Delta Ab Initio Program Targets Women and Minorities

[Airbubba]

Unlike many other countries, the U.S. has had few successful attempts at ab initio airline training.

From the Atlanta Journal- Constitution:

AIRLINE PILOT TRAINING: FLYING HIGHER

Delta program for minorities, women starts at ground zero

Nancy Fonti - Staff
Thursday, July 5, 2001


Some people complain about living near an airport, but for Cecil Hannibal the planes thundering above his South Carolina home were inspiration.

On summer days, he'd sit on his front porch watching military jets bound for nearby Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter, S.C. Later he'd drive there to see them land and take off, certain one day he would become a pilot.

"Every day I had a reminder that this was what I wanted to do," Hannibal said.

So he took flying lessons in 1992, passing ground school the next year. But between earning a college degree and getting a banking career off the ground, his aspirations of aviation were postponed.

Earlier this year, Hannibal, living in Jonesboro and working as a senior account executive with Southwestern Bell/SBC Telecom, heard about a new pilot training program aimed at recruiting minority and female pilots, sponsored in Battle Creek, Mich., by Delta Air Lines and Western Michigan University. Hannibal, a 28-year-old African-American, applied and was accepted as one of the eight students on full scholarships.

He quit his job and began the rigorous 14-month curriculum in June. When he graduates, he's guaranteed interviews at Delta's regional units, Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines.

The Delta-WMU program began this year with $1.65 million from the airline, which expects between 24 and 40 pilots out of it over the next four years. The class is getting off the ground as carriers face a severe pilot shortage.

The training is also unique. Called ab initio, which means "from the beginning," it was designed to turn people with little or no flight experience into commercial airline pilots. Students start out learning the basics of flight: aerodynamics, aircraft structure and meteorology, among many other concepts.

After an eight-week stint in the classroom and a round of exams, they move to flight training on a single-engine plane, dividing their time between the classroom and the aircraft. From there, they return to ground school for advanced navigation and learn to fly a multiengine plane. They finish in a 737-400 simulator.

"It's like putting Niagara Falls through a straw," said Heather Burke, who left her job working for Delta as flight simulator engineer to study piloting at WMU. Along with Hannibal, she is one of two Atlantans in the first class of eight students.

European airlines have used ab initio training for several years, said Richard Wright, dean of Western Michigan's College of Aviation. British Airways and other European airlines developed the system because they didn't have a pipeline to fill their cockpits.

"It is very close to the military training," Wright said. "It takes the foundation of the European training model and modifies it appropriately for FAA requirements."

WMU's ab initio program, approved by the FAA, is a relatively new route to commercial flying at U.S. airlines. "It's something of a new philosophy, and it's a philosophy brought about by economic forces as well as technological forces," said David Esser, a professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.

When the eight students finish, they will have just over 200 flight hours each, far fewer than a traditional candidate for a pilot job at a regional airline. Instructors in the program say the extensive classroom time will offset the fewer flight hours and point out that airlines hiring the students will continue training them before they take on commercial flying.

Though many of the doors to careers in law, medicine and business swung open for minorities and women years ago, there are unique barriers to becoming a professional pilot that have kept those groups out of the field.

Traditionally, big commercial airlines plucked pilots from the military. Despite integration by the Tuskegee Airmen in World War II, the armed forces produced few minority pilots interested in commercial careers, and the big airlines were slow to hire those who were. Female applicants were almost as scarce: Women were allowed to fly in combat in 1993. And then there's the lack of role models for minorities and women at the big carriers, which made the field seem hostile to outsiders.

The other road to becoming a pilot, the civilian route, carries a hefty price tag, with some flying courses costing thousands a year. Commercial pilots then spend years working as a flight instructors to build the time and flight hours they need for airline jobs.

The Western Michigan program opens a new pilot pipeline at a time when the industry --- especially the regional carriers --- needs a new source for pilots as those hired after the Vietnam War close in on retirement. If successful, it will also diversify Delta's pilot cadre, said Belinda Stubblefield, Delta vice president of global diversity.

Just 5 percent of Delta's 10,000 pilots are female and only 1 percent are minorities, consistent with other airlines Delta's size.

"We don't want to limit our resource pool," Stubblefield said. "We need pilots, we need to expand the breadth of the pool, and it makes sense for the growth of this business."

Like Hannibal, Burke decided she wanted a pilot career early on. Airports fascinated her since she was a young girl, and she decided she wanted to become a pilot in high school but ended up at Michigan State University on a full scholarship.

She later transferred to Embry-Riddle, where she majored in aerospace engineering. Eventually Burke co-oped at Delta and landed a job as a flight simulator engineer, helping train pilots.

"I've had a lot of 'aha' moments," she said of the pilot training program.

When Burke, Hannibal and the others enter the pilot rank and file as first officers, not only will they be minorities, their training will be different from that of the captains to their left. That doesn't matter to Hannibal, whose aviation heroes were also outsiders.

"I really don't get caught up in this industry being dominated by white males," Hannibal said. "This is my dream, and my role models are the Tuskegee Airmen and Ronald McNair, the black astronaut."


http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/epaper/editions/thursday/business_b34410fd66d4b02c0004.html

[mcrit]

It’s just racism and sexism however fancy the packaging.
I hope Delta gets sued.!!

[tilii]

Not only is this racism and sexism, the "uniqueness" of the "ab initio" course described overwhelms me.

Surely, this has to be a wind-up, someone's 'unique' idea of an 'ab initio' joke? :) :) :)

[mwashi]

Chill out guys. No body needs to get sued.
It is Delta's money and investment. If they get sued then airlines such as Emirates and Singerpore would be sued as well for they don't hire women pilots. It would be stupid for me to sue EK because they won't hire me. Instead, I respect their prefference and I still love Dubai.

And it is not racism either, it's just giving certain individuals fair chances of getting what they couldn't get before, because of how they look.

The 24 Delta's ab initio cadets are already at Western Michigan University. 2 of them are African American males, the rest are white females. I know so because i am a senior(self sponsored) at WMU.

These cadets will receive the best training because EK and BA sends their ab initio cadets at WMU as well.

Be happy for them, it could be your sister or daughter one day.

[wonderbusdriver]

Did anyone notice that they will be "guaranteed interviews" (Wow!!) at Comair and ASA - NOT Delta mainline?
At least they get a full sponsorship.

Good luck to them!

[SKYDRIFTER]

In the USA, women are 53% of the population. Their being referenced as a 'minority' is getting to be disgusting.

Their being treated as a minority is even more disgusting.

If the FACT was that they are equal; preferential treatment wouldn't be a factor - in all of history.

The military is finding that they have to make special arrangements for women, because of the myth of equality.

I've had three female copilots. Each did a superior job of flying. I know they are capable. Let them compete on a level playing field.

[partyreptile]

Hey--I know, lets go out and find some folks who have either no interest in flying professionally, or some who just dabble at it because their real desire does not include the necessary sacrifices that the vast majority of PROFESSIONAL pilots have had to make in order to advance in their careers. Yeah, that's it, we can get some minority's, a couple of chick's, the papers will eat it up! Safety won't matter, we will pair them with someone who has a clue. We can tell the papers that we are having a hard time finding pilots, so we need to go out and make our own. Great! And they will probably be so grateful they won't join that nasty old union either! 2 for 1!
Hope all those guys out there flying in all those jets, and t-props day in and day out, with THOUSANDS of hours doing this for a living won't make too big a squak and blow our buzz.

[m&v]

This programme's not 'new'!..How does it compare to United's Affirmative Action of 20 years ago??With the onset of Civil Right's all the Carriers"entertained" the minorities,and other Language groups..
But I seem to recall that United discontinued the programme as too expensive an outlay for the 'final' result..
Please correct my understanding of this!!

[Smoketoomuch]

It may improve Delta's image among a few people but I doubt it will improve race relations.

[mwashi]

Partyreptile,

These cadets are not just people recruited to become pilots without any prior intrest on flying. It is just like British Airways ab initio program, except that Delta recruits candidets with at least a four year degree,(currently, besides loads of hours, they preffer a masters degree for direct entry pilots).
Unlike the EK or BA cadets who go direct to the boeings or the airbuses, Delta's cadets will go to the subsidiary regionals first.
Ok, so you work hard to get where you are, and so do I. But these cadets, will be stuck with a contract and low pay until their investment pay off, while me and you enjoy our no strings attached with better pay.
Pilots who got it made are military pilots(At least for USA). My best friend just got accepted in a C-5 unit. She is going to her C-5 class in August. She graduated from WMU and had about 300 hours total time when she got accepted. Although it my tax money that would pay for her training and salary, I am happy for her. After four years of serving the country, she will come out with thousands of hours of a heavy metal tube. Heavier than any 747. That is what I call "GOT IT MADE".

[partyreptile]

hey mwashi--I got some news for ya sparky--after 4 years your chick c-5 driver will still have 5 years left to serve, and will not have "thousands of hours", and just for another little tidbit-the 747's run heavier than the c-5's, that is when the -5's run at all. clearly you need a couple of bucks to go buy a clue.

[mwashi]

Partyreptile,

May be I should correct myself by rewording my above statement. C-5 is bigger than 747. It is the second largest aircraft in the world, the Russian one is the first.
May be you need more facts of life as well "there are some bigger aircraft than 747".
More clues for you: C-5s can carry 2 CH-53E, the largest helicopter in the world.
Secondly, the last time I saw 747 next to a C-5 was 3 months ago, at WMU Battle Creek, Michigan when Airforce One brought President Bush, and a C-5 was carrying his Limmo and security personells. C-5 was quite larger.

I hope I don't have to explain to you what is an Airforce One as well!

[Slacker]

I hate women pilots, they all have ego problems. What's next, deaf and blind pilot scholarships?

[TowerDog]

The B-747 is heavier, (833,000 = -200, 870,000 = -400)
and have more power than the C-5.

The -5 may look fatter on the ramp, but if it beats the 747 in anything (With the exception of maintenace cost) I am not aware of it.

The Russians have something bigger again, but hardly a commercial success.
(Like the Spruce Goose, it is still the worlds "biggest" in some category if I am not mistaken....Probably not.. :D)

[partyreptile]

MWASHI
why do I get the sense that you are a chick flight instructor at the college that is fronting for the delta ab fab eyewash?

[Sagey]

Slacker WROTE:I hate women pilots, they all have ego problems. What's next, deaf and blind pilot scholarships?

Ladies and Gentleman xxxx Airlines operates an equal opportunities policy, your captain today is xxxxxx and his guide dog os xxxxx

Nah cannot imagine it some how <g>

On a serious note, is anyone clued up with US law??, such a scheme in the UK would be illegal.

However, US law is governed by the Supreme Court. In the 60's certainly under the Warren Court they would have loved such a policy. Not sure if the Court is predominantly Democrat or Republican but that would surely have an effect on the legality of such a scheme.

If you good enough regardless of race, sex then you deserve to get on the scheme.

Sagey

[Chimbu chuckles]

Both the interviewed Cadets stated they had a life long love of aviationand yet ended up doing something else without,it seems, having made much of an effort to realise that dream. Now that most of the hurdleshave been removed they are fronting up with lots of enthusiasm :rolleyes:

Chuck.

[aphrodite]

I hate sexist and racist people.
But, if it wasn't for the racist and sexist people, then there would not have been the need for such a scheme.
The fact is, certain people, due to gender or race, were denied oportunities for the longest time. Even the government knows that. I myself didn't know how bad things were until I met the WASP and the Tuskegee Airmen.
It is a new century and a new millenium. We should all embrace the changes for the sake of future generation. Hopefully, they will all view each other as human beings regardless of gender or race. Hopefully, the best qualified candidate will get the job regardless of gender or race.

[mcrit]

Aphrodite
I’m a little confused by your last post. At the start of it you imply the ‘ need for such a scheme ‘ , yet at the end you state that you hope the ‘ best qualified candidate for the job regardless of gender or race ‘ is successful.
Well which is it? You can’t have both!
:confused:

[cyclops]

Wow!! Do some people have problems. The fact is that there is now in the U.S. a vast shortage of well qualified pilots to fill slots in the airlines. Used to be that you got your licence and then took all the crap jobs going to get 2,000 hours, proving on the way that you wern't going to kill youdelf and others. Then a major might look at you. If they did there was an extreme learning load to fill in all the gaps that the FAA training system did not cover. There was a problem here for the airlines - many students could not produce the goods and the failure rate was high representing lost money for the airline.

With the shortage of well qualified pilots the 2,000 hour has been reducing, some airlines coming down to 600 hours. This required an even steeper learning curve for the candidates with higher failure rates. There had to be a better way!!

Delta are to be congratulated. They have been prepared to look at all training systems and have seen what other major airlines have been doing - tight screening of ab initio candidates, insistence on high qualifications and high standards to be maintained through out the course. The same course that BA et al do.

The result will be a professional pilot. This will not be - you are black, yellow, brindle, female, minority etc, here have a licence. There is too much at stake for all. The students must prove themselves in the same course as BA, WMU must be able to deliver the goods to the airline, Delta must be able to justify the system to themselves and to the FAA.

It is the start of a new training system for the US. For the pilots who ground out the hours in the crap jobs- don't be bitter with these students - try thinking about the system that required you to make the sacrifices.

For those of you who hate women pilots - how sad. :D

[TowerDog]

I agree with one of the above posters:

If aviation and a flying career was so important, why wait till it is handed to you on a silver platter?

It was always available, just not for free.

Why is it that white males have to work hard AND get to the bottom of the priority list?

(Even pay for flight school)

[Roadtrip]

Cyclops -
US Major airlines don't need to have 200 hour copilots flying heavy jets like BA et al. There are more than enough well qualified and well experienced pilots standing in line. 200 hour copilots in airliners is just plain wrong. That is not as safe as it needs to be AND it is unnecessary. The US military does it, but then it has a very strict training program that typically washes out at least a third of a group of the previously screened candidates - probably much more tightly screened than Delta is doing - unless you use skin color and dominant homones as the criteria. After that, those pilots are in a tightly-knit squadron environment where they are supervised, constantly trained in simulators and inflight and monitored by the same people all the time - NOT a different captain every time they go to fly and probably NEVER seeing any such thing as a chief pilot or some such supervisor.

That ab initio program is a politically correct PR stunt. My guess is that their program's rigor will be proportional to the the ability to pass it and those that do will suffer a sigma, regardless of their true ability.

[ohboy]

Lucky Ba*&^%#s...... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[mwashi]

Partyreptile,
I am doing my second degree at WMU but I am too experienced for the ab initio program ;)

Cyclops,
Well said.

Roadtrip,
Cyclops is absolutely right.
I am not sure about the majors but the regionals seems to be hurting for pilots. Delta cadets will not be going to Delta main line directly, but the subsdiaries first, Comair and ASA. probably flying the EMB 120s before upgrading to the RJs.
Just like BA or EK, these cadets will be trained very well. And I am sure if BA was not satisfied by the quality of the training that their cadets receive, they wouldn't be sending the 8th speedbirds to WMU. Delta must have put that into consideration before dumping $$$$$$$ to such a program.
Comair and ASA have been hiring people with low hours for a while(even before becoming whole Delta). Especially if you went to Flight Safety or Comair Academy.
Now most of the attention seems to be at WMU. Mesaba usually come to WMU and interview WMU grads, most of them CFIs at the college with less than 1000 total time, White males or not White males.
COEX and PSA requires even lower hours for WMU flight program grads.

As for people who don't understand Delta reasoning for the program, there are some programs that give scholarships to men as well here in the US. At my first college, male nursing students were given scholarship to attend the nursing program because they were non traditional. I got some because I was doing my A&P(AME). It goes both ways.
I don't think Delta is denying anybody a chance, but rather giving someone a chance.

I am sorry if I am offending anybody here. These are just my opinions, I am just a very optimistic person. I work as hard and sacrifice as much to build my hours just like some of you. There is no doubt that I would have applied for the Delta program if it would have happen at the right time for me. But, that doesn't give me an excuse to take out on the cadets who got their way paid for.

[partyreptile]

lets cut the polite P.C. crap. The simple fact is that in this case, Delta has decided that it is more important to push a group of under/unqualified individuals that consist of "minorities" in order to trumpet their p.r. instead of putting the safety of their passengers first. It is just that simple. There is NO shortage of HIGHLY qualified pilots in the U.S., this is due to the flying conditions here that all in the industry are well aware of. Simply because the vast majority of people in airline mgt. turn a blind eye to the ongoing problems of targeting selected groups for jobs in order to appear more "sensitive" to the new multicultural boondoggle does not mean that there is no problem, just take a look at the United 747-400 incident in SFO. An open secret at United, with the lucky result that no one was killed. You cannot compensate for little or no experience.

[Ramrise]

Airlines hire people who happen to be pilots. This fact seems to be ignored by everybody. The ideal is a 5000 hr. nice guy new hire. The next best thing I guess depends on your view. A 5000 hr. jerk or a 300 hr. nice guy? Personally I can see it both ways but I think that airlines find it easier to train people to a set of standards, rather than fix attitudes.

[Roadtrip]

The fact is that 5000 hr "jerks" don't get hired and the fact that you have 300 hours doesn't mean you're a nice guy/gal. Having flown heavy jets for several years in the civilian industry, I've only flown with one guy that I considered a jerk (but was a good pilot). I'd say that's pretty good screening on the part of the airline recruiters. If these people that Delta wants to hire are so good then they ought to compete fairly with everybody else. I stand by my statement that it's a cheap PC PR gimick that is "pre-destined" to "succeed" - just like UAL's preferential hiring - albeit the truth is otherwise.

Ramrise -You can't fix "attitudes" or personality disorders with training. That is all a baloney smokescreen.

mwashi - Would it be ok with you if an airline had ab initio scholarships for white anglo-saxon males only? . . . I didn't think so.

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]

[Brad737]

This is 2001, not 1961. The professional flightdeck has been open to anyone and everyone for many years. Anyone who's got what it takes and is willing to sacrifice for several years as an "intern" making little money while you hone your craft and gain experience has had a shot. This reverse discrimination has got to stop. No woman nowadays has been forced to stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. And no African American alive has been a slave. For many years the Equal Opportunity movement has attempted to offset past wrongs but none of those getting the handouts were wronged. They're descendants of those wronged. They, themselves, have had ample opportunity to excel. If Delta(and lord knows United) wants to hand out scholarships to their flight training program they should open it up to all. All you P.C.types can hammer me now!

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Brad737 ]

[mwashi]

Roadtrip
Where have you been all your life?
There was an ab initio for the anglo-saxon white males, the military.
Do you know most of US major airline pilots are ex-military pilots? Are you mad at them as well because all their flight training and hours were paid by your tax money?
Is your problem the fact that these cadets will be working for Delta with less than 300 hours? Or, that they are women and minority?

Do you have children? A daughter may be? How would you feel if she wants to follow your footsteps and got accepted in the Delta program? Would you tell her "no honey, you can't have your way paid for. You must work as hard as I did............".
If you are that kind of a father, I feel for your children.

[Corporate Yank]

You better believe that more than one corp ceo is reading this thread and wondering about his/her next airline flight. Your youngster will have one hell of a time delivering all the slf in the same shape they boarded if #1 vapor-locks. Keep it up all you far 121's, all you're doing is selling more corporate airplanes and providing the jobs that go along. BTW, even UA is planning to launch a frax program. Where the hell are they going to hire pilots for 95,000 US (includes fringes and makes paychecks around $65,000 US) for all the airplanes they ordered. Check out the latest AIN (AINONLINE.COM, issue 7/01 p. 112) for this data. THANK YOU united airlines for providing even more job security for me and my mates. I can't wait to see what your alpa employees have to say about your hiring 737 pilots for your biz jet charters at that rate. -CY

[Ignition Override]

Whew: what a can of worms! Partyreptile and Brad 737,among others, hit the nail on the head.

Some personal observations, after a bit of off-the-wall info. The US military has trained ladies to be pilots for over 20 years. This, along with civilian flying, has often led to airline jobs. They can now have equal access to fighters/attack/rec/ASW/ planes: which can result in a horrible POW camp if shot down and unable to be rescued. But many of your sisters, daughters fought for many years for the job opportunity. Nothing implied here, just factual.

My lady FOs have the same backgrounds and hours as the guys and do just as good a job in the cockpit-read that again if anyone chooses to read something into the previous paragraph: i.e. ladies with seven years on the Saab 340 at Am. Eagle, Learjet Chief Pilot, regional and DC-9 hours, T-38 IP (she also flew the C-5, now is Aircraft Commander in Reserves), C-141 Stan Eval before Lear based at Ramstein AFB, Germany. This is very competitive experience, even more so in certain cases. Similar experience should not attract any complaints. I've never had anything against lady pilots or I would say so right here. If there are any ego hang-ups, I've not seen it yet-it can also happen with guys.

What bothers so many pilots is that United (maybe many others) was forced to comply with a court order, which forced United to exclude many pilots having 3000-8000+ hours in favor of certain preferred "categories", many of whom had 300-500 hours etc, at least from what I've heard. Good gosh, after working as 727 FE, just how do such very inexperienced pilots pass IOE as a 737 FO thru intensely busy airspace? If they can learn to keep ahead of the plane and anticipate what ATC and the weather might throw at them, then they are very, very good. I have nothing against them personally (and sympathize with the possible anguish of many, who require so many extra hours of IOE: fifty, or a hundred... extra hours, before release to "line-flying" is possible?), but I doubt that United's upper mgmt is concerned about the success of the new pilots-the quotas have been filled.

A judicial process was allowed to override safety concerns and competitive hiring. If pilots, for the type of flying (transport vs mostly tng jet/attack/rec/fighter/ASW), compete with about the same experience, that is fair competition. If hiring could be with an open mind, based on equal experience, then who needs ethnic/gender categories on an application form?

Just for sake of comparison regarding total hours, however relevant to airline flying or not: years ago, all Air Force Pilots who received their wings went straight to operational tng, on transports, tankers, bombers, tactical or trainer jets etc. But in those days, they all had centerline-thrust restrictions until qulified in their "line flying" plane. Most had no training to go "jump in" any plane unless it was center-line thrust only.

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

[Ramrise]

Roadtrip,

it's correct that having 300 hrs. doesn't necessarily mean that one is a nice guy. My point was that PEOPLE get hired, they want a person, not just a logbook. And an ab initio program is designed for people who do not have the hours, yet. But of course ,generally speaking, the more experience you have the better. And the airlines prefer it that way as it is cheaper for them.
My use of the word jerk by the way was probably somewhat misleading. A person may be considered "unfit" by a company for a number of reasons.

:cool: :cool:

[Roadtrip]

mwashi -
Where have I been all my life? Oh my gosh, all over aviation and the world as a matter of fact. Military, civilian, fast jets, civil transports, light aircraft. Copilot to instructor pilot and evaluator. Never crop dusted though, but it looks like hard work but fun.

As a matter of fact none of my children show any interest in aviation. Just as I would not want my daughter having the "free-ride" stigma because of her gender, I wouldn't want my son to be denied the opportunity solely because of his genes.

In case you suffer from low blood pressure read my words again --

That ab initio program is a politically correct PR stunt. My guess is that their program's rigor will be proportional to the the ability to pass it and those that do will suffer a sigma, regardless of their true ability.

Ramrise - People with logbooks are people too. They're people with a track record. Past performance is a good predictor of future success. People with logbooks usually have aviation work histories with recommendations from others in the industry. If companies are forced into ab initio programs to fill the ranks, then they ought to be fair and impartial and based on merit criteria - not genes and gender. I hope someone sues the hell out of DAL for it's blatant discrimination.

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]

[Ramrise]

Roadtrip,

you're right. Nobody should have an advantage because of gender or ethnic background. I think that I might have read this thread wrong, the main focus was not on ab initio programs per say, but on affirmative action and this particular ab initio program. In that case we agree totally, advantages gained because of gender or ethnic background are bogus.

[Loony_Pilot]

Roadtrip-

Ab-initio programs have been operating in the UK for almost 40 years, they are a proven way of getting good quality pilots

The training is intensive and of extremely high quality...

I have plenty of friends who are first officers on a variety of aircraft from the Dash-8 to the A330 and they are all excellent and safe airline pilots, they all had between 170 and 300 hours when they got their airline jobs.

Despite your reservations about low houred pilots European Airlines have used this method for decades and Western Europe's safety record is certainly no worse than the USA's.

It seems that the USA system is more reliant on quantity of hours, the European system on quality of hours.

LP

[Brad737]

looney, a 170 hr Dash 8 FO?---those had better be some serious "quality" hours, like astronaut or something. The US has been able to rely on quantity of hours because we have an extensive general aviation base that Europe does not. Europe's early reliance on ab initio training programs is a matter of necessity, not a philosophical choice.
mwashi, that was one confusing post. US political concerns over women in COMBAT aircraft and their possible exposure to a COMBAT situation are what drove that policy, historically. Women have been taking advantage of military flight training for many years. Even, recently, combat aircraft(with unfortunate results). The rest of your response was emotional and illogical drivle. Whether or not I have a daughter would have no bearing on a ridiculous, wrong minded, and discriminatory practice.

[mwashi]

Roadtrip,
None of the US airlines are forced to get into an ab initio type of training for their pilot. Delta decides to do this on their own. So if you work for Delta, I suggest you should take it to ALPA. If it bothers you that much, then take Delta to court.

As for the guy who said I was too emotional: I am a real woman, it's my nature. As for the illogical part: I was trying to make some of you view the situation on a different angle without calling anyone a name. I guess i can't have an intellectual discussion with some narrow minded people.

Well, I guess some of you know how it feels to be on the disadvantage side. It hurts, doesn't it?
Get used to it, and good luck to you.

Case closed,
See you in other forums and threads. ;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

British Airways have been putting 200hr guys and gals into heavy jets operating out of the London TMA since 1963.

Without incident.

'Nuff said.

WWW

[Roadtrip]

Generally, hours criteria is only one aspect of ones qualifications. Experience is another. Military aviators get hired more easily because their training is of known quality and they have ample experience in complex fast jets or heavy jets. A military aviator may get hired with 2500 hours while a civlian regional guy might have 5000- but the civlian guy accrews those hours alot faster. Ab initio training is VERY expensive and VERY time consuming and what do you have in the end? A 200 hour well trained pilot, but still practically zero real experience. US airlines haven't had to do ab initio programs in a very long time. There's no need to. We can get better, experienced pilots with proven track records that can be flying the line in 10-12 weeks. In Europe there must be a severe shortage of experienced aviators if airlines need to put 200 hour pilots in a airliner. Of course, if you don't need to make a profit like BA evidently doesn't need to, then sure, knock yourself out guys, hire 'em off the street with nothing more than a good attitude and good test scores and dump tons of money into your training budget -- unless you're applying to Delta's program, then you have to have the right skin color or hormones.

That ab initio program is a politically correct PR stunt. My guess is that their program's rigor will be proportional to the the ability to pass it and those that do will suffer a sigma, regardless of their true ability.

Brad - Don't get put-off by mwashi. She doesn't have a logical/moral arguement, so she does what "real women" sometime do - get mad and have a tizzy.

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]

[Pandora]

To all the Yanks out there who are knocking ab initio training and low hours pilots, maybe it is just the quality of US flight training that is making you nervous? I spent 2 months training in the States, with the instruction that I was to return to England with an extra 70 hrs. Now I already had 120hrs pottering about in the UK, and I can honestly say that in 70 hrs of US instruction I learnt nothing new. I tried everything I could think of to coax the instructor into teaching me something - anything - flying related, but he had no pearls of wisdom. Maybe the fact that he kept on muttering about how unfair it was that I would be flying a 737 in less than a year and he would still be hour building had something to do with it.

Ab initio training works well for BA, BM, KLM, Lufthansa, Swissair, Air France, SAS..... I could go on all day. The training is thorough and the standards high. It is a real shame the USA has to give a bad taste to something that should be welcomed with open arms. It should be your ability to fly that makes you a pilot, not your ability to throw money at it.

Oh, and hands up those who have never been a low hours pilot. ;)

[Flare_you_fool!]

This thread isn't about ab initio training it's about Delta starting an ab initio training program and only letting minorities and women into the program!!!!!!!!!

[keg167l]

FyF,

Delta did not start the ab-initio program, WMU did. Delta have just chosen to give scholarships to selected students. Anyone can apply to join the course. If selected (and the course demands a certain educational level, normally a college degree) they'll have the same 'advantages' as the Delta students. It is not a cheap course, but concentrated education is not cheap. Ask any lawyer, doctor, or other professional.

RB

[Low_and_Slow]

This thread isn't about ab initio training it's about Delta starting an ab initio training program and only letting minorities and women into the program!!!!!!!!!

Hmm, as far as I can see, they didn't start a program. They simply decided to pay for a bunch of people to use the WM program. You can do the same program if you want to spend the dollar$. Not really any different than Delta giving some money to the United Negro College fund or some other charity that mainly benefits one group.

As for its legality--that would likely depend on what kind of mood we find Sandra Day O'Conner in on that day.

As for whether it's right--I personally prefer programs based on economic criteria (ie. some allowance for poorer schools and worse opportunities for those growing up in disadvantaged areas, less mentoring), not race based. Given that, there is a dearth of minority and woman pilots. The goal of a program should not be to equalize the numbers overall, but to equalize incoming pilots to what they should be, and to provide the support opportunitues (mentoring etc) that those pilots would have had where there more senior woman and minority senior pilots.

All this being said, I don't particularly like the delta program because it aims for the wrong people. In europe Ab-Initio training is much more the norm than in the US, and thus someone coming out of high school or University and seriously looking for an aviation career might be expected to wait until entry to the program to start flying seriously. In the US, someone who really wants to fly is likely to at least have taken some flying lessons. The solution would seem to be to assist [partially fund] those who have already expressed interest and taken concrete steps towards the goal, not people who took other career paths and only showed the inclination to actually do something about it when it was handed to them on a silver platter.

I have an African American friend who is working on an IR now who wants to fly for the airlines. He has expressed the interest and has made some personal sacrifices to reach his goal. I'm sure he'd like some money if they want to send it his way.... null

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: What was the DH again????? ]

[Flare_you_fool!]

RB,
You know what the intentions of the statement were, yes WMU already had the program, the thread is discussing Delta's policy and selection criteria for award of the scholarship ie women and minorities only
Personally i couldn't care less who they give them to.
Regards FYF

[Roadtrip]

Pandora -
The average new hire copilot at a US major airline has at least several thousand hours of experience, probably military fast or heavy jet, or a civilian corporate or regional captain with lots of airline command experience. They'll have an full ATP license, command experience, lots of actual instrument time, and a track record of success. I'll stack any of those guys up against your best 200 hour student pilot any day.

If some European & UK airlines are desperate enough that they feel they have to fund very expensive ab initio training schemes, then I say have at it. I'm just glad those costs aren't coming out of my profit sharing check.

[TowerDog]

Roadtrip:

Yup, ya hit the nail on the head:

I got hired with a US major late last year
with 11000 hours and a bunch of heavy PIC time.

With experience floating around it is hard to see the need for expensive Ab-Inition programs.

(Some of us middle age guys have a great personality, super clean background and we are just as loyal and trainable as the 200 hour wonder-boys and girls Delta is looking to spend tax-deductible money on..
But, aye, we ain't "Colored" or feminine enough.)

A bit too politically correct for this old TowerDog.

Sounds like nonsense to me.
Take on the commuter guys and girls instead. Those that have paid their dues and paid for their training.
Whether they are white, brown or black