PM flags major naval build-up

[wessex19]

Matthew Franklin, Chief political correspondent "The Australian" | September 10, 2008
KEVIN Rudd has foreshadowed a dramatic expansion of the Royal Australian Navy to counter a military build-up being bankrolled by Asia's growing economic prosperity.

The Prime Minister last night warned that nations across Asia were modernising their military forces, particularly with more powerful jet fighters and submarines, and that Australia must respond with its own upgrade.

In a blunt warning to the national congress of the Returned and Services League, Mr Rudd also said he wanted to use Australia's status as "a middle power" to promote comprehensive diplomatic engagement within the region and through the UN as a buffer against regional rivalries.

"We see a substantial arms build-up over time," Mr Rudd said in Townsville. "We need to be aware of the changes taking place. And we must make sure that we have the right mix of capabilities to deal with any contingencies that might arise in the future."

Mr Rudd did not name any particular nation as posing a specific military threat. But Australian and US intelligence agencies are known to be wary of the growing economic might of China and India.

And they have lately warned that China is building an underground naval base at Sanya, on Hainan Island, off its southern coast, with berths for up to 20 advanced nuclear submarines.

Earlier this year, the Chinese navy had at least 55 submarines, eight of which were nuclear-powered. Many were equipped with Yingji-8 anti-ship cruise missiles that can be launched from under water. It is believed there are a further 13 nuclear submarines in the planning stages. China announced in March it would lift its military budget this year by a record 19.4per cent to $63 billion, but Washington believes its actual spending is much higher.

Since taking power last November, Mr Rudd's Government guaranteed an annual 3 per cent real growth rate in defence spending until 2017-18 and has quarantined the department from budget cuts. He has been preparing a Defence white paper to be completed within months, as well as a national security statement expected to be delivered within weeks.

And the Prime Minister has pursued frenetic regional diplomacy, defying Opposition criticism to visit China, Japan, South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore.

Last night, Mr Rudd told the RSL that the Asia-Pacific region was so dynamic and included so many "flashpoints" that Australia could not bank on never-ending regional co-operation.

"The Asia-Pacific region will become more prosperous and its population will continue to grow," he said. "Militarily, however, as it has already become economically and politically, the Asia-Pacific will become a much more contested region."

By 2050, Australia's population would reach 35 million, while China's would peak at 1.5 billion by 2020 and India's would hit 1.8billion by the middle of the century.

"The demographic changes in our region will mean that by 2020, when we look to our north, we will see a very different region to the one we see now - one where population, food, water and energy resources pressures will be great," he said.

These pressures would add to those around pre-existing political fault lines, such as territorial disputes.

With North and South Korea still technically at war and China and Taiwan unable to resolve basic questions of sovereignty, increasing military spending was an issue of concern.

"As a general observation, the modernisation of Asian military forces is being characterised by significant improvements in air combat capability, and naval forces, including greater numbers and more advanced submarines."

Mr Rudd said Australia must therefore look to its own military resources and maintain a flexible land force able to contribute to "high-end military engagements".

"We need an advanced naval capability that can protect our sea lanes of communication and support our land forces as they deploy," he said. "And we need an air force that can fill support and combat roles and can deter, defeat and provide assistance to land and maritime forces."

Mr Rudd said the power of the US would decline relative to that of other nations in coming decades but that it would remain the world's only superpower until the middle of the century and maintain its "global leadership role".

He also used his speech to bring context to his foreign policy moves since taking office, stressing that his proposal for the creation of an Asian Economic Community with a role on security, not just trade, was tied to his determination to use Australia's status as a middle power to encourage regional security.

Likewise, he said, his proposed creation of an International Commission on Nuclear Non-Proliferation and Disarmament was part of an attempt to respond to the spread of nuclear weapons to more and more nations.

"Australia has the credibility and the drive to lead initiatives like this, in part because they are in our interest, but also because they make a positive contribution to the international community," Mr Rudd said. "But diplomacy must always be reinforced by a credible national defence strategy.

"We need to make sure that we have an Australian Defence Force that can answer the call if it is needed."

Earlier yesterday, Brendan Nelson told the RSL there should be a formal national apology to Vietnam veterans, acknowledging they were ill-treated when they returned to Australia in the 1960s and 1970s.

The Opposition Leader said Vietnam veterans deserved an apology for being subject to abuse and mistreatment on their return from service.

Within hours, the proposal was rejected by the Vietnam Veterans Association.

Vietnam Veterans Association national president Ron Coxon told The Australian last night Vietnam veterans felt they had already been honoured by the 1987 welcome home march, the construction of a national memorial in 1992 and the recognition of major battles such as Long Tan.

"I don't think he would achieve anything by doing that," Mr Coxon said of Dr Nelson's proposal. "They would be better looking after veterans in the claims process rather than apologising for it."


VSTOL maybe?????:suspect:

[tinpis]

Arnhem land indigenies on the CDEP equipped with high powered aluminium tinnies.

[lowerlobe]

high powered aluminium tinnies.
tinpis......You don't mean Red Bull do you?

[Roger Scramjet]

Australian and US intelligence agencies are known to be wary of the growing economic might of China and India.

Do you think? My toddler could have come to the same conclusion.

Intelligence agencies:yuk:

[Buster Hyman]

Lots of "we need", but no "we're getting" as yet.(ie; doesn't really match the articles title) Interested to see the White paper when it comes out...

[ozbiggles]

I look forward to what new toys Labor add.
I hope they are not going to try and lay claim to the 2 x LHD, 3 x AWD (more if they want), JSF (which they fought tooth and nail against and now acknowledge is the best choice), super hornets (which they fought tooth and nail against as well....but now acknowledge is the best interim) KC 30s, C17s, AWACs, Abrahms tanks, Tiger Attack helicopters, MRH 90s which are all or will shortly be in service.
I think all that is left is a mighty Caribou replacement and maybe new Submarines 10 years from now.....all while taking 10 Billion out of defence and not having enough people to run what the Defence force has now!
I look forward to BIG surprises.....really I do

[tinpis]

Stock Rudd ploy "Look over there !" to divert attention from the main game.
Nothing will heard on the subject again.

[wessex19]

my mail is the 4 remaining FFG's (HMAS sydney, Darwin, Melbourne and Newcastle) will go for maybe an extra couple of air warfare destroyers. Apparently the FFG upgrade programme didn't turn out the way Canberra wanted

[Point0Five]

... and let me guess, our super-duper new Navy will be: fitted for, but not with?

:ugh:

[ozbiggles]

and 2nd hand!

[Jabawocky]

Anyone think Keeping the Pigs is a good idea?

Long Range, Fast as :mad: and carries big bombs!

Also good for airshows and cracker nights on the river!

J:ok:

[Gnadenburg]

The navy has just released half a dozen 2FTS graduates who will not have to complete a return of service because of training bungling- Sea Sprites I gather.

How long before they are short of pilots? Couldn't they get funding to get these guys operational flying or training elsewhere?

The wastage is not worthy of a national naval build up yet. Give them Yank hand me downs like a 2nd tier Asian navy.

[Wiley]

You can almost guarantee that if (huge 'if') Kev actually does anything, (apart from talk about it), the kit will be:

- (it goes without saying) incredibly expensive
- one-off, (ie, no one else will have it, OR, be so out of date no one has it any more)
- totally unsuited to the task in hand
- arrive - five to ten years late after successive delays - with its main weapons systems either non-existent or missing some vital piece of hardware/software so as not to offend the Indonesians.

Anyone care to add to this list?

Surely the RAN's main current crisis point is manning rather than equipment? Why not get creative and do something similar to what the Yanks have been doing for years now and come up with a scheme where if a young man or woman goes into the Services for (five?) years, they can walk out at the end of their enlistment period and go to university or TAFE and have their HECS debt forgiven? Throw them a living allowance, even if it's only a small one, via some form of a scholarship as well - so long as they remain on the active Reserve for (ten?) years. For those not interested in going to uni, set up a scheme that converts the trade they learned in the Service to a civilian-recognised ticket.

Treat them well in the meantime and you might even find some will sign on and stay at the end of their first enlistment.

[Gnadenburg]

Wiley

That the Navy is letting recent graduates of 2FTS walk without a return of service shows the levels of incompetence. There will always be a manning crisis if they couldn't come up with something creative to retain these young blokes.

[teresa green]

Seems to me, if you want to invade a country like this, wiping out the massive power grids is all you have to do. Forget the three services, what the hell are they going to do when there is no power hence no computers etc. Batteries only last so long.......... Though why anybody wants to invade such a large country that is mostly uninhabital anyway escapes me, the Japanese gave up the idea in 44, and I imagine most other countries would think the same, other than nicking off with mining and fishing resourses ( and perhaps the Melbourne Cup) I don't really think we need to loose to much sleep, worrying about the Asians sneaking thru DRW in the middle of the night! This Asian invasion stuff has been going on since Pontius was a Pilot, and makes great vote getting stuff, if the pollies feel things are not going to well. Great idea for more subs, when they cannot get crews for the ones they have! This not a reflection on serving members, just on the silliness of trying to protect a country that is basically unprotectable, with resourses we dont have, and not likely to. We would once more have to turn to the country most hated by the loony left, the US of A, bleeting for help, keep our services as they are, and put the rest of the money into the kids cancer wards, that will be a far better investment.

[aussie027]

G'Day Jabawocky,
You are indeed correct. Keeping the F111s would have been an excellent idea to put it mildly. In deciding to retire them the Govt has effectively removed more than 50% of the RAAF s offensive strike capability.:ugh::mad:
See here for a huge amount of in depth info and analysis-
RAAF F-111 (http://www.ausairpower.net/pig.html)

As many articles on the ausairpower website state and demonstrate through their in depth analysis and as was proven by airpower advocate Billy Mitchell in the 20s and 30s, the aeroplane was then and is now the dominant military platform in almost every strategic scenario and in many tactical ones as well.
Since WW 1 this has been proven in practice in countless battles.
Without air dominance/superiority any land or naval forces are simply targets for any well trained and equipped hostile air forces.
Whilst we certainly need well equipped and much larger naval forces to protect Australias vast sea lanes and maritime approaches, without a very well equipped and numerically strong RAAF to provide air control over those forces they are totally vulnerable to hostile anti shipping missile equipped maritime strike platforms like those proliferating at an alarming rate throughout the Asian and Indian sub continents. :uhoh::eek:
Many of these types are vastly superior to our aging F/A-18As and even the soon to come F/A -18Fs.:uhoh::eek:
The above site provides many hours of detailed explanations that are easy to understand by military professionals /analysts as well as enthusiasts alike on a multitude of topics including those I have mentioned.
Pity more politicians and media people dont get better informed on such matters.
Cheers

[wessex19]

I know for a fact from my mate based at stirling that a navy 2FTS graduate has just been posted to recruiting in Perth!!!!:ugh: absolute waist of young talent!!! His/her RAAF and Army cousins graduate and go off to do what they love and are trained to do, navy put you behind a desk as a 22 year old!!!!

[Gnadenburg]

Some are leaving for GA- courtesy of the most expensive private pilot's license in the country. Luckily for them, 2FTS was government funded. :ugh:

[parabellum]

Right now they own six Collins Class subs. and have crew for three. Right now they do not have enough military qualified ATCOs and are in serious trouble.

This problem and an immigration problem could easily be solved though.

Announce National Service! Over half of west Sydney would be back in Lebanon over night. Young idiots would be learning a disciplined life and not have time for knife fights outside pubs at OhforChristsakeWhatTimeIsIt?

[oldpinger]

G'burg

The incompetence is not of the navy's making.

Add together an effective, yes effective training system that produces pilots regularly, aircraft being paid off (remember that seasprite thing), and Seahawks being upgraded and constantly at sea in the gulf and you get a non-functioning training pipeline At the moment!:(

If you can find enough room in the other services training pipelines- good luck!

We could always ask the Govt to pull out of the gulf.....

[slow n low]

Wiley,

Spot on, additionally:

- Will be tinkerd with by some project office to 'Australianise' said equipment, not to worry this will only take 6-12 months of meetings / consultations and engineering approvals..:* :ugh:

Oh, and expect another 'contractor' to bend ADF over the table and extract another few mil.

It blows ones mind to see just how contractors are sytematically ruining our aquisitions process. :hmm:


Rant over... I ll shut the door on me way out

[wessex19]

hopefully Department of defence can replicate the C-17 acquisition process within the RAN FAA. It all happened fairly quickly with the RAAF now learning how to get the most out of these machines with the help of their USAF mates.

[Agony]

Old Pinger,

I agree that it is not totally Navy's fault, but surely there is a huge portion that is .........

That pipeline probelm will not go away for a long time I would gather. MRH is just replacing SK50 and well.............what is there to replace SH2G ands S70B2.................oops thats right................nothing. Sorry I forgot about RMI:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[aviation_enthus]

I reckon it's great the government are putting this out. By 2050 we won't be able to count on the USA to come to our aid, let alone beat whoever threatens us. Australia will never be a superpower or be capable of defending ourselves from one alone. The best we can do is build our forces so we can give such a big sting larger countries will think twice before abandoning diplomacy.

And for all you who don't think there is a reason for invading Australia? Picture this scenario:

Big power (high pop, need for resources) seeks to obtain them from Australia, eg iron ore, uranium, you name it. Australia tries to remain neutral through the process but ends up having to pick sides. Larger power doesn't like Aus. decision so decides to invade to secure access.

Leave the major population centres alone and take an arc from Gove to TNK/Alice, down towards Kalgoolie or WA border. Cuts Aus in half and secures the majority of Aus resources. A major power would have the ability to defend a frontline that long and Aus forces may have to travel more than a 1000k's from a major centre to engage enemy forces.

Don't think it's possible? Japan in WW2 moved to secure oil and rubber sources after access was denied by the US. Also Sweden walked the fine line of neutrality in WW2 and ended up supplying iron ore to Nazi Germany.

At least having a powerful military (in the future) will give us more options.

[Trojan1981]

This all sounds really good, but the biggest investment Will have to be in retaining people. Despite reported events at 2FTS, the ADF is constantly understaffed in all areas. My last unit prior to transfer to the reserves was only 55% manned and far less of those personel were deployable.

At least the sounds coming from Canberra are positive. For a maratime nation we are looking a bit weak at the moment.

[Flyingblind]

Trojan, agree with your comment regards at least somethings happening.

I'm neither Left nor Right in Politics, but, the last lot made a lot of fairly good acquisitions regards hardware, some not so good. Lets not forget it takes years to purchase and introduce let alone man and deploy new kit, so the blame on Rudd & co by others is, i fell unjustified.

I'd like to give them the benefit of doubt and suggest that they are at least 'aving a go at fixing some of the issues from the last mob. Weather they get it right or not, time will tell.

Throwing more pay at serving members is not the bee all and end all, most, i feel would be happy to stay and serve for a while longer if it meant they were in a position to do what they signed up for. As a previous poster suggested, get some incentives happening, and for gods sake, get a decnet RAAF and NAVY reserve up and running.

Sadly, I feel none of the current issues will disappear unless there is significant cultural change, within the ADF,DoD and their political masters use (and expectations) of force.

Shiny new kit is one thing, having that kit maintained and manned by well trained,motivated and happy chaps is another.

[Wiley]

Probably sailing at high speed into thread drift here, but, unpopular as it might be to many, as an earlier poster has touched upon already, we (Oz) really do need to consider introducing National Service again.

It doesn't need to be military - although military national service should certainly be an option. It could involve anything from working in an old people's home, working as a teacher’s aide at a remote school, to labouring 'up norf' building roads or settlements (where such labourers might learn the rudiments of a trade).

But it's military National Service I'd like to discuss here. I know the military certainly don't want it, for it involves a huge outlay in already scarce SNCO manpower (i.e., constant basic training of ever changing recruits) and produces exactly what today's military DOESN'T need - rookie grunts or footsloggers with only the most basic military skills and none of the specialised technical and military skills the modern day soldier and sailor require - skills that take a very long time and a lot of expenditure to acquire.

However, what it would achieve is perhaps well worth whatever cost and effort it would impose on an already overstretched military. It might go some way to melding some of the young men (and women?) of the many disparate ethnic groups that make up today's Australia (just as the 1960's-70's Nashos did - ask anyone who did it). It might impose (inflict?) some discipline and skills on some of the 'yoof' of all cultural bents within Australian society.

And if the right incentives were to be offered, (see my earlier post), many might choose to accept a longer period in the Service (and an even longer period in the active reserve) if they were to be offered the chance to learn skills that could be transferred to a civilian ‘ticket’ after they left the Service OR be offered a ‘no HECS’ university education after completing ‘n’ years in the Service. (Alternatively, graduates who already have achieved their degrees would be forgiven their HECS debt if they agreed to stay on the Services for a similar period.)

Just as occurred with the Nashos of forty years ago, some would chose to stay on, a few even making a career of the military. But even those who left after serving just the minimum period would offer the country an invaluable resource – a disciplined, trained reserve, available for callout for national and natural emergencies. And perhaps just as importantly, young men and women from the ghettos that have become so entrenched in some areas of our two major cities might get to mix with (what they pejoratively call) ’Aussies’ and both sides might discover that they have more in common and are more alike than many think they have/are. And some of the barriers that some of the elders of some ethnic communities seem keen to maintain might start to crumble, even only a little bit.

End of sermon.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

I spoke to a couple of mates of mine recently about the problem of retention in the ADF and they were both pussers who did 9 and 12 years respectively. They both gave the same answer, pensions. If they had the ability to get the pension they would have done the extra years. We all spent money training these blokes who were good at their jobs and committed to the navy. They are the people we need to keep.

Kev will talk the talk and like The Hollowmen shows, the public service and the costs will give us a half assed solution. Who commissioned the sea sprites? It's like a virus this strange spending.

[Code3]

Wouldn't it make more sense to loan these new 2FTS grads to the RAAF/Army to gain some flying experience until the Navy requires them?

[Trojan1981]

and for gods sake, get a decnet RAAF and NAVY reserve up and running.

I agree.

The ADF can not pay enough to retain those who are chasing higher pay and and more control of their own affairs. I believe these people would stay on however, if there was a decent, structured ADF reserve. Valuable corporate knowledge and experience would be retained.

I think this is especially relevent for the RAN.:ok:

[oldpinger]

Code3- done already I gather!

Although the similarities between a C130 and a Seahawk are a little limited, so not a massively good option in the long term.

[PLovett]

Too all those who cannot think of anything other than Australia is at risk of being invaded for its raw resources let me quote a very old adage that is universally recognised:

It is cheaper to trade than invade

The real risk to Australia is that its trade routes can easily be controlled by control of SE Asia. In other words, you don't need to invade Australia to dominate it, just control its external links. That is the risk Australia must address.

[Gnadenburg]

oldpinger

The recent 2FTS graduates are off to civvy street with their million dollar private pilots license. The Navy offered release.

It is kind of ironic that the headline news was of a Navy not being able to retain key personnel.

I am sure the ADF will eventually need these young fellows- and the Navy will have to ramp up its pilot numbers in the future.

Why is there no creative option? An exchange with the army? An exchange with an allied military where we pay for their conversion? A fast jet endorsement on Hawks from Canada so they can fly Fleet Support- whether Hawks or civilian contracts?

Evidently the RAAF has no capacity to take these fellows.

I don't know. It is just an absolute waist of money releasing them. Can't be good for morale either.

[spanner90]

Perhaps the ADF should "lend" the surplus pilots to one of our regional carriers who is having difficulty retaining pilots. At least this would maintain the skills already developed, and keep regional services flying.

On another front, while the C17 acquisition process was done in the blink of an eye. Perhaps you should investigate what level of support is carried out in Australia, by Australians... The answer, well we wash the windows, and sometimes fill 'er up. The rest goes back to the good old US of A!

Any acquisition needs to look at through life support, local industry involvement, and end of life disposal.

It's just a pity that sometimes the people working on these projects are only planning their next promotion, posting or career after next.:(

Spanner

[OZBorn]

Lend the surplus pilots to regional airlines? Let's not forget that these young individuals were motivated to train to become naval aviators. If they had wanted to fly for Rex or whoever, they could have and would have. Their interests are what is important here since the Navy has completely dudded them and not fulfilled their side of the bargain. They should be entitled to leave and do what they want now. Yes, in a couple of years time the Navy will be screaming for pilots as the inevitable cycle goes full circle. Right now though they have nothing to go to in the RAN or the RAAF (The RAAF has just cranked up IFS again so most graduates are looking down the barrel of a 6 months holding pattern before an operational conversion.) I understand the Navy graduates were offered Army positions but told they had to go green and not stay in a white uniform. I don't blame them for turning that down either. Unfortunately, with the limited hours that they have at the moment they don't have too many well paying options despite their excellent training that they have received.

[teresa green]

Wiley, just a gentle reminder that the rookie grunts and foot sloggers, were the very blokes who fought like demons on the Kokoda Track. Your idea is great, but where are you going to get the Warrant Officers to deal with the rabble you are going to get? Some of them already with half cooked brains from drug taking, no discipline in their lives (probably never has been) no respect for anyone or anything (if you think im overeacting come up and have a look at schoolies week on the Gold Coast) and these kids have at least a education, but not much else, obviously not all kids are like this, but it is fair to say that with the lack of parenting, the failing legal system, a underpowered police force in all states (gone are the days when the local sargent kicked you up the ar#e for breaking windows) (and with your parents grateful knowledge) believe me I know, (I still haven't forgotten the kick I got from the police in NTL after being caught firing lemons thru windows with my trusted catapult, in the 50s,) now the coppers would have been dragged thru the court by my indignant parents for "ruining" my life and health, but a amount of compo might make them get over it!! And you expect the services to take over where the parents and the do gooders have failed, and turn these feral kids into service personnel is a huge ask, just policing the drugs going thru the barracks would be difficult, a sad reflection on society as it is now I know, and we want to hope this country does not need defending, because the youth of today are very different from the two previous wars, they are soft and always aware of their "rights" taught to them by a left wing socialist teachers union, who have now had it turned on themselves by some schools having to hire security guards to protect these very same teachers. But they still don't get it. And now the parents and education system has failed, now hand the whole horrible social mess over to some poor hapless WO, to try and turn these kids into productive adults is a huge ask. My rant over.

[Wiley]

I can't find fault in your analysis, teresa, except to say that (I think it was Aristotle or one of 'them Gricks' way back then) wrote that the modern generation in his time were a bunch of hopeless wastrels who couldn't/wouldn't get orf their collective fat arses to save themselves etc. (And I certainly recall our parents' generation saying the same thing about us, the Boomers.)

I agree the Army doesn't have the manpower, especially in the vital SNCO area, to handle even a relatively small selective service system (as was foisted upon our 'hopeless' generation back in the 60s-early 70s). And look how they turned out? Long Tan and Firebase Coral/Balmoral spring immediately to mind.

If a new Nashos system was to be brought in, it would end up as a selective service system by default, as a huge percentage wouldn't pass the most basic physical testing, while another relatively large percentage would find pressing reasons why they had to return to Lebanon and elsewhere (but with their Oz passports safely stored away so they could demand free repatriation should things get a little sticky 'back home' again).

If we reward people who complete this national service, and reward them generously, with perks like the ones I've already suggested above, it could become something clever young men and women would seek.

[tinpis]

they could demand free repatriation should things get a little sticky 'back home' again).

You fergot the public housing :hmm:

[Trojan1981]

Actually, Teresa Green, your analysis describes a lot of people I met while in the Army:rolleyes:.

Drug taking, drunken violence, deliberate destruction of property, assaults (GBH even), drink driving and the odd over-dose. I even knew one bloke who decided to shoot at passing cars at RAAF Richmond with his paintball gun until he was inevitably arrested!

[slow n low]

code3/oldpinger,

The Navy fella's won't get a great deal of flying in the green, dare I say it most of us junior guys are 'current' but not 'proficient'. Barely enough ROE to share the love as it is. :rolleyes:
Less than 200hrs per year... yeah I am ready to deploy..:hmm:

nuff said, I ll get me hat....

[teresa green]

To true Wiley, each generation has had the same thing said about them, but the difference is drugs, parents who change partners every few years, and the do gooders who protect these little Shi%s in what is known as the court system (for want of a better word). I don't know about you, but I loved my old man, but he would belt the shi% out of you, if you treated anyone without respect, and it did me no harm. The world cannot stay the same, but surely the basic principles can, to treat others as you would like to be treated. Up here on the Gold Coast things are going from bad to worse, the kids destroy for the sake of destroying, cars, gardens, public parks, boats, you name it, they will do it. Why? They would be prime subjects to put into national service, to learn a trade, to learn respect, to learn bush survival, but mate it would be like trying to teach a fish how to ride a bike, they have no fear of the law, in fact they hurl insults at the police, and anybody else who gets in their way, some of them as young as ten. Some carry knives, and chains an essential item for going out on Fri night. I am generalising of course, and there are many great kids here to, but you don't get to hear about them, but the local news every nite makes you want to go bush. Fair dinkum.:uhoh:

[Captain Sand Dune]

The Navy fella's won't get a great deal of flying in the green, dare I say it most of us junior guys are 'current' but not 'proficient'. Barely enough ROE to share the love as it is.
Less than 200hrs per year... yeah I am ready to deploy..

Are you Army mate? I thought they were flogging you guys to death!:confused:

If you're Navy, well nuff said!:(

[Stationair8]

Kevin Dudd just wants to have an aircraft carrier named after him -HMAS Kevin.

The more I watch the TV series The Hollowmen, the more I realise it is very close to the truth.

[Like This - Do That]

...but where are you going to get the Warrant Officers to deal with the rabble you are going to get?

I agree the Army doesn't have the manpower, especially in the vital SNCO area, to handle even a relatively small selective service system

Having just left training command, where we had a perennial shortage of good senior CPLs & SGTs, and posted back to LAND, I am overjoyed to find that we have (drum roll please .....) a shortage of good senior CPLs & SGTs.

YIPPEE!

Let's hope the gummint addresses retention before they buy anything else they have to fit for but not with ....

I mean REALLY address retention, not just throw $20k bonuses at a few jobs they think might leave soon. Put everything on the table, work practices, work locations, stability, boarding schools, spouse employment, part time work, EVERYTHING.

[Trojan1981]

I mean REALLY address retention, not just throw $20k bonuses at a few jobs they think might leave soon. Put everything on the table, work practices, work locations, stability, boarding schools, spouse employment, part time work, EVERYTHING.

Absolutely agree.:ok:

Defence members represent a cross section of the community, with the same needs and problems. Lifestyle issues desparately need to be addressed.

[slow n low]

Captain,

Yep I am Army, no I am definately not getting flogged to death. There are a very select few who get a reasonable amount of hours...Those on operations (for obvious reasons) and a handfull of others (including QFI's)
:cool:

[Deaf]

Flogging to death costs money.

That was the issue when the army sold Beazley on the advantages of taking the RW. No need for all that expensive currency stuff, truckdrivers don't need it.