Thread grammar

[Coleman Myers]

Could all who (just like me), practise English as a second language, please try to make some sense in your postings.

English is the international language of aviation. And until the forum swithces to Hausa,Fulani or Swahili, so too, is it the language of the threads !. Maybe a sub-section in local languages may become a reallity, as it is with European forums.

For now, each time we rant and rave about "racist whites, the evils of colonialism and why our airspaces are really very safe" in half intelligable babble, it just quantifies the generally held "dim view" of African aviation.I dont think anybody expects editorial brilliance, but a post should make basic sense (many don't).

Let's hold our heads up and make proper statements when representing our continent in dialogue with our global aviation counterparts.

[Tin-Tin]

WTF!!!!:ooh:

[Dark - Knight]

No Tin Tin....it's not WTf...that's why Coleman Myers started the thread....isn't it about time? So be it.....!!!! You go Coleman.....it are not liking to be speaking wif a jean pant!!!!!:{

[nemesis mk1]

I thought that english was the only language accepted in aviation. The main reasson why i'm responding to this thread is because Airlink is no longer my home and i wish to improve my comunication skills. So i welcome comments and severe critisism. Its the only way to grow

regards

nemesis mk1

[chuks]

I know this news is surprising but it's so that English is just one of the languages used in aviation. Each country can use its national language too, with English usually available from ATC and from major airports.

Germany, for instance, has several different radio licences, one of which is for German-speaking pilots only. If you want traffic advisories at a small air strip then you can expect the radio traffic to be in German, when you will need a licence that says you can officially speak the language if you want to communicate. There is absolutely no requirement for them to use English and in fact if they don't have a licence for that then they are not allowed to.

So don't expect everyone everywhere to speak English; English might not be available and that is because it is NOT the "official language of aviation."

That said, yes, isn't it interesting how thuggish some folks seem to come across in their posts when obviously they think they are promoting or protecting their national interests and fighting perceived "racism" and "discrimination." It usually seems to come down to some version of "Whities go home!" written in txt spk or gibberish by someone wanting in emotional maturity and speaking for entire countries or even Africa or the Third World as a whole. Wasn't it Eldridge Cleaver who said that, "If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem,"?

[MamaPut]

Chuks,

English may not be the official language of aviation, but the International Civil Aviation Organisation has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology. The regulations are contained in Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5.

[Lifes-a-Beech]

Well! That sorts that out then, doesn't it?!

[unstable load]

While I agree with the topic of this thread, it is worth pointing out that for a lot of people in Africa, English may well be a second language. Having said that, it is well accepted that learning and becoming profficient in English is probably one of the biggest challenges a person can face, so let's cut the other less fortunate guys a bit of slack.

My pet peeve is on a sub-heading of this thread, which is people writing like they speak, ie- slang/patois whatever you want to call it, and doing so because they are simply too idle to apply themselves eneough to show a little respect to others whose English may not be great to start with. These poor souls suddenly find themselves drowning in what appears to be (and often is) gibberish thanks to an insensetive person trying to be amusing.

[chuks]

Don't be put out if you get other traffic talking in another language than English, is my point. Some guys take that personally, as if there is something wrong or illegal with using another language than English, when that is not the case.

Just for your own safety, to keep some SA (No, the other SA, Situational Awareness) it's a good idea to know some basic French when flying in North Africa, for instance.

That English is required, well, okay, but that ATC guy might not be real happy if you hit him with a fast blast of English just because you can, as if to prove a point. I have seen situations where doing that results in a looong silence until trying again nice and slow, at a pace a non-native speaker is comfortable with. "Being polite," I guess you could call that.

To that other dude: You wants to through me wif a stone? Is it cos' I is black?

[MamaPut]

Hm, do I detect a hidden agenda here :confused:

[asacrj]

Sorry new to this forum.
I'm a little confused about this tread. Are you suggesting that to work in aviation you have to speak perfect english.
For the quote, who ever wrote it must have been very made at something. He had some good point however.

[chuks]

I take the point to be that we should try here to write in correct English, given that English is the language in use. Txt spk, gross errors in speeling and grammar ("it's" when "its" is meant and the "greengrocer's apostrophe" are two that really stick out)... you see folks really go off the rails when the rule of thumb seems to be, "The angrier the poster the worse the quality of the English."

We all make mistakes but some people just seem to have a simple mind-set that English is to be treated as a joke; any old rubbish should do. Guess what happens when you hand in a CV written with obvious mistakes or find yourself unable to speak "propah" when being interviewed?

First and foremost, having good (not perfect) English is a safety issue for any pilot. Next it is a way to find work. Finally it is a way to enhance yourself. If you want to just speak like a ghetto thug then a career as a DJ might be okay, but not one as a professional pilot. "Dis be de Captain talking at you. Players and bitches, one of de engines be illing but, 'Chill.' We be cool wid dat. Yo!"

Aviation is necessarily international by its very nature and it's up to us to keep some level of tolerance going even when we feel ourselves put under pressure. Yes, Africa has lots, even too many perhaps, foreigners taking work that might or should go to locals. That is not really grounds to spit the dummy, is it? If you stop and have a think about it you can usually see some failing in whatever nation needs to bring skilled workers in since years to keep this or that industry going. To just lash out at the foreign workers is being a bit obtuse and then to do that using very poor English really just proves a point, I fear.

It isn't a race-based issue at all. Here in lily-white Germany we have little pockets of melanin-deprived neo-Nazi thugs following the very same agenda, "Jobs for locals, foreigners out," that one can see put forth here by some random Africans. It has to do with having the proper skills set to do a job; that goes back to the government providing opportunities to learn and individuals taking those opportunities. If you snooze, you lose!

[dakotanorb]

Sorry to tell. but you can not do an IFR flight in Germany on a German license if you do not have a BZF 1.
A BZF 1 is a radio license that certifies you that you are proficient in English radio communication.
You ere also not allowed to fly outside of German speaking territory if you do not have this type of radio license.
Further, there are a lot of company's that build aircraft in country's were English is not the native languish. There is Brasilia, Bombardier and Airbus Industry. All of them supply there aircraft manuals and updates in English. They offer other languishes but always state that the valid version is only the English version and English is the master document.
I´m German and had to learn English to work in civil aviation and I believe that if you want to have a chance to have a career in aviation you will have to learn English!
Try the postal service if you are french.
Fly save

dakotanorb:ok:

[chuks]

... make that Greater Germany, I guess.

You have three different radio licences of which I held one and now hold another:

There is a German-only radio licence, the "Restricted" one.

There is a German and English radio licence, the "General" one.

There is a "General" one that is restricted to the use of English only, so a restricted, unrestricted licence. I had one of those and got the restriction lifted by doing a rather thorough radio test in the German language. Even though my German can be fairly rubbish I have a paper with an official stamp that says I can so speak German! Hah!

[asacrj]

First and foremost, having good (not perfect) English is a safety issue for any pilot. Next it is a way to find work. Finally it is a way to enhance yourself

I beg to differ with that statement. You see, my first job in aviation was with a compny called air afrique that used to flight not only to most of west africa but also to europe and america. AlthoughI was not a pilot, I worked as an engineer dealing with pilot and I can tell you 100% that the majority of them could only speak enough english to get them through air traffic control in none french speaking airspace. The reason was when cadet pilots were offered a job, they used to go to france for flight training for about 3 years. Now you tell me if you can learn and speak proper english while studying in a french speaking country and be proficient.
I know speaking english is required to operate an airplane for the most part but I dont think that it is a way to enhance yourself. It is easy said and done for you english seaking fellas. As for as non english speaker at least we are trying so maybe we should get a break ;)

[Phone Wind]

asacrj,

You may disagree with the statement, but it happens to be true as has already been stated by MP:

... the International Civil Aviation Organisation has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology.

Any members of Air Afrique now flying on international flights require to be certified as having command of English to level 4 or better.

[RSQ]

I think the rub here is that if everybody in the same airspace speaks and understands the same language, safety goes up a lot. How many of you have been inbound in IMC in the DRC with aircraft wizzing around and everybody speaking French?

Very bloody confusing if not scary. I like to build a mental picture of where everybody is in relation to me when I am in the hold or on the approach to a field, especially on the dark continent!

Seems to me a grasp of the language should be essential?

[Foxcotte]

Coleman, i cannot agree with you more.

As professional aviators (or even amateur pilots), we're supposed to have reached a certain level of education, professionalism, responsibility and the ability to make ourselves clearly understood all around the world. Our lives and those behind us, depend on it after all. Yes, slang is trendy, and yes, we're all in the abominable habit of abbreviating communication for mobile phones, but as writing is rapidly becoming a dying art, I think the least we can do is try and make an effort when going public with written comments.

Bring back grammar, bring back punctuation, and most of all bring back text we can read and understood. Hell, bring back Shakespeare and Dickens - they would be fantastic to hear over the frequencies!

ATC: Wherefore art thou Speedbird 321?
PILOT: What dulcit tone is that I hear as yonder sunrise breaks?
COPILOT: Methinks he doth protest too much...

It would be truly wonderful!

[dakotanorb]

Tower: N12345 are you Victor Mike Charlie?
N12345: No, we are Dave and Andy!

Fly save
Dakotanorb:ok:

[Bucket]

I can like to speak delicious English but wif a lekker accent so that I can like to understand the rednecks.

To fly or not to fly,
that is the question.
Weather (sic) 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the rants and jibes of outrageous foreigners...

You get the idea.

Speaking well with correct grammar, sentence structure and vocabulary seems to be the increasing preserve of a limited few. Yoof culture has hijacked our precious language. I try to take care in how I talk and communicate but since I speak with an accent that's been described as 'posh' (heaven knows how since I went to a state comprehensive and left with 5 O's), I often stay quiet. Have recieved far too much p**s taking because of it.

Aspiring to be the best you can is alright isn't it?

[Foxcotte]

Here's a thought... if one adopts trendy, fad ideas, takes shortcuts, makes unnecessary abbreviations and is generally sloppy in the way one talks and writes, is it fair to assume the same parameters and ethics apply all the way to how one flies as well? If one does not apply the rules of speech and grammar, does that mean one does not apply the rules of aerodynamics, airlaw and good airmanship. Or is that taking it too far?

I recently flew on a national carrier where the cabin crew were totally disinterested in their job, the flightcrew were so bored as to barely be able to make a coherent pa announcement, and generally the whole service reeked of apathy and lethargy. Shortly afterwards this carrier had a serious fatal crash. One assumes that apathy at ground level goes all the way to the top - and vice versa. Apathy at the top goes all the way down the ranks.

So in summary, if you cannot be bothered to talk or write properly, can you be bothered to fly properly? :confused::(:ugh:

[Pitch&Fan]

Coleman M,

This thread is long overdue. Well said that man!

I believe this sums it up perfectly (Pasted from Foxcotte's earlier posting):

Coleman, i cannot agree with you more.

As professional aviators (or even amateur pilots), we're supposed to have reached a certain level of education, professionalism, responsibility and the ability to make ourselves clearly understood all around the world. Our lives and those behind us, depend on it after all. Yes, slang is trendy, and yes, we're all in the abominable habit of abbreviating communication for mobile phones, but as writing is rapidly becoming a dying art, I think the least we can do is try and make an effort when going public with written comments.

Bring back grammar, bring back punctuation, and most of all bring back text we can read and understood. Hell, bring back Shakespeare and Dickens - they would be fantastic to hear over the frequencies!

ATC: Wherefore art thou Speedbird 321?
PILOT: What dulcit tone is that I hear as yonder sunrise breaks?
COPILOT: Methinks he doth protest too much...

It would be truly wonderful!

Spot on.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Wazzuuuuupppp, Homies!:}

Bring back grammar, bring back punctuation, and most of all bring back text we can read and understood.

Something about glass houses and the impropriety of flinging stones about springs to mind...:E

[Foxcotte]

Okay, can I get away with saying that it was a reading and spelling test to see if anyone was paying close attention?:D

No? Okay can I then blame an unfamiliar keyboard? Or an over hasty pressing of the submit key?

No? Okay, I will take due note of the report card saying "must do better and should apply oneself to the matter in hand" and go and practice taking better aim with my stones....

[Skyjuggler]

Foxcotte, I couldn't agree with you more about apathy towards writing and grammar spilling over into peoples professional attitude. I'd like to add a funny (although not really) story about an interview I recently conducted:

This young lady had actually included Cell-phone short-hand as one of her talents:eek:
At the end of her "Why I'd like to work for you" speel, she wrote: "Thanx"

Is the use of the "x" really saving you that much time?:ugh::ugh:

Bottom line, If you can't take the time to read and speak properly, how can you expect us to think you'll pay any more attention to the other things in life.

[Skyjuggler]

Sorry, having said that, I must also qualify by saying that my rant is only directed at those who are simply lazy (or trying to be cool:cool:).

[chileno 777]

Useless thread!:ugh:What it has to do with African Aviation anyway?
Why has not been moved to the Non-Airline forums or maybe to Misc.Forums?:confused:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

What? And miss the opportunity to wind you up?:}

[Foxcotte]

At the end of the day, African Aviation does have one of the worst safety records in the world, and it could be argued that language and understanding might be a small factor in some of the pointless, stupid actions that occur in the skies above us here. So I think talking (in good grammatical, punctuated English of course) about this subject is entirely valid.

Besides which, Africa is also a true melting-pot of languages; everything from English, Portuguese, French, Spanish, Bantu, Swahili, Maasai, Pokot, Luo, Luhya, Zulu, Xhosa, Arabic etcetera. So in conclusion, my friends, Romans and countrymen, I would say that the discussion about slang and proper language is probably more valid to be in the Africa Forum than some of the others.

Et tu Brutus?!!

[Muntu]

Hi SRT. It is like fishing with 160 lb breaking strain is it not? Chelano you are :mad:nal, but I do declare your command of the noble English language is profound.

Blue skies to you all.

[Coleman Myers]

The thread seems to have generated much interest and varied responses. A great deal of fair points have been raised.

Having been banned for a week I apologise for offending others and the moderator.My intention was neither racist nor unkind, just stating the facts as I, a second language speaker / writer, am seeing them.In this case the "pot" is very black along with the kettle.

Chileno, maybe it has'nt been moved because it relates directly to aviation safety ?.In our part of the world safety is a daily issue. I recall recently a B777 crew of a major African carrier repeatedly failing their type rating, sim and line checks, not for lack of skill, but purely because of their insufficient grasp of written and conversational comprehension of English. Your thoughts ?.

[unstable load]

I agree that this topic is critical to safety.

I have been the on-board engineer for a number of ferry flights between Cape Town and various destinations as far as Abidjan on the West Coast and Pemba on the East and my very basic Portuguese and French has been invaluable to the pilots who were busy eneough with the flying without trying to decode Portuguese/French or terribly spoken English.

Some of these pilots have been new to Africa, let alone ferry flying in Africa and they have been often at wits end trying to understand things. :ugh:

[BelArgUSA]

Yes, should you fly in Africa, knowledge of basics of French and Portuguese is definitely a recommendation, and be ready to understand some (quite) variable levels of English language.
xxx
The extent of the former British Empire nations is nearly equal to the nations which were "Colonies Françaises" and the Belgian territories of Congo, Rwanda and Burundi using French as well. Further, you will often overfly (or land) in Angola or Mozambique where Portuguese is used.
xxx
I often read the forums of pilots who are inquiring about education and training, about what is recommended in i.e. maths and physics... Honest, to be a pilot, a good scientific subjects background of secondary education level should be sufficient to pass the ATPL written exams. Why not consider the study of languages such as French, and Spanish/Portuguese. It would be invaluable for Africa... And should you be hired by an African airline or airplane operator, I would say, it is a must.
xxx
Two weeks of "total immersion" at a Berlitz language school (or equivalent) with French and or Spanish/Portuguese is definitely sufficient to handle these languages in the aviation environment. A "total immersion" program can be tailored to your needs, and have your language teacher telling you how to ask for wind direction, altitudes or levels, how to say visibility or ceiling. With "total immersion" it is often a one-to-one teacher/student, so it is up to you to specify your vocabulary needs.
xxx
Note: I said Spanish/Portuguese... Spanish is of almost no use in Africa but I recommend it to European and North American pilots, because of being of use in Central/South America... If you speak Spanish, you can understand a lot of Portuguese, and they can understand you. Fact is, in Angola and Mozambique, I noticed that they use a more "Brazilian" Portuguese vocabulary and accent. When I massacre Portuguese in Brazil, Angola and Mozambique, I make a mix with Spanish... I call it "Portuñol"...
xxx
Ppune benefit - your first lesson in French, Spanish and Portuguese.
Learn the numbers... in case of ATC confusion.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. 0 =
FRENCH - hun, deh, trwa, katreh, sink, sees, set, wheet, nof, zayro -
SPANISH - unoh, doss, tress, kwatro, sinko, sess, seeyeteh, otsho, nweveh, seroh -
PORTUGUESE - oom, doysh, tresh, kwatro, sinko, seysh, seteh, oytoh, nohveh, seroh -
xxx
Anecdote about Kinshasa...
I had noticed that the tower always gave the wind to be 250º/10 knots, when the wind is quite different... I inquired why. Apparently, tower controllers learn English communications in training, in Brussels, and did learn to say (in English) "wind iz two fife zeero at won zeero knots"... So, as they are good students, that is exactly what they will give you as wind, for their entire career. M'dio bwana...
xxx
Oh - I forgot - two PortuGEEZE - one PortuGOOSE...
:ok:
Happy contrails

[maxrated]

Please be advised that only ICAO signatory states are required to use English as an aviation language.

Even countries like Algeria which have adopted ICAO systems are not signatories to ICAO and are not therefore under any obligation to controll in English. ( Even though it is the Queens language ).

So next time one feels inclined to mouth off at a controller for not using English check your Jepp to see if you are in an ICAO country's airspace.

Most of West and Central Africa (also Madagascar)are affiliated to ASECNA, not ICAO so they are doing you a favour by speaking English to you.

I feel it is the height of arrogance to expect the rest of the world to speak English without us having to make any effort to accomodate other widley spoken international languages.

I have collegues who have flown in Francophone Africa for years who are still incapable of ordering a so much as a beer in a local language anywhere between Luanda and Algiers because " English is the International Aviation Language", so they think everyone else should speak it.

I agree with BelArgUSA's comments and I think that spending an afternoon learning to count to 10 in French and Portuguese will do more to improve air safety in africa than trying to change and alter the entire aviation culture of other people's countries.

Uma cerveja per favor amigo.
Un bier sil voux plez mon amis.
Min faartlahk ais wahid beer sadigi. (although not during Ramadan in daylight)

[cforty7]

I don't even want to get involved in a political thread like this one, but the origin of this thread got a smile to my face reminding me of an old joke:

How do you know someone is multi lingual? He's a black South African.
How do you know someone is bi-lingual? He's a white South African
and someone that only speaks one language? He's an english speaking, white South African.

This is meant as a joke only - don't take me seriously. (If it's true, it's your own fault):ok:

[Coleman Myers]

cforty7, as you come from a country that appears to have three national anthems in order to please everybody, I can understand your position :E

I suggest with immediate effect, that all air radiotelephony south of Cairo and north of Cape Town should be made first in Swahili, then in French and then for absolute compliance, in English :ok:

[Juliet Sierra Papa]

Is this significant?

Having read the above posts I decided to check this out by simple means. Try Wikipedia and enter " Air Traffic Controller " Second paragraph confirms my understanding on this topic.

JSP