can you run a diesel car on JET A1

[eugegall]

im not going to do it. for starters my car runs on unleaded!

But is the above possile?

[airborne_artist]

Only if you don't mind HMRC confiscating the car, crushing it, and taking you to court for the back duty plus a £5000 fine....

[Lasiorhinus]

Yes, you can, but long term use will cause damage to your engine.

JET-A1 is lacking a lot of the lubricating properties diesel has, and over time, this results in increased wear.

Running half-and-half is fine, and emptying your fuel drains into the car's tank instead of onto the asphalt will cause no problems (as long as its CLEAN fuel from the drain. Don't do it when the drain reveals water and gunk).

I know of people who put some two-stroke oil in the tank with the JET-A1 - though I dont recall the appropriate ratio.

[helimutt]

yes you can but it doesn't have the same lubricants as diesel. You could use say half and half to give you a slightly better degree of protection, and don't do it on a regular basis. A diesel will run on virtually any oil, even chip pan oil, if strained/filtered correctly. Only problem is, the car fuel pump seals etc will wear quicker when using non specific products.

aa is correct tho, it's a bit naughty, but the chances of you being caught using half/half are slim.

Easier to see it being run on red diesel. The exhaust gas comes out red.:rolleyes:

[spekesoftly]

Not recommended in very cold temperatures, could cause loss of power! ....... :uhoh:

[BEagle]

We used to use waste AVTUR and a lubricant to power the glider winch at RAF Wattisham....

It's a grey area, I understand, concerning use of fuel which would otherwise be disposed of in a road going vehicle. Certainly you would be 'done' by The Revenue if they caught you using fresh Jet A-1 - but if it was 'waste fuel', I don't know.

Definitely not worth the risk of falling foul of HMRC though!

[Dan Winterland]

We used waste OM15 hydraullic oil as the lubricant at the Marham gliding club at a very precise ratio of about a bucketful per 600 gallon tank refuel. I used to maintain the 4 winches and 5 tractors and we had no injector pump wear problems.

However, these were early diesel engines (the tractors were 1950s little grey 'Fergies'). The older more rugged agricultural engines will run on about anything combustible. I don't know how the modern direct rail injection systems will cope.


As for the taxing, waste fuel will land you in trouble as it's not DERV (Deisel Engine Road Vehicle) fuel. But if you tell HMRC and send them a cheque for the duty for the fuel you put in, they are OK about it. But then the cost advantage is lost.

[onetrack]

Older diesels will run on anything that ignites under the heat of compression .. and survive admirably .. however, newer diesels are pretty finicky on fuel parameters.
The old diesels started out at 1500psi injection pressures in the 1930's and gradually went up from there. By the 1970's, injection pressures were running up to 5,000-6000psi. With the current crop of common rail diesels, injection pressures can run at 30,000psi.
Very high pressures means the fuel has to be within a narrow range of parameters set for the fuel, or the injection pump will suffer damage.

In addition, the new electronic diesels have piezo injectors that pulse the injection numerous times during the injection process to smooth out diesel knock. These electronic systems often have sensors measuring fuel viscosity, and any variation from the fuel parameters set by the engineers means the ECU won't fire the injectors. Also, these new diesels require ultra low sulphur fuel. High sulphur fuel can damage sensitive pollution control devices.

Despite the fact that diesel and JetA1 are basically kerosine-type fuels .. diesel is a differently-refined fuel to JetA1, and each has to meet specific API measurements. Each has additives to meet specific parameters such as lubricity, operating temperature ranges, flash point, pour point, cetane rating, corrosion resistance, etc etc ..

The other factor is the style of injection pump. Many older diesels have inline injection pumps, that are far better at coping with fuel that doesn't meet specific diesel parameters, as compared to rotary injection pumps. Rotary pumps are essentially cheap and nasty, and suffer higher wear rates than inline pumps.

Bottom line is .. JetA1 is a kerosine type fuel .. and you can run diesels on any kerosine-type fuel .. but it's better to add some oil to the fuel to improve lubricity. Injection pumps have very fine tolerances and components under extreme pressure, and need to have fuel with a degree of lubricity to ensure damage doesn't occur to them.

Older diesels (prior to 1980's) will run admirably on JetA1 with a small amount of engine oil added for lubricity .. modern electronic diesels are likely to suffer damage within a short time .. and maybe even refuse to run, if the computer reads the fuel as not meeting its preset parameters.

[airborne_artist]

Mix it with waste vegetable oil, and run it in an old IDI diesel that has a Bosch injector pump - the Citroen/PSA XUD turbo is a good example. Lucas pumps don't like anything but pure Derv.

[Rocket2]

Agree with Dan & Beagle - we ran the "Wild" winches & tractors at Cranwell GC on a 50:1 mix of waste Avtur & OM-15 although cold starting was a bit of a b@&$er as I recall - one morning having stuffed a burning rag in the intake & failed to get a start, another lad ran over with a can of Easystart which he liberally sprayed into the intake - sadly the rag hadn't stopped burning - my how we laughed after we had discharged an extinguisher over him - he was unhurt but it took a few weeks to regrow his eyebrows!:ugh:

[Blink182]

Beagle wrote......We used to use waste AVTUR and a lubricant to power the glider winch at RAF Wattisham....

It's a grey area, I understand, concerning use of fuel which would otherwise be disposed of in a road going vehicle. Certainly you would be 'done' by The Revenue if they caught you using fresh Jet A-1 - but if it was 'waste fuel', I don't know.

Definitely not worth the risk of falling foul of HMRC though!The waste fuel is supposed to be marked with a dye in accordance with HMRC regulations as it is collected in waste tanks /bowsers before disposal by recoginised operatives.
Quantities can be quite significant.......any fuel tank entry in large aircraft involves defuelling to minimum levels and then dribble draining the remainder......quite a few hundred litres in the case of something like a 747 for instance.

[jonkil]

Mate got nicked by HM C&I for running car(s) on the red stuff.:ouch:
He got nailed for a £1000 fine. :=
I said it was a stiff fine.:hmm:
He maintained it was the cheapest 20 years of motoring he ever had :}

[BackPacker]

You might want to check out Top Gear Series 10 episode 9, where the TG team ran a BMW 330 on biodiesel during the Britcar 24 hours at Silverstone. The biodiesel they produced themselves from crop planted in the previous series.

I imagine you'd hit the same sort of problems if you run your car on Jet-A. Plus HMRC of course.

There's loads of websites on running your car on biodiesel, including specifics on what needs to be replaced/upgraded on each car type to be able to run rape seed oil and whatever.

Main issues, as others have said, is lubrication (pumps, injectors) and degradation of seals.

[effortless]

As far as I know the only fuel that it is actualy illegal to use is that which is marked as such - red diesel. All others you can use as long as you pay duty as you would using bio-diesel. I understand that this may be possible post hoc. Probably got the wrong end of the stick but hey ho.

[tekcom]

It's not so much the Fuel Duty, but also the VAT as well.
HMRC like to double tax things !

You can use vegetable oil in the car legally as the VAT has already been levied on it.

Adam.

[flybydayuk]

During a period of AIDS (aeroplane induced divorce syndrome), :mad: was extremely broke and needed to fuel a Mazda 626 which was designed to run on regular unleaded mogas. :mad: had (legal!) access to plentiful supplies of 100LL and 28 second kero central heating fuel.

Mixed at roughly 25/75% the Mazda continued well beyond 200,000 miles purring happily, smoking a bit and smelling like 747 at idle. Only when the rectification of a steering fault was deemed uneconomic did the car meet the crusher. I think the cental heating fuel was priced at around 12p per litre then so it made economic sense.

Natrurally, I would note condone such an exercise and any similarity between :mad: and me is purely coincidental.

Old Derv burners would run on almost anything but I suspect modern engines are less tolerant.

[JW411]

I ran all the diesel engines on my gliding club for years on scrap AVTUR with absolutely no problem. I consulted a chap who was a research chemist with ESSO and he advised adding 0.5% by volume of any old oil just to make sure the injector pumps were lubricated properly.

We used to use scrap sump oil that came from oil changes in the MT section.

[ShyTorque]

One nice safe way to dispose of waste Jet A-1 is into a central heating oil tank. I know one RAF Warrant Officer in RAF Germany who got court martialled in the early 1980s for heating his house on it. It was rather blatant to use his driver to deliver the fuel (drumstock) to the house in an olive drab Landrover; not surprisingly someone shopped him.

[DBisDogOne]

In theory at least, it isn't illegal as the duty has been paid - unlike red diesel where duty is virtually nil. I ran an old XR2i on half and half waste Avgas/unleaded, it was fine for over 140K, (smelt nice too...) but I wouldn't want to argue my case in court, I reckon the powers that be would take a rather dim view despite the above. Rather than being a cheapskate (which I am and proud of it), I saw it as recycling as it was only going to be treated/dumped/whathaveyou anyway.

[mark sicknote]

Interesting link here from the Top Gear crew.

Could become a profitable business collecting used oil from restaurants if you can keep the tax man at bay.

YouTube - Top Gear: Vegetable Oil for Diesel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOFbsaNeZps)

Best,

Sicknote:ok:

[S-Works]

I know quite a few people wo do this, mostly broke First Officers who need to get to work.

There places on the internet that you can buy kits that filter and process the waste food oil into bio diesel in your garage. The older less fussy diesels will run directly on vegatable oil mixed with a little diesel. The smell is atrocious!

[airborne_artist]

This thread is now way off-topic, but indirect injection diesels such as the Peugeot XUD will run on neat veg oil, either fresh or waste (filtered). The Bosch injection pump is vital, as the Lucas pump will break on cold oil.

[cjhants]

shy torque
i ran my oil central heating system for many years on waste A1. used to get three quarters of a tank of normal heating oil to provide pump lubrication, and then topped it up every week with a few 25L drums.

kept SWMBO happy!

[pmh1234]

How can the Thielert run on Jet-A1 if it is not lubricating. Isn't this more or less a normal car engine?

[BigEndBob]

Read here:

HM Revenue & Customs: Revenue & Customs Brief 11/08 (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief1108.htm)

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE_CL_000205

Might be of interest.

The US/UK military now have diesel motorbikes that run off jet fuel, as apparently in the US the motorbike was the only vehicle requiring petrol.

Believe in Iraq the US have had some problems using jet fuel in their tanks (the ones with jet engines), as the fuel pumps have been failing.

[ShyTorque]

Some diesel injection pumps don't rely on the lubricity of the fuel itself to lubricate them. ;)

[spernkey]

The Thielert engine has a fuel pump which has a special coating on its internals to help offset the lack of lube in the Jet A1. Even then it has a limited life.

[airborne_artist]

lack of lube in the Jet A1

Low sulphur diesel also has low lubricity, but adding bio-diesel to 5% solves the problem.

[Mariner9]

Not entirely correct AA, not all FAME's (Fatty Acid Methyl Esthers) improve lubricity (though most do admittedly)

ULSD has a specified lubricity minima in any event. If the lubricity of the finished fuel blend is too low, lubricity improver is added.

[microlight AV8R]

When Mr Diesel invented his engine he fuelled it with peanut oil. at that time the mineral oil we now refine into what we call diesel fuel oil was not available. The refined mineral products became cheap and plentiful and peanut oil was no longer economic. Funny how things go full circle.

Bosch pumps are indeed the preferred option for those of us who run straight veg oil (SVO). Lucas CAV pumps don't like the veg oil as it's too thick. the answer is to heat the veg oil before it goes thru the injector pump, this changes the viscosity to a level akin to that of normal diesel.

Waste veg oil (WVO) simply needs to be filtered to make it useable in a diesel.

Many engines will run happily on straight veg oil without modification. I understand that 5% unleaded helps.

The more modern engines with all their fancy electronic sensors can be awkward if you try to burn SVO/WVO and common rail types (I'm told) are problematic.

You can use up to 2500 litres of veg oil per annum without having to pay duty. If you go over that figure, I understand you are liable for duty on the whole lot.

A little over a year ago you could run on veg oil bought from tesco and literally halve your fuel costs. Now the prices are much the same. If you can source WVO then you are quids in :ok: