Aerial Work

[ASHBOW]

Help,

I need some clarification with regard to Aerial work. My situation is this:

I hold a JAA CPL/ Class one medical. My Employer has asked me to survey a pipeline. I intend to hire an aircraft from a local flying school (C172 C206) and fly the length of the pipeline with another employee recording the event by camera. We will both be paid by our company to do this.

Is this legal and classed as aerial work?
Must the aeroplane be maintained as a public transport aircraft?
Is this classed as a private flight?
Does the insurance company need to be notified and does this alter the prem by a lot?
Any other information i need to know?

I have asked the CAA who have refered me to the ANO which is a little confusing.

Regards

Phil

[Wireless]

I would think that as your company is paying you guys for this you are operating a commercial flight so where you hire the aircraft from would have to have the correct AoC along with Aerial work C of A for the aircraft.

[ASHBOW]

Hello,

I have spoken to the CAA today who have said that in there opinion it would be aeriel work but they will not put anything in writing, they say that it is for my company's lawer to understand the ANO and apply the rules as required..?

Ultimatley my company will hire in the service to avoid any possible prosecution which doesn't help my flying hrs/experience.

[CJ Driver]

Ashbow,

This seems fairly unambiguous, and you should be able to conduct the task as described.

You and the other person on board are both employees of the company who has commissioned the work, and are doing the task as part of your duties for that company. There is no third party customer or operator, thus it is a private flight. No AOC is required.

You are being paid by your employer to perform duties which include flying an aircraft. Thus, you are being paid to fly, and can only do that if you have a valid CPL; you imply that you have one, so you are fine on that front.

Your company is renting the aircraft from someone else. The company will presumably want to rely on the insurance policy of the Flying School. This is the only area where you need to be careful, and you will want to assure yourself that the mission is allowed by their insurance, and that renters, and their employees, are automatically considered as additional assureds under the policy. This is not always completely clear cut in the policy, so you would be wise to check before you launch.

[Expressflight]

If your company hire the aircraft and therefore supply it for you to fly, then I think you can undertake the work as CJ Driver suggests. What you probably cannot do is hire the aircraft yourself and then charge your company for carrying out the survey as that would then become Aerial Work.

The CAA GA division used to be more helpful in giving advice in such situations than now seems to be the case. Perhaps the fear of using against them any advice they may give, in the event of something going wrong, drives their present attitude.

[blue monday]

As long as your not flying for reward i thought it was ok, so instead of being gready and asking the company to pay you extra just give your time for free, maybe that will work and you still get to log some hours.

[Flintstone]

...just give your time for free...



Here we go. :*

[ASHBOW]

Hello,

Thanks for the advice, so if its not public transport then its a private flight doing Aerial work ? or does Aerial work need a public cat c of a aircraft , private not. How are the two linked.?

Confused

[Makaya]

Aerial work is by no means public transport.
But you need approved operation manual for that in my country (France).

If your company is doing powerline survey for itself, it is just private flying, even if you get paid as a pilot. (but your company has to provide the plane, not you).
If the company is performing this survey for a third party for money, than you are performing aerial work. And it requires an approved ops manual by the CAA, special insurrance....

[Wireless]

Mmm. I don't think the company can't just hire a flying school aircraft used for instruction and then actually pay you to carry out aerial work with it without coming under the auspices of being an Aircraft operator and needing an ops manual and all that malarky.

If you were paid by the flying school to carry out this aerial work at said company then you'd fall under their remit as an aircraft operator with their SOP's, insurance, ops manual etc but most flying schools aren't papered up for any other aerial work than instruction.

From working with a mixed aerial work outfit for the coastguard and then doing MOD public transport I can say in my experience it's down to legal pedantry but there you go.

If you were not paid to do it and it was a private flight rather than for "hire or reward" then that's a different business

[ChrisLKKB]

Have you tried approaching your local flying school or the company you intend to rent the aircraft from ? Chances are they've been approached to do ariel work in the past and may well know about these things. I would have thought you'd be ok as long as the aircraft has an AoC ticket but don't take my word for it. I believe schools conduct pleasure flights under the auspices of a trial lesson to avoid the need for an AoC.

As you will have a pax on board to take photographs, in my mind it is a public transport flight in the same way as the GFT was conducted as if it were a public transport flight (which is basically the same scenario). I believe the fact that your company will be paying for the cost of the aircraft classifies it as a commercial opperation.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Legal aspects aside, what is to be achieved by this survey? Is this for internal interest, archive, general placing of the pipeline in the surrounding countryside or more detailed records of the pipeline and the easement itself? Presumably it is not a legally required periodic safety inspection of a petrochemical pipe, is it?

Pipeline surveying is a pretty specialised business; you will achieve little in detail, I'd have thought, from 500', or do you plan to get an exemption? Are you really up to speed on 500'nav, following a feature that may or may not be well defined (older pipelines can be almost invisible), down amongst the fast pointy stuff...

Is the cameraman a Professional, or at least highly experienced? If not he will struggle to do anything useful out of a light aircraft, even if the door is removed which does not sound practical from the info given. Filming video or stills through a window, be it open or closed, is very difficult. I promise you hand held video from 500', even with a proper camera, will not tell you much except how pretty the countryside is, where the camera wobbles allow it to be seen at all. Stills photography form the air is a skill on its own, the light characteristics are not the same as on the ground.

Lots of other things to consider too, thermals, sunlight, contrast, haze, wind (the pipeline will be obscured by the aircraft at some drift angles)

It sounds to me like a job for a professional observer and/or a professional film outfit with a 'Blad and the correct lenses or a broadcast quality camera on a stabilised mount.

[PicMas]

yes, you can do it on a PPL as flying is incidental to employment with that company.

[ASHBOW]

The survey it self is an initial trial using a thermal imaging camera to detect water leaks by creating a leak in a field to see if the camera detects it from 1500ft ish. If this proves to be successfull then i have access to an aircraft which could be modified to suit. Seems straight forward until you look deeper into it.

Not sure where to go from here, it sound's like a job for someone who has the relevant certs but why should they get all the glory and the flying!

[sycamore]

If you do it,it may be prudent to file a Notam covering area,dates ,height,a/c colour etc,and find out about all local noise/horse/cat/hospitals/nuclear power stations/homes for the `befuddled`,etc.....

[ASHBOW]

There are two procedures you can follow:

CNAP. Low level Civil Aircraft Notification Procedures

PINS . Pipeline Inspection Notification System

All covered, its just the legal that gets in the way.

[Agaricus bisporus]

That gives us much more background.

Is this, then, just a single-point exercise where the "leak" is staged, or do you still need to fly and film the length of the pipe?

Movie or stills? Presumably movie, as that is what most TI systems are. All Police/public service airborne units use gyro-stabilised fixed units on (almost invariably) helicopters. They are very expensive, but they do this for a reason - it is the only way that works reliably.

You might prove the concept with a hand-held unit at a known and pre-planned position but I doubt that approach would work for a survey along the length of the pipeline.

The plan should work as long as the tempretaure of the leaking water is different from the surface of the land it wells up onto - others will explain the sensitivity of commercial TI systems but they are pretty cute these days. If you are from a utility or water company why not approach your local Police ASU for some guidance on what TI can do, or failing that get the manufacturer of the imaging kit to stage a demo for you. If their reps smell a sale they'll move mountains to help...

Hate to take the glory away, but this is even more specialised than it seemed at first, but if you play it correctly you just might get to set up a flying unit with the specialise kit and do it yourself, but I think it will be a major project.

CANP. PINS. Hmmm. bugger all use IMHO. You need to state exact position at exact time days in advance - how can you do that with operational and weather delays? Worry briefly, then forget about it if you ever start a permanent outfit.

Good luck!

[ASHBOW]

I have had a reply from the CAA lgal dept, they say that as i'm being paid by my company to take my work collegue flying to operate a survey camera then this is public transport and therefore i or/the operator needs an AOC even though we both work for the same company..?

I have to say the reply was in legal talk...

I prefer cj driver's response... Hey Ho

[blue monday]

the magic words IF YOU BEING PAID, so donate your time for free and as i originally said don't be greedy, at least you get some free flying.

[Flintstone]

the magic words IF YOU BEING PAID, so donate your time for free and as i originally said don't be greedy, at least you get some free flying.Yeah, what the hell. Why don't all those of us who slaved and paid our way to our ATPL/CPL stop being greedy and fly for no pay or let those who are unqualified do our jobs for us?



blue monday


Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Flight Ops Dept
Posts: 140

Figures :rolleyes:

[blue monday]

Originally Posted by blue monday
the magic words IF YOU BEING PAID, so donate your time for free and as i originally said don't be greedy, at least you get some free flying.
Yeah, what the hell. Why don't all those of us who slaved and paid our way to our ATPL/CPL stop being greedy and fly for no pay or let those who are unqualified do our jobs for us?



Quote:
blue monday


Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Flight Ops Dept
Posts: 140
Figures :rolleyes:

:ok: re Ops Figures :rolleyes: :)would it upset you more if the company owned/owns/has access to SEP/SEP's and for an ops bod with a PPL (or even an engineer) an occasional gift horse may present its self by way of allowing a competent PPL flyer to hone their skills on a nice VFR day by taking a company SEP for nowt, navigating their way to an airfield where it just so happens a package needs dropping off that was conveniently left in the plane! Not in anyway stating for the record that has been done as it would be dodgy ground, but if such things went on free flying is always a bonus for an hours builder or anyone who enjoys flying but can't afford or wasn't privileged enough to do what you have. :}

Im sure when you were scraping your way through your early flying career you'd have jumped at such a chance.

Unfortunately i have still to finish my PPL (got as far as solo x country) but if i get round to finding the resources to complete my PPL who knows, i could hypothetically find myself occasionally doing some free flying should such a gift horse be offered :ok:.

[Daysleeper]

I have had a reply from the CAA lgal dept, they say that as i'm being paid by my company to take my work collegue flying to operate a survey camera then this is public transport and therefore i or/the operator needs an AOC even though we both work for the same company..?

Hmm. That just don't sound right. You are an employee as is the camera operator (note operator and not passenger). It sound more like aerial work and in fact if its a "trial" for which your company is not being paid its probably private flying.

The CAA is compromised by the fact that they make revenue from the administration of AOCs and thus have a vested interest in increasing the numbers thereof.

IF you still want to be paid extra (as in over and above your pay for non flying duties) make yourself "head of research and development testing (aviation) " with a suitable pay rise.

[Flintstone]

blue monday

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wears a wry grin when they see an Ops bod telling a pilot to go ahead and break the rules. Care to enlighten us as to the identity of this marvellous, professional organisation that employs you? Why not? Surely if all you describe is legal and above board there's no problem doing so. No?

Nothing legal upsets me (as you put it). I have deliberately avoided anything that might have been construed as 'grey' for fear of it jeopardising my professional career. If you feel happy taking chances go ahead. It makes worrying hints at your personality though. Tell me, how far would you go in breaking the rules? Fly unlicensed or unrated? Bust the minima? Fly overweight? Where does it stop?

Me? Privileged? :O That's funny. Like you I had to wait for my flying but I was fortunate enough to work, save the money and pay my way through training. I know you feel you have missed out (from some of your posts) but there's no need to be bitter. Anyway, who says it's too late for you? Depends how much you really want it I suppose. As I like you I'll share the best piece of advice I was ever given which is that the most dangerous thing in aviation is an untested assumption. Untested assumptions kill people especially when added to rule breaking. You sure you want to fly? Might be a brief experience the way you're going.

I would just point out that I have interviewed and rejected pilots whose hours are...dubious. Aviation's a small world and things thought long buried have a way of surfacing. Like I say, take your chances but you'll get a stiff neck spending the rest of your career/hobby looking behind you.

[pilotbear]

wish I had realised I could do it all for nothing I wouldn't have bothered with the 80k spent on my FAA, JAA and Canadian licences and ratings, and gone down the pub instead of doing three jobs whilst studying the ATPL's:ugh: might be making a profit by now.:eek:

[fullyspooled]

Flintstone:

Oh, so you looked at a few log books did you? How proud you must be to have reached such an age and position in our industry, and to have achieved such a high and almighty perch from which you deem fit to judge!

Get a life - get into the real World, and get a job that doesn't piss off the poor unfortunate subordinates that must clearly have to put up with the CR#P that you presumeably dish out on a weekly basis! You dude have a VERY SHORT MEMORY!!!!

With a CPL, and providing that this dude is flying an airplane that is appropriately certificated, he is not logging anything that ANY dictatorial or biggoted PR##K could find fault with.

[fullyspooled]

And another thing, Flintstone, seeing as you are playing the judge here;

1. What is illegal with Aeial Work Flights in a PT aiirplane flown by a CPL?

2. If you are such an ace interviewer, and have the time to study log books in such depth, how come you have so much time to keep up a flying job, a social life AND make 2000 post since 1999? You really should - in my very humble opinion - get a life that is more conducive to "getting on" with people, rather than dictating your "know it all" attitude which is eveidenced by 99% of your posts!

[fullyspooled]

And Pilot Bear - if you spend 80K getting all that lot, you must have done it very recently, and therefoire do not have a wealth of experience from which to comment.

[Flintstone]

And another thing.....and another...and....and...http://www.fadzter.com/smilies/swear.gifhttp://www.fadzter.com/smilies/laughabove.gif

Nowhere did I say that aerial work was illegal on a CPL. My comments were in response to someone saying they might hypothetically fly a 'free' aeroplane on a PPL and 'find' a parcel that had been left on the seat. For the record, what is your view of a PPL conducting thinly veiled but clearly commercial flights in such a fashion? I'm genuinely interested.

Flintstone..... how come you have so much time to ..... make 2000 post since 1999

Well let's see. According to my last post my tally is actually nearer 1300 in almost nine years or (I'll do the numbers for you) one post every 2.48 days. You're right, I really should get a life. Look at me logging in here two or three times a week. Help me someone, help me!! As for having a short memory, hardly. I did however get by at my own expense (had to earn then save the money) and by not resorting to shady practices. Oh, and borrowing another sh*tload of money and selling a house. Sorry if that bugs you.

Seeing as we're playing at 'critique each others posts' while fuelling my PPRuNe addiction just now I thought I'd return the favour and look at some of yours. Interesting pattern. The, ummm...angriest ones are all stamped after closing timehttp://www.fadzter.com/smilies/beerchug.gif but I'm sure that's just a coincidence. ;)

You're right about Pilotbear though. He's rubbish :E (Although his posts in here suggest that he might hold several licences, has been a professional member of this site for nine and a half years and is type rated on some 'nice' machinery which kind of blows your theory that he's inexperienced).

[blue monday]

blue monday

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wears a wry grin when they see an Ops bod telling a pilot to go ahead and break the rules. Care to enlighten us as to the identity of this marvellous, professional organisation that employs you? Why not? Surely if all you describe is legal and above board there's no problem doing so. No?

Nothing legal upsets me (as you put it). I have deliberately avoided anything that might have been construed as 'grey' for fear of it jeopardising my professional career. If you feel happy taking chances go ahead. It makes worrying hints at your personality though. Tell me, how far would you go in breaking the rules? Fly unlicensed or unrated? Bust the minima? Fly overweight? Where does it stop?

Me? Privileged? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/embarass.gif That's funny. Like you I had to wait for my flying but I was fortunate enough to work, save the money and pay my way through training. I know you feel you have missed out (from some of your posts) but there's no need to be bitter. Anyway, who says it's too late for you? Depends how much you really want it I suppose. As I like you I'll share the best piece of advice I was ever given which is that the most dangerous thing in aviation is an untested assumption. Untested assumptions kill people especially when added to rule breaking. You sure you want to fly? Might be a brief experience the way you're going.

I would just point out that I have interviewed and rejected pilots whose hours are...dubious. Aviation's a small world and things thought long buried have a way of surfacing. Like I say, take your chances but you'll get a stiff neck spending the rest of your career/hobby looking behind you.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:4bwEFBWiE7TivM:http://www.businessinnovationinsider.com/images/2006/02/Troll.jpg

Whats he caught - oh look its Flintstone, you well and truely Bit!! :ok:

I can assure you it doesn't happen in my oranisation - hence the word 'hyperthectically' and if it did i'd keep quiet and enjoy the free flying i might work in ops but im not that stupid that i'd look a gift horse in the mouth;), i do know a company who have allowed this practice in the past (will remain nameless incase i go work for them in the future). I see nothing wrong with the situation i described so long as its not a regular practice.

As for you comments re how far would you go, just because you have an ATPL does not mean you don't take risks you should't either, there are too many stories of so called professional pilots doing things they know they shouldn't both in the name of fun and company economics. Pulling CB's for low fly by's, or approach and overshoot, but just hold the overshoot at xx ft and a fly by, high angles of bank or sticking a 757 on its tail during empty ferry flights.

While we are on the subject of being bitter, i'm not bitter, don't know where you got that from, i envy profesional pilots but i'm not bitter, i could sell my £14k car and put all my saving into flying but i do not feel the risks are wirth it. First goal finish PPL then take it from there, i'd likley stick with hobby flying nowadays as the more i speak to my resident Sky Gods the less run of the mill commercial flying appeals, Gear up, flaps up, feet up cup of tea. thats not flying, good money though. Now gear up, flaps up pull some G, down nice and low, now thats flying! and during my time in the RAF i enjoyed a good few jump seat rides doing this, and that is my idea of flying. How many attainable commercial jobs encompass that? Admitidly the pay is good, as is the effect on women from the phrase i'm a pilot don't you know (not bitterness there either, if i were a sky god i'd do the same thing) one could suppose a real pilot (i define this as one who is passionate about flying) would buy themselves a runaround to have fun in when they're not sat with their feet up and a cup of tea.

[Flintstone]

click....click...click... Ah, the sound of blue monday backpedalling :O

Of course, now you've realised how easy it is to identify you and your employer from your posts you have to claim it's all hyperthetical (sic), don't you? Can't have the men in black descending upon your employers, can we?

just because you have an ATPL does not mean you don't take risks you should't either

Whoop! Whoop! Sweeping assumption and massive generalisation alert!! C'mon bm, you're really starting to sound daft now. Should you have any evidence of me doing any of the things in your list of misdemeanours feel free to post it here. Next post if you like. Right now. We're waiting.

my £14k car Well that's me told, eh? I surrender here and now. A....car. Not just any old car but a (wait for it) £14,000 car :eek: I surrender.

an ATPL
"An" ATPL? One? How very dare you.

one could suppose a real pilot (i define this as one who is passionate about flying) would buy themselves a runaround to have fun in
Sounds fine by me but who says that someone who is passionate about their job of flying has to pole small aircraft around on their days off? What a bizarre idea.



Done and dusted methinks. Just as well, we'll be moderated by teatime.




PS. ASHBOW. If memory serves Clacton Aero Club (or one of their business entities) used to conduct aerial surveys, why not have a word with them on 01255 424671. If their AOC still covers it you might be able to work something out with them. To be honest if this is only a one-off flight to prove the equipment you might as well let it go and have your employer pay someone to do it legally. If there are subsequent flights then talk to whichever company does the work and see if there's a way in for you.

[mikehammer]

I quote the eloquent Flintstone:

http://www.barryboys.co.uk/phpBB2/images/smiles/popcorn.gif

[blue monday]

Enough.

blue monday will be taking a couple of days off to practice his fishing elsewhere.

Duck




http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:SeKGlHvuyeF8eM:http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module2/81422/penalty_qjpreviewth.jpg

The Naughty Corner.

[ASHBOW]

PS. ASHBOW. If memory serves Clacton Aero Club (or one of their business entities) used to conduct aerial surveys, why not have a word with them on 01255 424671. If their AOC still covers it you might be able to work something out with them. To be honest if this is only a one-off flight to prove the equipment you might as well let it go and have your employer pay someone to do it legally. If there are subsequent flights then talk to whichever company does the work and see if there's a way in for you.
Thanks for the advice, i think the CAA legal dept will always lean towards public Transport /AOC if the pilot is paid and someone else is carried/working and is not crew (and not included in the exceptions) to cover all angles.

This one off flight if proved to be successful could lead to more work or further R&D .

So if my employer hired the aircraft from for eg Clacton Aero club who has an AOC, who would be the operater if i flew the aircraft , Clacton?, if thats the case then is there a min number of hrs i would need to have with my CPL to fly with that AOC as according to the CAA its a public transport flight .

Can of worms!

[Wireless]

Oh, for goodness sakes. chill out and let it drop.

What is it with childish arguments on this bloody website

[Flintstone]

ASHBOW.

What about piggy-backing on someone's AOC? Happens all the time. Might be worthwhile if the trial is successful and leads to more work.

Will the CAA give you a list of operators familiar with this work? I'd suggest you try to find a tame FOI, there are one or two who aren't complete ogres ;)

[ASHBOW]

Sound a good idea.... I'l make some enquiries.......Cheers

[bookworm]

I have had a reply from the CAA lgal dept, they say that as i'm being paid by my company to take my work collegue flying to operate a survey camera then this is public transport and therefore i or/the operator needs an AOC even though we both work for the same company..?

The CAA tend to avoid getting involved because they know what a minefield this is. And in this case they're giving bad advice -- of course I haven't seen what they wrote: PM me if you like.

Your company is paying for the hire of an aircraft, not for the carriage of a passenger. It's no different from a situation where you go to a flying club and ask to hire a 4-seater to take 3 of your friends for lunch somewhere. In either case the fact that the aircraft would not be hired if the passenger(s) could not come along does not mean that valuable consideration is being given for the carriage of passengers. In fact corporate aviation as aerial work would fall apart if Art 157 were interpreted in the way that they seem to want it to be in this case.

So that makes it aerial work, not public transport. If you had a PPL rather than a CPL, that would be a little different. Then you'd have to be relying on the exemption that permits your employer to pay for the hire of an aircraft that you command as a private flight, "provided that neither the pilot in command nor any other person who is carried is legally obliged, whether under a contract or otherwise, to be carried". That's greyer, but still plausible, provided the survey activity is entirely incidental to your main work. However, since you have a CPL, there's no problem with this being aerial work.

Of course since you're paying to hire the aircraft, the flight is public transport for the purposes of Part 3 (Airworthiness), so it must be on a public transport C of A (these days, it must be "a public transport aircraft", same thing in essence). But so's every aircraft hired from a club.