Oxygen now needed above FL100

[Fright Level]

A discussion item in my IR renewal today was the change to the ANO that requires all flight crew to be on oxygen above FL100. Gone are the days where you'd get a 30 minute segment up to FL130 that served me well for one hour sectors down to the Channel Islands or near France.

CAP393 54(7) refers.

[5 Greens]

That changed at least 10 years ago or more!

[niknak]

More to the point, it's generally accepted that the effects of hypoxia begin at 8000ft and above.
Why witter on about rules and regulations when common sense should prevail?:ugh:

[Fright Level]

That changed at least 10 years ago or more!

Sorry, bad info. 54A still applies for non public transport flights. I'm happy at FL130 for 30 mins in daylight VMC.

[vanHorck]

i bet you re happy then!

A snooze too? why not, everything is hunkydory!

I did a long flight last year, from Bucharest to Jerez and back mostly at FL130. Had a copilot, old and not bold but he refused my oxygen. He dozed away at least 3 times in 22 hours of flight, that s bad odds....

Seriously, an O2 pulse system is not uncomfortable (no dry nose) and a life saver

Why dispute what scientists have long established!?

Bold pilot or old pilot, think of it!

[Pace]

its the faa who allow unlimited up to 12500 feet 30 minutes 12500 to 14000. Above 14000 oxygen all the time and passengers on oxygen at and above 15000. Thought JAA WAS 10000 for everyone ?

Must be Europeans cannot tolerate the USA oxygen levels? Also its not 8000 feet but 5000 feet where changes occur first with eyesight at night.

I know pilots who will fly at 17000 feet so 10000 feet must be conservative.

Depends on how fit you are? Whether you smoke? how tired you are etc.

Pace

[vanHorck]

yes it depends on fitness, but why take that risk? The symptoms are all hindered by a feel good factor.

You can notice it by trying to remember what you still know of flights high up or lower down. You may find there are gaps about your time high up

[S-Works]

As someone who spends considerable time between 10-18k on Oxygen I have spent some time analysing peoples response to oxygen starvation for various articles (a section in the upcoming PPL/IR book is worth reading).

i have monitored Oxygen saturation levels and arousal in passengers and to be frank at 10,000ft a normal adult will show around the high 80's in Sats without oxygen over an hour or so judgement will start to be slightly impaired and arousal and response levels will fall. At 13,000ft the Sats will be in the mid 70,s and judgement is very impaired.

I always use O2 at 10,000ft and above by day and 8,000ft in the cruise by night.

Also JAA rules require all flights above 10,000ft to use o2 for the crew and have never had the rules quoted above to my knowledge. I think what is being quoted is the requirement to carry supplementary O2 in pressurised aircraft.

[chrisN]

I am not an expert, but my understanding is that almost all research into oxygen needs has been carried out on fit young people in the armed services. Elderly, unfit, overweight civilian pilots are probably little, if at all, researched. My take on it is that individuals are likely to vary, but few if any will be better adapted to high flying that those on whom the research is based.

Flying a glider at altitude, I have found since my late 50s that, although I could quickly ascend to 12,000 or 13,000 feet without feeling any ill effects if I then also came down quickly, if I spent any extended time above about 7500 feet, I noticed my breathing was becoming a physical and not unconscious effort. Consequently, I use oxygen above 7500 feet if I’m going to stay there for any length of time.

I have been told that below about 15,000 feet, symptoms of anoxia can be detected by the pilot and reacted to, whereas above that height, the first feeling is one of euphoria and sensible decisions are unlikely to be made. I don’t know if this is still the received wisdom, and in any case it was no doubt based as above on the young, fit, etc. research subjects.

Chris N.

[Pace]

>its the faa who allow unlimited up to 12500 feet 30 minutes 12500 to 14000. Above 14000 oxygen all the time and passengers on oxygen at and above 15000.<

It would be interesting to know why the FAA stipulate the above while the Europeans are more conservative?

What do both groups base their requirements on? I will regulary use FL110 or FL120 depending on direction in airways and the QNH compared to FLs in unpressurised twins although carrying oxygen it is usefull to take periodic minutes on oxygen.

Pace

[Katamarino]

I can confirm that the FAA stipulate 12,500 as the maximum altitude for continuous flight without additional oxygen, and above that for limited periods. I flew at or above 12,500 a fair amount on a recent trip around the US in a Skyhawk without additional oxygen and didn't notice any ill effect, although it was never for longer than a couple of hours. What may also have helped was the acclimatisation effect - when you've been flying in and out of airports at 8000ft AMSL, and camping at said fields, you are already acclimatised to higher altitudes - I'm sure if flying straight up there from sea level that the effects would be more pronounced.

[SkyHawk-N]

It would be interesting to know why the FAA stipulate the above while the Europeans are more conservative?

In the US West and Midwest there are large numbers of people living at high altitudes. Flying in many parts of Wyoming, for example, at 2,000ft AGL means that you are actually flying at 8,500+ ft AMSL (that's without taking DA into account). If the FAA lowered the required level it would mean that everyone flying GA in many of the higher areas of Colorado, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah (and others) would require to be constantly on additional oxygen.

[jez d]

Fright Level,

If you're concerned about the extra cost involved, then you might be pleasantly suprised to learn than you can get a complete system for around £250. See www.mhoxygen.com (http://www.mhoxygen.com)

That's not much money for peace of mind, in my opinion.

jez

[Contacttower]

It would be interesting to know why the FAA stipulate the above while the Europeans are more conservative?

Despite having less conservative rules for oxygen the FAA recommends the use of oxygen above 10,000ft by day and 5,000ft at night.

[Islander2]

A discussion item in my IR renewal today was the change to the ANO that requires all flight crew to be on oxygen above FL100. Gone are the days where you'd get a 30 minute segment up to FL130 that served me well for one hour sectors down to the Channel Islands or near France. Sorry, bad info. 54A still applies for non public transport flights. Also JAA rules require all flights above 10,000ft to use o2 for the crew and have never had the rules quoted above to my knowledge. I think what is being quoted is the requirement to carry supplementary O2 in pressurised aircraft.Illustrative of a good deal of confusion all around, I believe!

Whereas the UK ANO has long stipulated the requirement for the flight crew of unpressurised, G-reg public transport flights to use oxygen whenever flying above FL100, prior to March 2007 there was no similar legal requirement for the crew of a non-public-transport flight to use (or even carry) oxygen equipment, regardless of altitude!

Statutory Instrument No 274 changed that position.

In unpressurised G-reg aeroplanes flying other than for the purpose of public transport, it became a legal necessity in March 2007 (brand new Article 54A, ANO) for the flight crew to use oxygen for any time in excess of 30 minutes above FL100, and for all the time spent above FL130.

At the same time (and in not exactly a consistent manner!), the UK ANO - Schedule 4 was altered to require unpressurised G-reg non-public-transport flights to be provided with oxygen equipment for any flight at 13,000 ft AMSL or more.

[scooter boy]

Irrespective of what the rules say I agree with several previous posters that common sense should prevail here.

Over 10000' the O2 goes on, simple as that.

I begin to notice subtle effects of hypoxia at about this altitude (try doing some of the simple in flight mental arithmetic we need to do on a long flight - it aint so easy). My sats are in the 80s at 10K and I can really feel the benefit after a few deep breaths of O2.

Cannulae have changed the comfort of O2 for me, wearing a mask was sweaty and eating/drinking while wearing one was awkward.

Save the brain cells and put the oxygen on early.

SB

[JohnGV]

Sky Hawk,

Just a quick one, here in canada, the rules are stricter than in the states! You can only fly 30 mins between 10,000 + 13,000 without oxygen and above 13,000 you must have oxygen.

Now I can assure you, canada has terrain at MUCH higher altitudes, with GA aircraft operating from them.

also, the term flight levels (which have been used by a few in this thread) are used for pressure altitudes and areas where there are no altimeter settings available, or above 18,000ft, when you have your altimeter set to standard (29.92).

So why dont we stick with thousands of feet hey??!!

[dublinpilot]

So why dont we stick with thousands of feet hey??!!

Because flight levels start much much much lower in Europe, were most of us here are based ;) Can be as low as FL030 ;)

[JohnGV]

Dublin pilot,

Oh ok, Well there's the difference hey. Apologies!:uhoh:

Would it be primarily IFR flight in Europe where the term FL would be used or VFR as well - especially at that hieght?!:confused:

Cheers

[BackPacker]

Would it be primarily IFR flight in Europe where the term FL would be used or VFR as well - especially at that hieght?!

VFR as well. I regularly fly aerobatics in controlled airspace (class E) where I request a block "between three thousand feet and flight level five five".

It's a real bugger to readjust the altimeter every time you go through the TA/TL, particularly when inverted, pulling high g's and so forth, but that's the law...:ok: