Private Pilots License/IMC and PPL Theory

[Scoobster]

Folks,

I know I should really do a search on this so apologies in advance..

I have a couple of questions regarding PPL and IMC.

1) Can a UK IMC be issued on a PPL gained in another state? e.g. Greece, Spain, France etc.. I assume the IMC will only be valid in UK airspace...?

2) Can the PPL theory exams be taken as separate modules i.e. Air Law or do you have to do them as the complete package i.e. 6 exams and where can these be taken?

3) If the theory is taken in the UK can you do the flying portion in another member state i.e. Greece.. or must you take the theory in Greece?

Thanks

Scoobster

[Shunter]

1) No. Has to be a UK issued PPL, and it's only valid in UK airspace as it's not an ICAO compliant instrument rating and therefore only has national scope. What it does do however is allow you to fly VFR on top in France, a privilege conferred by the standard French PPL.

2) Technically yes, but it's a bit of a pain tranferring records between schools. You can take the exams at most flying schools.

3) Good question. It would seem sensible to take the exams in the country in which you intend to do the flying though. The content will be consistent with said country.

[vanHorck]

The IMC is a valuable addition even when flying outside UK airspace. For one it allows you to fly VFR on top in France, something you are not allowed to do with a CAA PPL.

More importantly it makes you a better pilot for the day when you are hit by the get-home-itis and you end up in trouble......

[Scoobster]

It would probably help if I explained my intended actions in a bit further detail -

I plan to do the PPL in Greece and wanted to bash out the PPL Ground Exams before going out there, as there is a lot of material in the ground exams I thought that once I have finshed studying for a particular subject, it would make sense to take that relevant exam.. I.E 1 Week Air Law, 1 Week Nav etc...

Is this possible? Or do I have to batter through the exam as a whole package?


What implications would a Greek issued PPL have for a UK IMC? - and if I have a Greek issued PPL will I be able to get an IMC on it?

I haven't started the training yet, so I thought it would be sensible to ask first as to whether its best sticking with the UK if it will complicate matters!

[BEagle]

JAR-FCL commercial licence theory exam questions are drawn from the central JAA question bank. However, JAR-FCL PPL theory questions are not - they are adminstered at national level.

Thus there is no guarantee that a pass in the JAR-FCL PPL theory exams sat in the UK will be acceptable by the Greek authorities - you MUST check with them first or face the prospect of sitting all the exams again.

Even if the Greek authorities will accept a pass in the JAR-FCL PPL theory exams sat in the UK (which, frankly, I doubt), can you honestly imagine any UK RF welcoming you in with open arms to sit the exams, only for you to disappear off to Greece to do your flying? I would unhesitatingly charge the full CAA rate for anyone trying that on!

[Scoobster]

Ok, well that clears things up somewhat a little...

I am still trying to work out all the rules regarding JAA Member states and uniformity etc, so you will have to forgive me for any errors/inconsistencies..

So the PPL is confined at National Level, fine..

I have already started studying for Ground Exams using OAT PPL CBTs so I want to get the so called 'rules' clear instead of messing this up and the PPL being of no use!

Ok my other questions in black and white (hopefully!) are:

1) If the PPL ground exams are done in Greece and the flying is done in Greece it is a Greek issued PPL. We are agreed. Therefore to have a UK IMC on it, what would be required?

Can the Greek PPL be validated by the UK CAA and have a UK IMC placed on it via the validation or is the rule simply ' to have a UK IMC, the PPL must be studied for and passed in the UK' ?

I have found a good school out in Greece with a good instructor, therefore which is why I am banging on about Greece, combined with whether etc, whilst out there I also hope to get my Class 1 medical.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

Scoobster

[BEagle]

See the following section in LASORS A8:
Procedures for holders of JAR-FCL pilot’s licences to transfer state of licence issue to the United Kingdom

Note also the following from LASORS E3.1:

The IMC Rating is a national rating and can only be
endorsed onto a UK or JAR-FCL aeroplane licence.
The CAA will only add an IMC Rating to a UK issued
pilot licence. When you are training for the issue of a UK
Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) you must
follow a syllabus recognised by the Civil Aviation Authority.
Training for the IMC rating is permitted outside the UK in a
non-JAA state provided that the flying training is conducted
by an organisation that is fully approved by the UK Civil
Aviation Authority for such purposes. Instruction on the
course may only be given by an IRI or a flying instructor
who is qualified to teach applied instrument flying.

[IO540]

What it does do however is allow you to fly VFR on top in France, a privilege conferred by the standard French PPL.

Not quite.

What the IMCR does is it removes the UK CAA's requirement to be in sight of surface when VFR.

This removal is not restricted territorially i.e. it is valid worldwide - not just in France.

Nearly all countries do not have the UK requirement to be in sight of the surface for VFR.

[BackPacker]

Can the Greek PPL be validated by the UK CAA and have a UK IMC placed on it via the validation or is the rule simply ' to have a UK IMC, the PPL must be studied for and passed in the UK' ?

No. First of all you need to do the Greek JAR-FCL compliant theory exams (presumably these are in Greek!) and the Greek JAR-FCL compliant skills test (probably with a Greek-speaking examiner). This will give you a JAR-FCL compliant PPL which is administered by the Greek authorities.

Assuming you live in the UK more than 180 days a year, you can then trade in this Greek-administered JAR-FCL compliant PPL for a UK administered, JAR-FCL compliant PPL. This will cost you nothing more than an admin fee. Follow Beagles link.

There is one advantage to this and that's that on that UK administered PPL you can add an IMC rating, which you cannot add to a Greek PPL (because the Greek have no idea what that is).

But the disadvantage is that the ANO limits your PPL (sans IMC) a bit more than the original JAR-FCL regulations. Whereas JAR-FCL is quite happy to let you fly VFR-on-top, the ANO is not. You can only fly VFR-on-top once that specific restriction on your PPL is lifted, and that only happens if you have an IMC or IR.

The no-VFR-on-top is a restriction placed by the ANO on your PPL so that restriction is also in force in countries that normally allow VFR-on-top for their PPLs and their airspace. For instance France.

There's also an alternative solution. You can do all your theory exams plus the R/T practical in the UK. You then go to Greece to learn how to fly. Make sure all your flight hours are properly recorded in your logbook, including exercise numbers, signatures and so forth. Then do the skills test in the UK. This saves you from having to pay license issue fees twice.

[IO540]

Does any country ban VMC on top flight under VFR in its airspace?

I don't think anywhere in Europe.

In Europe, only the UK has imposed the in sight of surface requirement but that is on a UK issued PPL. It's not an airspace rule.

[Scoobster]

AFAIK, the school is a has recently acquired full approval from the UK CAA to conduct flying training as a registered and approved FTO (I am not sure about IMC at this stage and will know more later). They have also acquired a new fleet of aircraft.

The instructors are all English Speaking (and I mean from England - English speaking - not international English!) and they have 330 days of flying weather a year, so it would be a case of getting the training out of the way in 4-6 weeks rather than the long months it would most likely take in the UK due to the adverse weather conditions etc..

Backpacker - To do the theory exams and R/T practical in the UK, that would mean taking the exams at a CAA Regional Test Center and as BEagle mentioned it could rub off the wrong way with certain schools! - Just wondered if there is provision to sit the exams directly with the CAA at LGW? or alternative?

The alternative solution sounds good!

Could you guys just clarify by what you mean regarding "VFR on top"?

Cheers,

Scoobster

[BackPacker]

VFR on top means flying above a solid cloud layer, but in clear air.

On the one hand it is very comfortable. Sunny, normally no turbulence and everything, on the other hand navigation based on ground features is, well, sort of impossible so you have to use radio navigation or GPS, and you have to have a plan to get down eventually. Of course, without an IMC or IR, you cannot legally descend through the layer so you have to be pretty sure the layer eventually opens up.

And you need to think about an engine failure, which will force you to descend through the layer (temporarily being in IMC), possibly without the use of your artificial horizon (depending on its power source - usually vacuum) and with no way of knowing what's below.

If the school in Greece is CAA approved, it would show up on the CAA standards document eventually. I don't have time to check the link right now but it sounds very promising.

[2close]

Just to clear up Scoobster's post, the school concerned is a HCAA approved FTO and not UK approved and has no UK CAA approval to conduct IMC training.

According to the HCAA website, PPL theory examinations appear to be sat once a month at a centralised location and not at FTOs or RTFs. The exams are computerised, multiple choice exams, similar to the FAA system, but it is unclear whether there is only one exam encompassing all subject areas (as per FAA) or separate exams. The latter would seem quite laborious if an applicant were only permitted to sit one subject per sitting, as it would take many months, with significant expense for applicants travelling repeatedly to sit exams.

But then again, remember that GA is a new concept to Greece, where the only flying generally recognised is military and commercial! People flying for fun???? What's that then???? At a recent IAOPA conference, Greece announced its wish to become the Florida of Europe. This was reported in the AOPA General Aviaiton magazine.

[SNS3Guppy]

Does any country ban VMC on top flight under VFR in its airspace?


In the USA, and countries which have modeled their regulation based on FAA regulation, VFR-on-top is an IFR clearance, and requires an instruement rating, an IFR compliant aircraft, and operation on an IFR flight plan.

VFR over the top, however, isn't...and is perfectly legal. In the US, there's no prohibition againt flying under VFR without an instrument rating, provided one has the requisite cloud clearances (distance from clouds) and visibility met. The irony is that this enables a pilot to fly under instrument conditions (eg between layers with no discernable horizon, or at night with no moon or references. In my opinion, a clear shortcoming in the reguirements of the regulation, which the UK has addressed and the FAA has not.

[IO540]

remember that GA is a new concept to Greece, where the only flying generally recognised is military and commercial! People flying for fun???? What's that then????

That's very inaccurate. There is a healthy GA scene in Greece, though - as with much of southern Europe - running at around 1-2% of the activity in the busiest bit of Europe (the UK). It could be a lot bigger, especially given the obvious utility value in Greece.

[Contacttower]

Does any country ban VMC on top flight under VFR in its airspace?

South Africa I believe....the definition of being VFR includes in sight of the surface (nothing to do with licence restrictions like in the UK)

[2close]

"Remember that GA is a new concept to Greece, where the only flying generally recognised is military and commercial! People flying for fun???? What's that then???? "

That's very inaccurate. There is a healthy GA scene in Greece, though - as with much of southern Europe - running at around 1-2% of the activity in the busiest bit of Europe (the UK). It could be a lot bigger, especially given the obvious utility value in Greece.

My bad!:ouch: Fair point, I shouldn't have used the word 'new', more like 'fairly uncommon', this being based on the recent AOPA articles, to quote:

"The idea of an air show is foreign to most Greeks - planes are either military, in which case you don't go near them, or civilian, in which case you get into them to go on holiday. The idea of flying for yourself simply doesn't cross most Greek minds"

"GA has been ignored by the public, the government and the authorities".

"Greece has a long way to go but it has taken the first and most important steps"

The articles, whilst admittedly very positive for future intentions and developments, which I wholeheartedly support, seem to indicate that there is indeed a long way to go but this shouldn't deter the HCAA and national AOPA from making in-roads to welcome, seduce even, the aviation training industry and students into its airspace and country with its wonderful islands, climate, food, beaches and warm, welcoming people. The same articles report GA hours increasing by 50% last year, which is an excellent move. I just hope other countries support their moves without it becoming overly bueaucratic.....or am I hoping for too much there?

[IO540]

A few people in Greek GA did a huge and admirable job organising the Aero Expo thingy at LGTT, even dragging Phil Boyer from the USA to make a speech about how easy things are in the USA, with GPS approaches into non-towered airfields. The contrast with the speaker next to him (a Eurocontrol man, pontificating how GPS alone is not to be relied on and we will all have to use Loran or INS as a backup in PRNAV airspace, how there are NO freqiencies left and we must have 8.33 down to ground level, etc) could not have been greater..... Martin Robinson was in the audience a few yards from me.

With a bit of luck, the attention which this event attracted might just make a difference. I certainly hope so.

There are of the order of 200 GA planes in Greece, and as you can imagine most of the pilots know each other.

There are probably as many private jets and turbine helis - you can see where the money goes.

That press release obviously wanted to make the situation look dire. But it is true that GA is largely ignored. The airports often open only for a few hours to allow a commercial flight and then close. Most have no avgas. The bureaocracy is silly, with several different forms having to sometimes be filled at different offices. There is also some corruption. And then you get places like Hania LGSA with 5 days' PPR for both arrival and departure - except SX-reg at weekends.

No doubt Kyprianos will be here in a minute to fill in the details :)

Back to the subject though - I believe there is a CAA approved school in Spain - a far better place to train than the UK if you are doing it as a full-time block

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:)

[LH2]

I believe there is a CAA approved school in Spain

That would be a UK registered facility, yes, that's where I gained my PPL. But the outfit near Kavala in northern Greece where the original poster intends to train should be just as good. I met one guy who did his PPL there and he was very pleased. Exams are in English (Greece being one of the few countries where you can do your PPL in English) and of course so are communications with tower.

Exchanging your Greek PPL for a UK one should be just a simple administrative procedure (with some money changing hands between you and the CAA for a change). In any event, from Beagle's LASORS' quote, it follows that you can have an IMC issued, it will just go in a separate bit of paper and not on your licence, just like a French national qualification does not go on your British PPL.

[BEagle]

The CAA will only add an IMC Rating to a UK issued
pilot licence.

So how on earth do you think that anyone 'can have an IMC issued, it will just go in a separate bit of paper and not on your licence'?

You want an IMC Rating - you need a CAA-issued licence.

[LH2]

Beags,

So how on earth do you think that anyone 'can have an IMC issued, it will just go in a separate bit of paper and not on your licence'?

Simply by reading your own quotation from LASORS (and for the sake of argument, assuming both LASORS and your quotation to be an accurate reflection of the ANO) :cool:

You want an IMC Rating - you need a CAA-issued licence

Please read the bit you quoted, specifically the first paragraph and note how that differs from the first sentence in the second paragraph.

Alternatively, you know the number. Call and (if you manage to get through) ask.