X Oasis crew applying to AOA

[ACMS]

Seems the Oasis re-joiners want to join the AOA to?

A certain CN with the initails M.M. is on the list of applicants.

I say "NO WAY"

And I will be writing to the AOA objecting to this individual joining.

[AnAmusedReader]

I've known MM for years, going back to when he was with CX and have no problem with him joining again.

[ACMS]

WHAT? you must be kidding?

If I need to spell out what the Oasis crew have done to "help" our COS and the upgrades of my fellow Pilot's then you are DUMB.

Or just another selfish Pilot looking out for #1

And yes I too flew with MM a number of years ago, back THEN he was a man of principles and morals looking out for his fellow Pilot's especially the junior ones, I'm not too sure now.

[Captain Dart]

Sooo..., ACMS, what scale did you accept when you joined Cathay Pacific?

[777300ER]

ACMS,

I totally understand your point, but don't you think the more people that join the AOA, the better? You will be hard pressed to find any pilot that isn't looking out for #1 first. The sooner we all stand together, the sooner we'll achieve something. Regardless of our individual missteps.

[ACMS]

Well I give up.

We all deserve what they do to us.:D

sad sad world.

[ACMS]

I joined on the B scale WITH THE BLESSING OF THE AOA.

A Scalers didn't object to the introduction of the B scale and THAT'S A FACT.

Since then, the B SCALERS have voted against accepting conditions LESS than B Scale. DEFO in Aust for one.

I can sleep straight in my bed KNOWING that although I might have failed at least I TRIED, which is more the majority of any A scalers can say.

So yes, there is a difference.

It's not me doing the companies dirty work.

It's the WHOLE Pilot group LETTING it happen in the first place.

Guys/Girls doing their own deals without the blessing of the membership DEGRADE/UNDERMINE our whole bargaining position and ultimately SCREW EVERYONE.

[mephisto88]

Most of us pilots employed on the common jet salary pre 93,
couldn't imagine that other aircrew wishing to join cx could
even contemplate joining so on the ludicrous low terms being
offered, those terms now known as B, or for the (relatively)
lucky first few, B+.

Had the B scalers not accepted those terms, then it is unlikely
there would have been a B scale, or C scale, or F scale or O
scale, and the list goes on.

However, this subject has generally been done to death in forums
past, and is normally justified by the B scalers saying, "well if I
hadn't joined, someone else would have". Cant be proven either
way, but unlikely to have succeeded if no one joined. History
generally shows that when a company wants something and only
offers X, but gets no takers, then if they still really want something,
and at the time, they still NEEDED pilots, then they offer X plus
some more. Pilots like numbers, so it should have been: X+more=A.
Problem solved, ............until people accepted X.:ugh:

So for individuals to blame A scalers for the B scale salary THEY chose to accept, is a bit rich.

Back on subject, whilst I dont agree with the companies blatent hiring
of DEC's, however it's disguised, I believe the more people in the union,
the better its representation and consequent bargaining power. So if
the spineless quitters who didn't want to pay the 5% to their fallen
colleagues can be welcomed back with open arms, why not the ex
Oasis guys?

Brgds to all.

[ACMS]

Which came first the Chicken or the Egg.

Point is that the members of the AOA at that time didn't lift a finger to stop the degradation of their junior Pilot's Terms and Conditions.

Most if not all current members think differently.

And it's a funny coincidence that those accepting the degradation today were those that didn't object yesterday.

mmmmmmmm

[ACMS]

As a matter of fact a vote was held by the AOA on the acceptance of the new pay scales for DEFO's in OZ, this occured about 2 years ago. NC where are you?

At that time the overwhelming majority voted to reject the change in our COS for new joiners.


Now read that last sentance again, slowly for those of advancing years.


Unfortunatly the company chose to impose new coditions on new joiners, tut tut. But at least we tried

Now maybe the company might have acted a bit differently if we had more members at that time.

Food for thought hey.

[Traffic]

Jizz

Your conclusions seen counter-intuitive to me.

Why would MM and GO and all the Oasis hires not want to improve COS?

The fact the company re-employed them may be a bone of contention but the fact of the matter is they are back.

Some of you guys really don't get it...if you want the AOA to continue to be an insignificant sideline... then apartheid is the way to go.

Anyone who wants to join should be encouraged.

[ACMS]

Ok then............pros and cons for the Oasis members?

What are they?
Pro: the only one I can see is a bigger number of Pilot's, I don't really think 30 is going to help our cause that much though.

Con:1/ they don't need the job for money
2/ don't need the job for very long
3/ have a lot of experience to GET A GOOD JOB ELSEWHERE IF THEY COULD BE BOTHERED
4/ Have shown they are prepared to act for themselves without the blessing of the members of our association
5/ Have nothing to lose by voting for age 65 retirement
6/ have nothing to lose by accepting lower pay as they already have a sizeable PF
7/ don't need much housing allowance as most of them already OWN an Apt in Hkg.

need I go on?

At the end of the day they have done absolutely ZERO to help those junior Pilot's in Cathay Pacific Airways and if you can't see that then get a pair of glasses and stop smoking that funny weed.

[2 cents]

You should have seen the collective rolling of eyes as a certain 60+ yr old was wandering around in dispatch the other day.

Why anyone would want to launch off on 12 day, back of the clock, 2 and 3 crew freighter patterns at the age of 63 is beyond me. I just don't get it.

[cpdude]

It is so easy for CX to catch fish!

It's NOT the ex Oasis or any other group the source of your problems but CX management themselves. When will you guys figure this out?:ugh:

[ACMS]

Yes I know but the fact that these guys accept crap DOES NOT HELP YOU A ME 1 LITTLE BIT.

If it was all done THROUGH OUR Union and was 100% legit then NONE OF US WOULD HAVE A BEEF AT ALL.

But it wasn't.

[BlunderBus]

You seem to think you know an awful lot about something that happened long before you even turned up!
Incidentally 49 guys got fired as a result of your typical ' a scale pilots not doing anything thinking'
you know f**k all about what happened here in the 80's and early nineties and what happened when we took on DT.
We didn't want freighter crews or B scales and the response in all events was total intimidation and indiscriminate sackings..along with a 25% pay cut.
I wonder if you received a letter in your crew mail from the CEO saying 'sign here or be fired in 10 days' what path you would choose??
Yeah i know..all BS and bravado but I bet a pound to a pinch you'd cue up to keep your job.
Incidentally as you feel so strongly about looking after your fellow crew and taking on the company there is a CPU doing just that so why don't you write them a cheque and put your money where your(rather large)mouth is.
It's plain for all to see that you blame the world's problems on A-scale crew...well if you find it all that intolerable why the hell did you take the job in the first place?
Finally what did YOU do to prevent the introduction of 'C' scales and freighter payscales?

[Apple Tree Yard]

..another thing ACMS: you state that the A scalers didn't do anything to stop B scales...blah, blah, blah. You seem to miss the obvious: the only thing done was you and your colleagues chose to accept B scales. In other words, you made and implemented the only decision necessary for the company to undermine and subvert our profession. I know, it hurts to realise this doesn't it? The A scalers made it clear to the company that they did not accept the B scale decision, or the subsequent ASL decision. Unfortunately, we work for a company that imposes its will. If other pilots were willing to work for worse pay and conditions (like yourself...), then guess what?, B scale and ASL are established. Look at yourself in the mirror. Most of us know what we are/were worth. We joined when the job was worth it.

[ACMS]

twist twist twist

make all the bs excuses you want.


B scale voted against ASL as well, not just the A scale. And we too lost out on many promotions over that debacle.

You and your ilk are amazing in your ability to twist the truth.
Pity you didn't put that talent to work early 93.
However that's history........................We have a problem TODAY, CX are employing DEFO and promoting them to Capt by seriously abusing the system. And these guys accept it WITHOUT even trying to get OUR union to assist.

I don't care how you spin it, they undermine those of us that need a good stable rewarding career here at CX. Those 60 y.o. have alreadty had a long rewarding career and now they totally screw ours. AGAIN.

[ACMS]

The A scalers made it clear to the company that they did not accept the B scale decision

so how did you do that? You certainly didn't vote on it. You know full well that A scalers were told they wouldn't be effected and as such DID NOTHING to prevent it.

[Apple Tree Yard]

..oh, I see....just consider that a PS shall we...? During negotiations with Clemmow (GMF at the time), the AOA said that it was categorically opposed to two different payscales. After a couple of weeks, Clemmow declared the 'negotiations' over, and then put new contracts in boxes. No vote, no say. As I mentioned earlier, the only people who made a conscious decision were those that accepted employment as B scale/ASL. Why don't you go away and find a better method of explaining your BS decision...ok?

[Numero Crunchero]

Hey mate,
yes we voted against the new DEFO scales two years ago. Then in its usual fashion CX imposed them anyway - just like 1994, 1999 and 2001.

I am not going to get involved with the whole 'shouldn't have accepted B, ASL, F, DEFO scales' argument. I know that everyone has a choice - the choice or not to join given the prevailing conditions. I do not believe those that joined on B scales, ASL, DEFO or Oasis did so to undermine the incumbent employees. I think they joined as the conditions were better than their alternatives. So whilst I am personally unhappy with CX offering defacto DEC positions, I do not take issue with those that have accepted them. The bad guy is CX, not the new employees.

In December 1992, the HKAOA expressed their opposal to the introduction of B scales. In the same vein it understood it was the company's right to introduce new T+C's for new employees and that the AOA could not legally defend an employee who did not yet exist (B scales started 1/4/93). As a result of this and other prevailing issues, the AOA asked that no G days be worked in Jan 93!

From being there I can tell you the general belief was that people wouldn't join and if they did the salaries would converge within 3-5 years as they had in the US and European carriers that introduced B scales.

It seems that everytime a new issue raises its ugly head, old prejudices raise theirs too!

[leftof]

ACMS you appear to have a real chip on your shoulder between A and B scale. Knowing that you would be earning less pay why did you join??? What have you personally done since you joined to try and get an increase in your pay. Do you have a beef with the B+ guys or are you one of them? Oh yes and what about the C guys I presume you have been lobbying in all the right places to get that changed...yes we all want to go back to the good old days but life is not like that. Grow Up...and no I am not an A scaler ..below you infact I would think.

[junior_man]

Seems the best thing to do then is to welcome the O8 pilots into the AOA and work to negotiate away the pat scales we do not like.
More members=stronger organization

[badairsucker]

ACMS,

Watching from the sidelines regarding most of your posts, you bark on about wanting more people to join the AOA, now you don't want the O8 guys to join.


Dude, you can't have your cake and eat it.:O

[Apple Tree Yard]

ACMS....has a chip on both shoulders....:ok:

[treboryelk]

any other groups you want to exclude....ex ASL? ex Freighter? ex-members who may left due to increased subs? ex-members who left for other reasons?

at least if you define the eligibility list, will save a lot of people wasting there time filling in an application form.

take the ex-oasis issue to the company, not to them. you would take a job offered to you if your airline went bust....oh, no, i forgot.......we all fall on our swords dont we, lose our livelihood, possibly our families and homes....in the interests of our fellow pilots who would do just the same for us!

[ACMS]

any other groups you want to exclude....ex ASL? ex Freighter? ex-members who may left due to increased subs? ex-members who left for other reasons?
All cases should be assessed on thir merits. Those that worked "AGAINST" the good of all members should not be allowed to join/re-join.

And No, I don't begrudge A scale, quite the opposite. IF we had a good membership we might have a shot at decent conditions for ALL.

I have no objection to MM IG RM GO MD etc etc coming back but for gods sake do it through the AOA, respecting ALL our contracts.

So you're telling me that these x Oasis Captains coming back DON'T harm our cause?? It most certainly does, in many ways.

Did any of these blokes bother to ask OUR union's opinion or help before applying?

NO of course not, they don't care about the rest of us.

take the ex-oasis issue to the company, not to them. you would take a job offered to you if your airline went bust....oh, no, i forgot.......we all fall on our swords dont we, lose our livelihood, possibly our families and homes....in the interests of our fellow pilots who would do just the same for us!
as a matter of fact I did just that back in 1989. YOU?

[Humber10]

"Most of us know what we are/were worth. We joined when the job was worth it. "

Sure everyone wants the most they can make out of anything. I'm sure we all value ourselves as highly as yourself, so show us where the jobs are now that are worth it and the rest will follow.....

When I joined Cx, B scale had been the norm for quite some time, so how am I to blame for B scale introduction??

Well I guess all of us could be blamed for allowing C scale. The thing we all need to do now is prevent further errosion of our conditions..... If people put half the effort they use on these posts and directed it towards contributing to protecting our conditions, we would all be alot better off....

[ACMS]

I venture to suggest that these blokes will all have left inside 2 years, they'll have had their unexpected fling in the left seat of a CX Jet, screwed us and left with more pocket money to spend.

THANKS from me for helping my Union negotiate improved T and C's

And thanks from the F/O's and S/O's that have had their upgrades delayed.

:D

Spin it all you want..................That is a FACT

[treboryelk]

ACMS...they do indeed hurt our cause.....nothing like seeing command slide further away......but i take a different take on it.....i blame the company for aloowing it to happen rather than the individuals for taking the jobs.

and as for asking the AOA permission to join cathay....you gotta be taking the piss!

[ACMS]

I didn't say "ask permission"

I said Did any of these blokes bother to ask OUR union's opinion or help before applying?


See I do blame these blokes, the companies position is clear, profit and bottom line are what drives them and only thing that stops them paying us even less is a UNITED US. These X Oasis guys are not united one little bit.

They pander to the company and assist them in their devisive ways.

We are being screwed gentlemen and these X Oasis guys are providing the KY

[BusyB]

ACMS,

We helped at least one of these Oasis guys to be a 49'er and you begrudge him joining:ugh:

[AnAmusedReader]

ACMS, so you're bitter still after 1989? Can understand that. What I don't understand is that you had no choice as you had lost your job, so you join CX on the B scale? Yet you deny MM, who also lost his job, the chance to join CX.

You accuse him of damaging everyone else when you did the same. In fact was it not the B scalers who were the first to demonstarte to CX that they could succeed in running down contracts?

Nearly every post you have made in this thread contradicts a previous one. It seems that bitterness breeds confusion.

You just don't get it do you?http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif

[western bronco]

ACMS,

Wow, you really do have a bit of an axe to grind eh? I am an ex Oasis pilot who did'nt choose Cathay and went elsewhere. Just to put you straight I know that at least 10 out of the 30 odd guys who came across are under 40 and see Cathay as 20 yr+ career, not just a few years to boost the pocket money. The others are predominantly ex and very experienced Cathay pilots, a proven product, and therefore at a point where your company is shot of flight deck perhaps a good investment for the short term considering training costs.

I can imagine that these guys want nothing more than to intergrate in to the company now and be seen as Cathay pilots rather than ex Oasis pilots. I genuinely now feel sorry for them if they have to sit on a flightdeck with the likes of you having to listen to you drone on about absolute crap.:ugh:

Thankfully looking at this thread the majority realize that we all need a job to pay the bills and that if Cathay's financial politics are at fault the finger should be pointed at the politicians rather than the pilots!

[ACMS]

yeah lets bend over so the Oasis guys can pay their bills.

NEWSFLASH:... you joined a fly by night operation, what did you expect?

Well I can tell you that all of the guys I know in CX agree with me 100%.

All of them will not speak to the Oasis guys on an overnight at the bar.

They are held in the contempt they deeserve.

[western bronco]

"Well I can tell you that all of the guys I know in CX agree with me 100%."

Enough said, thanks for justifying my decision to go elsewhere, no wonder Cathays rep within the industry is spiraling downhill.....shame.

[leftof]

ACMS you can't know many guys then

[fire wall]

Western Bronco, this guy does not speak for anyone but himself. Further he is in no way representative. Don't sweat the small stuff ---- and this mentality is just that. ACMS you are an embarrassment.

[western bronco]

Firewall,

No fear, have many good mates in Cathay. It is a shame though that a few are really screwing it up!

[badairsucker]

Hell, I'll drink and chat to anyone down route.:ok:

[ACMS]

you are a sad bunch of LIMP dicks


So go ahead, let CX in conjuntion with these guys screw your career and continue to interpret your COS in their own way.


As I'm already a Captain It doesn't really effect me anyway, I try to think of others.

I think you A scalers would be surprised at the level of feeling amoungst the 777 F/O's and S/O's I fly with. It exists and no amount of rubbishing me changes that.


Doesn't matter, only a small % of CX Crew bother to read this site anyway.

[trevfly]

ACMS, after the Oasis guys, its the 80 or so KA DEFO (40 on automatic upgrade to LHS 747-400) you will have to deal with. Only 11 of them ever showed any interest in joining the DPA. Of course they all bleated about how useless the DPA was and refused to join.

Why not ask them when they come across (sorry thats now they are across), will you be joining the AOA, if its as equally inept as the DPA.

Ex Oasis, Ex Ka, they will all weaken your negotiating position with their readiness to skip seniority, and the 100s of CX guys ahead of them.

And exactly what is their vast experience consisting of which grants them the right for automatic upgrade ? Global freighter operations, ha ha thats a joke, none of these guys has ever flown to more than 3 destinations!

I am off topic, but hey its still relevant.

[Apple Tree Yard]

ACMS, I just got back from the Wanch....spending my A scale bucks. Your latest post is just about the most hilarious, juvenile, embarrassing missive I have ever read. Very eloquent intro..... Please, keep writing, you don't realise how much enjoyment and reading pleasure you provide. :ok:

[The Messiah]

ACMS you appear to be playing the man and not the ball.

[ACMS]

yes I agree. KA freighter guys, DEFO's, X Oasis Pilot's etc etc

All a big problem, especially when guys like these don't care.


All i know is that everytime I go to the bar, go to dispatch or go to Starbucks the topic of conversation invariably leads to these guys/girls aiding and abetting the company. The young guys are pissed off and quite righly so.
It's not simply a question of blaming the company. These guys knew what they were doing, pure and simple.
The fact that they are retired A scale doesn't really matter, we would think the same if they were retired B or C scale guys.

It just makes it worse to see those guys that did very well in CX over a 20+ year career with very nice PF's coming back as basically DEC on a **** payscale.

What exactly are they on? Well I'm reliably told they've accepted a poultry $87,000 HKD month with no housing allowance. They CAN accept this low pay because they don't need the money.

Apple Tree Yard and his ilk don't object because they too want to do the same thing in a few years time, DON'T YOU MATE.

Don't bother denying it, over 90% of guys approaching 55 said "no way, I'm not going into training" then guess what, 5 months before retirement they "see the company light" tossers


So you can blame the company all you want, but we do know where they stand don't we.
=they will bend the FTL's where required
=not pay bypass pay to F/O's until assessed which is against their contracts
=upgrade out of seniority
=pay a little as they CAN GET AWAY WITH

How can they do this? Because we have a bunch of selfish twits only thinking of themselves instead of a unified cohesive UNITED work force.


yeah.............

[mephisto88]

Mate, if you are married, its a fair bet your wife will be on Valium or some other happy pill - if so, you should take a couple and try and calm down a little.
Other than that, not that I'd wish it on anyone, but a life changing experience can put a whole new perspective of how trivial these little things can be, concerned with the larger picture.
Try and settle down a little before you bring one on yourself. A lot of your post on other topics posts are pretty much on the nail, but I think you have lost it a little with this one.

[ACMS]

I'm fine thanks mate.

I love my job and always look forward to going to work.

Doesn't mean I will give up wanting WHAT's RIGHT.

So let me see. In a while CX will say that the new payscale for HKG PAX Captains is say 90,000 month. Then most of our guys wont take it. Then they will say "look, no one wants the positions, so we will employ DEC's"

That's what they DID already with these HK freighter positions.

[leftof]

I wonder how close to 55 you are ACMS and do you have young children or were you fortunate to have children when you were young. This increasing the age limit has been around for a very long time this is not so new and some people joined thinking that it would mean they would have a longer career than they would have otherwise and therefore give them more time to make up the money they missed out on by not being A scalers I wonder what your decision will be as you approach age 55. You have no idea what personal reasons have been involved with the decision for some of these guys to choose to continue flying and maybe they just don't want to give up as they still enjoy their job.

[ACMS]

yes extended retirement age NEGOTIATED by a strong UNION.

Not by individuals with personal agendas.

I too am in favour of extending the RA. I never said I wasn't.

BUT, I don't favour it at the expense of my junior colleagues.

A BIG DIFFERENCE.

[cpdude]

Well I can tell you that all of the guys I know in CX agree with me 100%.

All of them will not speak to the Oasis guys on an overnight at the bar.

They are held in the contempt they deeserve.

Do you guys meet late at night in a dark place? Secret handshake maybe?:}

or

Does obsessive-compulsive disorder mean anything to you?

[discoveryman]

ACMS,

From reading your posts it appears to me that you are a little stressed out, maybe working for Cathay does this to some people.

I would therefore like to recommend the following:

1. Pour yourself a large scotch, preferable a 15 year old single Malt.
2. Find a nice quiet room and turn the lights down low.
3. Turn the volume up on the computer and view this short video.
YouTube - Boeing 747 - RIAT 2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta-i0GgIMyM)

Best Wishes for your speedy recovery.

[ACMS]

No I have PRINCIPLES and I see that a lot of you mob in here DON'T.

[AnAmusedReader]

And we can all help ACMS in his recovery by no longer contributing to this debate.

Apart from this last comment on it from me.

The person ACMS first attacked in starting this thread spent time on the AOA GC a few years back. ACMS's contribution to help his fellow pilots has been confined to his contributions in pprune.

[ACMS]

oh so I didn't support the 49ers through extra contributions? must have dreamt that one

So I don't pay subs now and VOTE when required.!!! oh

So I didn't stay the course side by side with my colleagues through one of the worst Aviation industrial disputes the world has seen? ( Oz 89 )

So I didn't stay the course through the 2000 sign or be fired debacle in CX.

I've been in the AOA for 15 years and never missed a Vote or paying my subs.

What have you done?

[AnQrKa]

ACMS,

"If I need to spell out what the Oasis crew have done to "help" our COS and the upgrades of my fellow Pilot's then you are DUMB."

Followed by

"Or just another selfish Pilot looking out for #1"

Priceless.

So you are demanding other pilots act in order to assist your own selfishness.

[ACMS]

Oh god you guys do make me laugh.

NO IDIOT, I'm trying to get a UNITED Pilot group a bit like the one you have in KA. A UNITED Pilot group that can have a little power to NEGOTIATE contracts with the company.

I am against guys "Doing their own thing" with the company. As most adults are smarter than a 5th grader I'd expect this "concept" would be easily understood by you..

THEY ARE THE SELFISH ONES


If the membership decide to accept these guys and move on then the AOA is a democracy and I'd happily accept the decision of the members.

BUT.........that has not happened yet.

[Apple Tree Yard]

...ACMS, the problem is your incessant rantings against the A scale, who's only 'crime' was having joined the company before you. Why don't you be a good little boy, go and have a reveiw of your last couple of years worth of posts and come back when you can behave without coming across as a spoiled child. Not quite sure how you propose 'unity' when most of your posts are abusive of the one group who joined the company with a fair and unequivocal view of their worth. Have a think about it....

[ACMS]

Grow up Apple seed.

Explain in plain English for us all to see HOW these guys joining doesn't do damage to our negotiating position.?
Explain to our junior colleages WHY their employment WAS NECESSARY in the first place?

Then explain to me WHY they accept ONLY $87,000 month with no housing allowance?

Explain how or why they are in a position to accept that?

Explain why they can't go to Korean Air, where the pay is better?

As a group only 1 ( that know of ) out of 30 wants to join the AOA,
so I will explain to you that that fact speaks volumes about their intentions toward their junior colleagues.

[ACMS]

see we are going round in circles here.

I don't hate the A scalers, quite the opposite actually. We should ALL be on the A scale. But how is it that guys who have said they are worth being paid A scale for the last 20 years suddenly say "hey, I'm not worth A scale anymore, so pay me less than C scale, I DON'T CARE I'll do anything just to fly your Cathay Jet one more time...........yeah baby"

Do they have any pride? Any life at all?

I admire their desire to keep flying ( or keep away from the wife ) but hey...........don't RUIN our chance at the golden ring.

Take your considerable talents to another Airline, who knows you may teach them something.:D


Oh and did you know that all the over 55 extendees ( not the Oasis Pilot's )get to keep their original DOJ for staff travel purposes? TRUE, so next time you can't get a seat in the cabin or a crew seat then think about why this happens.

[BusyB]

"As a group only 1 ( that know of ) out of 30 wants to join the AOA,
so I will explain to you that that fact speaks volumes about their intentions toward their junior colleagues."

I suspect this is because you're not speaking to them.

I know many more than 1 intend to join:}

[Arfur Dent]

ACMS Look back at your rantings and ask yourself if you're really intending to unite anyone. You're letting your jealousy of the 'A' scale group cloud your judgement. Get over it and let someone else talk - you've made your point - over and over again.
If someone is extended in this Company to stop us having to wet lease aircraft or even ground them, then too damned right he keeps his DOJ for Staff travel.
Bit of advice - never miss an opportunity to shut up.:ok:

[Apple Tree Yard]

Uh...Jagman...unfortunately he ALWAYS misses that opportunity...! :ok:

[ACMS]

If someone is extended in this Company to stop us having to wet lease aircraft or even ground them, then too damned right he keeps his DOJ for Staff travel.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

That must be a windup

You guys must be management? How could you say that???????????

Incredible you could think that way.

IT'S JUST ANOTHER WAY TO SCREW THE JUNIOR GUYS>

AND MORE IMPORTANTLY it shows how quite a few of the senior Pilot's think.:= :mad:

[ACMS]

BusyB: so what's DELAYING their application then? are they waiting to see if they can claim their subs on their Tax!!!

Bring it on..............they can APPLY but we will object.

I hope they know that.

[Arfur Dent]

ACMS - Yes I'm quite serious. What we should all do is to just leave you to conduct this thread all on your own. You know, answer your own replies and accuse yourself of going around in circles. Oh wait!
You're already doing that!!??:ok:

[AnAmusedReader]

:*they can APPLY but we will object.


Reading this thread it appears that YOU will object not "we", certainly not me.

And this next sentence of your proves you really don't get it:


Explain in plain English for us all to see HOW these guys joining doesn't do damage to our negotiating position.?



Because the damage was done when you (and the others) joined as B scalers. That was when the rot started and, I admit, continues today. But don't criticise others for what you did yourself. You need to forget the past, recognise the present and work for the future. In another thread you seem to realise that when you say we must UNITE going forward. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

So stop this ranting and start working for the future.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[ACMS]

Oh god here we go again.....................


Listen very carefully I am only going to say this once:-

you retirees and Oasis guys CAN come back and fly as long as:

1/ you accept the SAME pay and conditions as B scale
2/ you join at the BOTTOM of the Seniority list and ONLY accept legitimate promotions if we can't/wont accept them
3/ Bypass pay is then actually PAID correctly to ALL effected officers as per our COS.
4/ YOU DO IT THROUGH THE HKAOA

Simple really..........then you'd all be WELCOME back and we could all be ONE HAPPY FAMILY MOVING FORWARD.

Can't you see that you are being used by the Company to further their agenda. Which is further erode the T & C's of all current Pilot's ( and all other staff as well )
You might think you are doing the company a favour by helping them out in a shortage but you're only SCREWING US and playing into their hands.

[Jack57]

Great

Let's allow these guys to come back, join the union and vote thru 65...

That will only screw FO's and SO's alike, not to mention what the direct entry FO's are doing. Ohhh and a basing - Forget it!!!!

And no....I have ZERO desire to work till 65. However with lost income from command regression - I may just have to.

It gets better and bet....

[iLuvPX]

Listen very carefully I am only going to say this once:-

If we could only be this lucky.

[Arfur Dent]

iLUV - I bet he sais it more than once!

ACMS - I agree that when you're 55 you should do all the things you suggest. After all, when you joined the retirement age was 55 and you wouldn't want to screw your younger colleagues now would you. Long way away? Time moves fast and 55 is the old 45 they tell me. Try to relax. Your points are well made (or certainly should be by now - just look back at the thread - it's unique in the history of the Prune IMHO!)

[ACMS]

Listen very carefully I'm only going to say this once:-



oops that's twice:ok:


MAYBE SOME NEED TO READ IT AGAIN?

[AsiaMiles]

Please, I do wish people would speak the truth.
The A Scale community offered not to accept any pay rises for a number of years if the Company did not introduce B Scale.