think that theory is a bit far fetched. There simply are too many nationalities in this airline and the times where one big maffia group was ruling certain parts in flight ops are long gone...It only still exists in the rostering department..

What is absolutely true I think is that this new policy for trainers has pissed of ALL parties involved and was not a particular bright move! It might seem to be a perfect solution to your problems as a manager flying a desk in an office, but in real life it is a disaster!
Besides that, it shows a particular lack of knowledge of company and region's culture! Transferring on a larger airplane in most cases is still seen as a promotion! So forcing an A330 TRE to be SFE on the A320 would be seen as a demotion!

This airline seriously needs to start thinking in parts of career planning and long term solutions.
A pilot, if ambitious enough, should be allowed to plan out his whole career, with clear stepstones.

A320 made a good start point allready. Everybody should put in his/her duties on the A320 first. Its damn hard work, long days, lots of duty for half of the flying time. After a certain time there you could be allowed to go and sit in the lazy seat of a widebody plane!
This should be certainly the case for people wanting to go in training!

The way it is arranged now is totally erratic! Lets say your ambition is to be TRE on the A330, but currently you are flying the A320.
It actually is faster for you if you just do your job as CApt A320 (refuse the offers to go in trng), do your term, transfer after 2 years on the A330 and accept the invitation as LTC on A330 --> TRI --> TRE!!!

The new policy tackles this a little bit by demanding 1000hrs PIC on the airplane before becoming LTC, but there is always that little note which allows the company anything in case needed.

DEC can still join on A330 or T7 and become LTC after 6 months, hereby pissing of all those people who are putting in their best efforts on the others fleets since years before!

The only solution would be to have all instructors channel through one or two base fleets and have them work their way up in the company! Only this guarantees the honoring of seniority.

As long as seniority is being violated on a daily bases in this company, they wont create the much needed loyalty to build a solid instructor core for the future.

A plan like this might cause some additional problems at the kick off point, but on the long term it will be smooth running and self- feeding system!


Am I asking too much once more?:confused:

[A300Man]

Hello A320Man and A330Man. All we need is A340Man and the entire QR Airbus fleet is here on this thread!!

Sorry to hear that morale is still so low at Qatar. Good post - as usual - Qatari 515.

[skya320]

Thanks for great info. A320MAN and Qatari515 :ok: Totally agreed with both of you. Management are mostlikely not to response until they actually see some aircraft parking due to lack of pilots.

Just hope that someday my hard work here will pay off, or I will have to consider resigning just like everyone else.

[A330 man]

QR 515, you are absolutely correct when you said:

Lets say your ambition is to be TRE on the A330, but currently you are flying the A320.
It actually is faster for you if you just do your job as CApt A320 (refuse the offers to go in trng), do your term, transfer after 2 years on the A330 and accept the invitation as LTC on A330 --> TRI --> TRE!!!

DEC can still join on A330 or T7 and become LTC after 6 months, hereby pissing of all those people who are putting in their best efforts on the others fleets since years before!


It is actually happening for my friends who were "loyal enough" and accepted to stay on the 320 doing the hard work for 3 years to go later on the 330 or even to the 340 TREs like M.H, who worked hard on the 320 earlier, so it was a positive message that all is gonna be OK in the bright horizon, suddenly all is cancelled, no fleet transfer for them and we(330 TREs) have to go to the 320!!

I wonder why the 320 captains on the management seats did not come as DEC on the 320 to give a helping hand?? They chose instead to fly the 330 and on their way to get the 777 rating!!!

I understand that some managers don't practice what they preach, but I don't understand why deny others the same privilege especially after their hard work for the airline!!

I did my time on the 320, it is a very hard work and not rewarding, unpaid long ground time, too many daily sectors and not many good night stops.

Why should I do it again when I have so many chances to fly 330 in many countries (including commuting contract option)?

This new policy is a wrong message for all the 320 captains, no one will accept the training offer anymore.

[A320 Man]

Qatari515, let me correct you on one thing:the 320 is not considered a demotion because it is a smaller type, simply because it is harder work, for less money.

Otherwise, the new comers in the management team would fly it -since they were currnt 320 captains- when they joined the airline, but they also put their eyes on the "bigger" type form day one!

[A330 man]

It is very normal that any new management trying to implement new policies serving their goals and ideas.
On the other hand we should always have alternative plans.
Short term plan: which some have mentioned resign the 320 training and fly as a "330 or 777 line captain" and forget the instructor position (it doesn't worth any way, especially on the 320).
The 330 instructors may apply for the 777 transfer.

Long term plane: shop around for another airline/country.
I think the 320 instructors should wait few weeks & see if this "promised" MFF (mixed fleet flying) is going to start at all or not? then you may decide.

If they start the 320 to 330 CCQ soon, it is better for the junior instructors, if not then you know you are stuck for long years on 320 doing the hard work (double rotation...etc) while the 330 SFEs are using your sim slots, in other words you will be line instructors with TRE salary!

[A320 Man]

As you mentioned, people started resigning from the 320 training, at least one I know, and the others are waiting for few weeks to see if the MFF to the 330 will ever happen or is it just another management promise.

I tell the 320 guys the MFF is not the answer for your career, you will stay on the 320 forever while you are just keeping the 330 current on your license by flying the minimum requried hours on type. That is not a real change in your life style.

[Mr Ho]

A320 girl and A330 girl you are still just talking talking talking. I meet big chief katamite and he no like you, he know who you are and watch you every thing. He know you to 515 and say you talk to much but he like you. If instructor dont like goat then go away. Many wait be instructor as I do :8

[A320 Man]

I warned you befor mr Ho, if you are not a polite guy and you want to be like that in public....enjoy my public reply:

aha... so you are not only impolite, inconsiderate kid, you are also a snitcher.

Good for you baby... go and tell maybe you will be a captain then an instructor too one day.

Your quality shows..... enjoy it, and I don't care who knows me, I can tell you who am I, but you have to earn it.... go to my Chief pilot...check the resignation letter on his desk, read my name clearly, unfortunately you have to wait 3 months before I go, so your boss may give you my post.

P.S. you will not get it because he doesn't respect people like you.

I feel sorry that a kid like you is one of us, ......but not for long.

Ho, go and read the other forums too so you have information to relay to your boss.
P.S. stop licking someone's a** and wipe this brown peace of sh** off your nose

[Qatari515]

A320 man, dont allow this imposter to get on your nerves man!

Honestly, thats all what he wants to do. In the beginning I found his fake chinese-english funny and entertaining, but by now he has degraded himself to the likes of CEO PITA (remember him?)

Look at him as the clown of this forum, the guy providing the funny note. But do not take him seriously please.

On one thing I dont agree 100% with you however. Maybe for you and me type of aircraft does not mean promotion or demotion, but I know the majority of the pilots here DO care about the size of their flying tube! A very unfortunate thing, almost childish one could argue, but its there. This is a largely underestimated fact by our leaders and is due to a lack of understanding of how things work overhere.
Add to that the differences in pay ( can be almost 3000USD/month for exactly the same job, just on a different plane) and you have a rather explosive mixture....

HO, does he know all 5 of us?;)

[A330 man]

A320 man, don't dignify such an axx lickxx like Mr. Ho with a reply, no respectable man would write this B.S
.
Do you know why he is not sending you private messages? Because he is a management boy.
He is longing to be an instructor but we all know that such a character will never be one.
He cannot even spell English, forget about teaching!!

I wonder why he is in this thread at all if he in not a trainer, oh I forget to tell his boss what's on and gain points!

Congratulations mr ho (management boy).

Obviously our talk touched a nerve, but anyone in his right state of mind would realize it is to open the eyes on the decision makers on the damage resulting of the new policy.

[EGGW]

Please remember, that people post things and say things to elicit a certain reaction. Please think before hitting the reply button! There are certain wind up merchants around here :=

Carry on..

EGGW

[A320 Man]

QR515, thank you for your wise, respectable words, I agree with you on the " clown of the forum" description.

Also, you are correct regarding the difference in income between types, that is why many pilots don't like the 320 life style especially when there is no money compensation.

P.S. Thank you 330 man for your comment also.

[Goat Liner]

Why would any QR pilot decide to become a Training Captain? I have been thinking it over the last few months and it doesn't make sense!

First, the money.The increment to the basic salary as an instuctor is so little its insulting. That means that to earn the big money you need to work flat out during the whole month, and even then there is little difference between a TRI/TRE salary and the salary of a 330/340 line captain who has much more time off and doesn't scare himself silly training second officers every few days!

Second, career progression. As others have mentioned, right now it seems that the only parameter that decides who goes on which type is blind luck! You have 320 guys stuck on that forever, 330 guys that go on 777 or 340 or... SFE 320!? Based on what, seniority? Last one standing? who knows. What if QR buys regional jets? who is gonna go? 330 TRE's or 320. As the previous poster said, want to be an instructor? start on 320 and everybody moves up. Fair and easy.

Third, Risk exposure. Qr is well known as an airline that will quickly demote you or fire you if you have some kind of 'issue' during a flight. With the standards of the majority of trainees here, Training captains can be (and have been) demoted at any time. Want to hold on to that wide body command: don't become a training captain!

[A330 man]

Good words from goat liner. logical thinking, I wonder why most of the pilots see it but not the CPT?

[The Tramp]

The obvious reaction to the Training environment is to say - NO. However I have met some guys that are considering 'promotion' to the heady heights of being a Line Training Captain. Now, unless you are an Italian, blonde, and have been 'decorated', or perhaps with an Italian connection (A320) the future is bleak. The CTC is British but likes to s***w his own to secure his own position. He is also weak as a leader. There is NO future in Training.

He (IM) has done little other than prove that if you are a Training Captain you will get 'had' over a barrel. Training here is Mickey Mouse to say the least. Some of the Trainers want quality control, but current the DCT on the A320 wants only his own adgenda.

What has the Grief Training Captain done apart from making mistakes? I appreciate that, although it takes time, the Training has not improved since his expensive introduction.

Time to roll the 'cube' again.

[A330 man]

DCT on the A320 wants only his own adgenda.

Tramp, would you explain further what is the hidden agenda of DCPT 320?

I saw in previous airlines that CP's and CPT are gaining benefits for themselves, I can relate to that, what I don't understand is why deny the other pilots "some" privileges too by listening to their desires that don't harm the company a bit?

e.g:
1-Fleet transfer: don't change the fleet transfer rules over night affecting hard working pilots and instructors.

2-Resigning training without punishment: two line instructors resigned the LTC position on 320 after 1 year as per the rules, resulting in a punishment NOT to be selected again as trainers on the 330 (against the rules set by the management).

3-Don't block your senior instructor on their current fleet: the 320 TREs are clear example of what will happen to you if you think of giving the company rather than taking from it, (every junior capt or f/o passed them to the 330 and now, they MIGHT get the 330 rating as MFF only i.e one or two flights max per month on 330 but the rest will be back to the grind on the 320 FOREVER)!!

4-Allow the 330 TRE/TRI to transfer to 777 ( if no 777 vacancies available now, tell them to wait till June 2009 when the 777 delivery flow will increase again) creating a place for the normal flow from 320 to 330 then you will have much less problems talking those 320 TREs into MFF 320/330.

All these negative signs need to be looked at if we need to build a solid training team and make it attractive for others to join and give the company of their experience.

[Ronaldo 330]

QR will not be short in Inst for sure .
We will bring DE TRE from UK and numbers are there .
We can let some of Inst go to Etihad .... no prob. there are DE Inst in UK who will jojn QR stay 1-2 y get A330 and masalama !

[A320 Man]

Ronaldo, that is exactly what will happen, and it is loss of money for this airline, that is why we are giving heads up for the hi managements to stop this destruction from inside.

[A320 Man]

Check this thread, it is also interesting.

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/343476-q.html

[AirbusMaster]

The first 320 instructor resigned the training already and was threatened by his DCPT that he will not be moving to another type soon but will stay on the 320 as a line captain.

Way to go !! great appreciation from your boss !

After years of hard work, the reward is: loss of seniority and punishement.

I don't think it will look graet when the 320 training comes to a halt, and QA will send the pilots for the training and/or recurrent in a foriegn TRTO.

I hope that the voice of reason will prevail after all for the sake of the company, pilots and management at the same time.

[A330 man]

Airbus Master, this resignation may be the first in recent times, but the 320 was always like that, the TREs had to fight or resign in order to move to the next type, ask NM, RH, MN, HM, AZ...over the years.

But trainers kept accepting the offer to join the 320 since eventually they left the 320 for good as trainers on the next type.
What will happen now when they know there is no more guarantee of movement as TRE to the next type?? We will just watch the next few weeks, it will be interesting.:eek:

[AirbusMaster]

Did you read between the lines in the new fleet transfer rules memo?


5- Pilots may request fleet transfer but the company will normally decline the request where is no commercial requirement exists.


Meaning: it is not your right to be transferred to another fleet, you may retire on the 320 while the company is hiring DECs to the 330/340 or 777 !


CCQ 320/330 (new joiner) is subject to a bond of 1 year from final line check or $15000


Meaning: IM and BW got the 320/330 CCQ, then any internal transfer (for the 777) is not bonded at all !! that was a clever move.

One may wonder what was the commercial need for them to get the 320/330 CCQ when the commercial need was and still to get more TREs on the 320 meanwhile hire DEC on other types? You figure it out.

I guess with the new rules the door is wide open to hire the friends from BM, XL, VC...etc. as DECs on the big types, .....of course commercial reasons !

[A320 Man]

I met a 320 trainer today, he told me that one of the good trusted guys gave him an advice to remain calm for few weeks; don't rush your resignations yet, things must improve in the training department to avoid disastrous results, just be patient.

Normally no one would buy such talk except when it comes from K.C. one of the few you can trust here if not the most trusted.

Weeks are not too long, if you are a 330 trainer: you have nothing to lose, if you are a 320 trainer: few weeks will not do much more damage, after all you worked for years in tough conditions, long days, min rest...etc.

[Xaxa]

A320 Man, that is pretty much what you always hear in QR about anything, salary increase - "just wait a few weeks and see, we are getting +30%", fleet transfers - "yes they will speed up 320 to 330/777 any time now", upgrades - "yes, yes, soon we will start with more upgrades, just wait a few months and see", and there is always a "reliable source".

Something good is bound to happen here, sooner or later. Take two, give them back one, i guess they should give back a bit to some just to make the rest complacent . :E

[Black Stain]

Great job Notanotherhilton :ok:

[A320 Man]

Xaxa, I agree on what you said, but normally when Capt. K.C. says something, we believe him.
We will see this time if nothing changes for the trainers....I guess we will see massive trainer's migration.

[A330 man]

You are right 320 man, K.C. proved to be a man of his word, he has no hidden agenda, and he doesn't crush his colleagues for his own benefit in the name of "commercial requirement". i.e. he did not transfer himself to another type then change the rules to apply to the hard working men and women of 320 for example.
All what we the trainers have to do now, is wait and see, if nothing changes,then go ahead ....everyone for himself.

[NoJoke]

A330 man you sound like a person that will understand reason, as does the Tramp I suspect. The worst person to have as a Training Captain is one that can not train. Witness the Italian. I think people like the Tramp have an idea of the truth. The training scene will change soon. :)

[A330 man]

NoJoke, Thank you for your words, I also like the comments of Tramp.
I think you know inside information, I see changes in the near future for the 320 training. We will see.

Another subject: when I.M. and B.W. arrived here we expected highly experienced people with great vision for both the company and the staff…etc.

I can't tell much about B.W. since he did not make big decisions yet (except the rumors that he will change the 5 stars crew hotels to 3 stars).

I still blame him of course for signing the new fleet transfer "unfair" rules but for now I will assume that someone sold him the idea and he signed unaware of the sequences.

As for I.M. I saw a limited vision, very slow worker and slow decision maker, low training experience (at least as an Airbus pilot) lack of charisma, selfish behavior, lack of support to his people…etc.

But my important question here is this:

For all the damage taking place in the flight ops (especially the training department) I want to know how much is their monthly salary??

Are they charging the airline the same salary like A.J.? or did the people who hired them thought maybe it is a cheaper option to get a low cost carrier mentality to QA?

I am just curious, how much is their salary?.

[goldstar]

I.m Gets 80 To 100k P/m

Thats A Lot Of Money To Come Up With D.O.D.A.R

[P.Clostermann]

My cup of tea indeed...

Both B.W. ( W.W. would be more correct) and I.M. came in through the same channel: a man called S.V. He runs an aviation consulting company out of the UK, is the private advisor to the CEO on most commercial and industrial decisions and who is the middleman between Airbus and QR (indeed, the person who takes between 1 and 3% commission on every plane sold to QR).

B.W. was chief pilot in the UK for a small company flying about 10 A319s. He is not well liked over there, both on a personal as well as professional note. He is considered un-charismatic and un-ethical and above all, he is not well liked by the UK CAA!
So far he can be counted as responsible for the following:
· The cancellation of our salary increase. This was designed by I.M. and A.A.J., approved partially by the CEO but stopped by B.W., because he claims that more than enough pilots are willing to join/the industry is slowing down/…
· The change in hotel policy as mentioned above. This is not final yet but is definitely in the pipeline!
· The super efficient rostering system that is coming our way!
So all in all a very management orientated person without much consideration for the crews, hereby confirming his reputation in the UK!

I.M. was chief pilot for a company in the UK, flying A320s. The big difference is that he is well liked in the UK, both in his previous company as well as at the UK CAA. He is a RE-TRE for the UK CAA (TRE checker) and is considered highly professional. He is more approachable compared to B.W. and more correct.
Both of them do not have very good people skills (did anybody see an introduction, presentation or explanation of who is who so far?)

And now the answer to the question we all have been waiting for.
To put it all in the correct context, first the following.
A chief pilot in this company, with a proven track record over years in the company, who knows this company and its people inside out, makes around 65000-70000QR/month and has exactly the same benefits as all of us!
Very strong but impossible to confirm rumors indicate the following:
I.M. salary: 140000QR/month with extra benefits, and paid in GBP (That’s what I call an ERP!)
B.W. salary: 180000QR/month (paid in GBP), all expenses paid ( BMW 730 IL, big villa,…)

Flight ops is a time bomb, waiting to explode any moment! That, together with what has been talked about on this forum, should assure us all a very interesting future!

[Farty Flaps]

Max,
Dodar is an analytical mental model to apply to emergency , or in fact any scenario. It is one of many but is widely used in the first world.

This chap didnt invent it. It does however signify the impending anglicisation of Qatar. Witness the road show interviews courting some 100 or so experienced widebodied crew in LHR last week all immediately available and some highly qualified. It would appear your OPC?LPC are about to get a little more UKJAR than you may be comfortable with. But then again its been admitted here that the training at QR is poor..allegedly...so its a good thing then ...isnt it? Must be a bit of a bummer ..all the trappings of jar but without the licence but heyho thats life.

[AirbusMaster]

Max,

D.O.D.A.R. is a task sharing / organizing tool just to help you in case of emergency, e.g. like QA crew use N.I.T.E.S. in case of emergency.

The latters stand for: Diagnose, Options, Decide, Assign tasks, Review your decision.

In other words : do what you do during every sim check, using your CRM skills.

It is not a new term, you will find it in the 777 manual.

It is more or less an organizing tool, although I think it is too expensive to pay QR 90.000/ month to come up with only this in almost 10 months of service with the company.

[A320 Man]

Clostermann,

It seems that you have detailed information, so I will not debate it, I will just mention the figures I heard.

B.W. QR 140.000 + BMW 700 Series + Big luxurious company villa.

I.M. QR 90.000

A.J QR 80.000 (not much more than other management pilots).

I guess that is very unfair for a man like A.J. who is hard working, approachable and most of all a legitimate son of this company and fully understand its people.

[AirbusMaster]

A320 man:
Is there any one who cares about the future of QA?

A330 Man:
I understand that some managers don't practice what they preach, but I don't understand why deny others the same privilege especially after their hard work for the airline!!

Clostermann:

Flight ops is a time bomb, waiting to explode any moment! That, together with what has been talked about on this forum, should assure us all a very interesting future!



No further comment !

[Smirnoff N21]

a brilliant move once again get a pit-bull and put him on top to make sure things are under control and a pro to improve so long stumbling training standards. The next move will be establishment of commonwealth empire within the flight OPS. Get ready boys lots of heads will roll.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[goldstar]

No, No, No.

You Have It All Wrong.

D..........do What Your Told

O..........no Options

D..........decide To.....

A..........ass-lick or....

R..........resign

[Farty Flaps]

Goldsatr,
pure genius and sums up the industry these days andnot just qatar.

brits from XL sim checking as we speak. lt/tre etc etc.

Pimms all round.

[A330 man]

brits from XL sim checking as we speak. lt/tre etc etc.

So what was said in this forum was not a rumor after all !

They will bring their friends and colleges from XL, MD and others, they promised them to give them training positions asap, that is why they are undermining the whole concept of seniority.

I feel sorry for the 320 guys ….they are stuck forever on this grinding roster, while the pims and commonwealths will join as DEC on the 330 / 777 probably as instructors within 6 months, while the working class of this airline is watching.

Well….I don't think they will keep watching for a long time, I heard that we have already many resignations from the 320 fleet, many more will leave if this cunning plan continues.

[A320 Man]

Let me ask both I.M. and B.W., was it possible in your previous airline to hire DEC jumping everyone to a bigger type without any consideration for any kind of seniority?

[P.Clostermann]

As said before, the figures I was quoting where based on strong but stubborn rumors. And as they are virtually impossible to verify I posted them with that little sidenote.

I have to say that the figures as quoted by A320man seem to be a bit more realistic!

All in all I think we can all agree that these people are making much more money than we all do and that it remains a question to see wether this is all justified or not!

If now they will indeed do a controlled and organised invasion of QR FLIGHT OPS in true commonwealth "god save the queen" tradition than we are all screwed!

The only reason why I am still here and not in EK or CX is because I wanted to steer clear of the British Imperialism in aviation!:\
MAybe EY is not such a bad option after all....Mixed German/Malaysian/Australian Hoganism management for sure still beats the Nigels and their cheese boards!

[Farty Flaps]

Let me correct myself to add " from xl amongst others as we speak".
There were roadshows last week with huge attendance .

The first sim rides from those interviews are begining. The team i believe are now in the States with more due for he uk and still many waiting to attend.

I dont think its a case of jobs for the boys just jobs for the unemployed brits there is a Huge pool of unemployed pilots with good experience about and they are only the first wave. Not just for QR but anyone else that opens their recruitment.

[Qatari515]

Hi mate,

I would say everybody with the right attitude as well as the right skills is more than welcome over here! We defenitely need as many professional pilots as we can get our hands on.

As long as everybody plays it by the rules (read respect the seniority system), just like you would do in any other major company, and hereby you dont see QR just as a cash cow or fastrack stepstone to higher goals, all will be fine!

Good luck to all of you...:ok:


Regarding I.M and B.W........dont know the details but I have to say that both of them seem to be nice and knowledgeable people. Salary issues on the side, maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt. One year would be considered a minimum. Off course this should be done under close scrutiny and a watchfull eye. QR can not be turned into an "old boys club"

[A320 Man]

QR515, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt but they are destroying the seniority list, ignoring the need of their staff and punishing the hard working. There is no doubt any more, their fleet transfer decision is affecting many pilots.

As you said, new pilots are more than welcome, but please don't jump the 320 experienced pilots and hire DECs Non Type Rated on the big types while they are watching.

I know many pilots on the 320 with more than 10,000 hours on heavy jets, including pic time on A300, 767, L 1011 why they are not transferred on the 330 and 777?

As for the 330 TREs, I wonder why the company wants to save money by not compensating their financial loss when they fly the 320, while willing to pay expensive full Type Rating for new joiners?

[Ronaldo 330]

If there is no movment from A320 to A330 there will be more resignations . Which one will save more money ??

[A330 man]

The problem with QA is stubbornness, which leads to spending in the wrong direction.
Examples:
1- Pay full type rating for a new joiner, but deny the "loyal" company pilots a CCQ course to a bigger type.
2- Reduce the crew hotels category to 3 stars (most probably with least facilities) yet the crew has to be fresh, well rested with shiny looking uniform.
3- Threaten to train abinition pilots (even from the cabin crew) in many resignations occurs, but not to increase the salaries.
4- Spend too much on the high turn over number of pilots, but no provident fund and other seniority privileges!
5- Many other trifles as throwing away some catering items while the crew is not allowed to consume it…..forcing some pilots to pay extra QR 2000 to stay in a company accommodation…etc.

Why our management wants QA to give the same product of some neighboring airlines without offering the same benefits?

[oryxbollocks]

I've been out of this for a while so I have to ask the question, "515, have you gone over to the Dark Side?".

Just what have IM and WW done since arriving that is positive? Maybe I missed something again?

Convincing the CEO to stop the pay rise may be seen as a smart commercial move, but why not let the schooling increase go through, for example? Removing the bonds is good for some but what if you started your training on the 31st of August?

Why are we still training cadets on the 330 and to a syllabus designed for conversion not abinitio?

Please correct me or show me what you consider to be the good things these two 'good old boys' have done?

"Flight ops is a time bomb, waiting to explode any moment! That, together with what has been talked about on this forum, should assure us all a very interesting future!" PC: You of all people should remember the Chinese curse..........'may you live in interesting times' and that is surely where we are headed.


GB

[The Tramp]

I.M. might have been popular with his previous Company, but not with the employees. A pompous ass with no personality; He alone has been reponsible for major FUs since his arrival. The guy was only a trucky in the RAF, no big shakes (or was it a TankerW**ker). He will of course bring in his ex-RAF cronies and the like to bolster his weak position. He has already disposed of some Training Captains because he didn't like thier attitude (read into that they were a threat because they could see the truth)

He will be here until he retires (or is fired) so get used to him. He will continue promote people like S.D. because they use the same heavy handed techniques to control people (attempt); for example a Training Captain resigns and is threatened with a life of hell unless he rescinds his notice. The life of hell by the way, was demotion to be being a normal line Captain on the A320..... (Training Captain now on the way to another fleet soon)

Not a lot we can do here but expose these people and get on with our MCT layovers etc.

[The Tramp]

The expression is D.I.L.D.O. not D.O.D.A.R. :p

[AirbusMaster]

Many 320 trainers will follow this resigning training captain soon.

They are waiting for few weeks because of a promise to move their TREs soon to the next fleet.

Also Many 330 trainers are waiting for the removal of IM from his post, since the latest news indicates that he has failed his last medical check (heart problem).

I personally wish him to get well soon with a speedy recovery, in spite of the disagreement with him technically, but there is nothing personal.

[A320 Man]

Ronaldo (post 56) wrote:
If there is no movement from A320 to A330 there will be more resignations. Which one will save more money??

A330 man also (post 57) had good points.

Allow me to add 1 point, if the TREs are held against their will on the 320 they would resign the training to move to other types (one already did) the financial result is to send the trainees to a foreign TRTO to conduct the company training and perform the LPC/OPC to keep our pilots flying and avoid grounding planes.

What is cheaper?

Flt Ops management…. Please wake up and realize that the pilots interest goes along with the company interest, we all in one boat, please don't rock it too hard, otherwise we will jump and swim to another boat in the big ocean.

When world pilots see people jumping off a ship I don't think it will look attractive for others to jump on.

Live and let live is much more worthy than live and let die policy.

[Qatari515]

Oryxbollocks,


dont worry mate...so far I am still far away from the dark side!

Which is why I asked for the benefit of the doubt under certain conditions! So far, I have to agree with you, not much good has come out of the illustreous duo, but only time can/will tell!

Something had to be done in flight ops for a long time as it is a mess, with only 1 fleet working more or less descently. Lets see if this was the right change!

We should all stay very allert! What is very certain is that it will get much worse before it gets any better. First proof to that...OCT rosters!

[wee one]

A320 man et al,

Dont get too complacent with the we'll go elsewhere atitude.There are now queues to get in all the major Middle and far eeastern carriers consistently full of brits and yanks amongst others.
The places to go are getting less.Economies are suffering. Pretty soon you may be glad to get stuck on a 320 in an oil rich company.
An example (not me)
Senior captain rated as capt on all the major jets including 777 and 330.
Tri/Tre/re -tre all on a licence thats travels and converts with the minimum of fuss.
Good provenance, outstanding contacts and references.Hrs well above all minimums, looking for a good home. Currently looking due to to loss of job. Camels or noodles equally accepted.Left or right seat.
If you can compete with that sort of quals , swim away.The ocean is surely big but not many places to beach up on.
I think the world job market is changing and petulant moves may not be the best tactic.
Good luck

[A330 man]

Wee one,
I don't think that your friend of a TRE/TRI experience should have any problem finding a job all over the world, simply let him check these sites below.

54 current opportunities available in varied types from Rishworth Aviation.
http://www.rishworthaviation.com/opportunities/oppslist.asp?cat=1 (http://www.rishworthaviation.com/opportunities/oppslist.asp?cat=1)


More from Parc Aviation
http://www.parcaviation.aero/aviation/FlightcrewJobs.asp (http://www.parcaviation.aero/aviation/FlightcrewJobs.asp)

Try also, Air Asia, Air Arabia, Al Jazeera, NAS Air and Bahrain air.

Jobs are everywhere for the time being, ask our flt ops manager about the latest numbers of resignations, you will see how many are leaving, I understand it is a personal choice, but let us try to cut that unnecessary cost of re-training replacement pilots ALL the time

Just a point of clarification; I don't think anyone have a problem with Brits or any nationality in particular, it is the sorry fact of blocking some pilots off certain company types while hiring the DEC (non type rated) on these types.

As for the 320 man, I guess many of us see it his way.

[AirbusMaster]

wee one, you surly speak like one of the management, are you sure that your initials are not B.W.?

Sorry but you sound like you are promoting the idea of the new management team, : keep quiet...be thankful that you have a job, let us get CCQ for ourselves and our friends too who did not join QA "yet" !

[A320 Man]

Dear Wee One,

Thank you for your advice, I would like to ask: will you be happy if you are working for 5 years, then they pass you to hire DECs over your shoulder? (Based on sudden change of rules by a new management team).

Allow me to clarify these points:

1- I have many friends and colleges from the UK, they all have my respect, (so when you say many places are full of Brits, it doesn't really matter to me)

2- Whatever the nationality of my manager, it is not an issue, the issue is: Do I feel that his/her decisions are fair to both parties (company/employee) or do many pilots feel these decisions are designed to serve a certain agenda? E.g. hiring certain individuals with better privileges over the long serving 320 captains.

3- Let me use your TRE/TRI and RE-TRE example: I think he is from the UK (the term RE-TRE is a UKCAA), will he accept to join the 320 fleet for 4 or 5 years while others are hired as DEC on the 330/777 without type rating? (I can tell you that we have many like him on the 320 and 300 fleet.

4- The reason of writing here is not wining or threatening, but to attract the higher management attention for a public opinion situation, warning of possibility of a chaos in the Flt. Ops. And saving a lot of money by reducing the high turnover numbers.

5- Don't you think it would be more fair, if the decision to change the fleet transfer rules was written this way:
[ Fleet transfers from the 320 to the wide body types will require a min. Total time of xxxx hours, including PIC time on heavy jet not less than yyyy hrs, preferences will be given to pilots with previous wide body rating. Pilots should have a clean record with QA]
I am not a manager, but I guess if the management team would sit together and make this kind of formula, we would not have such a high no. of pilots opposing.


Just read the other pilots point of view, you will notice it is not only me.
I saw many pilots complaining about the latest fleet transfer plans, I understand their concern.

I will be happy to stay on the 320 forever in these cases:
A- If my airline stops expanding.
B- If I receive the same income/roster duty as per the 330/340.
C- If the company doesn’t hire 320 pilots directly to the 330 while denying me the same right.



Regards.

[Mr Ho]

I told 330 in Aprel becose I dont complane :8

[shneidertrophy]

Is this it?

Did they finally manage to degrade QR 100% to the second league in the Middle East, after EK/EY/GF/...

Morale is at an all time low in all levels of employees

Management very busy deploying an auto-destruction program

More pilots/cabin crew leaving than joining

Traffic loads are down at their lowest level since a long time

Skytrax ratings ( for what they are worth) are down



I dont know about you guys, but I am getting a bit fed up with the feeling that I am working for the gulf's dumpster-airline!
Last night I met up with some EY friends, and I felt like they where almost feeling sorry for me, the poor QR pilot!

Bad news is that EK does not want us and at EY the DEC hiring has been stopped for now. I am afraid pretty soon QR's reputation is going to catch up with all of us, leaving us no descent option where to go..


How is it possible it ever came this far???? An airline with all the potential in the world. And yet a start up airline such as EY, remember they only started up end 2003, managed with an eary ease to catch up and jump over us!

And now all the dark clouds hanging over flight ops....makes me almost depressed!:{:ugh:

[Rocco Stiffreddy]

That's pretty bad... Does anyone have anything good to say about QA? Is Qatar really the asshole of the Middle East?

[Qatari515]

Emotions are running high at the moment and many people are, rightfully, very disappointed with what is going on. But I would not go exactly as far as for example schneidertrophy...

Things are far from perfect overhere, but I still think that besides EK who are playing in a league of their own, all other carriers are pretty much the same!

They work you hard, brake promisses and change policies more often than you hopefully change your underwear, but after all it is just a job!

The money will be in the account exactly when it should be and you will get a proper type rating and very good worldwide experience if you need that!

Regarding which company to join, that is a personal choice I would say, mostly dictated by the type of lifestyle you are looking for.

All I can say is "do your research and than do it once more". A middle eastern airline is a far cry away from the company you are probably used to, and this on ALL levels. The same goes for the private life you copuld expect here.
And networks should be part of that research but take it with a pinch of salt. Many people here will only speak up when unhappy, the happy ones are sitting by the pool getting pissed.

People come and people go. I have seen many people leave over the last few years but on the other hand, there still are quiet a few western expats here who have been here for a loooong time and who have no plans to leave!

Good luck!

[Black Stain]

Your efforts here 515 will amount naught. You cannot stop whats coming :)

[AirbusMaster]

Indeed it's the first time we see many pilots agree on one thing: morals are very low within a vast majority of pilots over the latest Flt Ops decisions.


(http://www.pprune.org/members/192884-shneidertrophy)shneidertrophy (http://www.pprune.org/members/192884-shneidertrophy) :
Morale is at an all time low
(http://www.pprune.org/members/192884-shneidertrophy)


(http://www.pprune.org/members/65324-qatari515)Qatari515 (http://www.pprune.org/members/65324-qatari515):
Emotions are running high at the moment and many people are, rightfully, very disappointed with what is going on.
(http://www.pprune.org/members/65324-qatari515)



(http://www.pprune.org/members/120319-a320-man)A320 Man (http://www.pprune.org/members/120319-a320-man):
many pilots complaining about the latest fleet transfer plans.
(http://www.pprune.org/members/120319-a320-man)

[Qatari515]

What efforts?:}


Dont even want to try to stop what is coming, as it is inevitable. Just want to keep it a fair game till the end, this can only contribute to the finesse of the end result, if you know what I am saying!

Exagerations and lies will not help us a to get an inch further....

[tcas II]

Don't worry there are a lot of arab cap eager to be LI TRI or TRE, they will never leave QR, it a heaven for them compare to their own country.

[FO330]

HI,
From my point of view i see that Qatar,Doha is not a bad place to stay,but everyone have to understand that Doha is a family oriented place,very safe...
plus everybody should know that it is still a new city trying to catch up,but at the end its OK to stay in...for sure there are some things that the city is missing,,but it should be known thing before joining the company.

[loc22550]

Quote:
"more pilots/cabin crew leaving than joining.."
Well this might be the reason why we are flying more and more, and our roster is getting bad to worse every month..!?..Saving cost well maybe but it's not the only reason...
Otherwise i don't think it's in the benefit of the company to make the life of the crew more miserable...!Probably they don't have that much option available!

[A320 Man]

It is Eid holidays; it will be quiet in the flt ops for few days. Let me ask if any 330 instructor got 320 CCQ training during October?

This will indicate if the MFF is really happening or is it just a mirage.

[A330 man]

Yes 320 man, I can tell you that (4) 330 TREs are rostered for their 320 CCQ during October.

I think it means the wheel is turning, let us see if any 320 to 330 movement will happen during November?

[AirbusMaster]

Indeed, four 330 TREs are planned for CCQ 320 this month, but beware, they will be only SFEs!! so they will do the 320 sim sessions.

In other words: 320 TREs congratulations: you became 320 Line instructors with TRE salary (enjoy the double rotations) :(

[A330 man]

Ronaldo 330 said:

Who is manipulation system ?? Rostering with rules like climatazed and unclimatazed in India , new bond system its ok for new but bad for seniors , B.W and I.M can jump DEC to A330 but want to stop transferes as it cost money , CEO who press his own capt top brake the rules of part A by forcing crew to fly with knife in cabin , terminations without valid reasons , you have to report fit by 20 h for next day as if you are Dr , senior Capt cant get villa becaouse CEO told him to add money but new Capt gets it , people get failed on intervew for not knowing why the sky is blue , that ACN has more restriction then Alcatraz


Ronaldo, well said, I hope someone is listening to sound of reason.

[A320 Man]

The rumors turned to be facts.
As previously posted here "from many pilots" I.M. called his new joining 767 captains to be instructors on 777 before they even got released on type!

[AirbusMaster]

320 man, these were not rumors, it was inside information! (refer to the posts in page 1 and 2 of this thread).

What you don't know is they failed the trainers selection interview!!
I.M. wanted to push them in, but the rest of the board refused!!!

Many 330 trainers are angry since they asked to be transferred to the 777 as trainers, they were told: Sorry, no vacancy!! Yet there are vacancies for those pilots who joined QR only few weeks ago :ugh:

I guess it was reserved for them!

Wait for the new German Chief Pilot Training J, he is better, and expected to be fair to his trainers.

[NoJoke]

Please tell me he is going, and when. I will wave him goodbye with two fingers. :D

[shneidertrophy]

So ze germans are coming?

Wll, in any case it cant get worse than what we are seeing now!

To add to Ronaldo 330's list:

After having fooled the senior FOs for over a year, by saying that upgrades can and will only be done on A320 from now on, plans are being made AGAIN to restart right to left seat transfers on A330 and B777!!!!!!

Not only would this be a slap in the face of the senior FOs, many of who have more experience on A330 than most of the captains on that fleet,but who where forced on A320....This will be a slap in the face for all guys on the A320 aspiring a transfer to a widebody in order to escape the grueling and dangerous roster patterns of A320!

Flight ops has never been in a deeper crisis than the one we are seeing now! And especially the A320 fleet is reaching a critical stage!

P. Mc N. is screwing everybody over left/right/center with is monstreous roster patterns, abusing the acclimatised defenition and pushing especially 320 crews to the absolute extremities of safety!
Hereby he fires his most capable rostering personnel (R.P), promotes the brown nosed no-goods such as the infamous Mhd and in the same move he ***** up the whole QR OCT roster in the most severe way possible to such an extend, that RP was called in again to fix the damage on A330!

I.M. is taking care of his personal agenda, hereby forgetting ALL other pending issues on all fleets!

This ship is at Vmo/Mmo at the moment heading for Mount everest but nobody hears the "whoop whoop pull up!" alert!


AYUTO!

[NoJoke]

Yes, ask some of the DECs some basic memory items. "Terrain Terrain" I didn't even see the tracks I heard them say. :ugh:

[loc22550]

Regarding the safety issue on the 320 roster, i have only one word, continue to fill up ASR report for fatigue(or even more safe,report unfit for flight), it's indeed a SERIOUS SAFETY ISSUE:ugh:, after receiving a lot of those ASR, they WILL HAVE to do something, and hopefully they will not wait till a serious incident happens!!

QCAA is watching...

[Ronaldo 330]

A320 Mr. Mhd manage to make Capt fly to CMB a day after he fail on LPC/OPC he he seams to me A320 rostering guy has more power then CT or CP when he can make people fly not legal .
A320 roster will soon be subject on meeting at Q CAA.
Mr Mhd is promoted to somthing in that funny department .
Mr R.P i saw him he is now working in safety i guess .
Who can handle A330 except R.P ? Savio or Vina or Jesh ? Savio eat too much curry and Jesh cant find his way walking in Tech and Vina work just becaouse she like instant caffe in Technical . lol lol
P.Mc. N and Khartoom beauty cant see TERRAIn is ahead as they are dispatched under MEL ( GPWS inop ) taken from Chris C. hot brother who take off with security from Tech building .
maybe one day we see major changes in that department .

[A330 man]

Ronaldo,

I agree the 320 roster is a disaster, but when R.P. was handling it was not so good either, well….it depends always on your "gifts" to him….. most of us knew which Alcohol brand he preferred, and the more bottles he received, the better roster you got.
He managed to please every Chief Pilot and his deputy, so he was always on the safe side. I cannot deny that he knew his job very well, but be careful if he did not like you for one reason or the other, then you are blacklisted, he made many pilots resign over roster life style (all was legal)!

Nowadays, we see DCPT leaving all the work for the 320 Roster man Mhd or others, no follow up, that is why we saw a pilot fly after he failed his LPC check!! The TRE informed his DCPT and QCAA, but no action was taken to ground him.

Regarding the fatigue factor, I think we are very close to seeing an incident or –God forbid- accident on the 320 fleet, which is just a "normal" result for operating such a roster for a extended period of time.

We had this level of danger on the 330 fleet when we were short, remember arriving from BKK in the morning then departing to LHR on the same night??
ASRs are important to protect ourselves and the poor passengers who are not aware of what might be coming in the future.

[Mr Ho]

FO wit palsy cose me fail LPC, but DCPT he know i good so let me pass to fly safe. safety safety evry day captain Ho! Best man cheif pilot is Captain Shout. His friend jordan wit no hair also very strong, captain Cross i call him. Thes men make Goat Airway graet management :8

[Ronaldo 330]

A320 during R.P time was not as bad as now it was never so bad .
R.P is only guy who knows his staff and have been called back. I saw when Sudan beauty asked R.P to explane her things from part A becaouse she didnt know why someone can and someone cant fly to KTM that was 2 y back and today she is mananger .
Mr Mhd is doing act of crime with A320 roster .
Cp and CT A330 are happy with R.P and A330 pilots can request flights and days off while A320 small fleet cant .

[Mr Ho]

But why A320 GPWS say "Train Train" NoJoke?? In Tu154 GPWS say "Woks Woks"?? :8

[FlyingCroc]

Is this a professional pilots forum or a place for constant spam from types like Mister Ho? :confused:

[AirbusMaster]

You are right, that MR HO is known as the clown of every forum, I believe he likes to receive insults, I guess he was once a pilot but couldn't score the rquired ICAO level 4 in English language.

The Amazing thing that he was attacking fellow pilots in this very same forum (refer to pages 1 and 3) although no one could understand what he wants to say :yuk:

I expect him to attack me later with threats of this kind " Big Cheif knows you and doesn't like you ...etc" that will make us all get a laugh here.

[A320 Man]

FlyingCroc and AirbusMaster, don't let this child called HO deviate us off the track of this forum,

I made a mistake once, I actually replied to him on page one with strong words, but I got good words from EGGW and Qatari 515, since then everyone is ignoring him.

EGGW wrote:
Please remember, that people post things and say things to elicit a certain reaction.

Qatari515 Wrote:
dont allow this imposter to get on your nerves man!

Honestly, thats all what he wants to do. In the beginning I found his fake chinese-english funny and entertaining, but by now he has degraded himself to the likes of CEO PITA (remember him?)

Look at him as the clown of this forum, the guy providing the funny note. But do not take him seriously please.

[Mr Ho]

I is graet pilot, i is typical pilot Goat Airway, is my right to wite here, yu is recist and rood. How much fan male you get? many fan for me! I know fack Graet King Katamite make cells reedy for you next spy Haywood. Frying Croc better were disgize at doha walk round next time :8

Yu fool assume to many. assume mak ASS out of U and ME :8

[4HolerPoler]

Mr Ho has left the building. Permanently.

Please carry on guys.

4HP

[A330 man]

Back to the subject of this forum, Any news from the 320 trainers?

I know two 330 TREs started their 320 CCQ already.

I hope this will stop the departure of the 320 trainers.

[loc22550]

Not only the trainers..:
Any news about DEC A-320 or massive upgrade....To release the"regular" 320 cpt flying 90+hours/month actually on a tidy&dangerous&tiring roster patern, and before any serious incident happens...?:confused:

[A320 Man]

Checking the website of QA, no DEC job offers rather than 777.

320 pilots have to be patient, since there are not enough instructors anyway!

I hope no unfortunate mishaps with this kind of tiring 320 roster.

[Crusty Ol Cap'n]

So 4Holer lacks a sense of humour!:(

[EGGW]

No, Mr Ho had been warned about his irratating behaviour before. Just kept doing the same, so adios!

EGGW

[FlyingCroc]

Thanks 4Holer, it was not funny anymore, just crap and spamming of the forum.

[Rocco Stiffreddy]

I thought Ho was a laugh. Perhaps a little Juvenile. I think some of you take your jobs too seriously. You've got to keep a sense of humour guys!

[Mike Tuck]

Got to agree with Rocco. We should let the Ho down begin again. Give him one more chance on the understanding he self-moderates. I think some people saw a lot of truth in his tortured English.

[A320 Man]

Don't let this impolite imposter "HO" steer the discussion off its original track. Just ignore him or add him to the ignore list like I did.

[Two Dogs....]

You may be banned Ho, but it could be worse, at least you are not in that cell next to Heywood. All pilots are born stupid, what to but laugh :ok:

[Black Stain]

Ho was the irritating village fool, very true. But clearly his character was complete fiction. Heartfelt offense of fiction is the apex of idiocy.
............................................................ ........................................

Eager pilots yakking away on this forum about how terrible it is and how wonderful it would be if only management did this or that are like an old womens sewing circle :ugh:

Goat Airways employs the 1159 Management Policy. The Catamite King knows exactly what is necessary, but will wait till the 11th hour and 59th minute to act. Instead of chattering like old women, kick the Goat in the nuts without mercy. History has proved that for some reason the clock then runs much faster?

[Two Dogs....]

My Mrs passes her time more quickly by busting my balls :ok:

[widebody300er]

Did a interview in London on Oct 8th, anybody received a phone call? here's waiting.

[A330 man]

Don't worry, if you are holding a UK passport you are in, just a matter of time, things are too slow here, but the reward is: you will jump all the 320 captains already flyin in QA for years and fly Wide Body type DEC, even if you are a 320 rated pilot!
Worth waiting :ok:

[widebody300er]

A330 Thank you for the info. I hold a 767 type rating and a vaid Canadian passport with 5000 hrs. do I still have a chance?? Interview was very quick.

[P.Clostermann]

767 rating and 5000hrs.....MY GOD!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have found the next Chief Pilot 777!

Welcome on board mate, hope you are bringing your flack jacket, as you will be jumping over the heads of many of our pilots who have been here for a couple of years but who find themselves stuck on the Tuk-Tuk!

Good for you, bad for them, stupid from the company!

[loc22550]

Or maybe our next GMFO...:uhoh:

Heard A.J is leaving soon...Any volunteer to take his seat..?:hmm:
Loc.

[widebody300er]

How long does it take for them to contact you after the interview?

[A330 man]

In general, things are running slow here, but QA needs 777 type rated pilots ASAP some extra qualifications will help...like TRI/TRE ...etc..., next priority is given to Boeing rated pilots...e.g. 767 / 757 / 737 NG.

As sad as it may sound, in all previous cases you will get priority over the senior company pilots who are stuck on 320 for example (even if they had previous experience on 767 or 737) don't ask me why ! The answer is in the mind of our Flight Ops managers.

The final answer for you is be patient you will be selected to fly 777.

[P.Clostermann]

Guys,

maybe we should be a bit more considerate in the future.

Who says this person is applying as a DEC?

And we do need all the good FOs we can get our hands on, dont we? In that case he still would jump over the heads of the A320 FOS, but thats not such a big problem as at least the A320 FOs at the moment are moving to the trouble-7!

To all good pilots out there intrested in the right seat...you are MOST welcome!

[widebody300er]

Hey Guys thank you for all your info.. getting bored sitting around. was part of the Zoom Airlines fall!! Anyways my interview was very quick!! like 10 min.. rest of the guys 15-25 min interviews. don't know if this is bad are good!!!

[A330 man]

You are right, I assumed he is a captain, and you are right we need all the good F/Os plus all the good captains we can get.

In the case of 320 F/Os most of them are young and with minimum jet time, previously flying the RJ 200 family...etc, so it is OK for them to gain some experience before moving to the bigger types, and they were never blocked from moving forward once they gained the experience.

My comment was about experienced captains who previously flew DC-10 or 767 but when they applied as non type rated they were selected for the 320 and with the new transfer rules...they will be stuck on the 320 for a while.

Do you remember the TRE who was denied the 777 after 6 years on the 320?? Because he had no previous wide body time!
Yes exactly, he was the only Capt. to move to the 777 -so far- He was transferred only after he decided to leave the company.

My question is ... how many captains we have on the 320 who flew wide body types and still stuck on the 320?
I think it is unfair from QA to privilege the new joiners over the long serving personnel.

In all the major airlines, seniority means benefits, but not here.

[zagno83]

....quick question for You guys don't mean to hijack the thread....but why applicants don't have to take a medical during the interview?? i guess they go thru that after the job offer....what kind of medical regs they follow, are they really tough.....what happens if you're not up to standards???
Just curious.
Thanx and good luck to e-body...

[widebody300er]

Hey guys I applied for the F/O spot I don't have 6000 hrs! My interview was very short not sure what that means? Anyways you guys are right I should start on the 320.... different way of doing things... good way for the company to piss people off!! hope to see you in Doha... no emails yet.
Was told sim would be end of Oct start of Nov.. hope I hear soon!!

[A320 Man]

Snam,

Indeed the 737 or 767 transition is cheaper than a full transition course, but also the 320/330 or 340 CCQ is cheaper than hiring a 737 DEC to the 330 !

Also it would be cheaper if IM and BW served on the 320 as they were current on the 320 (fleet that is short of instructors) it would be cheaper and more productive for QA if they served on the 320 for a while before they get their CCQ 330 as soon as they joined.

Of course I don't mind if they did that, what I really mind is the use of the "cheaper" excuse just to hold a group of people flying a hard roster for a long period of time while others just jump to the safe haven of the nice destinations and better life style.

[P.Clostermann]

And dont forget following aspects as well:

Financially: A DEC A330/777 makes about 5000QR/month more compared to aCapt A320 with 2 years seniority

Management back up: A330 is protected by S.S.S, who actually understands English and will help his pilots whenever he can ( Same goes for H.M.). The A320 on the other hand is a whole different story!

Lifestyle: Inexistant on A320



So why do A320 pilots have to be stuck in that mudhole for three years, if not more, while others get litterally all the benefits?


Something else came up recently: they are thinking again about Right to left seat upgrades on A330 and B777....this means they want to isolate all the seperate fleets in order to limit the number of fleet transfers!
So guys on A320 will be stuck FOREVER!

The dreamteam is killing this company slowly but surely!

And in the meanwhile companies like EY are steaming ahead strongly...EY announced 2 million pax for the summer season, QR loadfactors are down by 26% compared to last year!

Pilots go there continously and what does our management do?

They block the EY-QR interline agreement! Great move! That is going to solve the problem boys!:}
Rumour has it that now GF is getting better, we will loose GF agreements as well....

STUPIDITY RULES!

[A320 Man]

Clostermann is absolutely correct, as you said "The Dream Team" is killing QA slowly, I am afraid that we will suffer in the next few months and years to come (for those who are staying).

In the past I heard this: we don't care about quality pilots resigning, we will hire anyone to be a pilots and the company will never be short of pilots

well…maybe that is why we are seducing the new joiners by training them directly on the wide body….but this is a short sighted plan, because sooner or later they will leave you for another airline while 320 fleet pilots will be flying somewhere else.

If conditions don't improve for that type you will not find pilots to join on the 320 fleet (and stay).

Recommendation:
Let the flow go from the 320 to the bigger types.

Benefits:
1-Pilots will stay longer in the company knowing they will be transferred.
2-QA will reduce the risk of hiring the "Type Rating Hunters" who just join to get qualified on someone else's expense before they jump ship.
3- Wide body/Long range pilots will be company oriented and loyal after serving few years on a smaller type.

I think that will be much better policy than cancelling the interline agreement on Etihad !

[AirbusMaster]

No way guys!!! QA cancelled the ID 90 agreement with Etihad over the migration of QA pilots to EY?

I was trying to book a ZED ticked from DOH on EY, the name Etihad was removed from the choice of airlines, but I thought it might be system glitch or so till I read this information on Clostermann's comment.

If QA management is thinking this way….we should be worried.

Did they ask at any moment why pilots leave? What can we do to stop it? And furthermore why NO pilots from EY resign to join QA?

This situation reminds me of a joke I heard long time ago:
a man who wanted to tease his wife and deny her any pleasure, he decided to cut his own pines!!

[P.Clostermann]

If you ask QR HR about this, they will tell you it was EY which cancelled the agreement ....YEAH RIGHT!

If you ask further, they will dig up a story whereby there is an issue in paying the costs between QR and EY so QR revenue dept cancelled the deal!


But if you go to the source, both EY and QR will confirm it has to do with the continous stream of employees going to EY!
I called a friend of mine in EY mngmnt, he confirmed the story with as a side note the fact that QR, once more, is making a total fool of itself by doing this!

STUPIDITY RULES FOR SURE!

[fly-half]

widebody300er, I met you on the 8th and chatted to you a fair bit. I also had a short interview like you and was worried so totally surprised I received and invite to Doha for next week. I have heard of a few other former XL Airways guys who have also been invited but then a whole bunch of others who haven't heard. It's on the B777 sim. Fingers crossed for me and also for you mate that you'll still get invited.

[Two Dogs....]

STUPITY RULES?

Yeah sort of true. More like Immaturity Rules. Goat Airways is a juvenile airline with a nuffy CEO. EY is so young and in spite of past turbulence seems to have a mature management team poised to grab the future. Why would a discerning professional (i.e. disposable Goat commodity) continue riding The Stupid Goat? From year to year nothing changes but the Ramadan Tent carpets, and that's just to maintain national prestige appearance. Wankers!

Just do it.....

[A330 man]

fly-half (http://www.pprune.org/members/47616-fly-half) wrote:

I have heard of a few other former XL Airways guys who have also been invited but then a whole bunch of others who haven't heard. It's on the B777 sim. Fingers crossed for me and also for you mate that you'll still get invited.


So the rumors are confirmed again, IM is inviting his friends from the bankrupt XL Airways as DEC on the 777. IM had a list of 70 or so names he selected them personally.
XL guys, if you were a friend of IM you will join QA, if you had an issue with him back home…forget about QA.

[vivace]

A320Man, your ideas of QR worrying about losing A320 guys if they recruit widebody guys from outside works for most other airlines,but the majority of the QR workforce will not leave,they will complain sure, but will not leave. Most have not the license or passport go elsewhere, just look at the history...guys have always complained,moaned etc but in the end who actually leaves...a very small number,usually the ones more qualified with the right passports and licenses. QR know this, and know that by just doing what they want, the amount who leave is negligible.Its better for them to attract newcomers onto 777, get the numbers up,compred to the the upset guys waiting their turn,they know they wont leave anyway.Overall, pilot numbers increase. Its always worked like that,and in the current pilot shortage looming, they have an even larger supply.

[A320 Man]

So I wonder why QA was upset to the limit of cancelling the interline agreemnet with EY over the large number of pilot leaving QA to EY?

[fly-half]

Who is IM?

[widebody300er]

Hi Fly-Half,
Good luck hope it all works out for you!! not much happing here in Canada. no email yet..maybe it ill come.. hope to see you in Doha for coffee.

Cheers
widebody

[3REDS]

Who is IM:ugh:

[tuan74]

A british dude from a charter company who struck gold in QA....:ugh:

[A320 Man]

Tuan74,
Do you know why most of us are pissed off the charter guys who struck gold?? Because they want to have all the gold for themselves, meanwhile throwing dirt over us!!

We don't mind if they get gold...or BMW series 7...etc, but we mind eating dirt meanwhile.

[tuan74]

That's the sickness of this goat airline....they'll never learned really... all this new management guys come and go just to get their 'gold' and screw everybody else... hey by the way...for them why should they care about other people....????? As long as they gets what they want...:rolleyes:

As in QA..the more senior you are the more you'll get screwed anyway...that's the game plan here.....:}:}:}

[vento0]

hi guys, we had a QR interview these days in rome and many AZ pilots worried for their future attended... i tried to figure out how is life in QR from the posts but i got a bit confused? i have a couple of questions and some of you may ask:

what are the differences between the fleets?
is rostering that different between A320/330 and 777?
upgrades or fleet change are so difficult?
is the paycheck so different if you fly long or short haul?

many thanks

[shneidertrophy]

Vento0


I think we have about 4 Italian pilots here. One of them in management. So you guys stand a chance, thats for sure.

The question is: will you survive here? The lifestyle is very very different than the one you are used to, and so is the company culture!

Do not expect any respect because you are a pilot, no privileges, nothing!

Oh, and no more Armani uniforms and RayBan sunglasses!

But hey, as far as I am concerned, if you can fly an airplane and you have good knowledge and airmanship, please come over! We need any good pilot we can find!

Change of subject:


Unofficial poll


It seems like our leaders are trying to create a company without any fleetransfers possible. And most probably the A320 will be turned into a low cost arm eventually.


Q: What percentage of A320 pilots will stay here/come here in case this theory of mine is true?

[vento0]

thanks for the quick answer...

well things are changing fast in italy as well, not in europe so far, but the newco that will come out from the merge of az and airone will be pretty much a low cost carrier, for size and contracts,with no way to survive the market... my opinion of course.

i do realize that climate, costumes and way of life are different down there and i tried to guess how it could be my family and me moving..:confused:. i guess i am going to leave dog behind!!.. many years ago, when i was in the armed forces i stayed in the gulf for a while, but it is probably not the same place anymore...if called for the sim ride i will see myself

and believe me no more armani and ray-ban in here, privileges are gone, and careers frozen, so, after too many years on the "minibus" i thought it was time to change and aspire for the long-haul birds...

basically you dismantled my dreams :)... just joking!!
thanks again for the advice... ciao

p.s. to answer your poll... not many people here talks about the application sent.. i guess in rome we were around 150 200 pilots ranging from old 777 and 767 cpts to A320 and MD80 cpts and a lot of FOs with about 9yrs seniority from all the fleets ( boeing airbus + MD11)... around 860 will be dropped by newco some of them will wait for re-employment but others will be around... honestly we do not know the rules that will be used: seniority, juniority, type rating... all of the above???

sorry... not to much help...

[P.Clostermann]

Hi vento0


Its very easy .... If you need a job and you want a change of life, by all means come here! The money will be in the bank, you are not too far away from home etc...

Come over, have a look. If you like it stay! If you dont like it, go!

You will have survived one more year, you will have kept your licence current and probably you will have gained some experience!

There is a rather large italian comunity in Doha (inclusive an absolute nutcase of an ambassador) so your family can be happy.

The company...well...just read the posts here! Survivable but not ideal as a long term option!

The fleet: If you have Boeing experience, they will hire you on the B777. If not chances are 50/50 between 320 and 330.
If after the interview they offer you 320 and you want 330, just tell them! Let them know you are aware of the crazy rules in here. They are so desperately looking for pilots they will offer you the job anyway.

Do us all a favor, let us know what they offered and what you did afterwards! Id like to know if its all true.

Good luck mate.


As an alternative: Try EY, EK and GF as well

[vento0]

wilco....:ok:...

i beg your pardon for my english ..what is the explanation for the word "nutcase"?

[ForzaLazio]

pazzo scatenato!

[loc22550]

Shneidertrphy:
No need to leave immediatly...if we start to fill up ASR, and report unfit to fly due to fatigue(and it's definetly our right and responsability to do it!),believe me it will not take that long before they realize that they have to do something with the roster, other than flooding us with B.S. ACN telling us that roster will improve..!!:ugh::ugh:
Don't forget QCAA is aware of this and is watching.....

[AirbusMaster]

I think we are starting the time of "good pilots" refusing to join QA simply because it is turning to low cost flight operations.
E.g. Unpaid duty time, unpaid DH, removing the days off allowance (if that is true), uniform every 18 months instead of yearly, 3 stars hotels instead of 4 or 5 stars, strict extra fuel policy.

Do you remember the promise for a better roster starting Sep 2008? Better life style…etc.?
Well thank you very much Mr. P.M please let us have the old roster system, at least the 330 crew didn't have to get back DH (unpaid), and the 320 didn't have to fly 3 sectors before a short night stop in India, followed by another 3 sectors on the way back!

That is why any new joiner (who is able to work somewhere else) will think twice before joining QA, or may use it as a transition airlines, which will just keep this airline's flight ops stand still, just trying to catch up by replacing the resigning numbers (another high cost)

Question: are we creating an airline for pilots who have no where else to go to? Or for pilots who is transiting between jobs?

[JungleJett]

both......

[tinki winki]

What new system ??? Did you get nov roster ?? Its hell !!!!!!!
Smart roster management terminated R.P and hired system from Sweden and look what we got : roster full of DH + OFF days not payed + if you survive month maybe you can visit termination/resignation department .

Kick P.M from mananger roster position and kick Mr Mhd from what ever he do and put right people in right places .
O sorry i got to know that P.M cant sleep if R.P dont do roster so he was on knees asking him to help till Dec . what a mananger ha ha ha

Fatique,stress,less sleep and mixed night -day working are main reason for people beeing sick . So Mr. P.M YOU MAKE ME SICK

[AirbusMaster]

Indeed, the new roster system is hell....for both types…330 and 320 !

Dead Heading is badly used on the 330 & minimum rest is widely used on the 320!

I saw 2 instructors in dispatch complaining of min rest between non training flights followed by training night flights

I couldn't help but wonder ....If the instructors are working like that, what quality of training do you expect?? I don't think it is even safe!

CPT should watch out, he should follow up this stuff.

[widebody300er]

Well Guys never did get an email to attend sim in Doha.. Did my interview Oct 8th. 5000hrs 767 typed... ??? Find it kind of funny since they keep saying they need people so bad!!

Cheers

[loc22550]

Airbus master: Wich CP are you talking about to help us...? The 320 one...?No comment..

Snam, that's indeed the only language they will understand here, ASR or report unfit to fly due to fatigue.And you are totally entitled to do it!(OM partA), i will even say that it's your responsability to do it.

i'm not talking about "lazy" guys who report sick simply because they have decided that today they are not in a mood to fly, or they don't want to fly to such a destination, or they don't want to fly wich such a Cpt ...),that different of course, i NEVER done this in Q.A and i will probably never do this kind of think.Yes for me those guys deserve to be threaten!

BUT regarding REAL fatigue, if it continue like that SOON, or later i will have to report unfit to flight,because at the end of the day that's a real safety issue.!
Being threatened...for What..?!
If they do that go straight to the QCAA.(same for fuel policy, when they used to send letter to pilots to intimidate them in order to take minimum fuel or to revise their extra fuel policy), if you still have such a letter ,you should handle it to the QCAA...
Loc.

[loc22550]

Off course they are reading all the ASR, but if only a couple of guys fill up a ASR about fatigue, they will not take it into consideration...
I'm SURE a lot of pilots are tired because of roster issue, but a lot of them don't dare to fill up an ASR.:ugh:Thats the big problem, because thinks will NEVER improve like that!

[shneidertrophy]

SNAM, dont you think we tried that allready?

This is part of the "divide and conquer" strategy here, make sure a percentage big enough of your pilots have passports/licences whitout any other option so the ones with some more freedom loose their pulling strength!

Some guys can not afford to loose their job (bread and butter) over an issue like fatigue, and they will never write an ASR!

The sad truth in aviation my friend!

[Alcatraz69]

As an F/O, can you file an ASR ?

[Xaxa]

According to OM, anyone can file an ASR.

11.6.1.

Air Safety Reports (ASR) may be submitted by any Company person whether a member of
flight crew or not.

[A320 Man]

xaxa,

I don't know if you are working for QA or not, but you sure have the "QA attitude" why do we have to point fingers to each others and say things like...READ YOUR O.M.....

The guy just asked a simple question, maybe he doesn't fly for QA and his current company doesn't allow f/o's to file ASR!
Or maybe he is just a new joiner, or even a senior pilot but asking a legitimate question!

Calm down, don't act like some QA instructors and thank you for the answer.

[shneidertrophy]

Sure you can!

Any pilot can write an ASR. If your captain does not have the balls and you feel an ASR is in place, by all means, write one!

Just tell him about your plan.

[registorme]

My friend told me about QAW.

One pilot was drinking water after long flight and CEO seen that, he instantly sacked him without explanation. That day outside temperature was 45'C and all passengers were disembarked and only crew was on aircraft.

in another incident CEO sacked one pilot as he was busy in performing cockpit checks and did not regard CEO, pilot was new and he didn't knew about CEO.

CEO sacked many british cabin crew girls who forgot name of single arabic dish.

The only reason this airline is not reaching in top two airlines in world is because crew and staff is always worring about job. No one is taking extra step to make airline better. This way I like Virgin Atlantic. Richard Branson sits, eats and drinks with staff.

My friend suggested same to QAW boss,:ugh:
Result ..................My friend was sacked.

[archenergy]

Ok this is getting way off subject but anyone can file an ASR, pilots, cabin crew, engineers, despatchers, refuellers. And you needn't possess balls to submit one!

Widebody (canadian pilot), in my opinion, perhaps they felt you were overqualified for their current needs for first officers? I went to Doha last week for sim assessment and was told by examiner that they are recruiting for 20 first officers for B777 fleet for courses starting in Nov/Dec. Not recruiting DECs on B777. I'm still waiting with fingers crossed.

[A330 man]

This is what was written in another thread about Emirates...maybe that is how some airlines should do to keep their staff.


Emirates . Nothing can compare in the Gulf . If you look at a total Package

Consideration Married with 3 children

Full Basic Salary from day One . Even when training
Competitive Salary increment each year however subject to approval ( read ;may not approve) upto 15 payscales
Accommodation provided ( furnished incluidng water power and local telephone)
Adddittional Flying allowance paid per hour .( not much and does'nt tempt you from not going on vacation) But every little helps
Transport to work and back ( Audi Estate) so no seocnd car and no reason to stay awake during late night pick ups and drops
Schooling assistance for upto 3 kids upto their 19th Birthday ( you pay apporx 10%) There is a maximumm cap
Medical for Self and family for inpatient and Insurance cover for Outpaitent provided by company for emplyee and discounted premimum paid by employee for family
Free uniform , suitcase shoes pajamas for ULR
Provident fund contirbution 12-15% based on service
Tickets for self and family and ( one set confirmed every year)
Retirement tickets plus
Medical cover insurance continues after retirement provided premimums paid by employee
Meal allowance abroad -not the highest allowance by a long short .Enough in most places
First class hotels ( most stations)
Rostering . A bidding system that generally works
6 weeks of leave Has to be split so as to afford more staff to go on leave in peak period
Emirates Pilots Club ( pilots organised and very succesfull club memebrship at choice clubs)
quicker connections when travelling on vacations
Great Equipment to fly
Great pilots to fly with
Great destinations
Rapid promotion prospect
Stable Upper Management
Profit Share program
Generally a reasonable fleet managment
Great training facilities
Still expanding

[Lulu qatar]

In Emirates there is NO AAB !!!!!!!!!

[loc22550]

Well Emirates has probably understood since long time that if you have the ambition of building up a strong airlines, you HAVE TO invest in people and known how to motivate them!

[shneidertrophy]

Really? Do you think so?

You are absolutely right. QR still sees its workforce (yes, pilots as well) as an army of personal slaves!

As long as they pay us we have to fullfill the task! The priciple of investing in the employees, regarding employees as a capital bases for the future etc etc is just an unknown fact in QR!

EK and EY in a lesser extend are investing in their employees as they realise that training costs money and they need a ROI!
QR trains you and if you resign after 6 months they are to pigheaded to do something about it!

MONEY ENOUGH I GUESS!

[AirbusMaster]

I thought QA pilots had enough motivation by the latest Flt. Ops. Management decisions:

Examples:
Block the pilots on current types (especially the 320 captains), reduce the Hotel Acc. standard to 3 stars, disregard the seniority list, Block the salary increment, hire their buddies as DEC on wide body equipments, max work with unpaid days off during your layovers.

What else the management can do for you pilots???
You are indeed a bunch of ungrateful drivers!!!!!

[Lulu qatar]

TRUE 100% i meet new British pilots jojning DEC on 777 and A330 guess what most of them NON RATED .
Cool A320 drivers get stuck on 320 while B.W and I.M friends are taking wide body and enjojing all benifits .
Its time for 320 guyz to pack and go to Korea ,Air Asia ,Etihad ,EK....

[Ronaldo 330]

Lets see how long it will take till CEO terminate this 2 clowns .

[A330 man]

Luluqatar

TRUE 100% i meet new British pilots jojning DEC on 777 and A330 guess what most of them NON RATED .


Cool A320 drivers get stuck on 320 while B.W and I.M friends are taking wide body and enjojing all benifits .
Its time for 320 guyz to pack and go to Korea ,Air Asia ,Etihad ,EK....




So what was written in the first page of this thread (back in September) was completely correct !!
IM and BW are holding the poor 320 captains while hiring their non-type rated friends on the 330 and 777!!! :D

I guess by the time of their termination it will be too late for the 320 pilots, but guys don't worry the A350 will arrive in 2013, so wait a little longer, it is only 5 more years!! But who knows maybe BW and IM will still be here, so they will change Part A again to force some of their friends to the 350 while the 320 people of QA will be already flying wide body types in other airlines !!

[AirbusMaster]

The unfairness reached a new level with IM, he is selecting UK guys over the heads of all the other instructors.

He selected JL on fast track instructor on 777 after being removed from training on the 330.
Also selecting another UK guy on the 320 to be a fast track TRI, while many LI's are ahead of him seniority wise on the 320 and in the airline, but hey…remember?…no seniority consideration anymore, only merit and caliber!!

IM and BW keep the destruction going.:D

[loc22550]

let's not forget that,
in the mean time, management has succeed as well in turning the 320 fleet into a laboratory to test the pilot's resistance to fatigue(i thought Q.R's primary concern was the safety...:}),while some other pilots on other fleet enjoy a really easy live in Q.R.!!

[AirbusMaster]

I filed my first ASR few days ago when I was flying an intra gulf flight after a layover leg, I noticed that after more than 11 hrs of duty on the 320 (and 3 T/O's) your response is much slower and total awareness is degraded noticeably (for both pilots)

I can tell you when I was flying the 330 to KIX I did not feel that tired, maybe because it is less work load than 3 or 4 T/Os, approaches and Landings?
Or maybe because we had the time to use the legal nap time??
I don't know, but I think it is not safe to frequently operate the 320 this way.

[loc22550]

Airbus Master, i experienced and i did the same thing as you did as well..
You are 100% correct.
What i did as well now, i asked the roster once simply to remove one of my flight because for me as a cpt this operation was totally unsafe!And if they didn't remove it , i would simply report unfit for this flight!They did it!
That's the way it is now, you have to fight for your own safety here..!

But the difference now is that they have been advised by a couple of ASR i think, so they can't deny the problem, and they better do something ASAP.

[archenergy]

AirbusMaster, what exactly was it that made you think, "I must file an ASR"? What did you do (or forget to do) which made you relate it to being fatigued? Well done for submitting a form though, it's the right thing to do if you feel you should bring it to the attention of others.

[AirbusMaster]

What happened were many small mistakes, many unanswered ATC calls… I was distracted while the speed passed the flap retraction with more than 15 knots, the PNF suddenly noticed and shouted: flaps… speed I realized we were about to reach the Flaps VFE speed, ordered the flaps up at the last moment !!!but the most serious one when the PF selected the G/A ALT earlier before G/S capture, till we actually were about 200ft below the platform altitude, only then I pushed v/s to level off. Lucky the ATC did not make a fuss about it (maybe went un-noticed).

[Black Stain]

Just relax and let it go.....

You can't stop what's coming

[shneidertrophy]

Just continue to file those ASRs guys! Eventually they will have to listen.

Many years ago we used to do TRV turnaround flights, with a departure at 2300 LT and back in OTBD around 1030LT. Back than the CAP 371 FT/DT was not there so we could do this, although it was barely legal!

We started filing ASRs untill management wrote an ASR whereby they said NO ASRs could be filed if they where fatigue related! Imagine THAT! So some pilots reported this to the QCAA.
You would not BELIEVE how fast they reversed both the ACN and how fast they found HOTAC in TRV!!!

I saw the roster of an A320 captain lately and its a disgrace. Sure, its all legal looking at the book but a couple of things where bluntly forgotten:

1) CAP 371 is designed for the European airspace. Very rarely a Medium haul crew will cross two timezones as there are no destinations that far so most of the time pilots ALWAYS stay acclimatised! This limits the number of possible consecutive nightduties to 2 or 3 and not 6 or 7 like the duties we see in QR!

2)CAP 371 was a recommendation made by the JAA authorities. In case an airline would fall outside the standard European airspace (Western europe) CAP 371 rules where supposed to be changed to cater for the special needs of these airlines. The redesigned rules would be made by a joint venture between the airline and the union to saveguard both parties'intrests. QR defenitely fall outside the geographical region the CAP371 rules where intended to be used in!!

Remember as well that OTBD actually should be in the OMDB timezone but is kept on JEDDAH time for religeous reasons!!!!This one hour makes all the difference! If you think about it and if we would be on OMDB time, sending a 320 crew on a layover to CMB or TRV would keep them acclimatised which would limit the number of consecutive nightduty being legal!Your body feeld it differently off course ( never wondered why 1730 in dubai feels more normal than 1730 in Doha where it is pitch black allready?)

3) CAP 371 never took into consideration Dead heading sectors and split duties whereby you stay 4 hours on the ground in the middle of the night, locked up in an aircraft, because doing so would simply cost too much money to any normal airline where you are getting paid for any duty performed, including DH!

4) CAP 371 talks about the saveguarding of the circadian rythm etc etc. This is the first thing QR forgets to do!


So we actually have a chapter 7 which is not adapted by QR and the QCAA to the type of flying we perform in this region! It is totally unsuitable for our operation but nobody gives a dime!

How many of us can honestly say that the situation, as described by Airbusmaster, never happend to them? How many of us actually came close to selecting the wrong flapsetting, mispressing the correct FCU PB, loosing spaciala awereness etc...just because they simply where fighting to keep their eyes open during descent and approach?

I bet you that, in case everybody would be honest, 80% or more would reckognise these points! And the 20% who would say they'd never seen these things happening probably just joined the airline and are still fresh!

Its a disgrace!

[A330 man]

The latest joke in the "new roster" system is to roster pilots DOH-DMM-
DOH-KTM!

Yes, you are required to fly 2 sectors before you go to Kathmandu, performing a VOR approach when you are dead tired facing the high possibility of a missed approach, hoping not to get any failures with this level of fatigue.



P.Mc.N. don't you know if we lose a plane in such situation…you will lose
your job and might be prosecuted too?

shneidertrophy (http://www.pprune.org/members/192884-shneidertrophy), you are completely correct, we have to stop this dangerous roster planning, especially this misuse of the non-acclimatized rule, when they make you more tired to be legal !!

[loc22550]

There are some other Jokes on 320 A-330 man:

-After a couple of incident they decided to make CCJ layover(i heard it's a cat c airport now..not sure)BUT now you will have to operate another flight before (turnaround in the gulf area!)!!!:ugh::ugh:

-Cochin flight was layover,now it became turnaround(night flight 4h to go,4h coming back), operated if possible after minimum rest,.. better for the performance...!!!:\

-KTM sometime now is turnaround.

What a JOKE!!!!
In qatar airways LEGALITY=SAFETY.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[fatiguedpilot]

well i have completed the us navy seals version of hell week, part of the buds training, where sleep deprivation is the name of the game, so i guess rostering have been on that course as well, day night night night evening night oh and last but not least a night to finish on. makes u wish u where back on the good old 330 flying for 7-12 hrs and then having a rest then flying back. the cok turnaround is a killer and the hyd turn just as bad now u go to dxb then cmb 11 hrs rest then back to doh. if i get another week like that its asr every couple of nights plus a fatigue call.

[AirbusMaster]

A 320 instructor reported sick for a double rotation duty, they called many instructors they said NO, we are too tired, the crew help"less" desk staff just wondered loudly why he was tired? He was in the sim for the last 2 days?!?!?

Can you imagine the mentality and quality of the people who are calling us for duty? And changing our rosters on daily basis?

[A320 Man]

While I was there for the interview, I met many QA pilots.
Etihad is recruiting the good but leaving the bad and the ugly for us!

The living proof is this true story:

QA had a TRE on 320 (M.S.) who was removed from training after a hard landing in AXD during training, after a while he left to EY to fly the 330 leaving behind his no.2 brother who was promoted from right to left seat on the QA 330.

no.3 brother was flying 767 as F/O somewhere in the USA, he applied to EY, he failed the interview.
Can you guess where is he now? Direct entry F/O non type rated on the 777 for QA.

No further comment.

[smartpilot]

320 Man

long time, thought you have left already.

well don't remember in which thread I shared with brother Shneidertrophy a brief history on the S brothers and expectations as well, so looks like only one of the 2 leftovers still have a chance to follow MID S brothers.


Again who to blame, the recruitment team i guess.

[AirbusMaster]

In the old days (before IM and BW) we used to see the instructors accepting to fly on their "OFF" days, (even when it was for free), their mobiles were always ON...etc.
But it seems the new team managed to change their attitude towards their job.

Lately I was called more than 3 times from my standby to cover for trainers who reported sick or refused to accept a duty in a day off or even don't answer their mobile phones when they see it is the company calling.

How do you explain this change in morale of the most senior and privileged personnel of the airline?

[NoJoke]

You are right. Simply put, the Instructors are now NOT the most priviledged; indeed they are over worked to a point that they make mistakes. 95 hrs a month of instruction not only reduces the quality of training but errodes the safety margins. When the inevitable happens they are blamed and dismissed. Good old I.M. :ugh:

[old747man]

why is the request days off selection missing ....from the aims roster page any Idea ?:confused:

[A330 man]

New memo from the management. No days off request during December due to the large number of pilots on leave.

I wonder why? I don't think we will operate for 30 days in a row!! there must be some days off taken anyway.

Unless they are planning to give those days off during a layover!!:=

[loc22550]

No joke:Regarding mistake related to fatigue
what is true for instructor is true as well for any crew ...expecially flying the 320!

Days off in december?, too late anyway, any request for december has to be done before the 1st of november!
Any news for the 2009 leave..? No bidding yet on the Aims..?

[Xaxa]

Days off in december?, too late anyway, any request for december has to be done before the 1st of november!
The point of the memo was that if you submitted your request before nov 1st, you still wont get your requested days off. So even before nov 1st it was retroactively too late. :sad:

[BizPilotBrazil]

Despite the problems, i think the QR is the best option to a Non Boeing/Airbus Type Rated pilots.
Yes. I know that need to sign a Training Bond. But its only 3 years.
I am stil waiting to the assessment. I want to go!!!!

[A320 Man]

Of course QA is a good airline, what we wrote lately here was out of our care to improve the company rather than see it going down by bad managerial decisions made by some new managers, who did not know anything about the airline.

But it seems that these managers are on their way out VERY SOON.

Keep your fingers crossed; we are all hoping for the best to the company and the pilots at the same time.

[smartpilot]

INDEED MESS count down started, looks like he is staying as LC only not even LTC, it's time to build up some experience