Permit-to-fly restrictions

[Spamcan defender]

Seriously considering buying a Vans RV7 kit and currently weighing up the pro's and con's versus buying a certified aircraft.
One thing that struck me was that homebuilt aircraft are limited to VFR only in the UK. Im sure I read somewhere that with the new-fangled euroregs :ugh: that are making their way over to this side of the channel, there was consideration being given to allow homebuilts the ability to fly IFR. Am I dreaming or is this really the case?????
As the RV is a pretty nippy little aircraft I would be looking to go touring but feel that having an IFR restriction may hamper my options somewhat.

Can anyone give me any pointers as to whether or not homebuilts MAY be given IFR status as they are in the US??

Spamcan

[NigelOnDraft]

We have an RV-8... great machine (as with the 7)...

I would not count on IFR anytime soon, if at all. Even if it were "possible", we have yet to see what Instrumentation would be required to make IFR legal. A lot of RVs have glass cockpits of wonderful instruments, but in practice maybe unlikely to be certified / approved for IFR.

NoD
RV-8 website (http://www.g-hilz.co.uk)

[Steve N]

LAA actually have a sub committee working on IFR/night at the moment. Minimum equipment for IFR is specified in CAP393 and is actually suprisingly little so uncertified glass with the minimum of type certified CAA approved instruments would be legal. RV's are a good candidate as many fly IFR in the US. The RV-9 and RV-10 are the most stable platforms. However I agree with Nigelondraft and won't hold my breath either. I'm told the first are predicted to be those previously flown IFR when CofA that have now gone onto permit.

Steve (RV-9A)

[IO540]

IFR is very unlikely (IMHO) for any non ICAO CofA plane - other than possibly night flight which in the UK is technically IFR but VFR-only helicopters routinely fly at night
already.

"IFR" is a hugely emotional 3-letter word in the world of aviation regulation. You can get practically anything approved in the VFR world (eventually) because ultimately VFR traffic can always be told to remain OCAS and this solves most issues at a stroke, but the moment you allow IFR that implies airways traffic and you impinge on the world of "professional pilots", ATC, and all the other guardians of heavenly purity.

Practically, a plane which cannot climb to FL150+ is a bit useless for Eurocontrol routings, and the resulting weather strategies (VMC on top whatever it takes, or serious de-ice kit otherwise).

[Rod1]

There is a “reasonable chance” that SOME homebuilts will get cleared for IFR in changes being considered along with the Euro LSA cat. It is very unclear how prescriptive this will be and how it will relate to older aircraft. There was an article on it in Light Aviation a few months ago.

Rod1

[gasax]

This has been the 'holy grail' for permit aircraft for quite a while. I have to say I am largely unconvinced.

The majority of aircraft are 'sport' orientated. but that does mean they do not have the solid (many would say stodgy) handling of the certified aircraft. control forces are generally much lighter and whilst they have natural stability they are generally much livilier than the equivalent certified machine.

This does not mention they cannot be flown in IFR, but they will be more work and much harder to do it over any length of time. Fine for breaking through cloud cover but anything more - I'm sceptical.

But let's wait and see.

[Rod1]

The same could be said of a Pup, but it is still cleared for IFR use. The workload is higher than say a 172, but even my MCR can be flown IFR in the US and they regularly are. In simulated conditions, I have managed a "theoretical" IMC renewal in mine.

I have to say I have no real strong desire to get mine IFR approved. I will never bother with an IR, unless the rules change dramatically, so IFR in Europe is not legal. The VFR rules are quite flexible and a single engine non de-ice aircraft has only limited IFR capability unless you are prepared to assume the engine will never fail.

Rod1

[Genghis the Engineer]

A few years ago I sat on a CAA/industry committee (now annoyingly abolished, since it did a lot of good for a while) which amongst other things was looking at IFR use of pemit aircraft - of particular interest being warbirds and PFA/LAA permit aircraft.

It all looked quite viable, and the CAA weren't philosophically against it. The basic aircraft requirements anticipated were:

(1) Primary flight instruments to the same minimum level and standard as would be required on a CofA aircraft allowed to fly IFR

(2) A certified engine

(3) Handling qualities of the aircraft assessed as to the same standard as would have been required for new CofA light aeroplane certified for IFR use.


(1) and (2) were pretty uncontentious, (3) would certainly have excluded some PFA types, but by no means all (not having flown an RV7, I have no opinion on that).

Unfortunately this all died for a variety of reasons that mostly had nothing to do with the commonsense of these ideas, which were fairly apparent to both CAA and PFA. In an ideal world it would certainly have all happened by now.


One thing worth mentioning, whilst you can't currently fly IFR in a permit aircraft, holding a current IMCR or IR, does substantially reduce your personal VFR minima, so allowing you to actually do quite a lot in a permit aircraft.

G

[Spamcan defender]

Interesting stuff there Genghis.....

It would also be interesting to know if there are any committees or groups currently looking or intending to look at this.
The bottom line is that I'm intent on going touring and whilst VFR would be adequate, I would prefer to file airways and get to where I'm going with less hassle. Now I KNOW that there are many folks who tour VFR and thats fine its just that IFR/airways would be my personal preference.

The whole question of IFR permit aircraft will ultimately be the deciding factor whether I build a (new, fast) RV or buy an (old, slow) certified IFR aircraft. Now I reckon that it will be approx 18months-2 years before I would start an RV build so if I hear any murmourings of IFR certification for homebuilts then I would happily build the RV, if not then it looks like a C of A aircraft for me.

Any further info would be really appreciated guys.

Spamcan

[NigelOnDraft]

Nest question then would be how long do you intend to take to build the RV :confused: Minimum would be 1 year (if you work at it as a full time job), maximum 10 years+ ;)

NoD

[Spamcan defender]

Nest question then would be how long do you intend to take to build the RV http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif Minimum would be 1 year (if you work at it as a full time job), maximum 10 years+ http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Ideally I would be looking to complete a build in about 18 months with a std kit. I'm quite handy with the tools having been a mechanic many moons ago and have a good bit of mechanical nous so I reckon shouldnt take much more than that.

Now I know we all have a dig at our American cousins when we can but it seems like they have a bit more foresight when it comes to most things aviation. As they allow RV's to fly IFR (obvioulsy with the correct kit and licence privileges) it would be interesting to know out of curiosity just how many accidents have occured involving US homebuilts flying (legal) IFR. I suspect, not many but stand to be corrected.


Spamcan

[NigelOnDraft]

We took 2 years, in a QB, with part time jobs and lots of long days. 18 months for a Std Kit might be OK, so long as you don't have a job or family :)

You will never complete an RV in the UK without serious self-harm if you spend your time comparing what our US cousins can do compared to the UK requirements :=

G-HILZ - the story of our RV8 (http://www.g-hilz.co.uk)