Will Sunwing last?

[Pardes]

What are your thoughts about Sunwing? Will it last? Or be the next Zoom...

[remarkablebean]

With XL hitting the deck, the general feeling is no-one's safe - but if you look at XL's finances, they weren't that great, and it was simply a matter of time before the house of cards came falling down. On the other hand, FlyBE over in the UK is a success story...so it's not all gloom and doom...

Sunwing's been around for 20 years near as dammit, and insists their financial position is sound. They're even scooping up ex-Zoomers for cabin and flight deck.

Anyone got some concrete information on Sunwing's viability in terms of T/O, cash-at-hand etc ?

[richardhead]

Concrete information? This is aviation remember. The only constant is that everything changes daily.

[er340790]

Does Canada adopt similar rules to the UK with package tour 'get you home' guarantees and credit card refunds, but zero coverage for cash / debit card ticket purchases?

As Zoom and XL proved, it would be a brave person who shells out the latter for tickets in the present environment.

[J.O.]

In Ontario, Sunwing's home province, all package tour companies are members of a travel industry group called TICO and they pay premiums to provide coverage to their customers in the event of a default on the part of the tour company or the airline.

[Speedboat]

Tico makes it easy for airlines like Sunwing to run the entire operation on advance bookings. When they go banco, and they will, everyone else helps to cover off the losses and inconvenience suffered by consumers.

The best insurance is for the airline itself to have, and be able to prove to the public that they have enough cash over and above advance bookings to pay for 60 days operations.

In any event, an increasing number of agencies are no longer booking Sunwing. They all know what has happened in the past to airlines that consistently charge half of the going rate.

Banco.

:ok:

[imp]

I am getting so sick and tired of this garbage I keep reading. I can't even believe that I am responding anymore, but I simply cannot understand how you think that a thread like this is productive.

There are real people with real jobs involved and spreading this crap about Sunwing is infuriating.

What ever happened to going to work and doing the best job you can to make your company successful? Loitering around aviation forums and trying to stir the pot regarding another's job is weak.

Half the going rate? What are you talking about? Yes, Sunwing is cheaper than Sunquest and WJ Vacations, but certainly not by half. Why is that?

Sunquest wet-leases Skyservice. Every price that one out? It is pretty expensive to charter an airplane, that is why Sunwing got their own. It saves money.

How about WJ or AC Vacations? Here is a news flash, Sunwing is the largest tour operator in Cuba by far. Therefore they get a much better rate from the hotels and can pass that along to the consumer.

Speedboat, you don't have a clue what you are talking about and that is evident from the fact that you keep referring to Sunwing as an airline. It is not an airline, it is a 25 year old tour operator that leases planes for the winter season based on lift requirements.

I cannot believe that you signed off with a thumbs up after predicting Sunwing will go "banco". Grow up, I truly hope you never have to go through a layoff or shutdown.

[Rubberbiscuit]

.... not only are you a disgrace to you collegees at WJ. I have many many good friends at WJ and they would be sickened by knowing one of their own authored the above post. Putting a thumbs up to Sunwing going bankrupt? Did we fire you? Did you not get through the hiring process? You have obviously developed a serious grudge and sound an awefull lot like someone that keep posting anti-sunwing rederic on avcanada. I know it is only a forum and people can express what they want... but will say it is easy to be an inconsiderate coward and hide behind a fake identity on a forum. I have had the rug pulled out from underneath me with and without warning it is not a pleasent experience.. it is hard on the whole family... a lot of stress and uncertainty. I don't wish that on my worst enemy.

My philosophy is to not post anything I would not put my name too. Theses forums would certainly be alot more positive place to visit if everyone had that attitude. If posters such as Speedboat was forced to put there real name out there I doubt the above mentioned post would excist

[remarkablebean]

I agree with Rubberbiscuit...from one who has faced an uncertain future in the past, we should show a good deal more humility and refrain from posting irreverend remarks about the real or perceived belly flop of an outfit where human beings are employed, who rely on their salary to keep afloat and provide for their loved ones.

Everyone who's a real person in the industry, wouldn't wish harm on SWG or anyone else for that matter. Sure, ask questions and debate, but seemingly wishing for a major fall, is a bit wide of the mark. Let's all hope SWG's, TSC's, SSV's, WSJ's etc. financial management is way better than XL's and Z4's, and we can all weather the credit crunch storm on its way.

I've been there myself - staring into space wondering what the hell happened before getting back onto my feet and back into the pointy end - a bit like some posting on the Ryanair thread - different topic but same flavour - unless you have experienced job loss through no fault of your own, you have NO idea what it's like...so button it.

[levantes]

I totaly agree with the previous posting! Nobody wants to be in such a situation.
Personally though, I consider Sunwing scavengers!
The vehicle of creating seasonal pilots in Europe!:yuk:
Having said that, I have nothing against their pilots and I wish them all the best!

[R8TED THRUST]

"Seasonal Pilots in Europe"

Last time I checked SWG and SKY have European pilots in the winter... It is reciprocated!

[Rubberbiscuit]

levantes & remarkable bean:

Thanks for your vote of support. I have no idea how long Sunwing will last, nobody does as it is a private, closed book operation. I just don't understand where people get off seeing fellow aviators worlds turned upside down by loosing their jobs.

The seasonal pilot issue has long been a sensitive one. r8ted thrust is however right, it goes both ways. It saves 2 companies in a mutual agreement from laying off for six months every year and hence keep the EI lineup shorter.

[levantes]

Was Sunwing pilots getting paid the same as XL and vice-versa?
Two different groups of pilots, different T&C's, leverage for the management to cut pay!
How can you defend your T&C's?
Sunwing pilots will support me in case of an industrial action?
I think not!
If I try to get rid of the foreign pilots and I will probably conceed to the demands of the management in return?
In both cases I lose because a second group of pilots in the same company is the Trojan Horse to any collective agreement or contract!
Hope you get my point!
And another thing! 6 months here and 6 months there, not the best thing when raising a family!
Back in the 90's there was a rule about fleet expansion in the charters! The number of aircraft you can sustain in the low season determines the number of aircraft you use in the high season!
That's wise planning!

[Rubberbiscuit]

I do see your point to a certain extent, and I am guessing you already know the answer to most of the questions you posed. First of all Sunwing pilots work under Sunwing T & Cs while on deployment. I understand the airplanes/crews are wetleased so that is the way it has to be for many reasons. I don't know what the T &Cs are for the companies that lease Sunwing crews and airplanes nor do I care. Why? I was hired by Sunwing under the Sunwing T & Cs and I understood that where ever I find myself I was will be a Sunwing employee, and the conditions I am employed uner is more than fair. I guess what you are trying to say is that wetleasing aircraft/crew brings down the T/C's of your or any company they operate for in Europe? Not sure I see how that could be. Sunwing T&C's are on par with Canadian standards and cost of living in Canada are in a different league from Europe (I am guessing 25 - 50% less depending on where in Europe you are) so I don't see how Sunwing's less attractive T&C would be an excuse for management to cut wages in Europe. Also, by the time the extra expenses associated with wet leasing are said and done I am not so sure there is a whole lot of savings to be had. Where the savings probably lie is in not having to hire and train/retrain crews every spring. We all know it is about making more $$, and the business people that are in charge aiming for a bigger slize of the pie. Your last paragraph referring to the 90's rule of thumb sounds good on paper and to you and me but I don't think to many airline owners think like that. If they can fill up 10 airplanes in the busy season they will get ten airplanes as long there is work somewhere for them in the off season. Most of us would preferr to be "here" for 12 months, but will settle for "6 here and 6 there" if it means being employed 12 months out of the year. If having a mutual agreement in place for wetleasing during the off season is having a detoriating effect on your T&Cs I am sorry to hear that. Like I said our T&C are pretty much to North American standards and we are taken very good care of when deployed so I haven't heard any complaints on this end.

[levantes]

You said: Sunwing T&C's are on par with Canadian standards and cost of living in Canada are in a different league from Europe (I am guessing 25 - 50% less depending on where in Europe you are)

That is exactly what I'm saying! You cost less, low leasing rate therefore very attractive for european management!


You said: I don't see how Sunwing's less attractive T&C would be an excuse for management to cut wages in Europe

Cheaper Labour! You don't have that in Canada?
If I can do my job with less I will not choose the expensive one unless he brings or I bring his price down!
From what I understand though is that in Canada aviation is quite unique.
Vast country, small regional airlines and a very unstable working enviroment.
I've read that a lot of airlines went bust the last years so I fully understand your views on the issues that I raised.
But being on the other side of the pond with the salaries being high (cost of living is high) even for the Low Cost companies, having a situation like what I described previously is fire in my pants.

[doo]

levantes
this has been going on for around 20 yrs Canada 3000 used to send a/c across to fly British charters for Air 2000, and so on.
I remember when E European a/c and crews were the bad guy due much lower T&C's.

[Rubberbiscuit]

I hear you. Again I could be wrong as I do not know what the agreement between Sunwing and European carriers look like, but although our baseline salary is lower here the company forks out about 40,000Cdn over 6 months on expenses to every pilot deployed over and above the rest of the wage. I'd imagine the expenses along with the monthly salary is built in to the cost of the wet lease. The cost of the a/c lease, incurance, fuel etc should remain fixed, so I don't see where the big savings would lie. The big advantage is in that it allows companies to operate more airplanes during peak season and hence create more revenue without the worries of what to do with eqipment during off season. Laying off, hiring, training etc gets costly when you have to assume that a big percentage of pilot/flight attendants would not return after a lay-off..... which brings us back to my/your point about fleet size. Unfortunatly that is completely out of our hands and will always remain that way.

[levantes]

What your saying makes sense!
Unfortunately I have inside info regarding the agreement between Sunwing and my company which obviously I cannot share with you, that is prooving what I'm saying.
Before the Sunwing agreement there were numerous attempts to reduce layover allowance (because us too deploy and operate) and to employ contract pilots with a 6 month contract renuable!
After the agreement one aircraft operated by us left for Canada and came back operated by you guys!
And we talking about aircraft that was leased initially by my company!
Do your maths now and tell me if they made savings or not!
There are some parts of the world were airline management gets allergies when it comes to pilot emoluments!:=

[Rubberbiscuit]

Did not know that was how it shook out for you guys. Puts a whole new slant on it.....

[llnflder]

id say both swg and eca made savings.cheap lease for swg and cheaper labor for eca.

[levantes]

id say someone has very fat account somewhere in the Caribbean!:yuk:

[llnflder]

no i would say a good way for swg to keep pilots employed during the off season,and take advantage of a convienient cheap lease.It works both ways.both companies have to be part of it.one airplane two sets of pilots.

[levantes]

Are we some sort of a charity institution?
Sunwing can do what ever they want with their pilots.If they can find work for their pilots in off season that's great!
Not in my company though and its not just me saying that!
We are working hard, we go the extra mile but we will safeguard what we have with teeth and nails.
And be sure about that!

[pcm]

Lavantes, you should be thanking companies like Sunwing for Saving your job. How long in this market do you think your company would last only flying 6 months a year? Do you think the aircraft are free during the winter when your not flying them? The partnership between North American carriers and European Carriers is a perfect mesh. If you want to protect your job by kicking out those that are saving you help yourself.

If in fact Sunwing took over the lease payments on your aircraft you should also be thanking them. Your company is no longer on the hook for them and they are being flown 12 months a year now.

No one is making money off the pilots by undercutting wages. Take the pay for a sunwing pilot, add the per-diem, housing, cars and you will come up with a figure very close to your pay and per-diem.

Stop being short sighted and look at the bigger picture. We both need each other to keep a competitive edge over the competition.

[levantes]

You never took payments for the leasing fee!
The initial leasing fee to ILFC is $400000 paid by ECA as well as the heavy maintenance!
It is leased to Sunwing for only $276000 per month for a period of 6 months a year during the winter! The remaining 6 months ECA pays the leasing fee to ILFC and $196000 a month for crews to Sunwing! I don't know how much your getting from that money but I'm sure not all of it!
It's not in culture anyway to ask for a lot!
Some deal hah....
Crew utilization in Crete is zero!
Last year 2 a/c, 12 crews, 55 layovers per pilot. This year 1 a/c, 8 crews, 46 layovers per pilot. The other aircraft has I guess simillar number of crews for Sunwing, paid of course by ECA including accomodation which wasn't to your standards (which I agree)!
You Sunwing pilots don't underestimate me as I'm NOT that stupid to insist nor shortsighted! We have facts in our hands that prove this is a bad deal for us and the government as the owner is already informed and will take action!
There are other ways to occupy 6 aircraft and make profit!
We don't need the "Canadian Hand" to pull us from the mud!
By the way we don't just fly for 6 months! ECA has been around for 16 years now and survived two Gulf wars which affected tourism substantially down here!
But if you insist I don't mind doing what you asked for!
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

[skycaptain007]

I hope the markets recover soon. They are not putting people in a mood to spend money on vacations. If we can just have a short recession everything will be just fine. If it is long things may get a little bit more challenging. I sure hope that all turns out well. Nobody wants to see another airline go bust.

[skycaptain007]

The future has already landed at Skyservice Airlines Inc., which has cancelled snacks at internal meetings, restricted BlackBerry use, lowered office thermostats and scrapped company-paid parties in favour of potlucks.

In an internal memo, Canada's second-largest charter airline has told employees that after recently issuing layoff notices, it must also institute a hiring freeze and reduce some salaries, but insists those traditional cost-cutting measures don't go far enough.

Nothing is sacred. Restrictions have been placed on printing, photocopying and long-distance calls. The coffee machine is no longer free. Even the company-sponsored golf tournament is toast.

Skyservice's plight foreshadows a cost-cutting future at other companies starting to tighten their belts amid a deteriorating economy and deepening global financial crisis.

I hope this is not a sign of things to come.

[phonetic]

Cargojet Income Fund, Canada's main domestic cargo carrier, says softening demand for its services have forced it to embark on a cost-cutting program that includes lower salaries for executives and frozen wages for employees. High fuel prices and reduced shipments mean that the company must become leaner, Cargojet president Ajay Virmani and other executives said in a memo to staff. Cargojet, which slashed its monthly distributions in July to 6.75 cents a unit from 9.64 cents, has temporarily banned business travel and halted discretionary spending on entertainment for customers and employees. The trust will also be limiting expenses for cellphones and mobile devices. CJT.UN (TSX) rose 10 cents to $4.45.

globeandmail.com: Cargojet cuts costs as demand slows (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081010.RTICKERA10-2/TPStory/?query=brent+jang)

[Cuban.Cutie]

As of November 1st. Over 1000 employee's of Sunwing will be laid off?

I am afraid they are in trouble!
:\

[pcm]

Actually cuban cutie Sunwing is still hiring. We are still short for the winter season and bookings are up over last year. Nice try though!!

[J.O.]

FWIW, I think cabin cutie is just stirring the pot, but don't make the mistake of assuming that continuous hiring is a sign of viability. Jetsgo was also still hiring when the plug got pulled.

[4-Daned]

Lets never compare those two.

[J.O.]

Who was comparing them? There's more differences than similarities in the business models. But just because you're hiring doesn't mean you're solvent. Zoom was hiring for this winter too.

[ng78]

lots of the same characters from jetsgo are @ sunwing and they have some similar marketing tactics. I'm not convinced that everybody will survive unscathed this winter in Canada.

[4-Daned]

The comparison with Jetsgo is misplaced...LeBlanc hiring pilots involved $30,000.00...He was well aware of the companies finances, and didn't secure the funds....

That was revenue. He's a piece of work. Sunwing is a different company altogether.....Laid off with an 737 type rating is different than $30,000 down on a F-100....

The zoom hiring is a valid point.

[MAN2YKF]

To keep Sunwing on there toe's, i hear that Transat will be coming after them next year.
With Sunwing untilizing small airports around the country this winter, I hear that Transat will be doing the same next winter. (good competition?)
As the A310's will not be able to be accommodated at several airports, i hear transat will be booking more seats next winter using agreements with Westjet and SkyService, using their 737's A320's.

As for Sunwing, Keep flying, hope they stick around for a long time to come.

[richardhead]

Actually they will be using Canjet with 737NG´s this year.

[richardhead]

You know I just posted a reply and then went back and read a couple of the previous posts. I still can´t believe that people in this industry absoloutley relish the fact that another person in the same industry may lose his job. Are we as pilots so paranoid and insecure??

[ng78]

Mr. Head, I hope I didn't come across that way. You are right though, as airline employees we are often too quick to downplay our competitors instead of looking at ourselves working towards the same goal - a viable airline industry.

[Rubberbiscuit]

I agree with you on all points, but also want to say there is no comparison between Leblanc and the Hunter family. Leblanc is a shortsighted scoundrel that intentionally stole money from customers and employees alike. He sold thousands of tickets on routes yet to be initiated in the weeks preceeding the bankruptcy knowing full well where the company was headed.

The Hunters founded Sunwing Vacations 25 years ago for what it is worth and seem to be organized with plans and back up plans going forward. I am only speculating of course. That said, the looming or current recession (depending on whom you might ask), is turning the coming charter season into a whole new ballgame. Something has to give, as tens of thousands of potential or confirmed holiday travelers are downgrading or cancelling their winter getaways. Transat posted a loss recently and expressed their concern for the tougher economic times ahead. I have no idea how any of the balance sheets of the other vacation airlines in Canada looks, but the spiraling dollar and the general state of the economy concerns me for sure. I hope we all come out at the other end of the tunnel in one piece, only time will tell. Good luck to all!!

[ng78]

Well said Rubberbiscuit. I don't disagree wtih you on the Hunter family either.

As airline industry employees, we're all in this together, so let's work that way as much as possible!

[FlyingHighAgain]

Bookings may be up, but how much are prices down on average. I also hear Sunwing is not hedged the Canadian dollar's downward spiral and with 30% US dollar costs, especially fuel, it has got to hurt, no? Are they actually profitable?

[richardhead]

Where did you hear that. Unless it was from the President, VP or owner it is nothing but mindless hear say thrown onto this forum for one reason only. To stir up s"·(t.

[Willie Everlearn]

richardhead

...so, does the term "Pilot Rumour Network" apply to this thread or not? :ugh:

Sounds to me like you're more of a "Pilot Fact Network" person. :suspect:

...just a guess. :confused:

C'mon. Lighten up. It's more fun that way. :ok:

[jonny dangerous]

This is what FlyingHighAgain posted in Spectator's Balcony:


Does anyone know if Sunwing has fuel and / or foreign exchange hedges, and are they profitable at current pricing?

This guy joined PPrune 2 days ago and his only two posts are negative on Sunwing. He's either working for a competitor, or got turned down by them.

Bad form indeed.

Jonny

[Willie Everlearn]

Recently read how Southwest had one of its' greatest quarterly lo$$es in its' history. The reason given was 'hedging' fuel prices.
Does that mean others in this industry are 'hedging'?
Probably.
Does it mean Sun Wing is hedging fuel?
Possibly.
Does that put them in a bad financial position if they're hedging fuel prices?
It certainly does. (how well have your investments done over the last month?)

Without knowing how SunWing runs their business, it would be difficult to say how they're doing financially. No matter how you slice it. Wouldn't it???

[Rubberbiscuit]

?????? Am I missing something? I was paid on time and so was everyone else I have spoken too.

[mammasarah]

I was paid on time and correctly.

[jonny dangerous]

Regarding Crazy Woman's post:

Ask any Sunwing employee why they were late on the payroll last Friday. I have a hard time believing that it was a 'computer glitch'.

Long time lurker, short time poster, 2nd post.

I don't work for SunWing, but do believe this industry's challenging enough without anonymous one time posters spreading garbage.

I wonder if anyone has ever been successfully prosecuted for damaging a corporation's reputation via such tactics?

JD

[jonny dangerous]

And this gem from Crazy Woman:

Well, we'll see. I say 2nd week in January. The fact is Sunwing is struggling, and no one on the street knows what the financials are and that is a concern. The Hunters were trying to peddle the company for $21m last spring. A little on the cheap side for an airline that size. C3 employees were blind sided even though their demise was well documented and predicted along with JetsGo's. EnerJet has a chance given that they have big money behind them. CanJet will become a stronger competitor I think as they are affiliated with Air Transat. Skyservice is also a mystery. Y'all will have a week's notice when you hear that Sunwing is cash for gas.


Crazy Woman,

Can you not be content with doing your job professionally, investing your money wisely, and then retiring in 20 years, without the need to post negative comments about your competition on internet forums? You do realize that the company that you are trying to send out of business has employees who have families with mouths to feed, do you not? As someone who went through the windups of three airlines, it is quite obvious that you have not had that experience which in my mind explains the quite cavalier disregard you have for the concept of fair play.

The Karma thing will catch up with you some day.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Crazy Woman wrote:
"The fact is Sunwing is struggling, and no one on the street knows what the financials are and that is a concern." That statement right there is contradictory and shows you know as little as the next guy! For what it is worth, the Hunters were named entrepeneurs of the year by Ernst & Young after they were given access to and reviewed the books last year. That does not mean it is successfull today. When XL went under however, Sunwing was able to replace a significant number of leased aircraft unsolicited and in short oder, I would like to think that says something. It may not mean anything but fuel prices is down 60% or so and prices on hotels etc are way down in many vacation hotspots due to the american economy. That has to make up for some lost business due to the overall economy. It is profitsharing time soon and everyone is curious as to what that will look like. Last year everyone got 15% of gross earnings.

On a different note, where do you get the Idea that Sunwing was/is for sale? Or that we are folding specifically in the 2nd week of January? You are either one of the Hunters or have sick sense of humor! That said anything can be bought for the right price. Jonny is right, your lack of tact and attitude towards fellow aviators tells me you have not had the rug pulled out from underneath you yet. As for the karma idea... you just never know!

[J.O.]

Sounds like CrazyWoman is a CanJet pilot. Some of the "mystery" has been solved ...


Skyservice Airlines and Signature Vacations renew long-term agreement

TORONTO, Nov. 26 /CNW/ - Skyservice Airlines and Signature Vacations today announced they have renewed their long-term agreement. Signature Vacations and Skyservice Airlines have signed a long-term commercial agreement where Skyservice will continue as the exclusive provider of dedicated aircraft to Signature Vacations supporting their network ofvacation packages.

Skyservice Airlines has been providing dedicated aircraft to Signature Vacations since early 2002. "Over the past six years, Skyservice Airlines has provided Signature Vacations' customers with superior customer service" said Mike Price, President of Signature Vacations. "We are pleased to continue our partnership with Skyservice and will continue working together to maximize our customers' inflight experience".

"We are delighted to have extended our agreement with Signature Vacations. Over the years Skyservice and Signature have become excellent partners. We are looking forward to continuing to meet and exceed the expectations of Signature's customers for a long time to come," said Rob Giguere, President & CEO of Skyservice Airlines. Skyservice operates nine dedicated aircraft supporting the Signature product line, all configured with Signature's new Star Class service. Skyservice's renowned service includes welcome cocktails, in-flight meals and entertainment.

Skyservice and Signature serve Mexico, the Caribbean and Central America. Skyservice Airlines carries over one million passengers annually and currently operates a total fleet of 20 aircraft including the Airbus A-320, A-330 and Boeing B-757 to popular vacation destinations in Canada, the United States, the Caribbean, Mexico and Europe. Skyservice Airlines is widely recognized for its quality service and the versatility of its charter operations; its customers include tour operators, corporations, governments and relief agencies.

Signature Vacations, one of Canada's leading tour operators for package holidays, offers over 200 all-inclusive or self-catering resorts in destinations throughout Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean, serviced from 13 gateways across Canada. Signature Vacations is a part of TUI Travel PLC, (a division of TUI AG), the world's largest leisure travel group withover 21 billion euros in revenues and 68,000 employees, operating in 180 countries from over 30 source markets, proudly serving over 30 million customers annually.

[jonny dangerous]

How bouts we all does our job as pilots and let the big wigs and office folk fight the marketing battles.

[Willie Everlearn]

You have to wonder about some of the posters in this thread. :D

Speculation and rumour on a pilot rumour forum??? You've got to be kidding. Where did anyone get that idea?
Who in their right mind would have the nerve to 'speculate' about the viability of any Canadian carrier let alone dare to speculate (factually or otherwise) about their financial state? Maybe we should identify the Sacred Cows before we post on this forum, so that (in typical Canadian fashion) you don't offend some of our more sensitive readers.

Nah! Not me. Je n'ai give-a-**** pas.
If you don't agree, that's fine. That's great. I'd like to know why you don't agree. Just don't try to tell us we have no business 'speculating' or 'postulating' on a pilot rumour network with rumour and conjecture about Sunwing, Westjet, Air Canada or any other carrier for that matter.

I'm also curious to know what it is some of you don't get about the notion rumours and speculation are the very essence of a forum like PPRuNe? This is why we visit the site. Maybe you'd prefer a rumour like Sunwing are about to lease 4 discounted/parked B777s for their Far East charters coming up next summer??? (by the way, most of the ex-Zoom guys are inline for those positions) Why would they get leased aircraft to fly to the Far East? Because the Far Eastern carriers can't find the pilots to provide the service from that end.

Like it or not, in the present global financial environment, somebody's going down. So why not make your pick. Go ahead. Speculate. Postulate. Take a wild guess. Read that crystal ball. Put it in writing. See what you get for feedback. C'mon, it's fun! Give it a shot.
:ok:

[gumbi]

I apologize in advance if my point doesn't come through as clearly and non-equivocally as I'd like but English is not my first language...

As a pilot myself, I can understand why it is in bad taste to wish or talk somewhat lightly about the demise of an airline that employs fellow pilots...everybody needs a job, right?

But what do you make of the fact that a new player comes on the scene, cuts the prices so bad that the existing companies loose big money because of it, some of them maybe so much so that the pilots of those companies might be facing what we're not supposed to wish others????

Doesn't make sense, does it?

[jonny dangerous]

Willie Everlearn, funny you mention things being in a Canadian fashion.

I spend much time trolling the various forums in other parts of the world and rarely find the examples I see in Canada of posters planting rumours in so spectacular a fashion.

By all means post questions. Be somewhat responsible in doing so.

JD

[Willie Everlearn]

JD
Speculation, whether it's positive or negative, is just speculation. Right? I'd put rumours in the same basket. It's sometimes interesting and it's always a bit of a shocker especially when whatever is speculated about, happens.

Personally, I read the comments in this thread (and others) out of interest.
Having gone through three company failures myself, I agree with an earlier post, it isn't a pleasant experience and it's certainly not something you wish upon anyone else.

These are hard economic times and every carrier in Canada is vulnerable. That isn't likely to change.

If I were allowed to speculate I'd point a finger, (with apologies in advance) it would be aimed at Cargo Jet. Followed closely by Enerjet and Sunwing. But what do I know. It's crystal ball gazing on a good day and nothing more.

LCC startup with one aeroplane? Let's think about that for a minute.......

take care,
it's dangerous out there. :ok:

[Willie Everlearn]

:ok:Gumbi

Unfortunately, pilots aren't worth s**t in a handbag to many startups despite what you might think. Those who start companies like Jetsgo(ne), Ryanair, etc., will only take advantage of the prostitution market that is pilot employment.
All you have to do is scan the Pilot Wanted Ads. These pilot employment agencies are all cats chasing the same mouse and who's the sucker? Well, pilots are the suckers to be blunt.

At Ryanair, (allowing for minor inaccuracies) you pay for your type rating, you pay for your recurrent sims, and you pay for your uniform. The only silver lining is they pay a decent wage. As (what I like to call us) professionals, how is that Ryanair has even one pilot on their roster?

This industry is what it is and we're merely pawns. You have to play with your head and you have to get your head out of fantasyland.

Some might agree, some will certainly disagree but I leave it to you.

Best of luck down the road.

[gumbi]

That was exactly the point of my post Willie!

It is sometimes hard to feel sorry for people who take on jobs with companies whose sole mission is to undercut prices (read pay s****y wages and conditions) to get their part of the pie, and force other companies under. You have to be lucid and know what you're getting yourself into, and not expect much compassion when your proposition is not the winning one, IMHO.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Willie Everlearn wrote:

"You have to wonder about some of the posters in this thread. :D

Speculation and rumour on a pilot rumour forum??? You've got to be kidding. Where did anyone get that idea?
Who in their right mind would have the nerve to 'speculate' about the viability of any Canadian carrier let alone dare to speculate (factually or otherwise) about their financial state? Maybe we should identify the Sacred Cows before we post on this forum, so that (in typical Canadian fashion) you don't offend some of our more sensitive readers."

I don't know if I am one of the posters you are wondering about, and I agree with alot of what you have expressed in this thread., but will say I am not sensitive to rumors and speculation. What I am sensitive to (although I try not to care) is posters such as Crazy Woman coming on here posting lies, fabricated stories or whatever they dreamed during their beauty sleep the night before! Hey if Sunwing is not making payroll or paying for fuel with cash I want to know about it, trust me!! Coming on here and posting stuff such as:

"Ask any Sunwing employee why they were late on the payroll last Friday. I have a hard time believing that it was a 'computer glitch'."...... does however piss me off when it is simply a lie, nevermind a rumor. Yes it is a "rumor network/forum", but the first P in PPrune stands for Professional, and there is nothing professional about posting fabricated lies for personal amusement. I have no issues with rumors or speculations about a companys viability in the long or short term. Hell, I have no idea how Sunwing or any other leisure airline in Canada is doing, and my point is that nobody does except for upper management and the company accountants! Trust me Willie, it would come as little or no surprise to me if I found myself unemployed again. For all I know I could be out of work as I am sitting here typing this and just don't know about it yet:ooh:!

Gumbi wrote:

"But what do you make of the fact that a new player comes on the scene, cuts the prices so bad that the existing companies loose big money because of it, some of them maybe so much so that the pilots of those companies might be facing what we're not supposed to wish others????"

I can appreciate you sentiment, but this is the reality of capitalism and a free market. It is a dog it dog world, especially in the aviation sector.. that is not to say I agree with all that goes on, and do belive low cost/no frills airlines has turned what used to be a pleasurable and exiting experience for most travellers into no more than a greyhound coach ride from A to B. I will take capitalism over the othe option... In China for example, pilots essentially sign their life away for airline jobs that pay peanuts, and pay mortgages on a place they will never own!

[gumbi]

Oh don't get me wrong RB, I understand the concept completely... but the fact is don't expect warmth and fuzziness if you loose your job from a company who cashes in on cutting the other's throat and doesn't succeed... or don't get on your high horses when a poster makes a prediction about it that you don't like... Like you say, it's dog eat dog. If you agree to the rules, then play by the rules!

That's my point.

[Rubberbiscuit]

There is no high horse to get off of here, rest assured. I have found myself unemployed/laid off from various reasons including the competition across the street undercutting and eventually forcing my then employer to lay off over half of its current pilots including me. These things happens and are out om my control.... I certainly did not get pissed off at the pilots at the competition. They were simply trying to do their job and feed their families just like everyone else. Which is the points I am trying to make in this thread. I for one wish no harm to anyone, including our competitors. I was or is not looking for any kind of sympathy(read warmth and fuzziness).... sympathy for what? I have a job for now. I could not care less if someone wants to throw darts at a calendar and predict the competitions demise... I just find it humorous that someone would go as far as telling me that I will be out of work the 2nd week of January!! On the upside I guess I don't have to study for my recurrent now that I know I will be on the street anyway;)!

As far as undercutting goes I am not sure who you are referring to, but it takes alot more than a lower price to succeed. Including but not limited to customer service, customer support and having a product people will by into more than once. I think vacationers are very loyal for the most part, and if they are happy with a product they will keep coming back regardless of the name on the airplane. Being able to offer a lower price than the competition does not mean everyone is going to come running to you. It does however make people that could not normally afford a vaction think twice about it.

In a nutshell I simply don't understand where people see the need to post lies or slander about others... competition or not.

[Willie Everlearn]

RB

...let's hope you stay employed and enjoy flying as much as ever, assuming you do enjoy it.
At the end of the day, we only have 20/20 hindsight. :ok:

[Rubberbiscuit]

...thanks for that, and yes I certainly enjoy what I am doing very much. Still haven't figured out what the hell I am doing in this crazy industry though:)! Must be a sucker for chaos and a life in uncertainty I guess!!!?

[levantes]

Sunwing's operation in Europe in the summer is over!
New EU legislation effective from november 1st!

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_portal/internal_market/doc/reg_1008_2008.pdf

[northeast canuck]

Sorry but what exactly are we supposed to learn from this document, and how does it relate to Sunwing?

Can you point us to the relevant section? This is a pretty impenetrable stuff.

[levantes]

First page paragraph 8

In order to avoid excessive recourse to lease agreements of
aircraft registered in third countries, especially wet lease,
these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional
circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the
Community market, and they should be strictly limited in
time and fulfil safety standards equivalent to the safety rules
of Community and national legislation.

[Rubberbiscuit]

I read through it and I am not good at breaking down legal jargon but articl 13 "Leasing" seem to leave the door open still????


1. Without prejudice to Article 4(c), a Community air carrier
may have one or more aircraft at its disposal through dry or wet
lease agreement. Community air carriers may freely operate wetleased
aircraft registered within the Community except where
this would lead to endangering safety. The Commission shall
ensure that the implementation of such a provision is reasonable
and proportionate and based on safety considerations.
2. A dry lease agreement to which a Community air carrier is a
party or a wet lease agreement under which the Community air
carrier is the lessee of the wet-leased aircraft shall be subject to
prior approval in accordance with applicable Community or
national law on aviation safety.
3. A Community air carrier wet leasing aircraft registered in a
third country from another undertaking shall obtain prior
approval for the operation from the competent licensing
authority. The competent authority may grant an approval if:
(a) the Community air carrier demonstrates to the satisfaction
of the competent authority that all safety standards
equivalent to those imposed by Community or national
law are met; and
(b) one of the following conditions is fulfilled:
(i) the Community air carrier justifies such leasing on the
basis of exceptional needs, in which case an approval
may be granted for a period of up to seven months
that may be renewed once for a further period of up
to seven months;
31.10.2008 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 293/9
(ii) the Community air carrier demonstrates that the
leasing is necessary to satisfy seasonal capacity needs,
which cannot reasonably be satisfied through leasing
aircraft registered within the Community, in which
case the approval may be renewed; or
(iii) the Community air carrier demonstrates that the
leasing is necessary to overcome operational difficulties
and it is not possible or reasonable to lease aircraft
registered within the Community, in which case the
approval shall be of limited duration strictly necessary
for overcoming the difficulties.
4. The competent authority may attach conditions to the
approval. Such conditions shall form part of the wet lease
agreement.
The competent authority may refuse to grant an approval if there
is no reciprocity as regards wet leasing between the Member
State concerned or the Community and the third country where
the wet-leased aircraft is registered.
The competent authority shall inform the Member States
concerned about an approval it has granted for wet leasing
aircraft registered in a third country.

[levantes]

[the Community air carrier justifies such leasing on the
basis of exceptional needs, in which case an approval
may be granted for a period of up to seven months
that may be renewed once for a further period of up
to seven months

That's from article 13 that means 2 seasons ONLY IF the authority grants them permission to lease!

[northeast canuck]

This isn't going to change a thing. The key word is "should" (only be allowed in exceptional circumstances). Not "must", but should. And it won't be difficult for an airline to claim "exceptional circumstances" either. We live in exceptional times! Notice how the maximum time is given as 7 months? That allows wet-lease aircraft to fly an entire summer season, as they always have done. It is rare for anything to last longer than that anyway so most airlines would not need to use the extension clause which would apply to concurrent periods of 7 months, not annually recurring ones as is what currently happens.

There are a number of airlines here in the UK with long-term reciprocal agreements with Canadian carriers (Sunwing, Skyservice), including mine. If we didn't have them we would be looking at massive fleet and crew reductions. That's pretty exceptional...

[levantes]

If it makes you feel better and suits your current situation there's no objection on my side.
The law is there and interpret it as you like!
Thank you!

[Rubberbiscuit]

From article 13:

(ii) the Community air carrier demonstrates that the
leasing is necessary to satisfy seasonal capacity needs,
which cannot reasonably be satisfied through leasing
aircraft registered within the Community, in which
case the approval may be renewed;

The above quote leaves the doors open for multi year agreements in my opinion. In the quote below, it does seem like the EU wants to ensure that it is not a one way street so to speak, but rather a reciprocal agreement. If nothing else it certainly seems to me that the EU wants to have a say in what goes on. I also agree with northeast canuck in that there is a lot of "should" and "may" in those laws which also leaves the door cracked.

The competent authority may refuse to grant an approval if there
is no reciprocity as regards wet leasing between the Member
State concerned or the Community and the third country where
the wet-leased aircraft is registered.
The competent authority shall inform the Member States
concerned about an approval it has granted for wet leasing
aircraft registered in a third country.

For the record, I do not believe in agreements that are more benefitial or only benefitial to one carrier. At the same time, we are in the same boat as northeast canuck in that without these reciprocal agreements I am guessing we would only need about 25% or so of our pilots/fleet in the summer based on this summers flying in Canada.

[pcm]

Nothing has changed Levantas, in fact Sunwing might be operating two aircraft this summer out of Greece for Eurocypria. Its a mutually beneficial agreement between two companies. It happens all over Europe and I can assure you nothing has changed.

Gumbi if company A can produce the same product as company B for 20% less therefore charge 20% less whats the problem? If Sunwing wasn't making money then I would agree with you but thats not the case. Are you saying that AirTransat is losing money?

[Willie Everlearn]

I don't trust the EU or their JAA/EASA regulators. Certainly not as a Canadian. If you don't have work for your airline in Canada, then it makes perfect sense to sell your airline elsewhere. But, economics and protectionist regulations could sink that idea. Our reasoning and logic differs.

It is a protectionist regime (as it should be) and it will do as it likes to protect it's member states. (gee, what a concept?) As for interpreting their regs from a Canadian perspective, I'd forget it.
We Canadians (Transport Canada) aren't the least bit 'protectionist'. How many foreigners post on this forum, looking for pilot employment in Canada, and some, supposedly in-the-know Canadian pilot actually takes the time to tell the anonymous poster who he/she should approach about a job and what he/she needs to get the job.
Are you kidding???
(As for foreign pilots with an ICAO licence who legally immigrate to Canada, that's an entirely different discussion.)

Have you noticed not one, not one pilot group in Canada wants to champion the cause or tell our Government it needs to protect the few pilot jobs we have, for Canadian pilots? (not as far as I know)
I think I understand the protectionist attitude over there.

It might be worth noting, while Sunwing is 'expanding' by increasing its fleet size, passenger traffic worldwide is down significantly. Do we really think the bucket and spade brigade is going to be flooding the Caribbean and Florida this winter??? Are we that naieve?
Sure sounds like it.

I hope Sunwing has a plan.
I hope Sunwing has a really good plan.

...and another thing. If the available seats ARE controlled or directed by Air Transat Vacations, then the problem may go beyond a single carrier. Others could be affected by a significant decrease in customers who decide NOT to go south this winter.

You have to hope the brain trust at Transat, Sunwing, Skyservice and CanJet in light of the recent economic and political turmoil in this country, has reassessed their Winter capacity and aircraft lease agreements or (as I've already said) someone's going down.

[northeast canuck]

Sunwing and Skyservice would not exist if they couldn't wet-lease to Europe in the summer. They send far more Canadians over to Europe than go the other way.

And as for the "non-protectionist" Canadians, think again. After similar complaints a few years ago they stopped validating licences and required Europeans to sit the exams and do the instrument rating (albeit on type in the sim).

[ecosystem]

Willie whats with the hostility towards Sunwing and others?
Anyone would think that you had been "PFOed" by these airlines. Are you pissed off at people in general? Or is your anger only directed at airlines that don't want to employ you?

[J.O.]

northeast canuck:

I can't speak for Sunwing, but the seconded pilot numbers between Skyservice and the UK partners has been very close to an even match for the past several years.

[Willie Everlearn]

ecosystem

I'm not pistoff at anyone and couldn't care less whether ANYone wants or doesn't want to employ me. I've reached the point in my life (notice I didn't use the word career?) where I understand the industry well enough to know that I am no longer prepared to bend over backwards and kiss the ground so I can have another opportunity to work for 40K a year as a jr. F/O for another fly-by-night operator who expects me to wait 6 months for an ID50 while running medicals and checkrides every six months so I can sit in a hotel in Europe for six months at a time when the so-called "industry" is teetering on the brink. Thanks but no thanks. I prefer stability. You?

Pistoff??? Not me. I was merely musing about the potential for airline failures in this country. Can't you read?

[Rubberbiscuit]

I don't trust the EU or their JAA/EASA regulators. Certainly not as a Canadian. If you don't have work for your airline in Canada, then it makes perfect sense to sell your airline elsewhere. But, economics and protectionist regulations could sink that idea. Our reasoning and logic differs.

It is a protectionist regime (as it should be) and it will do as it likes to protect it's member states. (gee, what a concept?) As for interpreting their regs from a Canadian perspective, I'd forget it.
We Canadians (Transport Canada) aren't the least bit 'protectionist'. How many foreigners post on this forum, looking for pilot employment in Canada, and some, supposedly in-the-know Canadian pilot actually takes the time to tell the anonymous poster who he/she should approach about a job and what he/she needs to get the job.
Are you kidding???
(As for foreign pilots with an ICAO licence who legally immigrate to Canada, that's an entirely different discussion.)

Have you noticed not one, not one pilot group in Canada wants to champion the cause or tell our Government it needs to protect the few pilot jobs we have, for Canadian pilots? (not as far as I know)
I think I understand the protectionist attitude over there.

It might be worth noting, while Sunwing is 'expanding' by increasing its fleet size, passenger traffic worldwide is down significantly. Do we really think the bucket and spade brigade is going to be flooding the Caribbean and Florida this winter??? Are we that naieve?
Sure sounds like it.

I hope Sunwing has a plan.
I hope Sunwing has a really good plan.

...and another thing. If the available seats ARE controlled or directed by Air Transat Vacations, then the problem may go beyond a single carrier. Others could be affected by a significant decrease in customers who decide NOT to go south this winter.

You have to hope the brain trust at Transat, Sunwing, Skyservice and CanJet in light of the recent economic and political turmoil in this country, has reassessed their Winter capacity and aircraft lease agreements or (as I've already said) someone's going down.

I am still not convinced it is the EU's intention to shut down the possibility for wetleasing. Closing the door completely would be devastating for many of the leisure carriers over there as well. I mentioned it before, but repeat that I believe they want to protect the carriers from 1 sided agreements, and want to ensure the safety standards are at an acceptable level in the country where wetleased a/c comes from.

As far as the winter ahead goes, I agree something has to give. Overall capacity has been increases bigtime in Canada as we are into a deepening recession. I hope there is a plan as well and that my employer is willing to do what it takes to keep the company profitable in these tougher times ahead. Apparently preseason booking are very strong, but I am not sure how much that means in the current economic climate.

I love my job, but I am not as naive as to think nothing can happen. I hope I don't have to a job search again, but at the same time my resume is up to date and ready to go!

[ecosystem]

oh I can read willie... I can read your past posts. I can read all about how you tried to scab your way into cx and even they, at their most desperate, pfoed you.
willie... why the hostility?

[Willie Everlearn]

ecosystem

I'm not sure where you got the notion I tried to 'scab' at CX but I can assure you, I've never scabbed at CX. I've applied through their normal website recruitment pages, but was never accepted (at least not so far). It bothered me at some point, for sure, that they never replied. But then I realized, their retirement age was 55 (then).
You should know I'm months from retirement. Not years. Which might bring a collective sigh from the industry. But let me assure you, not as much as my sigh of relief when I finally DO cross the finish line.

Just curious. What's pfoed? (new expression for me)

Ahhh! I get it. p f o (nice one)

[pacificwind]

Having read all these posts with a great deal of interest, and in light of the current economic conditions across this great country of ours, I find it incredulous that there are, as we speak, new charter oriented carriers endeavouring to claim a piece of a rapidly shrinking charter/holiday market. Case in point, Enerjet in the west and Canjet in the east. Somehow Canjet is of the opinion that the charter market will be more lucrative and profitable than its' previous attempt as a sked airline.
SWG substantially diluted the market with it's entry a few years ago and I have to wonder how long it will be before another carrier bites the proverbial dust.

[flight1540]

Tour operators brace for winter of discontent


<LI _counted="undefined">http://images.theglobeandmail.com/v5/images/icon/icon-package_article_off.png (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081202.wrtours02/BNStory/Business/home) Article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081202.wrtours02/BNStory/Business/home) <LI class=last _counted="undefined">http://images.theglobeandmail.com/v5/images/icon/icon-package_comments_off.png (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081202.wrtours02/CommentStory/Business/home) Comments (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081202.wrtours02/CommentStory/Business/home) http://images.theglobeandmail.com/v5/images/icon/icon-comment.gif (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081202.wrtours02/CommentStory/Business/home)
http://images.theglobeandmail.com/v5/images/other/packageNavArrow.gifBRENT JANG
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
December 2, 2008 at 3:45 AM EST

Headed for a tough winter, tour operators are starting to dangle bargain prices in front of recession-weary Canadian travellers in hopes of filling a glut of seats to sun destinations.
The challenge is to get a piece of whatever spending is left for warm winter vacations after consumers count up the cumulative effect of shrunken savings from the market crash, a renewed urge to increase savings in the face of weaker job security and anemic purchasing power after a tumble in the loonie.
"Consumers will be holding back and scaling back on travel," said Robert Kokonis, president of travel consulting firm AirTrav Inc. "People's investments have tanked and they're down in the dumps. Sure, some will still go on a feel-good vacation. But there has been so much cash and wealth taken out of this marketplace."
Unless economic prospects improve by early 2009, it's destined to be a winter of too many tour packages and not enough customers, said Nina Slawek,who co-owns travel website TakeOffEh.com.
Lower prices are "great for consumers," she said, "but the industry has to cut capacity."
David Newman, an analyst with National Bank Financial Inc., surveyed tour operators recently and found that advance bookings have been surprisingly solid.
But he cautions that vacation prices had to be lowered to attract consumers, leading him to believe that the early momentum in bookings will prove to be a "head fake."
He predicts holiday package prices will decline 10 per cent on average this season. Last winter, prices dropped 10 per cent from the previous winter. Mr. Newman also forecasts that seat capacity could jump 20 per cent nationally because companies made plans earlier this year, long before this fall's stock market turmoil, to boost the number of vacation packages.
Given the overcapacity, it will be tough to fill seats without chopping prices first, reducing already thin profit margins, he said.
"The bottom line is that it's going to be a very, very rough winter for tour operators, with skinny margins," Mr. Newman said.
He added that Transat A.T. Inc., Sunwing Travel Group, Air Canada Vacations and WestJet Vacations Inc. are all poised to sharply increase capacity even as they face the "Molotov cocktail" of recession, credit crisis and growing unemployment.
Versant Partners Inc. analyst Cameron Doerksen said eroding consumer confidence spells trouble.
"It's got to be more difficult this winter. Clearly, demand isn't stronger this winter and there's more seat capacity. It's a classic economics case of more supply and less demand," Mr. Doerksen said.
In Winnipeg, a variety of vacation packages already have been scrapped because of the lack of demand, affecting trips to certain sites in Mexico, the Dominican Republic and Cuba. Transat, Sunwing and Sunquest Vacations have scaled back in the Manitoba capital, forcing an estimated 1,000 travellers who had prebooked to make other holiday plans, said Melissa Duguay, a travel agent at Journeys Travel and Leisure Super centre in Winnipeg.
Transat spokesman Jean-Michel Laberge played down the cancellations.
"It's really nothing unusual. It's the kind of adjustment that we do at the beginning of every season," he said. "We see what sells well and what is less popular, and we adjust accordingly. I mean, we still offer five destinations from Winnipeg."
Signature Vacations hasn't cancelled any trips from Winnipeg but its parent company, London-based TUI Travel PLC, warned last week that winter holiday bookings have slipped 5 per cent at its Canadian unit.
TUI, which runs the Signature Vacations and SellOffVacations.com brands, said its Canadian division posted an operating loss of £4.6-million ($8.8-million) for the year ended Sept. 30, compared with a profit of £5-million for the previous fiscal year. TUI's Canadian operations haven't followed the trend of adding more seats, trimming 4 per cent of its capacity.

[crazy woman]

Contracts for only 5 aircraft this summer. Layoffs?
Skyservice layoffs?

[ecosystem]

That's good news crazy... 5 aircraft deployed plus the 5 based in Canada should equal no layoffs for Sunwing?