Ryanair Tail Strike at Dublin Sept 11

[ROKNA]

RYR 208, declared mayday shortly after take off

ATC comms suggest tail strike on rotation and/or loss of pressurisation

Landed and vacated 28 without assistance

Ryanair of course have an interesting view on the flight
1230 FR 208 Dublin - Dublin ON TIME

[captplaystation]

Page 1, of 20. . . . . .
Not really a good time to mention it but I remember sitting at the holding point at SNN and seeing a Futura 800 rotating in front of us with a brief cloud of dust being kicked up in the area of the tail bumper. We reported this to ATC who passed on the message.
Evidently the Boeing checklist was too inconvenient to carry out at that stage and they continued on their merry way to TFS (if I remember) to replace the tail cartridge there I guess. . . Oh dear.
In this case the crew have done the right thing coming back, pressurisation probs or not, of course it helps if you dont thump your airframe onto the ground on rotation, but that is another matter and is a not terribly uncommon occurence regretably on the 800.

[DrKev]

Ryanair flight makes emergency landing in Dublin - National News, Breaking News - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/ryanair-flight-makes-emergency-landing-in-dublin-1473861.html)

[Dr. Gonzo]

They declared a mayday for that? Seems excessive

[kick the tires]

Last Updated: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 13:43Ryanair plane returns to Dublin after take-off incident
A Ryanair flight was forced to return to Dublin airport today after the back of the aircraft hit the runway during take-off.

The airline said "protective tailskid" at the back of the plane struck the runway as it took off and the pilot returned to the airport as a precaution.

A spokeswoman for the airline described it as a “tail-strike” and said it was quite common.

“As a precautionary measure the aircraft returned with oxygen masks deployed and landed safely in Dublin,” the spokeswoman said.

"All 148 passengers disembarked normally, were given refreshments and will be re-accommodated in the next two flights to London Stansted".

The flight took off from Dublin en route to Stansted at 11.40am and no one was injured.

© 2008 irishtimes.com


Rhodes13 says: Futurebreeze how about you stop making **** up! If he had a tail strike on takeoff they would not have pressurised the aircraft as it states in the QRH and would have thus returned to land at EIDW.

and now, hopefully, he'll explain why the airline spokeswoman said that the aircraft had indeed suffered a tail strike and then why the aircraft landed with the oxygen masked deployed!!!

That only happens:

a: when the cabin altitude goes above 14000 (I seem to recall) i.e. a depressurisation,

b: the crew manually deploy them.

Over to you Rhodes.........

PS as you berated Future breeze publicly, perhaps you will apologise publicly too!

[Rhodes13]

So how do you know the masks weren't deployed manually?

From the links our friend put up the highest alt the aircraft got to was FL068 hardly enough for a depressurization now is it? The diff at this level would be negligable thus the aircraft would essentially be unpressurized at that point.

As you said it could have been manually deployed or perhaps the masks weren't deployed. I see from the article on the newspaper its not a quote from a RYR rep but just a journalist perhaps taking some artistic license. Has been known to happen in the past!

But hang on lets judge the crew on what's posted on pprune. As a current RYR driver I'm sick and tired of amateurs posting on here telling crew how they should have done things and slagging a company off just because of its name.

In short no apologies!

[RotaryWingB2]

Slightly less excessive than the tailplane falling off.:eek:

They did the right thing I think.

[kick the tires]

Rhodes, I see your posting has been removed by you or the MOD's, just as well I copied it onto mine eh?!

Why would the crew choose to manually deploy O2 masks at FL 68??

And the article quotes ' an airline spokeswoman' not a journo as you claim.

Again, I've copied it, have a closer read........

[BladePilot]

Believe they also played the 'on time' fanfare throughout the cabin when it landed back in Dublin after a short sight seeing trip around the city!

Ryanair don't we just love them!

[Rhodes13]

A Ryanair flight had to make an emergency landing shortly after take off at Dublin airport today.

The flight, from Dublin to London, was forced to land at around 11.40am this morning and oxygen masks were dropped into the cabin.

The incident happened when the plane's tailskid touched the runway during the take off.

The plane was carrying 148 passengers at the time and no-one was injured.

As currently posted on the website of another newspaper. I see no mention of a RYR spokesperson there at all. Perhaps they are changing their story? Once again journalists haven't been known to sensationalise a story now have they?

Was I there no. Would I have followed the QRH checks yes. To quote from the QRH "do not pressurise the aircraft as structual damage may have occurred". So how can you have a depressurisation if the aircraft was never pressurised?

How about we let the facts come out? So far it looks like a tail strike with a return, nothing more nothing less. How about we avoid the sensationilst news reporting so loved by the media today?:ok:

[ROKNA]

They might have been over FL140

After the initial call, flight crew requested further decent and where cleared to FL80

Normal SID would be to climb to FL80 then typically cleared to FL230

[kick the tires]

Rhodes my dear chap, look at the article in the irishtimes that I reproduced on here and have already referred you back to.

A spokeswoman for the airline described it as a “tail-strike” and said it was quite common.

“As a precautionary measure the aircraft returned with oxygen masks deployed and landed safely in Dublin,” the spokeswoman said.


You are tying yourself in knots after you intial tirade!!

[Trent Steel]

Surely if anything that could possibly adversely affect the aircraft occurs on landing/takeoff the crew have to make the relevant people aware? Even if its a very minor incident there would surely be 'hell to pay' if something bad came of it.

[Rhodes13]

The question remains that would a crew knowing they had a tail strike climb to above FL100 even FL140 upressurised forgoing the normal pressurisation checks at fl100 and then the subsequent config alarm only to come back down to read the QRH that specifically states do not pressurise the aircraft?

Im fairly certain you would have felt the tail strike or been told by the tower. So kick the tyres are you suggesting culpability by the crew? Maybe the crew did deploy the masks? So what? Does that mean there was a depressurisation? Perhaps the crew deployed them as a precaution?

I don't want to judge the crew until all the facts are out and we aren't talking on hearsay. Or did I forget we should all listen to armchair experts?

[babymike737]

ASFKAP

:OHow to bring a thread to an end!:O


22 mins without a post. Superb!

:D

[G-CPTN]

oxygen masks were dropped into the cabin.Did they reach a high enough altitude for the (lack of) pressurisation to trigger the oxygen masks, or did the pilots activate the masks - if so, why?

[apaddyinuk]

Perhaps just the vibration knocked a few masks out of their stowages?

[kick the tires]

Rhodes,

I have never once, nor ever would, suggest any blame without the facts!

It was you, my friend, who suggested or rather stated FL68 as their level.

You also suggested that Futurebreeze should stop 'making **** up!', again this was wrong.

You also said the confirmation of a tail strike was made up by a journo, again this was wrong!

[futurebreeze]

Listening to RYR208 communicate with Dublin North ACC,im certain RYR208 ask for stop climb at FL160,then a return to EIDW & than MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY for RWY28

[talent]

"Did they reach a high enough altitude for the (lack of) pressurisation to trigger the oxygen masks, or did the pilots activate the masks - if so, why?"

My Question also. Seems strange, especially if they went to just 3000 feet to prepare for a go-around. Or did they climb beyond 10,000 feet and trigger deployment when they depressurized as per the check list??

Seems they were in the air for 20 mins. A bit lengthy for a go-around?

[Rhodes13]

Kick the tyres we seem to have our wires crossed. I never doubted the tail strike I doubted the sensationalist headlines put up by futurebreeze stating that there was a depressurisation.

No where does it state in any of the articles that there was a depressurisation. It does state masks were deployed and that there was a tail strike.

All I was saying was that people al la futurebreeze shouldn't post things like this unless it is confirmed (depressurisation). Proably doesnt help if he got it off a tracker website that states "TAIL STRIKE ON TAKE OFF","EFFECT ON ENGINE COMPRESSOR"?????,LOSS OF CABIN PRESSURE!!!!!!!!! And guess who it is posted by?

Thus the making it up part comes from the last bit and the title of his thread RYR depressurisation. Thats what I was referring to.

If we have crossed our wires I apologise.

[ROKNA]

They certainly got above FL80 as the second decent clearance given by Dublin was to FL80. Jet departures on a SID are normally cleared to FL80 initially and re-cleared to FL230 if heading towards Manchester

[Red Paddy]

20 mins is about average....you need to complete checklists and brief and set up for the approach. They probably entered a hold.

[lomapaseo]

They declared a mayday for that? Seems excessive

Well, what's the worse thing that could happen?

What in-flight evidence do they have available to confirm that it's only a ho-hum event?

Let the hindsight, rear-view mirror comments commence:)

[BFS101]

This is the way its been reported on the utv website...

Irish plane makes emergency landing - Local News - UTV Northern Ireland (http://www3.u.tv/news/LocalNews/index.asp?id=91026&sel2=1&sel=1&local=1)

[stadedelafougere]

They probably did well to land back at Dublin. Tail strike could severe the structure of the aircraft (and maybe compromise the integrity of the pressurisation panels).
Besides, it is probably easier for Ryanair to carry out maintenance in Dublin.

[AOB9]

You should hear the commentary on Irish radio...............MAJOR incident, crying passengers and all (not according to the passengers themselves though).:{

[glad rag]

Good for the crew to have the INTEGRETY to act in a manner that may (sorry WILL :ugh: ) bring them ridicule from their so called "proffessional" brethern.

[Kindle]

From a passenger friend who was seated three rows from the back of the aircraft: She described a 'small bang' on take off and then it became very cold as they climbed with a 'rushing wind' from the back of the plane. According to her they reached fl200 before going into a steep descent to Dublin at which point the oxygen masks (not all of them apparently) dropped.

RTE News (our national news broadcaster) just reporting the passenger complaints re oxygen masks on the 6pm news now.

[nippysweetie]

A colleague here was on the flight. Also reported the rapid drop in temperature, accompanied by sundry Hail Marys and not inconsiderable fear among SLF, panic in some instances. Then stewardess appeared and instructed passengers to use oxygen masks. Alas, masks had not deployed at that point, but did soon after, so that may answer question about whether deployment was automatic or not. Then a smell of smoke (more than likely from the O2 candles, though SLF wouldn't know that) and more distress among passengers.
Colleague's still calming down so let me caveat this with a 'caution' in case his recall is a bit off at this point.

[J.O.]

They would only deploy automatically when the cabin reached a pre-defined altitude. That does not always take place immediately, depending on the nature and the size of the leak.

[Sunfish]

Glad Rag:

Good for the crew to have the INTEGRETY (sic) to act in a manner that may (sorry WILL ) bring them ridicule from their so called "proffessional" brethern.

While I am sure that the crew are honest and full of integrity, their behaviour is regulated by company procedures, their training, and the applicable aviation laws and regulations. "Ridicule" is not a word or a concept that has any place in safe aviation culture

[A and C]

I am more than a little mystified as to why in this incident the cabin oxygen was used.

The Boeing check non-normal check list requires that if a tail strike is suspected the aircraft should be depressurised and a landing made at the nearest suitable airport.

The act of descending the aircraft will alone start the depressurization and will do it at a slow and controlled rate, with only 6000ft to descend to the point at which oxygen is not required surely it would be best to remove the pressurisation load from the structure slowly and save all the drama and expense of a mask deployment?

[Ex Cargo Clown]

After recent events I bet the Pax knew how to use the Emergency O2 supply !!!

[A330driver]

At least the crew did the right thing - unlike BRIT**** MIDLAND who flew onwards to Heathrow with a hole in the fuselage unable to pressurise. Just imagine the amount of Spurs being worn in that cockpit!!!

[AOB9]

Sorry guys, I'm not a pilot.
How would such a tail strike occur? I imagine excessive rotation or lack of power would cause this. I notice there are no comments on why this happened so I presume that despite the inconvenience it's not all that unusual.

[slip and turn]

OK I'll keep it simple this time to keep the mods happy:

Assuming the flightdeck was aware of the tailstrike, would it be appropriate for the aircraft to reach FL200 before a decision to descend and return to the departure airport was made?

[creamhain]

Don't need couch referees, when it happens to you, and you are in an unsure situation "err" on the side of caution

[djouce]

Ah the professionals eh bash RYR when they can, if it was another 800 operator would the tread be the same? These guys are the most professional crews in Europe perhaps the planet, so less of the 'Typical' RYR stuff. Oh I'm sure there are plenty of other airline professionals with opinions but have they flown the FR line??

[nippysweetie]

Ex-Cargo

Problem this time was that masks hadn't deployed by time passengers were told to put them on. A new twist on the debate about SLF and O2 supplies...

[corsair]

Listening to the ATC recording. There was an initial call '207 we need, eh 208. We need descent' and then a minute or two later a request for a further descent. ATC cleared him to descend to FL80 and asked if he required a continuous descent. This does imply the flight was above FL80.

It is too soon to speculate as to why the tailstrike happened but it's worth pointing out that it was windy and gusty at Dublin yesterday which is a known factor in tailstrikes.

[west atc]

Lucky it wasn't QANTAS, there would have been a full investigation by now and somehow the engineers would have got the blame.

It's so similar in Australia, we can have multiple turn backs due to hydraulics, pressurisation etc. but if it’s not QANTAS it doesn't make the news!

Time to move on or do we have to wait until the next return to catch the attention.

BTW not a Ryanair lover, just know that stuff like this is not unusual, I have seen much worse.

[Jet Fuel Addict]

Sorry guys, I'm not a pilot.
How would such a tail strike occur? I imagine excessive rotation or lack of power would cause this. I notice there are no comments on why this happened so I presume that despite the inconvenience it's not all that unusual.

Normal rotation on a 737-800 with flaps 5 (standard Ryanair) would leave the tail at a minimum of 51 centimeters of the ground during rotation. So there's not a lot of margin for error here. Overrotation, early rotation, flight spoilers deployed due to excessive into wind ailerons... or a combination of these things can all lead to a tailstrike.

(Also not selecting any flaps... but I don't think that was the case here...)

[rubik101]

Tail strikes on the -800 are not a common occurrence. However, having been sitting up front in an aircraft that had one some years ago in Germany, it is very apparent that you have had one. You can't hear anything of course but the stop in the rotation is quite evident.
If there was enough damage to prevent pressurisation, rather than just crushing the cartridge, then the hit must have been quite hard and most certainly would have been evident to the crew.
While the drill for a Tail Strike is not a recall checklist I would be most surprised if the aircraft flew much above FL 100.
Deploying the O2 would have been a precaution.
Speculation over......

[Otto Nove Due]

Climbed to FL200? How does she know that? :rolleyes:

[John_Mc]

Not a pilot myself, but I'm surprised there isn't a sensor built into the tailskid to indicate when a tail strike has occured?

Do any airframes offer this? Wouldn't imagine it would be difficult to implement...

[qzsedrftg]

not sure about ryr's but ours says do not pressurize, ie do not climb..

[CockpitThruster]

As already stated, tail-strikes aren't all that common but quite easy to do as there's not much margin for error especially if it's a bit gusty.

The flight crew would probably be aware of the impact, but there are no 'recall items' so they would focus on getting the aircraft cleaned up before referring to the non-normal check list which tells them to manually open the outflow valve and de-pressurise the aircraft.

Oxygen masks would not be deployed automatically unless the cabin pressure was above 14000ft, but I don't imagine the flight crew would conduct a manual de-pressurisation at this altitude. If the masks came down, it would probably have been triggered manually by the flight crew. Without wishing to speculate on why this was done in this instance, I would consider releasing the 'rubber jungle' if the cabin crew felt it was necessary (pax with breathing difficulties?) but as it would probably cause more panic, plus the heat and smell, I'd only do it if I felt it was the safest thing to do.

Bottom line: something 'non-normal' happened in flight and the crew acted in the interests of passenger safety and landed the aircraft. Well done.

[A and C]

Sometimes a tail strike is not apparent to the flight crew as it often only involves a very light scrape of the tail skid that is detected in the rear galley.

It usually takes a little time for the cabin crew to report this to the senior and then the flight crew to be contacted.

It is not unreasonable for the aircraft to reach FL160 before the climb is stopped. As has been said above the drill is to depressurize the aircraft but to do this by immediately opening the outflow valve is likely to compound your problems.

My aim would be an immediate descend and at the same time Slowly open the outflow valve so as to keep the cabin altitude slowly increasing as the aircraft descends and have the cabin reach zero Dif/PX at about FL80. this will avoid dropping the rubber jungle, passenger discomfort and additional expense to the company. I also complies with the non normal check list.

[Hobby Flyer]

Hear hear, the flightcrew acted impeccably, and completely by the book. Ryanair are getting a lot of publicity lately, but that maybe because their CEO courts publicity so much, and therefore a lot of journalists find him cocky, and can't wait to "take him down a peg or two." But his biggest nightmare, and the only thing that keeps him awake at night is the fear of a major accident. Safety is, has been, and always will be his number one priority.

[speedrestriction]

the flightcrew acted impeccably

What a load of nonsense; we have no idea whether they acted impeccably or not. How about we let the AAIB do its job and determine exactly what happened.

sr

[michaelknight]

Aircraft flown to STN this morning pressurised, O2 generators need replacing and a few life jakets ;)

Slight paint scrape to tail shoe, the cartridge was not crushed.

MK

[A330driver]

The skid and cartridge are there to protect the elevator jack assembly - they don't cover the full area that could contact the runway in the event of an over-rotate. It is as probable that the area in front of or behind the skid assembly will contact the runway dependent upon rotation rate, flap setting, C of G, etc.

[glad rag]

Slowly open the outflow valve

How do you do that then?

[reamer]

put it in manual and toggle the outflow valve to open.

[MayorQuimby]

What a load of nonsense; we have no idea whether they acted impeccably or not. How about we let the AAIB do its job and determine exactly what happened.

You mean AAIU.

[lgw_warrior]

Ok,heres what i think happened,
The tail strike occured on takeoff, un-detectable in the flight deck,possibly heard by the cabin crew or pax in the rear of the cabin, by the time the word had got to the flight deck (remember,locked cockpit door) also possibly inexperienced crew in the rear cabin, the purser found out, then passed it to the flight crew "the girl down the back said there was a small bang/scrape on takeoff etc" a light 800 will get up there pretty quick,possibly around 5 mins and your already upto 150.so the guys get the info,talk about it (CRM,PIOSSE etc) then decide to action the QRH checklist,which involves depressurising/limiting the cabin, possibly manually operating the out flow valve etc, a good dicision to manually drop masks if above 140.as far as i can tell, they made a plan, executed it and returned to base.well done lads. again ,it makes me really angry when armchair pilots come onto this forum and tell US what WE should be doing.We go in the sim every 6 months to keep current, and these are the kind of incidents we practise. again, well done fellas,good work.:D

LGW warrior

[lgw_warrior]

Also something else to remember,when descending with cabin depressurised,you must descend the aircraft at only 500-1000ft per min as the cabin will also descend at this rate,any faster and it will cause discomfort,i guess they descended in the hold somewhere near dub, hence the delay in returning to land.

lgw warrior

[iwhak]

Maybe delay was compounded by the fact CC could not speak English!

[Jet Fuel Addict]

Maybe delay was compounded by the fact CC could not speak English!

Que? :rolleyes:

[NIGELINOZ]

I think the phrase I'm looking for is "Much ado about nothing".
Nobody died,damage to the aircraft apparently minimal,crew appears to have acted professionally and correctly.In short.nothing to write home about.
In fact I'm surprised at myself for keeping the thread going.:O

[13Alpha]

Warning - passenger speaking.


The tailscrape itself was a complete non event, the cartridge wasn't crushed and the paint was barely scraped on the pad.......


Out of interest, at what point does a tailscrape become an event ?

13Alpha

[MrHorgy]

Out of interest, at what point does a tailscrape become an event ?

When MO'L bills my credit card for the damage :E

Horgy

[Vlad the Impaler]

With regard to the MAYDAY call being over the top, as an ATCO at one of london's finest I am constantly amazed at the continual under reporting of problems to ATC. I have lost count of the number of times that we get a diversion back which will be a "normal approach and landing" only to discover subsequently that there has been a hydraulic problem or some other issue which could turn into something much more serious. It is no good to me knowing that you have a hydraulic fluid leak ten minutes after you land and have contaminated the runway which I have continued to use. It is also not much use when your unreported minor problem becomes a major one on short final and by the time the outside emergency services get here (we get extra help for full emergencies and worse) the disaster has already happened.

I have seen a couple of instances where a "no emergency declared" diversion was unable to vacate the runway after landing. Great, thanks guys, let me just apologise on your behalf to the the four on approach behind you going around and the ten at the holding point most of which wouldn't have been there if I was expecting a problem.

I appreciate that there is a reluctance to discuss problems over the RT but we cannot help if we don't know. I would rather get the fire service out as a precaution every time than be caught out by something out of the blue that was deemed not important enough to pass on.

Rant over. Have a nice day.

[manrow]

You make a valid argument Vlad the Impaler.

Many pilots are too vain to advise you of having a problem? Shame

[captplaystation]

Whoops,
One thing to read/complete a QRH, quite another to think through/ challenge what you are doing and why.

[IcePack]

Vad a Mayday is supposed to be when life is possibly in danger not just a bit of Hydraulic Fluid on the Runway for F's sake.:ugh:

[lederhosen]

I am with captplaystation on this one (I think). The 737 QRH does not say depressurize the airplane. It says CAUTION: Do not pressurize airplane due to possible structural damage.

If the airplane already has a significant differential pressure, (at FL100 already around 4 PSI), opening the outflow valve could conceivably make the structural situation worse and if cabin altitude climbs high enough to trigger the masks will certainly ground the airplane till the oxygen generators have been replaced.

I accept that the crew may have been following the checklist in good faith. But their actions (if this is really what happened) do not seem to have been entirely logical.

[lederhosen]

If they were at FL150 as suggested earlier I think the differential would actually be a bit higher. I just happen to know the figures for FL100 as it is a personal check of mine to see that the pressurisation system is OK, equates to 1:20 if you think of the indicator as a clock. (Thanks to Pat Boone.)

I am not suggesting this is insignificant. Actually what I am mulling over is whether dumping the pressure at this point is serving a useful purpose. You already have put considerable strain on the structure,then you make a rapid change the other way. If it has been damaged is a rapid movement the other way such a good idea?

I think that the QRH was probably not designed with this scenario in mind. Rather it suits the more typical wrong flap and or speeds on a short runway, pull hard and bash the tail getting airborne, then return rapidly for tea no biscuits.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Well that was nicely done. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Training Capt thinks there's a problem so gives the climbing aircraft to a brand new FO as he removes himself from the flying and the comms. Whatever happened to "Fly the aircraft and make it safe"? Bung it into a hold at 6000'? No - do it Helios-style.

Training Capt can't talk to CC due to scratchcard sale priority.

Training Capt does talk to CC and establishes it is a scrape so levels the aircraft and de-pressurises it. At FL120.

CC panic and start running and shouting.

Pax follow suit and panic. CC tell pax to use oxygen masks that are not yet down. When some come down it is revealed that the CC don't know how to release the others.

Meanwhile the Training Capt is now doing the depressurisation checks and donning oxygen. The CSS is kicking against the cockpit door because the FD cannot hear the dings.

Training Capt declares a mayday. A/C return where emergency services are waiting with a pot of blue paint.

Now, most NN events can be done better when the events get scrutinised by the hindsight department, but is it just me or was this a complete shambles?

[Checkboard]

Not just you. One wonders what marks would have been given if the trainer had seen this effort on a LOFT in the sim.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Indeed. I was thinking a Command Assesment Sim. Not that a trainer would ever give something as simple as a minor tail strike (maybe at FR, I don't know) but if you responded with a performance like that you would be glued to the RHS for ever.

[ManaAdaSystem]

The QRH procedure for this problem is clearly expected to be done below 10000 ft.
The commander showed poor systems knowledge when he called for the tail strike QRH procedure to be done at 12000 ft. At least when I came to the outflow valve bit.
The first officer did not close the outflow valve (Loss of pressure procedure), so that indicates to me that he was aware these two procedures was actually working against each other.
The commander handed over control... Good call. Flying, analyzing, communicating, decision making, all together is not easy.
Confusion in the cabin. Multiple calls to don oxygen masks when no masks have been deployed.
Cabin crew hammering on the cockpit door. Good! Helios in mind, this is the way it should be. However, ordering the flight crew to release the masks?

I suspect the commander got into overload after the initial problems followed by cabin altitude warning, masks on, banging on the door, reports of smoke, request for masks, etc. It is very easy to end up in this situation. That applies for all of us.

The very thing that would have made his life easy on the day, and what I have been told numerous times in all the companies I've worked for:

If you suspect a tail strike or pressurization problems-Press alt hold.

[HundredPercentPlease]

The commander handed over control... Good call. Flying, analyzing, communicating, decision making, all together is not easy.


I would dispute this. Handing control over to the FO is good, but only after the pair of you have placed the aircraft into a nice stable condition. Monitoring a hold at clean speed at a middling altitude is easy for both pilots, so both can be involved in the subsequent process. This TC left the a/c with the FO as it busily rocketed skywards. The FO will be full time flying, while the TC loses track of it as he diagnoses and talks to the CC.



I suspect the commander got into overload after the initial problems... That applies for all of us.


Yes. So the lesson is to make sure that you give yourself space and capacity to resolve the problem. This is best done by shoving it into a hold at a constant altitude first. For nearly all non time critical problems (and very few are time critical) this is what every Capt would do. Just very odd that a training capt showed such poor problem management.

[Checkboard]

This TC left the a/c with the FO as it busily rocketed skywards.
Indeed - handing over the flying to an FO, who would have to be quite experienced to make a decision to change the aircraft's flight path while the commander was (at least mentally) "absent" from the process was a poor decision. Not so much "handed control to" as "abandoned the aircraft and flight management to".

[Pilot Pete]

Hobby Flyer the flightcrew acted impeccably, and completely by the book Care to add any further review of your previous comment now the facts are evident?

lgw warrior the guys get the info,talk about it (CRM,PIOSSE etc) then decide to action the QRH checklist,which involves depressurising/limiting the cabin, possibly manually operating the out flow valve etc, a good dicision to manually drop masks if above 140.as far as i can tell, they made a plan, executed it and returned to base.well done lads.....again, well done fellas,good work. And you too? Still think it was a good idea to depressurise above 10,000ft?

NIGELINOZ Nobody died,damage to the aircraft apparently minimal,crew appears to have acted professionally and correctly.In short.nothing to write home about. Yeah?

captainplaystation summed it up quite well before the report was published One thing to read/complete a QRH, quite another to think through/ challenge what you are doing and why.

Hindsight is wonderful, LEARNING from it is clever. Perhaps those who I have quoted above may like to learn something from this report.

PP

[WHBM]

From the report page 5.

"...the Commander attempted to contact the CSS. As the CSS was engaged in her after take-off announcements, it took some time for the Commander to confirm with the aft CSA’s that a tailstrike had occurred."

I think it should have been asked what the content of these announcements was. If they were trying to push the scratchcards etc at a key stage of flight when the commander may need to contact the cabin crew, then a prohibition on that should appear in the recommendations.

[Right Way Up]

or use the overriding function of the flight deck PA to get her attention.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Or a triple ding, or a combo of the PA override and the triple ding.

No - why not sit and wait, while the FO (on his first line flight after passing his line check the day before) watches the aircraft climb skywards... :D

[in my last airline]

So, a western crew with Danish and Irish licences get into an awful mess with a non normal checklist for the 737. Who is to blame for their apparent lack of capacity, SA and general knowledge? Why does such a simple problem blow up so quickly and dramatically. Someone said, smoke, banging on flightdeck door, communication problems and a virtual trainee in the RHS (although a very good one, I know) may have been contributory.
Stand back and forget the name on the tail guys, is this not yet another 737 pressurisation problem? Is this not another poorly written checklist trying to cover a poorly designed system? Or, are many pilots out there poorly prepared for non normal management of modern pressurised airliners. Should Boeing have written in the NNC - When the a/c is below 10,000 ft put the Press Mode sel to MAN ......etc
Let's face it, the dumbing down of training and checking standards by all the agencies involved is a contributory factor here. The box ticking checking for dummies guide is responsible here. Let's start training and checking like the old days again where one had to demonstrate a hell of a lot more airmanship and capacity than the current pathetic LPC/OPC stroll in the park. It could even be done nicely so people aren't offended I don't mind giving a little. Let's also see more stringent requirements for airlines to promote to the training ranks, it's far far too little in many outfits and it certainly isn't the best people that apply for those positions is it?
Let's make sure we don't take this report at face value, dig a little below the surface and it is quite obvious what is going on in this industry.
I should have just put Chesly's speach to the US Senate in here, he says it much more elegantly than anyone.

[captplaystation]

A surprisingly high percentage of Ryanair incidents seem to have involved the LHS being occupied by a trainer.

Whether this is due to the high number of trainers in the company, essential due to the fact that all new F/O's are Cadets and therefore higher than normal amounts of training are taking place in this company,excacerbated by the wildfire of expansion too , OR that very many LTC's are actually not "that" experienced, and are perhaps "encouraged" to bite off more than they can reasonably chew, whilst most of the old farts can't be bothered with the hassle for the meagre extra dosh on offer. . . well that certainly opens up an interesting line of discussion.

Would have to say, many of those who end up as trainers are not always the best qualified in the company, and don't always end up there for the best reasons.

[Aldente]

You have hit the nail on the head, in RYR it is possible (and it would seem quite common) for someone to move from F/O (senior) to Line Training Capt within 2 years.

I then have the "pleasure" of them on the jumpseat conducting my annual line check, giving me (a 15,000 hour Capt) the "benefit" of their vast experience !

RYR are just looking for people to be SOP "police" and to train another generation of SOP robots IMHO, and there is no shortage of young eager twenty something year old Capt's on an ego trip willing to do it .........


:*

[JW411]

Are you really trying to say that any LTC who gives YOU a line check must have more than 15,000 hours? If so, that is a fantastic theory.

A line check should simply be to ensure that the flight is conducted in a safe and professional manner and within and in accordance with the company SOPs. How many hours the LTC has in his or her logbook is irrelevant.

If you feel that you have been unfairly treated then have no hesitation in contacting your Chief Pilot.

[Quality Time]

As one of those trainers I would make no assumption about performance based only on hours.

On the other hand a 'good' high time guy is a pleasure to observe.

[Aldente]

From JW411

Are you really trying to say that any LTC who gives YOU a line check must have more than 15,000 hours? If so, that is a fantastic theory.

Not at all !!!, my point was simply that in RYR, everything follows an accelerated process, i.e. time to command and promoted to trainer just a short period after that. In many companies, F/O's spend 6 or 7 years in the left seat before command, let alone a training position. Spoke to a Capt recently who admitted in 6 years in the company (his first flying job), he had never had a diversion (wish I had that kind of luck !)

Your second paragraph kind of proves my point - they just need people to police the SOP's, experience doesn't seem to matter .........

And JW411, don't forget, LTC's are there not just to conduct checks, they are training the future Captains of tomorrow too, by passing on their "wealth" of experience ......

[in my last airline]

Not a problem to make up a LT with 5000 hours and a TRE with say 8000 as a JAR25 minimum (my opinion). But it's not their hours that should be governing. Their background, knowledge and enthusiasm are essential ingredients too. Someone said, they are simply SOP police and I would agree that 50% of the LTs are purely this. They have very little extra knowledge to impart beyond SOP.
To grow this particular airline, management have had to create a very strict set of teaching Do's and Dont's, they have limited quality applicants and millions of small bases with a limited gene pool. The 3500 cadet to captain applicant are good candidates to teach SOP so they're better than a direct entry guy from that point of view but that's where the problems begin. Instead of taking the high time, multi airline guy, that they barely know, they'd rather the other type. This is where my previous post comes in to play. All the agencies need to address this problem not just the airline. The brain drain is alive and well in many airlines. Good guys can't be bothered to train in an environment that doesn't allow you to think, punishes you for incorrect paperwork, doesn't accept that sometimes delays are caused due to training, attend 2 or 3 training meeting per year at your own expense, have your efforts scorned by all and sundry from within and outside the airline. In a nutshell you're on a hiding to nothing, apart from an extra £9000.

[JW411]

Aldente:

As a retired TRI/TRE I know very well what the duties of an LTC are but you were talking about your annual line check.

"I then have the "pleasure" of them on the jumpseat conducting my annual line check"....

[michaelknight]

Have a read!

Ryanair - Careers - Pilot Recruitment (http://www.ryanair.com/en/careers/job/10002) :yuk:

MK

[The Real Slim Shady]

MichaelKnight

I work with that pilot and can tell you that he is a first rate guy who has worked damned hard to become a TRE. He is an enthusiastic and very able instructor who has a vast amount of knowledge to pass on to cadets; his technical knowledge is astonishing and his commitment to instructing is beyond reproach.

Never confuse experience with ability: someone with 15000 hours may well have the same hour repeated 15000 times!

Perhaps someone with such a vast experience could explain to me why the military allow pilots with way less than 3000 hours, never mind 15000, to be flying and weapons instructors? If hours are so important why does the RAF have creamed off QFIs?

[wiggy]

Dare I say it, as someone who was in a fair position to help start WW3 with less than 1000 hours, and was a QFI with less than 2000 hours total... The RAF's selection and subsequent training process.

[JW411]

I quite agree; I was made a squadron training captain on 4-engined aircraft by Mrs Windsor's representatives with just over 2,000 hours in my logbook.

It would be fair to say that I was a "guided volunteer" at the time.

I had a long career as a trainer and I always followed the advice that I was given right at the beginning. Whatever you do, you must always be scrupulously fair.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Thanks guys, underpins my statement quite succintly. Ability, not hours, counts.

[Faire d'income]

The 'ability not hours' philosophy is even more stupid than the 'hours not ability' philosophy.

All other things being equal, such as ability, the higher hours pilot has a huge advantage over the lower hours guy. That does not presume though that the guys with higher hours is automatically better in any situation because that patently is not the case.

What is certain though is that the low hours guy with low ability, who presumes to be superior to his seniors, is a disaster waiting to happen. You will see (and definitely hear) him in every airline, though usually not for long.

[The Real Slim Shady]

That does not presume though that the guys with higher hours is automatically better in any situation because that patently is not the case.

Hence ability not hours.

[in my last airline]

Doesn't it take 6 months to become a RAF instructor vs 6 days to become an airline instructor?

[Faire d'income]

Quote:
That does not presume though that the guys with higher hours is automatically better in any situation because that patently is not the case.

Hence ability not hours.

And Literacy above ability. :rolleyes:

[stillalbatross]

Can't see how ability beats experience. Even if the guy is the smoothest operator he is going to be lost when problems arise that he has had no past experience to use to deal with them or fall back on.

Sounds like newbie talk.

[The Real Slim Shady]

So explain the career FO who never manages to cross over to the LHS?

Lots of experience, but?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Experience is vital, as is a modicum of ability. The two things aren't mutually exclusive in the make up of a decent pilot.

[The Real Slim Shady]

SAS, quite correct, however, ability always wins.

[spanner the cat]

TRSS

Career F/Os? Some never get a look due to seniority (or lack of). There are plenty of experienced pilots out there in the market now who would probably be suitable for upgrade in fairly short order yet Ryanair will not take them on. Ryanair are recruiting experienced DEC's presumably to improve the average experience levels in the LHS. Why not give experienced F/Os a look too - it's more likely to be F/Os out of work at the moment.

BTW, not sure that your military pilot analagy works. As has been pointed out, they are carefully selected and trained. Aside from those creamed off for a first tour training appointment, they will also have been in the flying game for a number of years before they are sent off to CFS. You aren't comparing like with like.


Spanner

[The Real Slim Shady]

Spanner, you are opening up a whole new can of worms there. Whether FR choose to take on experienced FOs or not is a management decision of theirs. In the recent past experienced people from other companies have been hired, however, the policy at the moment is cadet only.

Very few DECs are being hired compared to the 350+ cadets this year: the DECs fill the gap in the SFO ranks where suitable internal candidates are not available. In 2011 there may be no DEC recruitment as sufficient numbers of SFOs will be available internally; on the other hand, there may be a requirement for both DECs and direct entry FOs. Who knows?

The change of tack from the number of hours to the number of years is a natty sidestep: the military guys will get at best around 30 hrs a month, maybe more on ops these days, but certainly not the regular 850 a civilian accrues. I went to CFS with about 2200 hrs and apart from 1 other had the most hours on the course and years flying: that didn't make me the best though ( although I did win a trophy).

The LTC is not teaching basic handling skills a la QFI: he / she is honing certain skills, refining techniques, demonstrating via their application the importance of SOPs and teaching the practicalities of flying the line on a day to day basis. Everything from where the new cadet can find weather reports, to the suitability of certain airfields as alternates compared to others that aren't, to descent planning and energy management. Hardly the same as teaching Spinning 1 and 2.

The one big difficulty the modern LTC has is the lack of breadth to his / her experience as the business contracts and short haul guys stay short haul, long haul stay long haul: there is less movement sideways available. Equally, there are fewer ex military around to bring in advanced pure handling skills.

We are fortunate to have a balance of experience at FR: people who are ex military from many different countries, people with experience flying in different parts of the world, varied civilian backgrounds from corporate to widebody and many former civilian instructors: if you looked closely at the training departments of most companies you would probably find an equally eclectic mix, and that makes for balance, just as not focusing on the number hours a TC has, but taking in to account primarily their ability to teach and their motivation to teach is.

I always tell cadets that my way is not the only way of doing things: take the best information from all of the LTCs and distill and refine it. That is how we get better at this flying malarky.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Trying to compare a military instructor with an airline LTC is madness.

Military pilots are usually pretty good, the selection procedure ensures that, but what makes the real difference is the training that they are then put through. The quality and expense of military pilot training ensures a great "product". Thrown the same resources at civvies and you'd also get great results much of the time. Mil pilots were all civilians at some point.

This incident sounds like a total mess.

However good RYR's training and checking system is, I would be far happier to have the same system, but with more experienced people in the front seats, or at least people with a bit more experience than just an integrated course from Oxford and then a type rating.

I've trained many people in the past who went onto to RYR and the mix is enormous. We always did our job and moved them through, but many only just scraped it. I wouldn't have employed them myself though.
All airlines have a mix of good and bad people, that's just how it is and it's a testament to RYR's SOP's that there haven't been more incidents or any major accidents.

However, when the recruitment procedure does seem to focus on inexperience and the ability to pay, over and above the quality of cadet, then you are storing up problems for the future.

It's not rocket science to see this. I wonder how far this thing can be pushed before it breaks down and someone gets hurt?
Modern airliners are much more reliable and easier to fly than they ever have been, but they aren't immune from problems. Experimenting on how low you can push the pilot quality bar is at total odds to how I see a safe operation being run.

You should be pushing for the best you can get, not who's easiest to manipulate or the cheapest. Why employ a 250 hr cadet over an experienced SFO if it isn't to do with cost? It is absolutely naff all to do with the 250hr pilot being better, that is one thing that is certain.

I was a 250hr cadert once and I know how rubbish I was then (some might say that nothings changed...!)

Safety and cheapness ARE mutually exclusive.

[DX Wombat]

I then have the "pleasure" of them on the jumpseat conducting my annual line check, giving me (a 15,000 hour Capt) the "benefit" of their vast experience !
As someone who worked for many years in Neonatal Intensive Care [an area I'm sure you will all agree is also extremely stressful and meant I had the lives of others to protect] I have to say that your attitude worries me. I am aware that there are plenty of Know-Alls around and they can be particularly irritating especially when "giving [you] ..... the benefit of their vast knowledge" but you should never dismiss them out of hand or one day you may just miss the tiny, vital snippet of information which may save your life and those of your passengers. Just because someone has less experience, at least in time, than you do, doesn't mean they have nothing to offer. If you are that bothered about low time persons doing check flights why do you not become one yourself? My apologies if you already are.

[Bearcat]

this thread has gone way off topic.......wrap it up??

[The Real Slim Shady]

Safety and cheapness ARE mutually exclusive.

And the airplane you are flying was supplied by the lowest bidder.

Trying to compare a military instructor with an airline LTC is madness.

A point I did make but slightly less forcefully and with some amplification of the reasons why.

However, when the recruitment procedure does seem to focus on inexperience and the ability to pay, over and above the quality of cadet, then you are storing up problems for the future.

And easyjet will reap the harvest. Fortunately, Ryanair don't accept candidates on their ability to pay: the last group of cadets I was involved in training were excellent individuals and should make rapid progress to the LHS if they keep working with the same attitude. Additionally, judging by comments elsewhere about the number of sectors easy cadets get, 46, you may wish to note that FR sets the bar far higher at minimum 80.

The benefit of hiring a cadet is that you get a blank canvas: getting guys with X thousand hours to adapt to your SOPs is more intensive than starting from scratch.

[donnlass]

What would cause a tailstrike?

Rotating too steeply or too tail heavy?

:O:O

[Say again s l o w l y]

With only 2 manufacturers and the extremely rigourous certification procedure for civvy aircraft types, then I'm not too fussed about the lowest bidder malarkey.

If I was in the military then I think I'd be more worried about that!

The discussion about whether it is easier to train someone from scratch or to retrain is valid, however, most SOP's aren't a million miles from each other, at least not amongst the major European carriers. Even if you do revert to an earlier method, it should still be safe enough, though obviously not ideal in anyway.

A 250hr pilot from an integrated course has never really been in total command of an aircraft or had to make the major decisions themselves until they find themselves in the LHS of a high performance public transport jet.

Sometimes you do have to throw the book away and revert to your own experience. It isn't often fortunately, but this incident has highlighted that even in a relatively simple emergency, things sometimes don't run smoothly for whatever reason.

I assume these will be investigated thoroughly and that recommendations and changes to the working practises will be made to stop this sort of thing happening again.

I'm not going to get into a discussion about Line training flights. At my first airline job I was let loose after less than 20. There are other comments that could be made, especially when you look at home RYR pilots are renumerated before their final line check. Were one to be uncharitable, then you could argue that RYR want as many Line Training flights as possible, though I think that is total nonsense.

I have no concern about RYR pilots really. I know many and the vast majority are top notch and if they don't see a problem, then neither do I. However, this incident and a couple of others have raised a few questions about some of the practises in RYR.

I'm not RYR bashing, that is boring and unfair, I'm just having a discussion about issues that I find interesting.

[spanner the cat]

TRSS

I understand it's Ryanair's trainset.

The benefit of hiring a cadet is that you get a blank canvas: getting guys with X thousand hours to adapt to your SOPs is more intensive than starting from scratch.

Are you saying that once a pilot learns their first set of SOPs they aren't able to assimilate changes to those SOPs? I've flown different types and seen major SOP re-writes, and with applied use on the line it is a non-event (assuming the new SOPs aren't a crock). Perhaps an airline's culture is harder to absorb but SOP changes and development are part of the scenery at most (all?) airlines.

Back to the thread

Out of interest are your 737's fitted with the short field package?

donnlass
On the 737-800 a variety of reasons, the main one - rotating too quickly (more than 3 degrees per second). Some aircraft types even require a 2 stage rotation (not the 738 though).

Spanner

[Aldente]

From The Real Slim Shady
Thanks guys, underpins my statement quite succintly. Ability, not hours, counts.

So, getting back on topic, the PF who was a training Captain banged the tail on T/O and then it was a training captain who then initiated a depressurisation of the cabin !

I think the point that others as well as myself were trying to make is that some people are being promoted to training positions a bit too quickly for their level of experience that's all ......

There are no short cuts to experience, in life - it's a factor of time

[Checkboard]

Hi DX :)

Here a quote, from your good self, on another thread:

I was a District Midwife for many years so spent a lot of time driving around in snowy conditions during winter - this does not mean I think I know, or drive better than everyone else, it means that I have had more experience and don't panic at the sight of a snowflake falling from the sky or two of them piled up on top of each other.

.. that's all anyone is saying here, as well. ;)

[Say again s l o w l y]

Put your willies away chaps.

That's all very well having experienced Captains, but what about the "cadets" in the RHS? Wasn't it proved a very long time ago that too steep a cockpit gradient is bad? (Rhetorical question obviously.)

[graviton]

The commander in the event raised in this thread had in excess of 10,000 hours, doubtlessly gained over many years, so the point you were making was …?

“…the experience and ability shown by captain Sully and his crew on US air flight 1549,should be the norm not the exception…”

Unfortunately one cannot get Captain Sully’s experience without starting with none. He once flew with only 200 hours and little experience, perhaps he should have been stopped there and then!

I have not had the pleasure of seeing pictures of the cabin crew to whom you refer, but have witnessed cabin crew from many airlines including Ryanair. I have noticed little difference in their apparent ability with regard to “restling a potential bomber to the ground”. However I’m pleased to admit that I have never seen it put to the test.

I stand to be corrected, but I assume from your location that your knowledge of Easyjet and Ryanair has largely been gained from this website. Here there is an abundance of opinion, a scarcity of facts and an opportunity to hide behind anonymity whilst grinding an axe

A little more research into facts may allay some of your fears.

[have another coffee]

Nothing wrong with a good slamming match:ok:

I wonder, and worry, much more about the way people look at the job. I really belief pilots are worse prepared for their job in the current system. They know the freebees in the hotel by heart, but the implications of any decision made by them is an area for improvement. What happened to the armchair flying? Of all the stupid things I have done in my professional career 99% could have been avoided by thinking beforehand about them... I still feel :mad: stupid I didn't. Any crew thinking aloud what to do after a suspected tail strike or when the alt. alert sounds could have avoided the whole situation with the touch of a single button... The amount of experience doesn't count at all, just the quality (of the brain work)

:ouch: