Qatar Airways extra fuel restriction

[Panadol 330]

Dear C. Technical pilot thank you for Z worst memo i saw in QA in my 8 y flying for QA regarding fuel policy .
Yes you Mr C Tech pilot dont need fuel at all as you seat in office 365 days a year and youre licence expired for Z 2nd times already . It is easy to seat and send letters to other pilots who fly on every day roster "youre extra fuel on LHR sector was found not to be required and we want you to change youre policy " well seat ond fly and then tell us .
Any crash happened due to short of fuel we know who will be on news !
Fuel price today is 112 $ what we need to save any more ?
New pilots,new commanders,new inst,... You are asking for trouble my friend .

I dont give a s....t about youre violation of procedure coz i want to live !

[Two Dogs....]

How full do ya want it? :suspect: Full as a fat girls sock please!!! :O

5 useless things to a safe pilot:
1. Runway behind you
2. Sky above you
3. Air in the fuel tanks :O
4. Engineer eating donuts :hmm:
5. Goat cabin crew :eek:
6. Goat management :eek::eek:
7. Wife who only claims to swallow :{

[Qatari515]

:}Maybe I am wrong, but this new ACN does not change a thing now, does it?

The only thing they ask is not to cheat the system. If you want extra fuel, do it the correct way!

Be a man and fill in the form! Who cares about those letters? If you as capt think its justified to take extra fuel, take it!

Or take the other option, an option many are considering it seems to me, and take CFP fuel and if short do not hesitate and divert! The initial ACN actually said that it would be better for the company to have some diversion rather than to have all flights taking of with too much fuel.

Myself, I still take the fuel I deem necessary for the flight, without going in to excess!

Problem by asking the fuelers to uplift some extra 100s of kgs is that you fool the system into believing the CFP fuel is correct. By doing so the statistically calculated dispatch corrections are wrong as the system will think the CFP was correct --> no correction for the future!

If you fill in the form, even for 150kgs, it allows the results to be changed statistically. Diversions would do the same I guess:}

So the way I see it, we have two options available. The third one (asking the fuelers) is a nono!

[Two Dogs....]

Be a man and fill in the form! Who cares about those letters?

Have some self respect, in a real airline where pilots are a respected team members, letters of this nature (+warning letters) are unnecessary. Stop the letters, show some respect, get due respect returned. The use of letters is an arabic thing, culturally ingrained since the recitation and sadly unlikely to ever change. Do you spend a lot of time in the office 515? :D Do you want type letters 515? :ugh:

[Mr Ho]

Have many letter good work from boss home. Hope get many letter here. Freinds do not wayst fuel!! Alway somewher to land if look hard in mayday. Many strong road good for A320. Passenger walk to plane, then walk away, all people happy :)

[Mike Tuck]

This place is dangerous. Everyone is afraid of thier own shadow. You even have to remember ACNs that have expired, and if you had not joined before the expiration; you still have to know them. Fuel: How about a tanker flight to night layover in BAH. You take 500 kgs extra to cover the APU burn while idly wasting away your unpaid hours, then get a letter saying do not take extra fuel. Resolution - do not take extra fuel and pick up 500 kgs at BAH after having tanked all that extra fuel to Bahrain in the first place. Anyway how much did it cost to tank 500 kgs extra to BAH anyway? It costs more to employ a Pilot to draft the letter of insult. "Be a man and fill in the form" ~ grow up!

Then you have the 'Flight Safety' office; most of them are decent guys, but they are headed by a plank of wood, the well respected Kiptin Dumb~rage; no longer a pilot but loves to insist he is called Kiptin. We are punished while he wobbles his head in glee. What a circus.

[NA]

Panadole 330,

It's seems to me that you are carried with personal issues with the chief pilot technical rather than the professional side, I quote you:

"I don't give a s....t about youre violation of procedure coz i want to live !"

We are all pilots here my friend, you want to tell me that my aircraft is going to fall from the sky if on a good day I decide to take flight plan fuel. So what if I fill this bloody form, when you need some extra fuel.

Be a men and act as a Captain and not as a nagging CSD.

[loc22550]

Na :if you fill up this "bloody" form as you mention.. they will investigate and then they will come to you or send you you a letter telling that extra fuel was not justified...and you have to change your fuel strategy..!
As Panadol mentioned yes it´s quite easy to tell the people don´t take extra fuel when you are seating in a office all the time....

[Qatari515]

Two dogs,


no I do not spend much time in the office, nor do I like typing letters.


But in stead of whining on this forum like and old stray dog, I do what I need to do to get my flight going! And if this means filling in a fuel efficiency form, I will do it. If it means diverting because I do not have enough fuel on board I will do it as well!

And if this is the policy, learn to live with it mate! Its not your company, its not mine either! Filling in forms is indeed an arabic cultural thingv but

RING RING RING

This IS an arabic company! So is it that difficult to do what is asked of you?

Such a fuss over absolutely nothing! Boy oh boy!

[Smirnoff N21]

NA that's what makes a difference between a pro aviator and a empty vessel. Drawing horrible scenarios are usually their speciality which end up in unimaginable speculations like "what if...." or "I told you so...." etc. Too many file X are not good fellas get real. It couldn't be ever simpler if one is capable of managing, using common sense or sound airmanship without going into all the details. I personally would proceed in following order:

safety
commercial
customer careDoing so is my privilege and I don't need to justify anything provided I'm entrusted to be a manager of the company on board. If not then do it like me quit.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Two Dogs....]

Boy oh Boy 515, why do you think there are no trees in Doha? All cut down for letter paper....

[Lulu qatar]

Panadol true what you say . I never saw C.T going for a flight since he took the post . He is busy proving litle small man that he can save the money .
Minimum fuel means 1 G/A and you are diverting and tell me :are you sure you will not do a G/A ?
Bring us back an previous Tech.pilot H.B let him fix all mistakes made by young inexperianced well connected current Tech P.
Let Mr M. fly some time with minimum fuel and get some PIC time.
IAD - mayday mayday we dont have fuel can we land ASAP?
DOH- pan pan fuel status
DOH returning to gate as we burn all 3% fuel for taxi ( dear pax we are returining to gate as we dont have fuel to fly to DXB due to new fuel policy

[loc22550]

Wondering if this "no extra fuel policy" is leading to an increase of non-stablised approach&landing.. (no fuel for a G.A.)..?
I think it happens already...

[Mr Ho]

A320 good good glider. 100 doha at cruse, glide all way, take high speed and roll to park. Pax still sleeping first class couse very quiet :8

[Qatari515]

SNAM,

exactly! Thanks god, somebody knows what he is doing!:ok:

[Pacificbird]

The use of letters is an arabic thing

I beg to differ. On the contrary, you would find letters of such nature singing to the same song on fuel/costs savings/effeciency in almost every airline today. You have to try and appreciate these things from a "business" perspective. As Qatari515 put it and to sum it up in a word..."Discretion"

Happy landings guys.;)

[Lulu qatar]

I knew a CP ,C.T ..... all use to take minimum fule and then they got stuck on low level and when they reach dest the WX +traffic was not as expected and guess what there alternate was alternate for 30 more airline so they couldnt get clereance to land there after that they take extra .
Minimum fule and 1 G/A and you are at alternate . G/A is a normal part of IFR so isnt it stupid to divert for that reason ? Dont we live in Qatar where a poor guy drive Land Cruiser ?
Fule is a Capt who decide and no one can give him a w/l for that and for sure not the one who has his licence expired 3 times in 1 year .
Enjoj minimum fuel untill one day you get stuck and you will learn .
Aske old alive Capt what they think about minimum fuel and you will know .

[Black Stain]

I see nothing changes on the dusty farm. Arabic experts from far away giving advice to poor souls lost in the sandpit. Let us help SNAM, Ho and Pacificbird understand anomalies of mid-east aviation that should affect a captain's fuel uplift calculations. Forecasting, NOTAM and ATC:

1. Visibility is consistently poor. In fact the sun usually disappears into the smog haze before reaching the horizon. Add to that just a 20kt wind and it's on minimums in blowing dust.

2. The ATIS is nothing more than the last published METAR. It is not a "live" service as found in some other countries.

3. ATC varies from excellent to absolutely useless depending on airport and your luck regarding the ATC roster.

3a. Did you know that in 2007 Doha Radar only had 7 full-time rated controllers? (today?) Do you realize that in Doha only one rated controller is on duty at any one time? No relief, no support, not even for the bathroom. I have personally witnessed the SATCO completely lose control of his airspace, about 30 aircraft on frequency, total chaos, two TCAS events resulted. After that incident a vaguely worded NOTAM was issued that suggested it might be wise to carry holding fuel for Doha on Wednesday evenings, no mandatory holding fuel was NOTAMed.

3b. Enroute ATC is equally erratic. Westbound from Doha, or eastbound to Doha, it is not uncommon to be held 4000 feet lower than planned for 800 miles. Sometimes over the Arabian Sea you could be held low for over 1000 miles.

3c. Closure of alternates. On approach to DXB I was once told the airport is now closed due weather, SHJ is likewise closed, AUH and ALN have no space for you, state your intentions. AUH was the flight planned alternate, wisely we had carried DOH plus some.

Long haul flights usually land fat and have little to stress about. It is the short flights around The Gulf where there is usually not enough surplus fuel for even a single go-round and visual circuit before diversion. Add to this the endemic NOTAM, forecasting and ATC problems and you have a fuel uplift question that requires very careful consideration by the commander.

As in all other matters, Goat management has shown its immaturity. Letters and threats instead of training and encouragement. Airmanship replaced by intimidation.

[loc22550]

Definitly ATC need an upgrade here...!
When you see how the traffic has grown during the last 7...8 years here overhead Qatar, and still we have the same ..2 frequencies only..(tower&appr)for the last 10 years probably...! Unbelievable but true!

[40&80]

I sat down at midnight last night and wrote a long story of how an office memo on min fuel loads impacted on GF operations in my day....then I deleted it!.... Having concluded it would only be management pilots and adreniline freaks that would be stupid enough to follow it through and they would soon scare the sh.t out of themselves and go back to flying a desk or find life safer in the sim.
I am glad to see the line pilots at Qatar are well up to speed on the imperfect reality in the daily real line flying world.

[Smirnoff N21]

QR permanently fails to find the so much necessary, nowadays, motivation which in return simply means less costs cause people will start to act in good faith and maintain high level of commercial awareness. Not worthwhile to circumscribe the commander's authority etc. All this artificially fertilized kindergarden simply vanishes lacking foundation. All simple things are brilliant. QR's business model renders it impossible to run a straight forward business thus attracting all sorts of dubious characters basically abusing their positions for own benefits. It's not an airline it's a selfservice restaurant a virtue of all State owned legacy carriers, Im afraid. Double standards, nepotism and last but not least dilettantism create among ethnic groups unhealthy atmosphere and injustice consequently making fear a normal status quo. All the resulting actions bearing fruits of fear. All this is well known and there's a vast interest to keep that status quo as it assures the power behind the throne. Pros don't last at QR's management and key positions, politicians do. Sooner or later everyone will have to make the choice. It's a waste of time trying to improve anything or to appeal to airmanship, reason etc. as fear simply serves as a foil to the folks on power. Today it's fuel, tomorrow it's gonna be something else the outcome is always the same fooling around, bulling on both sides management and pilots. Carelessness is the killer of every profit and QR is no exception. EK has realized it and builds it's model on profit share thus motivating their staff to be proactive and work towards common interestes.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Tintin]

Smirnoff you make me like vodka, very well said. apart for that EK profit share thing...

I can see that its a while that you ve been here

[Smirnoff N21]

Yea, I'm not an expert on EK for sure however a strategic move like a profit share represents a significant step forward. I'm just an observer pointing out the deficiencies seen. QR has made me know what I wanna be like and what I'll never be like. Sandpit a good ground school, if I may say so, cause it forces one to make the ultimate choice in this life. I've made mine.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Black Stain]

then why not maybe writing to your Flight Ops all your problems that you encounter so frequently

Like Smirnoff said SNAM, the Goat problem is power and control related. Suggestions, solutions or even helpful data input has never been encouraged. Pilots are employed to fly exactly as they are told and smile quietly at home on a generous day off. The perfect Goat pilot is mute. In a system based on fear of dismissal it is very unwise to stick your hand up unless you are willing to go all the way.... and maybe have to blow the Catamite King.

(Having said that, a few healthy minds have survived at Flight OPS)

[Black Stain]

In 2002 an ATC mate asked me to think of ways to help with the growing chaos on peak hour radar. A speed control agreement I suggested: "everyone at 300 on descent unless told otherwise". Good idea he said, and took to a formal meeting with Goat Airways management.....

The suggestion wasn't just flatly denied, the Goat reaction was hostile. Who is this controller telling us how we can program our descent speeds? Who is this new pilot that gave him this information? I learnt early on the farm not to try to feed the goats.

Speed control would have improved safety and saved fuel by making the crazy goat airspace more easily managed. These insecure paranoid fools deserve such an awful residence.

[Tintin]

Black Stain, not sure...do you mean lets say .82 transition 300 and 250 below 10000 ??? is so you wont save fuel, but the airspace indeed will be more manageable..back to basic pilot training as well. IOW no self speed management like informing the controller if you slowdown or speed up. Keep the RT to the minimum. Some of us really have to review when you need to read back a clearance when not and what about those who cant stop cutting other to say only useless thing???

When ATC is on peak time no salam aleykum bla bla bla , no sqwaking bla bla bla , no total on board bla bla, if they want it they will tell you when they are ready to copy it . And the most important one before transmit LISTEN..

Smirnoff quote: on EK for sure however a strategic move like a profit share represents a significant step forward

To be a good move you need to have something to share qr still and will for a long time be in the red. So even tomorrow if they tell me they will give me 25% profit sharing of zero. That not what will keep me here ...

[Black Stain]

Minimum landing sequence spacing in Doha is 5nm. 5nm @ 2.5nm/min groundspeed on final equates to 2min. Therefore absolute maximum 30 landings per hour, Doha maybe achieve 25. Anything to simplify and smooth traffic management will increase the achieved landing rate. Holding and extended vectors occur when the required landing rate exceeds the available landing rate. Simple math Tintin.

[Smirnoff N21]

To be a good move you need to have something to share qr still and will for a long time be in the red. So even tomorrow if they tell me they will give me 25% profit sharing of zero. That not what will keep me here ... Right you are tintin, in this regard it's worth to mention no profit was ever intended. Sole purpose of QR is diversion of petrol dollars into private pockets of mighty once in full swing. Why would you establish a separate LTD registered on cayman islands for each and every airplane separately? Old trick banned long time back everywhere else in the world apart from Qatar. Is a offshore entity really needed for state run company? Only if the ownership must not be disclosed under any circumstances that's why cayman islands cause it's forbidden by constitution to disclose the owners. The best ever protection. Mind you that not a single airplane belongs to QR and that with state guarantees in the background signed by Emir. Otherwise the company would have been established in a different form like PLC and would have been listed on the DSM or even as ADR on NSE. Why to bother and not just to take the cash like the previous emir did, will you ask? Well, that will have implications on the state's status and limit the trade chances worldwide (WTO admittance) besides the idea of promoting Qatar is sold to the proud citizens as the ultimate kick and as democratization to the western world. Internally it'll cause destabilization and possibly turmoils among the locals. As well as prime time on most of leading channels is bought for the purpose of promotion but more important cooperation, a wise move indeed. No one has ever heard of evacuation in Madrid on CNN or sky news etc. All this my friend leads to a very instable status quo and permanent fear and uncertainty resulting in political games, double standards, power struggle and abuse. Here is your answer.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Tintin]

Black Stain ???? Simple math Tintin.???? Read carefully...Or maybe it`s my bad english, same school then pita, same same. I just said that if you keep 300 kts in descent you wont save fuel that all. A speed around 270kts will do....

Food for tought Smirnoff

[CEO PITA]

O really 270 will do ?? How much you will save ? 10kg or 25 kg ? WOW and then litle small man can buy new Ferari .
Yes save save please Qatar is poor country .
Why dont you take 1 T extra and avoid diverting and save 30 000 $ in one day ?
Or you just fly green dot

[CEO PITA]

O really 270 kts will do ? How much you will save ? 10kg or 18 kg ?
Please save Qatar is poor country .
Why dont you take 1 T extra and save youre self from diverting and in same time save airline 30 000 $ for diversion ? And you can fly 270 kts or 345 kts or 220 kts dont have to think will i be N 11 for approach and didnt take any extra so better check DMM weather lol lol lol .
What do you do if you ar ein ILS approach and you have unsafe L/G indication ? You do a G/A right till you finish procedure well guess what with minimum fuel you dont have time to do procedure unless you think mr. M Tech pilot can uplift you in the air lol lol !

[Black Stain]

I just said that if you keep 300 kts in descent you wont save fuel that all. A speed around 270kts will do....

Now I am sure Tintin that you understand nothing. No consequence....

[Smirnoff N21]

Come on fellas we' re all taking about the same flying-wise missing the point though.
It shouldn't be problem to depart with OFP fuel if it makes sense.
It shouldn't be a problem to uplift extra fuel if needed.
Neither should it be a dilemma to add additional 20 min flying to LHR.
The problem is simple there's no trust in manage-abilities of the commanders in QR. That's the reason visual wasn't allowed in USA etc.
Whatever the reason might be, let it be mentality culture etc doesn't make any difference cause it's numbing the usual work-flow let alone violates the legitimacy. By it's designation a commander has been delegated certain executive power including the decision of fuel uplift he/she deems necessary. That doesn't mean the company shouldn't monitor the fuel consumption. Statistics at the end of evaluation period will show the black ship. Then it's a matter of administrative approach the to person concerned. That's the way it's done in the normal world. Again motivate your people using various approaches like emotional administrative financial etc and let them fight for your success. Fighting your own fellas is condemned to fail.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks.!!!:ok:

[Lulu qatar]

Smirinoff popay arent you the one who didnt want to take off form KIX with Libyan capt when youre FMGC showed -700 Kg ??? Am sure now in A.A you will take fuel the WX at on south china sea can be intresting .

[oddjob1952]

5 useless things to a safe pilot:
1. Runway behind you
2. Sky above you
3. Air in the fuel tanks http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/embarass.gif
4. Engineer eating donuts http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif
5. Goat cabin crew http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif
6. Goat management http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gifhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif
7. Wife who only claims to swallow http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

As an engineer one of the most useless things in the cockpit are PILOTS who cann't count and who having put a defect in the book refuse to leave the flt deck and let the engineers get on with their job while we also eat donuts at the same time and drink tea. This is due to staff shortage and the amount of work we have to eat and drink on the GO.:ok:

[Smirnoff N21]

LQ KIX is a long flight with approximately 2.5 K reserve fuel alone, if my memory serves me right. It's unwise to insist on extra fuel on such a long flight cause as mentioned here before you won't fall out of the sky and have about 13 hours to decide what to do or where to go. Other than that I won't endure about rumors or speculations to do the dirty job for you. Fight your fight with the person concerned during training meetings where it should be done. Have at least so much balls my friend.
Don't take it personally take it on the rocks!!!:ok:

[Tintin]

Black Stain quote

Now I am sure Tintin that you understand nothing. No consequence....

Ah really try that next time put zero(0) as a cost index and tell me what your speed in descent ...270kts. To have a speed of 300kts you need around a cost index of 170.

Back to basic man, more speed more drag, do you want me to send you some book?

[Ronaldo 330]

Why you guys talking about it at all its 30kts difference how much is saving ?
Its simple Capt duty is to do a safe flight mean to have fuel for his flight and for anything what can unexpected burn more and C. Tech job is to writte letters and there is a waste bin in Tech so just put it there and forget it and go on with taking fuel .
Panadol is right about it and crazy lulu has a point as well .
Today oil is 110 and going down check CNN and enjoj full wings .

[Black Stain]

Yawn.....

Tintin, my given ATC example highlighted the futility of good ideas in Qatar, and was related to ATC airspace management not airline fuel economy; however having said that, speed control will also save an airline fuel and for that reason I entertained your simple question with a simple answer. And although you will probably always remain ignorant, the truth remains for others to see.

Yes a Cost Index zero descent will save fuel, about 40-50kg compared to Cost Index 30. However, every A320 holding pattern will cost an airline approximately 300kg. Given the previously stated problems at Doha Radar, an agreement between ATC and the Goat that will reduce ATC workload, improve efficiency and increase the achieved landing rate would save much more. And enhance safety? Is this too difficult for you to imagine Tintin?

Note: Professor Tintin will now say he rarely gets a pattern in Doha. True, he gets vectored for 30 miles instead. This point highlights the problem. With only one controller available, holding patterns are difficult to manage. Vectoring the indians in a wide arc around the wagons is easier to manage visually by a lone controller.

[Tintin]

Cmon

First you said: Speed control would have improved safety and saved fuel ...notice the last part?????

Then I reply: do you mean lets say .82 transition 300 and 250 below 10000 ??? is so you wont save fuel, but the airspace indeed will be more manageable. And also ad that you where right with the rest

Then thats your reply?? Tintin, my given ATC example highlighted the futility of good ideas in Qatar, and was related to ATC airspace management not airline fuel economy..again notice the last part..

Sorry Im just a ignorant who cant read:confused:
Never mind

[Mike Tuck]

You said it Tintin. Can't write either :ugh:

[Two Dogs....]

You are destined for high office at Goat Airways Tintin :rolleyes:

[Lulu qatar]

You should be in the air with this poor guy today " unable due to fuel " then "request due to fuel "
What will EK think this QR cant aford fuel ?

[Mike Tuck]

You say 'poor guy' I would say 'stupid guy' because he up-held the ridiculous fuel policies by not taking extra (necessary) fuel. :ugh: Hold steady and fly the aircraft safely boys.

[sayap-patah]

Be a man and fill in the form! Who cares about those letters?

regarding form and so many other forms and paper work that we need to fill in...i think there's not arabic way..because what i know arabic people is quit efficient ( since long time back)...maybe its INDIAN way?????..well its arabic company running by indian...or....

[MigratoryBird]

I was trying to look for that letter in my bin, where I threw it a week ago, and I realized my maid (surprisingly) disposed of it...

I mean, I should have at least read it past the paragraph where it said "everyone would like to fly with full tanks..." :yuk:, but my uncontrollable urge to throw up when I saw that made me resist any attempt to finish reading this beautiful piece of material.

I remember the last time I asked the guy at the pump to "fill it up". It was 20 years ago at the flying club.... Is this how the TP sees me?

Sad, sad, sad...

MigratoryBird

[Lulu qatar]

I guess we all did the same . I will not fly around this crazy globe with minimum fuel . n 11 for approach in Doha , doint get FL over Pakistan ,or long R/V to DXB, holding at LHR ,WX at KIX or India ..... minimum fuel = not safe

[MigratoryBird]

Well, we are just supposed to simply go to the alternate, and the company will "support us". This is not in out Part A, but I remember being quoted on the first page of that magnificent letter (yeah, yeah, I read a bit more than the first paragraph, I admit, but I promise I did not read more than one page, honest ;)...) verbatim from another company's OPS Manual. So, let's see, am I supposed to follow another company's OM, or, if the company is so keen that we divert with their "support", why does this policy land in our Part A?

As far as I am concerned, I do as Lulu does: just carry the extra that I am entitled by law. Not "full tanks", not always the same X'thousand kilos, just what I consider to be fair, economic and safe.

HOWEVER, I was trying to go deeper than just what we do in our daily operation with my last comment. "Commander-Dispatcher" decision? "Dispatcher Empowerment"? Deviation from recommended practices in EGLL? :=

Aren't we loosing sight of the ball here? Is it only me who feels patronized?

Disturbing...

Cheers

MigBird