Buying aircraft for timebuilding... appreciate advice!

[kirkegaard]

We're two pilots who would like to add some hours to our logbook. We are seriously thinking about buying a small plane. We're planing to fly just over 400-750 hrs in the plane.

Thought about renting a plane, however that just seems too expensive when we're looking for this amount of hrs (although there's less risk invovled with renting an aircraft).

Any good advice on how to go about this.....?

We need a IFR certified aircraft with a low fuel-burn - thinking about a Cessna 150/152 or C172. Other aircraft suggestions would be appreciated!

We have arranged with a good and cheap mechanic and figured out insurance and parking/tie-down fees.

Just need some good old advice, hope u will have to time to help.

Cheers

[Pilot DAR]

You can't go wrong with a C150 in reasonable condition, though not so many are IFR equipped. Another good choice, though many people will knock them, is the Piper Tomahawk. Avoid the odd planes, as they will be more expensive for parts and maintenance when you need them. Also more money to insure. The more common the plane, and cheaper it will be to fly. Buy only as big as you need, you can always rent bigger if you need it. No point in spending the extra to buy seats, and pay to fly them around empty!

My money is where my mouth is, I've owned my 1975 C150 for 21 years.

Pilot DAR

[kirkegaard]

thank you for your reply.... so you don't think it would be too risky business? a concern that has come to my mind is, what if major part brakes in the engine or something simular... Then it could turn out to be a costly enterprize... don't know if it's possible to get insured for a thing like that.....

An okay condition cessna 150/152 or piper, IFR certified & mode C... what would be the average price, don't want to buy something that going to be at maintenece every second week.

[Keygrip]

IFR certified *AND* Mode C? Eh?

Do the two things not go together?

IFR certified for where, under which authority/regulation and with what licence and rating will you fly it?

Buy a two seat aircraft for the two of you? No mass & balance problems?, no desire to take wife and/or family (or luggage) with you on a trip?

I'm assuming you will be doing *trips*, as you want hundreds of hours of experience in, apparently, any kind of weather.

If you're not doing "trips" then why an IFR certified aircraft?

(Yes - I am playing "Devil's Advocate").

[18greens]

Another option is to go to a club and ask them how much they will sell blocks of 100 hours to you. If you fly in the week out of the peak flying times you should get a fairly decent rate (try lots of places) and none of the hassle of the thing breaking.

Another option is to approach private owners with the same deal. Often ac are sold because they are underused, aeroplanes need to be flown.

[Julian]

If you are looking for an IFR capable aircraft then I assume you intend to do something with it rather than just burn holes in the sky, would probably suggest a decent 172 or PA28 as you will have 4 seats so can take mates with you and have decent load carrying capability.

If you sunk your money into a C150 you may find yourself regretting not getting the extra seats, etc after a short while.

J.

[Pilot DAR]

How many seats does your car have? How often do you drive with all of them occupied?

An important difference is that you're paying per seat to insure them. Why spend the money to insure seats which might be rarely used, depending upon how you intend to use the aircraft of course. The fact that you own a two place aircraft does not prevent you from occasionally renting a larger aircraft when you need it. If the cost of the aircraft is a make it or break it for buying, why spend more, or limit the financial reserves you have to pay the extra for seats you rarely use?

If money were no object, this would not even be a discussion....

Pilot DAR

[Julian]

Pilot DAR,

Its not just the seats but load capacity as I said above, i.e. I learnt in a C152 and with me and the instructor we were right on the limits. If Kirkwgaard wants to just take off and land again then he may well be ok with a C150 but the fact he requests something IFR suggests he may want to do something with it (hence why I asked), and if thats the case then put his mate in and he may be flying on low fuel and no baggage just to keep the weight down. Try hitching a caravan to your MX-5 :)

J.

P.S. I usually have 3 seats of my aircraft used as whilst flying it fun it like driving a car - i.e. much better when someone there to share the experience with.

[BeechNut]

No. 1 rule of aviation. Never buy more aircraft than you need. You'll regret it.

So, figure out your needs: the required useful load, length of most missions, IFR vs VFR, etc. Then buy the least aircraft that will fill those needs.

A C-150 is just about the cheapest certified aircraft to operate. I have had a C-150, a PA28-140, a Beech Skipper and a Beech Sundowner (current). Hands down the C-150 is the cheapest to operate and easiest to have repaired and find parts. If you need something a little more capable, i.e. kids in the back seat, more range, more stable IFR platform, I would recommend a PA28-140 over a C-172. Thanks to the vagaries of the market, in Canada a PA28-140, with a nearly identical Lycoming O-320, identical real-life cruise speeds, etc, and standard 50 gal fuel, will cost a good $15-$20k less than a C172 to purchase. I suspect that's the same elsewhere as well.

[BroomstickPilot]

For me, two seats would be enough.

However, I find the biggest limitation of the C150/152 series is their range. You can't fly very far before having to land and refuel, especially if you want to tour, including flight in instrument conditions, and have plenty of reserve endurance available for a diversion.

Broomstick.

[Ultranomad]

Being in a similar situation and also planning to buy an inexpensive plane, I am a bit disappointed with the prevailing market prices for older C150/C152 compared to e.g. Tomahawks, Rallyes, etc. Granted, C150s are cheap to maintain and can be maintained virtually everywhere, but will this adequately compensate the difference in purchase price? Personally, I am in doubt - could anyone provide some figures?

[Nibbler]

There are a good number of PA28-161's and C172 (1.7l and 2.0l) diesel conversions about. Fuel flow about 4.5 USG per hour at cruise. Good range, 4 seats or 2 with full fuel / load. Cheap fuel!

Ballpark figures but you can rent either for around £100-120 hour wet from a flying club, less if paying 100 hours up front. From an aviation rental company somewhere between £40-60 dry - given the number of hours your talking about you could get a better deal and this might be the cheaper option.

In both case's none of the usual A/C ownership problems.

If you want contact details for either option PM me.

[JohnGV]

Broomstick pilot,

Cessna 152 limitations???

There not that bad, on long-range tanks at 8,000 ft, 65% power (standard temp, 0 wind granted) you get about 620nm range! I wouldnt say thats too bad hey???

Cheers, John

[S-Works]

I would give a vote for a 150/152. I bought one several years ago and did a thousand hours in it touring all over Europe and a lot of it under IFR. My old one is up in Liverpool now I think, full IFR fit, GNS430, GMA340, ILS, DME, ADF, Fuel computer etc and sold it for around £28k with a 200hr Millenium engine.

W&B was never a problem and with a range of 3.5hrs I needed a pee before fuel!!! It was a very cheap aircraft to operate, fun to fly and would go in and out of anywhere.

I agree with PilotDAR. Why pay for seats that you are not going to use?

I moved to a 172XP for the 'extra' capacity, pay twice the cost to operate and rarely use the extra capacity I thought I needed!

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi JohnGV,

Fine if you've managed to find a C152 with long range tanks, but most on the market are ex-school aircraft and don't have long range tanks. Fitting long range tanks would be expensive.

The one I flew wouldn't go above 4,000'.

Broomstick.

[S-Works]

The one I flew wouldn't go above 4,000'.

I will see if I can link a picture of mine at FL140 going to Guernsey. Standard tanks. 3.5 hrs would give 320nm still air. More than enough for an hour building leg?

Not to mention the fact that experience does not come from flying a long way in a straight line but from, the joining and landing at the way points on the journey.....