GURKHA COURAGE and LOYALTY ABUSED YET AGAIN!

[cazatou]

As I live in France I do not get a daily UK Newspaper; it therefore came as a surprise that Gurkha soldiers have to apply to become resident in the UK.

Can someone please provide me with details of how I can contribute towards their Legal Expenses in respect of their current Court Case?

Perhaps HMG should consider the words of Field Marshal The Viscount Slim KG, GCB, GCMG. GBE, DSO, MC:

The Almighty created in the Gurkha an ideal infantryman, brave, tough, patient,adaptable, skilled in field-craft, intensely proud of his military record and unswervingly loyal. Add to this his honesty in word and deed, his parade perfection, and his unquenchable cheerfulness, then service with Gurkhas is for any soldier an immense satisfaction

[D O Guerrero]

Given the Government's contempt for military history and the lessons that it affords, do you think that is likely to happen?

[exscribbler]

Cazatou: Thanks for that. :ok: I've forwarded that quotation to my (Labour) MP with the following addition:

Why has this had to go to the High Court? This pusillanimous regime has allowed into our country all kinds of people from all over the world, some of whom are prepared to do us harm or commit crimes against us and who are not removed from our country either because the ministry charged with that duty does not think it worthwhile or the government can not frame its legislation on such a way that the judiciary must follow its aims.

How come, then, men who have served our country with devotion and loyalty are not considered worthy of residence? Tell me that, please.

I'll let you know if I receive a reply, but I'm not holding my breath...

[A2QFI]

I recall that the Ghurkas were also shabbily treated some years ago over a question of pension differentials. This government allows dangerous extremist scum and petty criminals to come and stay here without let or hindrance, can't or won't deport them when it is legal and appropriate and yet men who have served the Queen, for 20+ years in some cases, who been wounded, earned medals and more, are deemed to have insufficient connection with this Country to be granted residency. I wish I was still a dual national - I'd give up thr British bit of it like a shot. I am ashamed of my country and its dealings with these fine and honourable men.

Don't let's have any claptrap about "We are only enforcing the law as it stands". Get started on some deportations to show you mean business!!!!!

[ZH875]

1. Let the ex Ghurka's who are not fit for work have full UK residential status.
2. Employ the ex Ghurka's who are fit for work as Deportation Agents with full residential status.
3. Use them to get rid of the Illegals and undesirables from the UK.

Then everyone who should be happy, will be happy.

Nice to see Tul Badahur Pun VC looking well, but was that smile due to Joanna Lumley?:)

[cazatou]

Nice to see that some sections of the population disagree with me; because that is democracy.

However, nobody has answered the question:

HOW DO I CONTRIBUTE TO THE FUND TO HELP THE GENTLEMEN FR0M NEPAL???

[Dengue_Dude]

I know this is an Aircrew (mainly) forum, but for once here is an issue worthy of the people who have contributed so much to our Forces.

I have enjoyed carting a few loads of these warriors (I use the word advisedly) from place to place over the years and am always impressed by their geniality, cheerfulness and downright professionalism.

I've just given my two army issue kukris to a friend who will polish them and make them worthy of these little guys - the big men of the Ghurka regiment.

When I think of some of the dross that is allowed rights in our country, it is totally iniquitous that these men (and their families) don't have the rights of total strangers.

What's the matter - they too honourable for this government to stomach?

[sycamore]

Cazatou,`google` is your friend;ie gurkhas.com...or howe & co,solicitors dealing with the case...

[albertadj]

C,

Check your PMs.

AA

:ok:

[cazatou]

I'll say it one more time;

WHERE DO I SEND A CHEQUE TO HELP THESE WARRIORS ??????

[exscribbler]

I have a reply from my MP! He says he is definitely with me on this one.

The obvious follow-up question has got to be, "So what are you doing about it?" I'll let you know if he responds to that one. Has anyone else contacted their MPs - and have they replied?

Cazatou: Any success? If every Ppruner put in £5...

[cazatou]

exscribbler,

5 years ago a French Army Mechanised Brigade held manouvres in our local area. At the end of their exercise the Unit spent the night in the local Town. None of the Soldiers paid for a drink that night!!!

The following morning they departed and drove past my then house - the Colonel saw my UK registered car and stopped to have a chat!!

[Wader2]

On a cruise holiday chat forum someone has set up a poll for the Ghurkas. Last time I looked it was 25:0.

Many security staff of cruise ships are Ghurka. You may remember the incident on Seabourn Pricess where a Ghurka manned the cpounter-measures system and after being wounded continued to operate the kit.

I also saw a Ghurka on the QE2 manning the same kit while in a French port.

[Shaft109]

I am disgusted with the treatment of these guys. From ITN:

Gurkhas who fought with the British Army but have no strong ties to the UK do not have the right to settle here, a lawyer representing the Home Office has told a High Court judge.

Steven Kovats was replying to a challenge by more than 2,000 Gurkhas to a tribunal ruling on their immigration status.

Gurkhas who retired from the British Army after 1997, when their base was moved from Hong Kong to Kent, can automatically stay in the UK.

But those who retired earlier and whose individual settlement cases were decided by visa officials in Kathmandu and Hong Kong must apply for permission to stay and may be refused and deported.

The judge, Mr Justice Blake, asked whether a Gurkha who had won a Victoria Cross but had no strong ties would be eligible to settle.

Mr Kovats replied: "Having a VC is not necessarily a strong tie bringing the entry application within the policy."

Where does Britain go from here? Down the pan.

[Rigger1]

Nice to see the courts with some common sense for once : BBC NEWS | UK | Gurkhas win right to stay in UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7644441.stm)

[BEagle]

A group of retired Gurkhas fighting for the right to settle in Britain have won their immigration test case at London's High Court.

They were challenging immigration rules which said that those who retired from the British Army before 1997 did not have an automatic right to stay.

Prominent supporter actress Joanna Lumley said it was a "chance to right a great wrong".

The government said it would now review all Gurkhas' cases.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Now that really is an Absolutely Fabulous result!

[ZH875]

Three cheers for Mr Justice Blake, and Three beers for the Ghurkas.

Justice has been seen to be done.

[exscribbler]

Agreed - this is a brilliant result but how long will the "review" take?

I would have thought there was nothing further for the government to say; action is now required, not words and delaying tactics.

Cynic? Moi?

[Biggles225]

:ok:That is a great result, I'm so pleased for them all. Lets hope the 'review' isnt just another excuse to duck it!

[ex_rigger]

With you Rigger 1. Thank god common sense has prevailed. Only hope this no hope government doesn`t find a way out of the ruling. Well done everyone involved in getting this through the courts.:ok:

[TiffyFGR4]

This is great news, fantastic, I'm so happy!!! :D I Jumped up into the air & shouted; 'YEEES' when I heard the news...I did....Really!!! http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/embarass.gif I even had a drink of Bailey's Creamed Whiskey on them!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/embarass.gif

This should have been done a bloody long time ago! Shame it took so long.

Gurkha's Forever!!!

[Arclite01]

I have often wondered why, when there is a shortage of recruits and manpower for the Army, and always more candidates than places for the Gurkha regiments, we don't just recruit more of them to fill the gaps, and also why as part of the 'contract' we don't give them full British citizenship at the end of the engagement provided they have an exemplary record. That arrangement works well for the Foriegn Legion in France.

Or am I missing something here ??

Arc

[Chugalug2]

Once again the judiciary points us to what is right, away from attitudes that are wrong, like:
"Having a VC is not necessarily a strong tie bringing the entry application within the policy."
Well done Gurkhas, well done Howe & Co, well done Joanna Lumley! :ok:
Now Let Right Be Done!

[air pig]

Time to start on the political scum suckers again, ( they work for us not the other way around ) make them aware of the feeling within the service and ex-service community about how these gentlemen are being treated. I use the term gentlemen in both sense's but I would never anger a Gurhka. I like certain parts of my anatomy where they are, thank you very much.

Gurkha's, I salute you one and all.

Air Pig.

[Molemot]

Although I acclaim the decision by Mr. Justice Blake, I fear this will not be the end of the matter; Ms. Lumley is right to say that things are not yet decided. The recent decision affects only the six Ghurkas who formed part of this case; there is also a promise by the Home Office to review the other 2000 or so applications for residence which have been refused so far. Since the wording of the judgement includes reference to inadequate attention being paid to the bravery of these six men, their length of service and wounds sustained in action, it is open to the Home Office to maintain their refusal decision in cases where these circumstances do not apply. Now to the nub of the matter; I understand that there are some 40,000 other Ghurkas and family members who have not even begun the expensive application process, and would also qualify for residence if the concession to those serving after 1997 was extended to all ex-serving Ghurkas.
I think the politicians are of the opinion that there are just too many of them, and are seeking to treat them in the same way as those of our troops held prisoner by the Japanese were treated, when it came to considerations of compensation; wait long enough and most of them will no longer be in a position to claim anything. The Bomber Command campaign medal falls into the same category.
There is a Government Petition on the subject of Ghurka residence: Petition to: give all Ex Gurkha soldiers and their families who have served our country British citizenship on leaving the service. | Number10.gov.uk (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Gurkha-soldiers/) should link you to it.
It was tried before, in 1997. This time, with the recent court case, there should be a better chance; over 36,000 signatures at present and a deadline of 26th November. We must bring as much pressure to bear as possible.

[PPRuNe Radar]

There is another petition here, with 96,000+ signatures.

Gurkha Justice Campaign (http://www.gurkhajustice.org.uk/)

Give the Gurkhas your support. :ok:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

The news today is not so good! Looks like the slippery, obnoxious cretins who pose as our Government have, yet again, spat in the face of overwhelming public opinion.


Campaigners have reacted with anger to new rules on the eligibility of Gurkha veterans to live in the UK. The Home Office said that new rules would allow about 4,300 more to settle, but the Gurkha Justice Campaign said it would be just 100.
Actress Joanna Lumley, a campaigner for the Gurkhas, said the announcement made her "ashamed of our administration".
Immigration Minister Phil Woolas denied he had betrayed the Gurkhas, adding: "This improves the situation."
He said: "It has never been the case that all Gurkhas pre-1997 were to be allowed to stay in the country. With their dependents you could be looking at 100,000 people.
"It's simply not true that we have betrayed the Gurkhas. When people read the guidelines they will see the sense of them."
'Truly appalling'
In September 2008, the High Court ruled that immigration rules denying Gurkhas who retired before 1997 - about 36,000 - an automatic right to stay in the UK were unlawful.
Peter Carroll, from the Gurkha Justice Campaign, said the fight to allow them to stay in this country would continue with renewed vigour.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif If they want Gurkha soldiers, they should treat them equally http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Dhan Gurung
Ex-Gurkha


He added: "The one group of people that has never let this country down has been let down today in a manner which is truly appalling."
David Enwright, a solicitor representing the Gurkhas, said: "This government, Mr Woolas, should hang their head in shame so low that their forehead should touch their boots.
"This is a disgrace and a betrayal of our armed forces and our veterans."
Dhan Gurung, the first ex-Gurkha to be elected as a councillor in the UK, said the announcement was "insulting to loyal Gurkhas".
He added: "If they want Gurkha soldiers, they should treat them equally."
Gurkhas have been part of the Army for almost 200 years and are hand-picked from a fiercely-contested recruitment contest in Nepal to win the right to join.
They have seen combat all over the world, with 200,000 having fought in the two world wars and 45,000 believed to have lost their lives fighting for Britain.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifSETTLEMENT CRITERIA
Three years continuous residence in the UK during or after service
Close family in the UK
A bravery award of level one to three
Service of 20 years or more in the Gurkha brigade
Chronic or long-term medical condition caused or aggravated by service

Gurkhas who retired before 1997 must meet at least one of these conditions

The regiment moved its main base from Hong Kong to the UK in 1997 and the government had argued that Gurkhas discharged before that date were unlikely to have strong residential ties with the UK.
That meant those who wanted to settle in the UK had to apply for British residency and could be refused and deported.
Mr Woolas outlined the eligibility criteria in a written ministerial statement. Gurkhas and their families will be allowed to stay in the UK if they meet at least one of five requirements.
These are three years of continuous residence in the UK, close family in the country, 20 or more years of service, a level one to three bravery award, and a serious medical condition caused or aggravated by service.
Alternatively, veterans can gain residency if they meet at least two of an additional set of three criteria.
These are having been awarded an MoD disability pension but no longer having a chronic condition, having been mentioned in dispatches, and 10 years' service or a campaign medal.
But Ms Lumley, whose father served with the Gurkhas, said most Gurkhas would not have been allowed to stay in the UK for three years or have gained a bravery award.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifALTERNATIVE CRITERIA
Awarded a UK MoD disability pension but no longer have a chronic medical condition
Mentioned in dispatches
Service of 10 years, or a campaign medal for active service

Gurkhas who retired before 1997 must meet at least two of these conditions

She added that only officers would have achieved 20 years of service, and that it would be near-impossible for troops who served in the 1950s and 1960s to prove that their medical conditions were caused by their time in the forces.
"They've given five bullet points that virtually cannot be met by the ordinary Gurkha soldier," she said.
"It is so obvious that the treatment of the Gurkhas has been a huge injustice," she said.
"To treat them like this is despicable."
'Moral debt'
The Home Office said that as a result of the decision, a total of 4,300 Ghurkas who served prior to 1997 would be eligible for residency.
A spokesman added there were currently 1,300 applications outstanding, 300 of which would now be granted.
In September, Mr Justice Blake ruled that instructions given by the Home Office to immigration officials were unlawful and needed urgent revision.
He said the Gurkhas' long service, conspicuous acts of bravery and loyalty to the Crown all pointed to a "moral debt of honour" and gratitude felt by British people.
The government promised to revise its guidance, but in March 2009, the Gurkhas returned to the High Court to try and enforce the ruling.

[Rigger1]

Posted 30th Septmeber 2008 - Thank god common sense has prevailed. Only hope this no hope government doesn`t find a way out of the ruling.

Why should this then come as such a surprise from our government, they have no morals and are not fit to even lick a Gurkah’s boots. These fine upstanding, incredibly polite men who have served their adopted country so finely must wonder why they are been treated so unfairly by people we have elected. Today, the day after St Georges day, I’m ashamed to be English.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Why did the government (Jacqui Smith) give the job of sorting this to a minion. It was I thought at least a ministerial decision. To downgrade it as they have done is to denigrate the Gurkha's. A singularly disgraceful act.

Its time for Joanna to get some more support(PPRuNe can help) to get these wonderful people their right of residency instead of giving it to those who have no right to be here.

[Bladdered]

And a particularly big well done to Joanne Lumley who has been pushing this matter hard for years.:D

[NURSE]

Interesting everyone keeps banging on about Bravery decorations I keep seeing on BBC site and others that the Medals needed are Campaign medals like Italy/Burma Star, GSM, Kosovo,Bosnia,Falklands, Gulf,Afghanistan type medals!

[cazatou]

I wonder if HMG had the gumption to pass the new rules by Mr Justice Blake for his views prior to todays announcement?

Perhaps Her Majesties Loyal Opposition would like to force a debate and vote on the new "rules".

[Chugalug2]

Bravo for stickying this thread PPRuNe Pop, now let's stick it to this government that brings dishonour to our nation. A renewal of the PPRuNe Arrse/Axis is surely the way to go after the success of the Mr Pun VC and Ashted Nimbys Campaigns. Isn't Joanna magnificent when she's angry? Her directness is what the Gurkha cause needs, these morons don't understand politeness.

[Dengue_Dude]

Well, well, well, there's no surprise is there at this shower of sh1t government - I hope they're not planning on being re-elected.

Perhaps the gurkhas need to get hooks for hands, become 'students', start preaching mayhem and hate for this country . . .

They'd be welcomed in, given money, houses, food and be able to stay as long as they like.

But no . . . they are gentlemen, considering what kind of warriors they are and have served this country and its interests professionally and quietly without causing any fuss.

Perhaps it's time to show this government up for what they are!

Go, Ms Lumley - you've got my vote !!!

[Spymovs]

I disagree that this is a "Huge Injustice". People are viewing this case as one of mistreatment of folk in an unpredictable predicament. Consider that Gurkha's see it is a massive honour to be able to serve in the British Army, and are no doubt at least partly motivated by the massive remuneration package (comparative to that at home), and substantially better living conditions; hence the perilous selection and training they endure. They did, after all, sign up knowing the deal and have not been in any way deceived to my knowledge. (I'll gladly stand corrected if this is not the case.)

The new criteria, at least, will make it possible for a few more ex-servicemen to stay in the UK, and I am absolutely positive the guys that qualify will be eternally grateful, and the one’s that don’t, still grateful for their opportunity to serve all the same. The new criteria are an improvement after all, surely it would be an embarrassment if it deteriorated the situation, but it did not.

Granted our immigration controls and tolerance to supporting foreigners, (and indeed many worthless Brits who don't care a less about our country,) and their dependents is a joke, however this does not serve as a suitable comparison due to its obvious inadequacy.

[Double Zero]

I don't know about Ms Lumley, and can only think in this case ' any publicity is good '.

The Ghurka's, like the Royal Marine who threw himself on a grenade for the sake of his mates, and come to that all service people ought to be given not only a good welcome but decent ( UK ) housing - don't tell me we can't afford it, even now the bankers have academically screwed us with paper figures...there are a lot of builders who'd be glad of the work, and we don't even need to take up 'green' space if it was done intelligently without back-handers to politicians.

Unfortunately the poor treatment goes way back before this Govt', though one can't help wonder at some of the people we ' let in '.

As I've said before that's a separate issue, but I'm damn sure we can make room for loyal warriors, especially as they might soon be the only applicants we have !

[PPRuNe Pop]

This subject should not arouse angst or any other kind of vitriol - except that to be aimed at the government who have not behaved very well in this case.

I well recall the Home Office requesting 3 months to assess what they would do after the court made its statement that the Gurkhas case should be reviewed. That was clearly a stalling manouvre and a disgraceful one at that.

Now, I suggest you find the email address to give Mr Woolas as bad a time as we did to Liam Byrne his predecessor. We all should.

No more diversions please. Each is entitled to his/her own opinion but must expect whatever it is to be challenged - as a right.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Chaps, chaps

If you wish to get into a slanging match please do so by PM. This topic is far to important to be taken off at an irrelevant tangent.

Yet again the creatures of Noo LIARbour have proven themselves to be beyond contempt. An utterly disgraceful decision! Woolas and Smith, words fail me, and after a good happy hour that is unusual!!

[PPRuNe Pop]

I am afraid I am going to do some modding! I agree with RP so I will now remove the posts that caused a problem.

No more please. Stick to the 'job' in hand and as RP says, let us go after Woolas and Smith.

[cockney steve]

Whilst "SPYMOVS" is factually correct, IE- All Nepalese accepted for the british Forces, will be assured an income and pension,not to mention social status, ....magnitudes above the average Nepalese income,...
To them, It's the promised land and riches that most can only dream about.
Yes, they knew the rules, joined and served on that basis.....BUT
These men serve honourably and loyally......in return, an honourable government would grant such loyal servants the right of residency, NOT cast them aside like a worn-out dishcloth.

That this morally bankrupt shower of inept ,unscrupulous ,self-serving shysters should choose to sidestep that obligation, says everything about them.

Anyone voting Labour again, wants to hang their head in shame.

W**ker Woolas supposedly represents this area, on some part of the political gravy-train.....time to plant a protest- poster in the front garden, methinks.

[Herc-u-lease]

The contempt of the Government amazes me, especially bearing in mind the potential length of conflict we can expect to endure in the sandpit(s); the impact being mainly on pre-1997 recruits is not lost on me.

Once again, an obvious, easy to target group is being singled out by the government, rather than an effective immigration policy. I can't really add anything to the words said by others - nuff said (by me at least but not on this subject!!)

H-u-L

[cazatou]

What, one wonders, is the "Policy" regarding those Gurhkas who married and raised a family whilst based in UK? Is it Government Policy that British born children will effectively be deported to Nepal?

[BEagle]

Unfortunately, House of Commons rules are such that Smith and Woolarse are only allowed to answer direct questions from their own constituents. To complain about this appalling treatment to our loyal Ghurkas, you must contact your own MP.

If you live in Oldham East & Saddleworth, Woolarse is your MP and you can e-mail him via his website at Contact Phil Woolas MP - Labour Member of Parliament for Oldham East and Saddleworth (http://www.philwoolasmp.org/contact.html) . Similarly, if you live in Redditch, Smith is your MP and can be contacted at [email protected] .

Otherwise, your first port of call MUST be through your local MP.

[tonker]

It's all about filling the country up with any odd riff raff as long as they don't have any patriotic feelings towards the country, apro pro achieving an easier transition into a European super state. The less Anglos that are here to argue or resist the better. This is and always has been the plan since to 60's.

The Gurhka is everything these people are not, and is thus not just surplus to requirements but actually a threat to to their cause and ambitions. We have no say in this matter and even if we did it would quickly be reveresed(Referendums in France/Ireland, North East assembly etc)

The de Anglicification of England has begun.

[PPRuNe Pop]

BEags, if you recall we did make regular 'attacks' on Liam Byrne via his email at the Home Office. It was quite effective.

Is not therefore the case that as the minister who has replaced Byrne he can be approached/contacted by anyone? Or do we go direct to expenses expert Smith?

Any other suggestions?

By the by, this is interesting and something Smith and Woolas should see.

The Gurkhas have loyally fought in nearly all of the world's major wars for 187 years and have earned Britain's highest service honors. They have won 13 Victoria Crosses, along with other important military awards, more than any other single troop in the army. No country has produced soldiers of such renown as the Gurkhas. The appellation of Gurkhas - By now the other name for Valor, courage, Steadfastness, Loyalty, Neutrality and Impartiality come from the Gorkha, a small hilly town located in west central Nepal.

[airborne_artist]

In the last couple of weeks I've had a parcel delivered by a former Ghurka and the electricity meter read by another former Ghurka. They were cheerful, professional, respectful and a joy to meet. I'd happily live next door to them, have my kids go to school with theirs, and I'm sure they add to this country, not detract from it. The Governments' decision just reinforces what I already knew about Nu Labour, sadly.

[Winch-control]

How sad really...They fight....they die...Nu Labour offers nothing... The population are up in arms to stop immigration, yet are determined these guys are allowed in ( and rightly so).
Why cant the nu labour see the genuine applicants when the majority out there can, and also see the hangers on that are not worthy? Yet nu labour allow them in?

[Icare9]

SETTLEMENT CRITERIA
Three years continuous residence in the UK during or after service
Close family in the UK
A bravery award of level one to three
Service of 20 years or more in the Gurkha brigade
Chronic or long-term medical condition caused or aggravated by service

Gurkhas who retired before 1997 must meet at least one of these conditions

The regiment moved its main base from Hong Kong to the UK in 1997 and the government had argued that Gurkhas discharged before that date were unlikely to have strong residential ties with the UK.
That meant those who wanted to settle in the UK had to apply for British residency and could be refused and deported.
Mr Woolas outlined the eligibility criteria in a written ministerial statement. Gurkhas and their families will be allowed to stay in the UK if they meet at least one of five requirements.
These are three years of continuous residence in the UK, close family in the country, 20 or more years of service, a level one to three bravery award, and a serious medical condition caused or aggravated by service.
Alternatively, veterans can gain residency if they meet at least two of an additional set of three criteria.
These are having been awarded an MoD disability pension but no longer having a chronic condition, having been mentioned in dispatches, and 10 years' service or a campaign medal.
But Ms Lumley, whose father served with the Gurkhas, said most Gurkhas would not have been allowed to stay in the UK for three years or have gained a bravery award.
ALTERNATIVE CRITERIA
Awarded a UK MoD disability pension but no longer have a chronic medical condition
Mentioned in dispatches
Service of 10 years, or a campaign medal for active service

Gurkhas who retired before 1997 must meet at least two of these conditions

She added that only officers would have achieved 20 years of service, and that it would be near-impossible for troops who served in the 1950s and 1960s to prove that their medical conditions were caused by their time in the forces.
"They've given five bullet points that virtually cannot be met by the ordinary Gurkha soldier," she said.
"It is so obvious that the treatment of the Gurkhas has been a huge injustice," she said.
"To treat them like this is despicable

If this is felt by our Government as an acceptable basis for people to come into our Country, then it should be applied to ALL who apply for entry, not just Gurkhas, whose sole "crime" is loyally fighting FOR this Country and not expecting those who live here to accept their ways, screaming out the Race card at every opportunity, while raking in benefits under assumed names and variations for as much as they can get. No one dares to fly a St Georges Day flagfor fear of being labelled "Racist", but it's OK to fly every other Nations!!
Like previous posters here, I am proud that this Country has such friends as them, and am appalled that our Government has treated them so shabbily.
We had a tradition of securing the loyalty of some of our fiercest enemies by incorporating them into the British Army (Scots, Sikhs, etcetera) and like the Romans, such soldiers should automatically have the right to citizenship (should they be so foolish as to want to now).
It is yet another tribute to the loyalty of these soldiers that they still serve the Queen, when many others would have turned from us in disgust.
We need more with their spirit, not turn them away.

[Winch-control]

If this is felt by our Government as an acceptable basis for people to come into our Country, then it should be applied to ALL who apply for entry, not just Gurkhas, whose sole "crime" is loyally fighting FOR this Country and not expecting those who live here to accept their ways, screaming out the Race card at every opportunity, while raking in benefits under assumed names and variations for as much as they can get. No one dares to fly a St Georges Day flagfor fear of being labelled "Racist", but it's OK to fly every other Nations!!
Like previous posters here, I am proud that this Country has such friends as them, and am appalled that our Government has treated them so shabbily.
We had a tradition of securing the loyalty of some of our fiercest enemies by incorporating them into the British Army (Scots, Sikhs, etcetera) and like the Romans, such soldiers should automatically have the right to citizenship (should they be so foolish as to want to now).
It is yet another tribute to the loyalty of these soldiers that they still serve the Queen, when many others would have turned from us in disgust.
We need more with their spirit, not turn them away.


here here! I agree ...Most strongly

[sycamore]

French Foreign Legionnaires are allowed to apply for French citizenship and residence after completing 3 years satisfactory Service,whatever their original nationality.

[Tankertrashnav]

No more please. Stick to the 'job' in hand and as RP says, let us go after Woolas and Smith.


I think in the interest of balance we ought to have a few words of support for the immigration minister. This man has just displayed gallantry of an order rarely seen, even among the Gurkhas. After all he has stood up and publicly spouted his party's line in the full knowledge that his words will bring universal contempt on himself. That no self-respecting person will ever give this man the time of day ever again is pretty certain, but still he pressed on. So come on chaps, lets hear it for our brave minister. Any suggestions for a suitable gallantry award?

[cazatou]

Tankertrashnav

As this site's name is descended from Plt Off Percy Prune of Tee Emm fame in WW2, may I suggest that there is only one suitable award:


MHDOIF


The Most Highly Derogatory Order of the Irremovable Finger

[PPRuNe Pop]

The whole issue is to be debated on Wednesday in the HoC.

BBC report:



A government decision to limit the number of Gurkha veterans allowed to settle in the UK faces a parliamentary challenge from the Liberal Democrats. They have secured a debate on the issue in the House of Commons on Wednesday.
Campaigners claim fewer than 100 of the Nepalese soldiers will benefit from the Home Office's offer of UK residency to Gurkhas who meet certain conditions.
The government insisted that changes to residency rules would allow an extra 4,300 former Gurkhas to settle.
Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg held talks with actress Joanna Lumley, who has spoken out on behalf of 36,000 Gurkhas denied residency because they served in the British Army before 1997.

And this:


Mr Clegg said the debate meant that a minister would have to "come and explain the government's insulting decision to turn their back on these brave soldiers".
"This is our best chance to force Gordon Brown to back down, even at this late stage," he said.
"People who are prepared to fight and die for this country should be entitled to live here.
"Yet even this basic principle is broken by a government desperate to cover its back and wriggle out of its commitments."


Maybe this will result in a re-think, then again............................

[capewrath]

Petition here:-

Gurkha Justice Campaign (http://www.gurkhajustice.org.uk/)

Almost 175,000 signatures so far and that's 5,000 added since I signed this morning.

Note - your name and address etc will be accepted even if you don't want to add your phone number.

[Tankertrashnav]

MHDOIF

Yep, Cazatou - very appropriate. Wonder if some artistic PPruner will do him a bestowal document for his award and send it to him. Go nicely with his CBE or whatever the standard issue to junior ministers is these days for slavishly adhering to the party line.

[bombedup6]

This comes from a thread in ARRSE from Gerald Howarth, MP for Aldershot, which has quite a lot of ex-Gurkhas and their families in his constituency. Howarth has, shall we say, strong views about immigration, and appears to be closer to Nu Labour on the Gurkha issue than his own party.



Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:02 am

Received a reply from my MP:


Quote:
Dear VB

Thanks for your email. The Conservative Party's position was set out in
a brief statement by Shadow Immigration Minister, Damian Green,
yesterday:

"The Government is trying to evade the effects of a very clear court
judgement. This is an insult to the Gurkhas. We have said all along that
the Government should not try to challenge the courts and they would
have done better to listen."

Having been out of London on defence visits all day yesterday I'm not
able to tell you more. As regards the Leader raising the matter at PM's
questions next week, the issues he raises are determined on the day,
depending on the political agenda prevailing then.

There are, of course, substantial implications for residents of the
Aldershot constituency where there is already a very large Nepalese
community running into several thousand. In advance of the Govt
announcement (which the Gurkhas expected to reflect their understanding
of the High Court ruling) the spokesman for the British Gurkha Welfare
Society, based in Farnborough, told the local paper that he expected
'almost 1,000 people' to come to Rushmoor immediately, made up of about
250 ex-Gurkhas plus their dependents. In my discussions with the BGWS I have established that if all former Gurkhas were granted right of
settlement in the UK that would entitle some 34,000 to come here - plus
dependents. Given that the Nepalese community is heavily represented in
places like Rushmoor and Folkestone that order of migration could have a
massive effect.

Clearly, such a potential influx would require careful planning and I
regret I have seen no evidence that anyone has given any consideration
to the challenges which could arise.

Thank you for writing.

Best wishes

Gerald Howarth MP
Member of Parliament for Aldershot & Shadow Defence Minister
House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA
ViroBono



Posts: 6964
Joined: Jul 13, 2003
Location: Northern Ireland

[cockney steve]

just E-mailed to Woolas, tried to bypass his aparatchniks but not a lot of hope that the arrogant man will actually read it.

"Sir,
I am appalled that you should support this government's brazen disregard of ghurka's rights.
to align yourself with such a craven, duplicitous,inhuman and vindictive policy against veterans who have rendered loyal service to the Crown, makes you unfit to represent the people of this area.
You show scant regard for morality, decency and ethics.
I would suggest, sir, your government's energies would be better directed against the immigrants, legal and otherwise, who would undermine the fabric of this country.
You have put party politics before honour and integrity. I suggest you take a lead from these Nepalese to whom you do such a grave injustice.
your disaffected constituent.
signed with my real name.


I hope Mr woolas realises the gravy train may hit the buffers over this affair.

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

Sadly, this government are the unfortunates having to carry the can for the decades of abuse by governements of both parties. And I have no doubt tha the current opposition would cheerfully chalk up any Gurkhas admitted to their allegations of open-door immigration policies'- never miss an opportunity to blame the unravelling of something you were at least a 50% contributor to to your opponent, that's polics after oall. Not POLICY - that's not what governement is about - just politics, the bad-mouthing of oponnents who get stuck with the problem on their watch.

Their is an honourablle answer to this one, as we all know. There's just not a political answer any party can afford to sign up to

[nunquamparatus]

Can't we just find where these two MPs live and stick a LF route over the top of their houses until they get the message? A couple of fat alberts and chinooks over their gaffs at 0200 every day for a week should get their attention.

Feel free to have the dump switches made at the same time.

Makes me ashamed to be British - do these cretins not read history books or are they so far up their own arses that they have lost any semblance of humanity?

[cazatou]

FFF

HMG did NOT deport in 1945 the Poles and others who had fought with British Forces in World War 2. They were allowed to remain, if they so wished, in the Country for which they had fought.

The precedent was set then and should be adhered to today.

To put it in context, a total of 57 Allied Squadrons fought as part of the RAF in World War 2:

27 French
13 Polish
4 Czechoslovakian
4 Norwegian
3 Dutch
3 Greek
2 Belgian
1 Yugoslavian

[Biggles225]

Ive just blatted off a grumpogram to Francis Maude, via 'theyworkforyou' in the hope that he will attend the debate today. Im not sure how much the debate will achieve apart from showing the countrys disgust, because this bunch of posstots wont take the slightest notice, they never do unless there is a looming election! Loom loom!
This whole thing is :mad: disgraceful!

By the way I like the idea of the LFA!
BG

[Winch-control]

The contempt of the Government amazes me, especially bearing in mind the potential length of conflict we can expect to endure in the sandpit(s); the impact being mainly on pre-1997 recruits is not lost on me.

Makes you wonder why we dont have more people voting for a democratic government rather than the Brown Martial Law!

[nimblast]

Cazatoe
HMG did NOT deport in 1945 the Poles and others who had fought with British Forces in World War 2. They were allowed to remain, if they so wished, in the Country for which they had fought.

Didn't HMG force the repatriation of the so called white russians at the end of WW2 who were then butchered by the russian goverment.
I'm sure most of them would have remained in the UK, given a choice.

[chippy63]

Thanks, Capewrath,
Now over 190,000. What about a No 10 petition?

[capewrath]

Chippy 63 wrote:-
Thanks, Capewrath,
Now over 190,000. What about a No 10 petition?

All for it if it will help (sceptical about anything that happens in Downing St., it has to be said)

I have emailed the organisers of the Gurkha Justice campaign and asked if there is any special reason why we could not have a No.10 petition in parallel with their petition.

I'll post their response when I receive it.

[Epson Stylus]

Why should we expect the Government to treat the Gurkha's any better or the same as they treat any other ex-soldiers, namely with cynical indifference and ingratitude, just read the appalling statistics of homelessness, alcohol addiction, lack of psychological counselling, that bear witness to the true and continuing sacrifice made by these brave men and women on behalf of Gordon Brown and his cronies; it's national disgrace.

Get it sorted Gordon. At least it will be something good that you have done before you have to hand the keys back to number 10 next year.

[Doctor Cruces]

Just to play devil's advocate and NOT my personal feelings, but as they are not British or Commonwealth citizens and they fight in an army not their own for money, doesn't that, in fact, make them mercenaries? Therefore, no rights as such?

I know little of the legalities regarding this (only through the media and they will only tell what makes a good story regardless of the facts) and if it were up to me I would let them all in. I have worked with some of the Gurkhas when in the Falklands and a finer, nicer bunch of blokes you couldn't want to meet.

I'm sure there will be some rule or regulation that gets round this, but if that were the case, surely it would also confer the rights being fought for.

I would be very interested to read any replies that can "wise me up" in this area.

:confused::confused:

[PPRuNe Pop]

I have just listened PM's question time and Brown was out of touch in my view to the way the Gurkhas are perceived by the people of this country. They are trying to save money and his assessment of £1.4b to have them here made a Nick Clegg and many others angry.

If that is the figure to allow 10,000 to live here wtf does it cost for the 100,000 that illegally enter this country EVERY QUARTER???? Stop that lot and we can integrate the Gurkhas wherever they want!

In answer to the comment above about them being 'mercenaries.' They certainly are not.

They were formed nearly 200 years ago to be a new army regiment under the control of the British Army. That, has never changed.

This might also help GB to understand what he clearly does not. 13 Victoria Cross awards have been won by them and 6,500 seperate awards for bravery is testament to these soldiers.


Gurkhas are well known throughout the world for their professionalism, dedication, discipline, loyalty, integrity and courage in the face of danger. The majority have served on average 20 years with the British Army, stationed worldwide. They adapt to any culture, environment or society where they are called upon to serve.
When the British East India Company tried to expand their trade routes into Nepal and beyond, they encountered the Gurkha’s. They got their name from the Gurkha district of Nepal. These hill men fought the British Army over a number of years, and their respect for each other grew. The British were so impressed by their fighting skills that it was suggested that the Gurkha hill men should be recruited into the Army to form new Battalions made up entirely from their numbers. In March 1816, a treaty was signed signalling a cessation to hostilities. In April of the same year, authorisation to form the first Battalion of Gurkha recruits took place.
The Gurkhas have been part of the British Army for nearly 200 years. During that time, they have fought in every major theatre of war, from the first Afghan war through to Bosnia, the Falklands and more recently Iraq. They have received in all 6,500 decorations for bravery, including 13 Victoria Cross awards. The Gurkha of today retains all the characteristics of his forefathers. He is brave, tough, patient, adaptable, intensely proud and has unswerving loyalty.

To spit in their faces is disgusting. Their treatment by this government is despicable.

Do you think they know that? No way!!!!!!

[cazatou]

PPrune Pop

Having watched the debate it seemed to me that a lot of Labour Backbenchers were uncomfortable - a view confirmed by the result, which was:-

DEFEAT FOR THE GOVERNMENT

:ok::ok::ok:

[airborne_artist]

Indeed - seems Gordon has lost control of his party. Whither the end of his Premiership?

BBC NEWS | Politics | Brown defeated over Gurkha rules (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8023882.stm)

[PPRuNe Pop]

I was 'out of range' at the time the vote was made and now see that that GB and Smith must have swallowed hard when the result was announced.

But, beware of those who would review this in a somewhat different way.

Still, let us hope by now they realise just how much we do respect these Gurhkas and their absolute loyalty to this country. let alone all their other admirable attributes the majority of the younger population would do well to emulate.

Congrats to Joanna Lumley too. A right formidable lady.

[sled dog]

Delighted ! Are there any other ex Britannia fleet people out there still in possesion of a crossed Khukuri pin badge presented to " Brit Det " crews on completion of the Hong Kong - Kathmandu shuttles mid `70s ? i still have mine, early `74 . Out of the UK for many years, appalled at how the " old country " is going down the tube rapidly. Vote Brown out as soon as possible. But will the next lot be any better? :(

[cazatou]

nimblast

I must confess that I am a trifle confused regarding your post. On whose side were these "White Russians" fighting? I must assume that, as they were deported, they were fighting for the Nazis against the United Nations Forces which included the Soviet Union.

I recall that when, in 1993, I did a VIP task to Estonia; the Gentleman from the Interior Ministry who looked after us had spent 10 years in a Soviet Jail because the Germans had controlled Estonia when he was 18 in 1942 and he was conscripted into the German Army. His younger brother fought in the Soviet Army because when he was 18 the Russians controlled Estonia.

I tried "Google" for further information with no success.

[flash8]

An absolutely fantastic result that utterly kicked the government in the teeth. A few more whippings like that and they'll leave office the shameful fraudsters that they are.

It's not often nowadays you can feel proud to be British. But today must rank one of them.

Respects
Flash

[Doctor Cruces]

Brilliant result, let's hope government listens.

[Spymovs]

A good result all round. Well done to those MP's that voted against the Government. As an aside, has anybody noticed that the starter of this thread has spelled Gurkha wrong?

GURHKA COURAGE and LOYALTY ABUSED YET AGAIN! (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/343422-gurhka-courage-loyalty-abused-yet-again-4.html#post4894913)

And I thought Royal Flight Captains prided themselves on their accuracy.;)

[Old Photo.Fanatic]

I feel utterly ashamed at this so called Governments tratment of the Gurhkas.
All I would like to say has allready been voiced .
I recollect my Father who served in India in The 1930's speaking in absolute glowing terms of how the Gurhkas were an example of Tenacity and Courage in every action they undertook.
There pride in their traditions and proud to serve along side the British.

I feel I must also repeat a few of the sentiments so far, to vent my feelings of how I feel.
I find it outragous that a Cost of 1.4 Billion quoted,to accomodate all Gurhkas, was deemed too expensive!!!!!! While at the same time the so called Honourable members are Lining their pockets on the gravy train of Allowances/Expenses, and goodness knows what else .
At the same time handing out wads of money to any Tom,Dick or Harry
who makes it to these Shores who only know a few phrases of English.
EG: I claim asylum/Where's the nearest Benefit Office/ I know my Rights,etc. etc.
( I do not wish to denegrate all "Visitors!! "as I fully accept that there are genuine cases of people who warrent Asylum)

I am just so angry at the Government Culture which has evolved to satisfy minorities every whim, but will play on the Goodwill and Nature of a group like the Gurhkas who are at a disadvantage to fight their case .

I only hope and pray the Gurhkas win through on this one, goodness knows they deserve it.

[chippy63]

But does Broon even know what a VC is?

[Avitor]

Brown will still doggedly insist he is right, it's his make up. He's now telling himself, the vote don't count.

[cockney steve]

I heard that woolyarse had to make a very sheepish public appearance....not quite contrite, but humbled.

Whatever the legal issues,we've abused the loyalty of these people and taken advantage of their impoverished country to exploit them.

Again, playing devil's advocate, paying the same rates as UK domiciled retirees, to Nepal retirees (where ,i think ,the cost of living is about 10% of the UK's) is likely to be divisive and upset the social and economic balance of that country......-for the small cost (in relative terms) those who want to live in this overcrowded, septic isle,should be allowed.......it's already been stated that they have shown true alleigance to the Crown and are not mere Mercenaries.

Their claim is far, far more deserving than the "marriage of convenience" and other entrants with dubious claims.

The rest of the world has always looked up to Great Britain in the past. it will only renew that respect if we are seen to be treating our loyalest allies fairly.

Perish the thought that our government should prejudice that loyalty,or even incur their wrath :ooh:

OTOH, maybe a "Khukri" lesson in a swarthy gentleman's kitchen might concentrate their minds. :}

Kudos to the Labour MP's who put morals above politics. They are to be applauded. :D

[scottpe]

My son serves in a Regiment which counts several Fijians amongst its ranks. I know that Fijians have served for many years in this country's armed forces with great distinction, some with the "hooligans" from the West Country! I believe many have settled in the UK after demob. How do they differ from the Gurkhas, immigration wise? I ask the question purely out of curiosity as I have as much respect for them as I do for the Gurkhas having worked with both, during my time in the mob.
Is it a Commonwealth thing?

[Biggles225]

As my granddaughter would say "REEEEEESULT!" At last honour shows its face in British politics. :ok:

[cazatou]

Spymovs

Thankyou for the spiteful little dig - but it was the Moderator not I who changed the title of the thread; although the new title was my suggestion; also, my computer shows "Gurkha" correctly spelt in the title.

PS There is no "Royal Flight" any more - I was on 32 Sqn for 14 years.

How about you?

PPS I take it that you were referring to "The Queens Flight" .

[Pontius Navigator]

It's not settled yet.

The vote is not binding. According to the telegraph Ministers promised to consider the vote and set out new rules before the summer recess.

[ProM]

Perhaps Pontius, but after this bloody nose do you think Brown has enough bottle for another fight? If he came back and lost again it would probably be seen as a sufficiently damning verdict that his part would start open politicking to remove him. It would be dangerously close to being enough to call for a vote of no confidence IMHO

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Sorry for joining in the Military forum as I'm civvy...

Driving to the shops yesterday we came up behind a fairly scruffy van. On the back was an A4 sheet which looked like the driver had whizzed off on his PC printer. It read:

My country

Scum in

Gurkhas out

My wife and I thought that most adequately summed up the state of our country today...

[autothrottle]

My brother has done several Telic and Herrick tours as a Royal Marine officer. He has nothing but admiration for the Gurkhas,saying their bravery is second to none. He has fourght with these guys. Yesterday was embarrasing not just for Gordon Brown , but for this country. We allow people to stay here who preach hatred, conspire to injur or kill civilians, and live off our state. We allow people like this to stay. Yet this government happily asks these loyal people to fight and die for this country , then tells them to poke off. It is a disgrace beyond words. So yesterday a victory for common sense. This government makes me retch! Their contempt for our armed forces makes me sick to the stomach.

[BEagle]

An excellent result in what must be considered to be an ongoing campaign.

It is obvious that even some nuLabor MPs are disgusted with Grumpy Gordon, Smith and Woolarse. A few more smacks on the snout for this apology for a government and a vote of no confidence won't be far off. Then we can hopefully be rid of them once and for all.

Somewhere I still have the khukri made by a Ghurka from an old Chevrolet lorry spring for my late father during the war; I mentioned this to one of the superb ghurka chaps down at RAF Mount Pleasant and he beamed with pride!

Good to see my MP, the PM-in-waiting, with Joanna Lumley yesterday!

[cazatou]

scottpe

Fiji was part of the British Empire gaining independence on 10 October 1970. As a member of the Commonwealth their citizens are allowed to join British Forces.

Nepal was never part of the British Empire (despite attempts to make it so) and the Gurkha's were originally part of the British Forces in India. With Indian Independence an agreement was reached between the King of Nepal, the British Government and the new Indian Government for some 4 Battalions of Gurkha's to be transferred to the British Army and the remainder transferred to the Indian Army.

To enable both British and Indian Armies to recruit on an equal basis the pay rates were to be identical in both Armies - the Gurkha's in the British Army receiving considerably less than their British counterparts.

[NURSE]

The opposition day motion is non binding to the govt its a shot across the bows, the humiliation to Gordon is superb unfortunatley this could lead to a revenge strike against the Gurkhas espically with the defence re-balancing exercse just getting of the ground.

[Winch-control]

Tha shame of the government with regard to loyal Gurkhas is in huge contrast to the joke I heard on the telly last night:
Swine flu / fever, another win for the Muslims of the world! Especially in the UK.
Politically incorrect I am sure but in my opinion true none the less, (If I were still be allowed an opinion), except it was broadcast on a western TV network in Oz!

[scottpe]

Cazatou, many thanks for your informative reply. I had a feeling it had something to do with belonging to the Commonwealth. Incidentally I spent a short period of time on 32 Sqn, by default, after the demise of 46 at Thorney!

[cazatou]

BBC Ceefax are reporting:-

"No 10 has denied it snubbed requests from Joanna Lumley for a meeting with the PM over the right of Gurkhas to settle in the UK. Ms Lumley said she wrote 3 letters to Mr Brown over the case but none were acknowledged.

No 10 said all letters were acknowledged and Ms Lumley was offered a meeting with the Home Secretary."

I know which one I believe - how about you?

PS Does the Home Secretary not have a problem with the issue of "multiple claims" and Blue Movies?

[cockney steve]

Today, 6th of May, Joanna Lumley, the delightful actress who has made this cause her own, has been to a meeting with "Mc Stupid Cyclops"
AKA the Prime Minister.
She was very upbeat about the meeting and Mc Broon has "promised" to table new proposals BY THE END OF THE MONTH. :ok:

[Flash2001]

The British Army sends (or used to send) regular recruiting missions to Fiji.

After an excellent landing you can use the airplane again!

[mtoroshanga]

I find it hard to stomach that while this business with the Gurkhas is going on we have clowns campaigning for an amnesty for illegal immigrants already in the country. For God's sake get them out and replace them with people who have proved their worth.
In fact why not make it a requirement for immigrants (and MPs) to serve in the forces for a period prior to admittance to the UK. This would give opertunity to weed out the undesirables.

[cazatou]

mtoroshanga

Why should we dilute the effectiveness of our Professional Armed Forces in order to help potential immigrants bypass normal immigration procedures and gain entry to the UK?

[Biggles225]

I watched the select comittee proceedings on Tuesday and where I wasnt swearing was cringing when some searching questions were replied to with party line replies offered by Woolarse and the MoD! It was obvious hed been up all night practising his speech in the bathroom mirror, and on the face of his comments, nothing will change and we will be back to 'Dont confuse me with facts, my minds made up' staus quo.

So, despite a valiant campaign, and the government losing the vote in the house, nothing will change. This is truly disgraceful, and as Joanna Lumley pointed out there is nowhere left for them to go. Personally, and regardless of protocol, I'd try the palace, nothing to lose now!

As to parliamentary respect and esteem for the armed forces, an ex colleague said as we were watching live PMQs and one of McBroons 'mourning the loss of ...' statements - 'Thank you for your support, I shall wear it always!'
(I believe stolen from the Goon Show, but I felt it appropriate)
:ugh:
BG

[cazatou]

Back to the top.

BBC text service is reporting that 4 out of 5 test cases for Gurkha residency have been rejected in what campaigners said was a "shocking and devastating development".

What, I wonder, is Mr Brown going to do about it?

[Airborne Aircrew]

What, I wonder, is Mr Brown going to do about it?

Sweet Fanny Adams... He has no interest in anything that is not on his agenda regardless if every voting man and woman in the UK put their "X" in the box right in front of him... He'd still procrastinate in the hope that Jade Goody will come back to life or some other equally important news will divert attention from the issue. :rolleyes:

[Pete268]

It is not only the Gurkha's that this government is cra&&ing on from a great height, very recent changes to the War Pensions Scheme mean War Disablement Pensioners could now lose over £90 per week of their War Pensions should they be so unfortunate to fall ill and need to claim Incapacity Benefit (or the new fangled Employment and Support Allowance- ESA).

The changes were 'sneaked' in with the annual meagre uprating of War Pensions by Statutory Instrument and came into effect from the 6th April 2009. It means in future, War Pensioners who claim the 'Allowance for Lowered Standard of Occupation' (ALSO) and whether due to their accepted condition or a non connected accident/illness, become too ill to continue their post service employment, even short term, they will lose this allowance should they need to put in a claim for Incapacity Benefit/ESA. Previously War Pensioners could keep this allowance if claiming Incapacity Benefit/ESA and it was quite often increased as ones earnings had in effect dropped.

As in order to maintain ones National Insurance Contribution record when sick, one does need to claim Incapacity Benefit/ESA, then it does have quite serious financial implications for War Pensioners. Particularly when one realises that in order to claim the Allowance for Lowered Standard of Occupation, one needs an accepted percentage disability of at least 40%, so we are looking at some quite seriously disabled former servicemen/women and who, despite their injuries, have managed to get/stay in post service employment.

As an example of these changes, for a 40% disabled War Pensioner, who receives the maximum 'ALSO' allowance (due to low post service earnings) if he/she becomes too ill to work, it can mean not only do they lose their normal earnings (and get for at least 13 weeks only £64.30 per week ESA in exchange) but also lose upto £91.44 per week from their overall War Pension (a double whammy in effect).

Quite why this has been changed (and why in particularly at this moment in time) I have no idea. However I have my suspicions and although the government frequently refer to the doubling of payments under the newer Armed Forces Compensation Scheme, I bet they do not shout from the rooftops about this disgusting change that affects 'old scheme' War Pensioners, ie those from WW2, The Falklands, Northern Ireland, Gulf War 1 etc.

The Statutory Instrument enacting this change to Article 15 of the Service Pensions Order 2006 is here by the way:
The Naval, Military and Air Forces Etc. (Disablement and Death) Service Pensions (Amendment) Order 2009 No. 706 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/uksi_20090706_en_1)

Perhaps a passing journo may like to pick up this issue. I am sure with the recent publicity on the Gurkha issue, should the public realise that those who have fought in past campaigns are now getting shafted, then it will be another nail in the coffin of this government.

[Biggles225]

It strikes me that this government not only bangs the nails in its own coffin, but it also shovels the dirt on top! Good trick eh?
Disgusted of Cambridge

[Wader2]

Pete, the only bit of that link I understood was:

Her Majesty considers it expedient to amend the Naval, Military and Air Forces Etc. (Disablement and Death) Service Pensions Order 2006(1 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/uksi_20090706_en_1#f00001)).

I bet she did.

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

I see another Gurkha soldier (or in UK Gov terms perhaps that should read 'problematic would-be immigrant') has made the ultimate sacrifice for our country in Afghanistan.

Another nail in the disgraceful UK Gov policy, but tragically at cost of a full complement of nails in the young man's own.

May he rest in peace, with the respect and gratitude of us all.

[Airborne Aircrew]

May he rest in peace, with the respect and gratitude of us all.

Bet he won't be allowed to be buried in the UK either...Cost too much... :rolleyes:

[thedonnmeister]

BBC news say its two Gurkhas, however the MOD says one. RIP to everyone who gave everything. :suspect:

[November4]

MOD site now saying

"One soldier from the Royal Gurkha Rifles and one member of the Royal Military Police killed in Afghanistan"

That makes 4 soldiers killed in 3 days...RIP....editted as it was 4 soldiers on 1 day

[Double Zero]

Very sorry to hear about another 4 dead today, no matter what the Ghurka contingent.

If it's true that Ms Lumley 'pulled a fast one' by claiming G.Brown "had promised her" a rethink on the Ghurkas when he may not have, that was a masterly stroke which even a politician will have trouble reversing out of.

I'm not a fan of ANY politicians - people here seem to have short memories about the forces' treatment under the Tories - but I might be convinced to vote for Joanna Lumley.

[cazatou]

" People here seem to have short memories about the Forces treatment under the Tories".

If you wish to make Political Statements then do it on a thread devoted to that purpose. I have long memories about the Forces treatment under Governments of both Persuasions. I remember the then CAS asking me on a flight what I thought about the new Tory Government in 1979 giving the Forces the other 14 % deferred by the Labour Government from the 31 % Pay rise which the Pay Review Body had recommended. We had a RN Lt Cdr on 32 Sqn whose children were getting free School meals because his income was so low.

We can all produce statistics to reinforce our our point of view on Politics - this is not the Forum in which to air them.

[Chugalug2]

Double Zero:

If it's true that Ms Lumley 'pulled a fast one' by claiming G.Brown "had promised her" a rethink on the Ghurkas when he may not have, that was a masterly stroke which even a politician will have trouble reversing out of.


I suspect that spinning rather than pulling was in play, and from the other end of the wicket at that. Might account for the determined way that she ambushed the hapless Woolas and dragooned him into eye contact confirmation of a full review of Gurkha Rights of Residence, an agreed date for that, and favourable treatment of the 1500 appeals. Absolutely fabulous! Wonderful if she could extend her interests to all HM Forces, in particular those that Pete286 instances above. Is there no limit to the depths to which these minions will descend when dealing with servicemen and women? Shameful apparatchiks, yet devoid of all shame.

[cazatou]

PPrunePop

Thankyou

:ok:

[PPRuNe Pop]

Guys, please stay on topic. Drifting off begets replies not wanted.

[Winch-control]

Gurkha, 87, who won the VC returns war medals to Downing Street after being refused free hospital care



By Daily Mail Reporter (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Daily+Mail+Reporter)
Last updated at 4:46 PM on 25th June 2008

Comments (10) (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1029303/Gurkha-87-won-VC-returns-war-medals-Downing-Street-refused-free-hospital-care.html#comments)
Add to My Stories (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1029303/Gurkha-87-won-VC-returns-war-medals-Downing-Street-refused-free-hospital-care.html)


A Gurkha awarded the highest military award for gallantry in the face of the enemy was at the forefront of a demonstration today to promote the rights of more than 2,000 of the soldiers to stay in Britain.
Tul Bahadur Pun VC, 87, a Second World War veteran who is now in a wheelchair, delivered a boardful of medals, including an MBE, to Downing Street in protest over the treatment of Gurkha soldiers.

A London hospital refused to treat him for his heart condition, claiming he owed thousands of pounds in unpaid medical bills.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/25/article-1029303-01BD20FA00000578-187_468x725.jpg
Disgust: Gurkha Regimental Sergeant Major Pun Tulbahadur returns his medals to Downing Street.



And Rightly so! How disgracefull!.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Maybe one of our moraly stagnant MPs could put Mr Pun's expenses through on their own expense accounts. They seem to be able to bleed us all dry for everything else these days.

:mad::mad::mad:

[Winch-control]

Ghurkas launch High Court battle over pay


Add to My Stories (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-113422/Ghurkas-launch-High-Court-battle-pay.html)
Ex-Gurkhas were today launching a High Court battle against the Government, claiming they have suffered racial discrimination with pay and conditions worse than those of other British soldiers.
In a human rights challenge which could cost the Ministry of Defence £2 billion, lawyers will argue in 20 test cases that the famed Nepalese fighters serving with the British Army retired on inadequate pensions.
Today their legal team, which is led by Prime Minister's wife Cherie Booth QC, was lodging papers at the High Court in London, but there will be no actual hearing in court.
The test case applications will go before a judge within the next few weeks to decide whether the Gurkhas have an "arguable case" to justify a full application for judicial review at a later date.
Since the 1947 Triparite Agreement between India, Nepal and the UK, their recruitment into the Army has been regulated by that agreement.
It is argued that the agreement links the remuneration of Gurkhas, who have fought for the British for almost 200 years, to the Indian Army's pay code, resulting in a crucial disparity in the payment of salaries and pensions between the Gurkhas and other British troops.
Gurkha lawyers say that, as a result, over 30,000 men retired from service without any pension, or adequate pension, and suffered dire poverty as a result.
They say many wives have not been fairly compensated for the loss of husbands due to military service, and many families still do not know what has happened to their husbands and sons.
Padam Gurung, president of the Gurkha Army Ex-Servicemen Association, said: "The Gurkhas have been loyal servants of the British for 196 years, and have lost between 50,000 and 60,000 lives.
"All we ask is not to be treated as inferior human beings and to suffer discrimination.
"We want recognition that we have fought loyally as British soldiers and demand only the same rights.

Why deny them?

[cazatou]

I was a trifle worried when I changed (with the agreement of the Moderator) the title of this thread; I thought I may have overstepped the mark.

I failed to take into account the ability of the current UK Government to incapacitate itself with self inflicted wounds.

:ugh:

[cazatou]

Further to the above post; I see that the BBC are reporting that the Widow of Cpl Kumar Pun (killed in Afghanistan) was visited by a "jobsworth" the day after his death and informed that she and her family had "no right to stay in UK.

Let us not "shoot the messenger" - the fault is in Government Policy and its implementation.

[Winch-control]

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith blamed for humiliating Gurkhas defeat in the commons.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/04/30/article-1175778-048930DC000005DC-705_233x333.jpg Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has been blamed for the Government's Commons defeat over the Gurkhas

Blame for the Government's humiliating Commons defeat over the Gurkhas was laid squarely on Jacqui Smith last night.
Labour MPs openly criticised the beleaguered Home Secretary's bungling of a vote on giving retired soldiers and their families the right to live in Britain.
She was accused of failing to persuade around 100 backbenchers to oppose a Liberal Democrat motion which called for immigration rules to be scrapped for thousands of the veterans.
As a result, Gordon Brown's dwindling authority was dealt another heavy blow when his Government suffered a crushing 21-vote defeat.
Twenty-seven Labour rebels voted with the opposition and dozens more abstained.
The vote on Wednesday was not binding on the Government, but the Prime Minister was forced to order a climbdown by announcing a review of the rules, which restrict the right of up to 36,000 Gurkhas to settle in the UK.
The crisis arose after the High Court ruled last year that it was unlawful to prevent Gurkhas who had served in the British Army before 1997 from living here.
Their comrades who served later are allowed in because the Nepalese regiment has been based in Britain since 1997. Before then it was in Hong King.

After months of dragging their feet Ministers finally unveiled new guidelines last week - and campaigners immediately complained that they would open the door to only 100 Gurkha veterans who were war heroes or had been badly injured.

[Double Zero]

I can't help thinking one SHOULD shoot the messenger, then work one's way up...and, Cazatou, this was not even mentioned when the Tories kept the status quo going; I'm not pro' this lot either, but get your facts right. End.


OOPs that was merely coining a popular phrase about the messenger, like " here's my expenses chit, the one with all the zero's on the end " ; does that mean I'm going to be deported ?

[cazatou]

DZ

This Government has been in power since the General Election of 1st May 1997 - the year that the Gurkha Brigade re-located from Hong Kong to UK.

[Double Zero]

Yes,

tell me something I don't know...

At least we agree that the Ghurkas deserve infinitely better treatment; come to that housing for British Services generally is a total disgrace even if one is counted worthy of living here.

One would have thought putting one's life on the line would have merited decent if not special treatment.

DZ

[cazatou]

"At least we agree that the Gurkha's deserve infinitely better treatment"

Yes, that is why I initiated this thread!!

:ugh:

[PPRuNe Pop]

The post by winch control, which I have deleted, appears to be a 'copy' of what Joanna Lumley has written to those of us who joined the campaign!

At this stage the campaign is being fought and, we hope, near to being won. Inputs like his serve no real purpose in the light of those supreme efforts.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Reported in The Daily Telegraph today:

Victory for Joanna Lumley as all Gurkhas to be given right to settle in Britain

All Gurkha veterans will be given the same right to settle in Britain, ministers will announce on Thursday.

The statement will confirm a significant political victory for campaigners led by the actress Joanna Lumley.

Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, is expected to signal the new policy in the Commons today, with a formal statement from the Home Office on Thursday.
The Prime Minister earlier this month suffered a humiliating Commons defeat when Labour MPs voted with the Opposition to condemn immigration rules that curb the number of Gurkha pensioners allowed to settle in the UK.

The vote followed a growing chorus of public and political anger against Government refusals to allow Gurkhas who retired before 1997 to settle freely in Britain.
The Daily Telegraph launched a campaign calling for them to be admitted, with an online petition attracting hundreds of supporters in only a few hours.

Ministers, officials and lawyers were last night still working on the precise detail of the new policy. But sources said that the new rules will be enough to satisfy the central claim of Gurkha campaigners like Miss Lumley.
Government lawyers have warned that extending settlement rights to the oldest Gurkhas risks setting a legal precedent that could give the foreign veterans of other wars – such as the Second World War and Korea – a chance to claim residency in Britain.

In particular, ministers fear that the descendents of Gurkhas and other veterans could claim residency rights, and tomorrow's statement is likely to contain careful restrictions on the rights of Gurkha relatives and dependents.

"It has to be managed, but they will be able to settle," said one source last night.

The statement comes amid continued pressure on the Prime Minsiter over the issue, with a call by a powerful group of MPs for settlement rights to all Gurkha veterans.
The Home Affairs Select Committee also called for immediate settlement rights for the 1,400 outstanding applications which have been held in limbo during the row.
The chairman of the committee, Keith Vaz, wrote to Mr Brown last night following a private meeting with the Gurkha campaign group, including Miss Lumley, and Government officials.

He accused the Government of "overblowing" estimates that up to 100,000 former Gurkhas and families would come to Britain if rights were granted to all.

Officials admitted at the very most it would only be 84,000 while the campaigners put it at between 10,000 and 35,000, the letter said.

It revealed the Government has also now revised the cost to the taxpayer of such a move from the previous estimate of £1.4 billion to £3-400 million. Gurkha groups consider that it will actually be in the region of £50 million.

The letter added that many of the Gurkhas would be of net benefit to the country as they would work and pay taxes.
Campaigners expect around 15,000 main applicants if rights are offer to all and the Home Office estimated that would take up to two years to process.

The committee added they found no evidence that such a move would affect recruitment in Nepal or its economy or create a legal precedent for those from other Commonwealth countries who have served in the armed forces.


The letter concluded: "We believe that Britain has a moral debt of honour to the Brigade of Gurkhas and that this can be realised along the lines suggested here."

And about time too. If ever justice was needed this case was THE one.

[Chugalug2]

Well let's hope so, PPRuNe Pop, but we all have enough experience now with this government to keep counting the spoons. Let us see what Thursday brings and then express a verdict. Personally my position has always been that all Gurkhas that have served, and their dependents, should have the right to settle here and I hope that is what will be announced.

[cazatou]

So the Home Office are going to work "Flat Out" and process 30 applications a working day?

[November4]

Breaking news....all ex Gurkha's with more than 4 years service will be eligible to apply to remain in the UK.

Excellent news but they still have to apply....hope the application will be little more than a formality.

[ZH875]

Ms Smith told MPs she was "proud to offer this country's welcome to all who have served in the brigade of Gurkhas".

At least this news takes the highlight off our shambolic Home Secretary.


If she was proud, the public outcry would not have been needed.

Maybe MP's could rent their second homes to Ghurkas and claim more expenses than before.......


WELCOME to all Ghurkas.

[BEagle]

An excellent result! Well done, Joanna!

[Chugalug2]

Of all the injustices that cried out for resolving by this government this ranked amongst the most pressing. As Joanna Lumley so eloquently announced just now Right Has Been Done, at last. Well done to her and everyone responsible for lifting this blight on our honour.

[BEagle]

All those who signed the petition will now have received an e-mail with a link to the "Aren't we so wonderful" nuLabor petition response:

For many years, the Brigade of Gurkhas have shown bravery, commitment and dedication in serving this country, and continue to do so on operations today.

This Government has done more for Gurkhas than any other. It was the first Government to grant settlement to Gurkhas and the first to equalise pay and pensions, with over 6,000 former Gurkhas and their families already given the right to live in the UK. In April we took steps to increase the number of Gurkhas eligible to come to this country by 4,000 or, including families, 10,000 people.

The House of Commons has now expressed a clear view that all Gurkhas should be entitled to settle in the United Kingdom if that is what they wish.

This Government respects the will of the House of Commons and recognises the strong feeling and public support for this cause. Consequently, we have announced today that all former Gurkhas who served for longer than four years will be eligible to apply for settlement in the United Kingdom. They will also be entitled to bring their spouses and dependent minor children. There will be no time limit on applications.

This scheme recognises the unique nature of the service given to the UK by the Brigade of Gurkhas and is offered to them on an exceptional basis.

We believe that in announcing the new policy today, we have met their concerns and those of Parliament.

They would not have done this without public pressure and the efforts of Joanna Lumley in particular........

[PPRuNe Pop]

Absolutely right BEags! She has championed their cause with a strength of purpose that is worth a medal. Dame Joanna Lumley will sit well with many and maybe she might finish in the honorary ranks of the Brigade.

Some woman. Well done from PPRuNe ma'am.

[skua]

Was just thinking the same thing. It would be one of the fitting ends to this saga if DC were to push through her damehood when he gets hold of the reins of power. Or even Lady Lumley, so she could raise the moral integrity of the HoL by several notches!

Skua

[cazatou]

As the originator of this thread, I trust I may be entitled to add my twopenny worth.

The wording of significance in the announcement is that they will be "Eligible to apply for settlement". There does not appear to be any reference to "entitlement".

What is needed is a commitment on behalf of HMG that those who have fought for the "Crown" have an unequivicable right to residence in the UK or its dependancies.

"Eligible to apply for settlement" is not the same as "entitlement".

[airsound]

Joanna Lumley reminded us today that she is a 'daughter of the regiment' - and she suggested that what she is most proud of is that Tul Bahadur Pun, VC, had claimed her as his daughter.

airsound

[Lightning Mate]

Joanna Lumley, honorary Colonel, Gurkha Regiment.

Regiment Commanding Officer please NB. Anyone else care to contribute to the cost of her uniform?

I always liked blondes..........and she's my age.........

Dinner Joanna?

[GreenKnight121]

As a Yank, I knew nothing of her, but 'daughter of the regiment' is absolutely right.

Joanna Lamond Lumley was born on 1 May 1946 in Srinagar, in the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir. Her parents were Major James Rutherford Lumley, who served in the 6th Gurkha Rifles, a regiment of the British Indian Army, and Beatrice Rose Weir.