Thread grammar
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Thread grammar
Could all who (just like me), practise English as a second language, please try to make some sense in your postings.
English is the international language of aviation. And until the forum swithces to Hausa,Fulani or Swahili, so too, is it the language of the threads !. Maybe a sub-section in local languages may become a reallity, as it is with European forums.
For now, each time we rant and rave about "racist whites, the evils of colonialism and why our airspaces are really very safe" in half intelligable babble, it just quantifies the generally held "dim view" of African aviation.I dont think anybody expects editorial brilliance, but a post should make basic sense (many don't).
Let's hold our heads up and make proper statements when representing our continent in dialogue with our global aviation counterparts.
English is the international language of aviation. And until the forum swithces to Hausa,Fulani or Swahili, so too, is it the language of the threads !. Maybe a sub-section in local languages may become a reallity, as it is with European forums.
For now, each time we rant and rave about "racist whites, the evils of colonialism and why our airspaces are really very safe" in half intelligable babble, it just quantifies the generally held "dim view" of African aviation.I dont think anybody expects editorial brilliance, but a post should make basic sense (many don't).
Let's hold our heads up and make proper statements when representing our continent in dialogue with our global aviation counterparts.
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No Tin Tin....it's not WTf...that's why Coleman Myers started the thread....isn't it about time? So be it.....!!!! You go Coleman.....it are not liking to be speaking wif a jean pant!!!!!
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english - second language of aviation?
I thought that english was the only language accepted in aviation. The main reasson why i'm responding to this thread is because Airlink is no longer my home and i wish to improve my comunication skills. So i welcome comments and severe critisism. Its the only way to grow
regards
nemesis mk1
regards
nemesis mk1
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Wrong, actually...
I know this news is surprising but it's so that English is just one of the languages used in aviation. Each country can use its national language too, with English usually available from ATC and from major airports.
Germany, for instance, has several different radio licences, one of which is for German-speaking pilots only. If you want traffic advisories at a small air strip then you can expect the radio traffic to be in German, when you will need a licence that says you can officially speak the language if you want to communicate. There is absolutely no requirement for them to use English and in fact if they don't have a licence for that then they are not allowed to.
So don't expect everyone everywhere to speak English; English might not be available and that is because it is NOT the "official language of aviation."
That said, yes, isn't it interesting how thuggish some folks seem to come across in their posts when obviously they think they are promoting or protecting their national interests and fighting perceived "racism" and "discrimination." It usually seems to come down to some version of "Whities go home!" written in txt spk or gibberish by someone wanting in emotional maturity and speaking for entire countries or even Africa or the Third World as a whole. Wasn't it Eldridge Cleaver who said that, "If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem,"?
Germany, for instance, has several different radio licences, one of which is for German-speaking pilots only. If you want traffic advisories at a small air strip then you can expect the radio traffic to be in German, when you will need a licence that says you can officially speak the language if you want to communicate. There is absolutely no requirement for them to use English and in fact if they don't have a licence for that then they are not allowed to.
So don't expect everyone everywhere to speak English; English might not be available and that is because it is NOT the "official language of aviation."
That said, yes, isn't it interesting how thuggish some folks seem to come across in their posts when obviously they think they are promoting or protecting their national interests and fighting perceived "racism" and "discrimination." It usually seems to come down to some version of "Whities go home!" written in txt spk or gibberish by someone wanting in emotional maturity and speaking for entire countries or even Africa or the Third World as a whole. Wasn't it Eldridge Cleaver who said that, "If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem,"?
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Chuks,
English may not be the official language of aviation, but the International Civil Aviation Organisation has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology. The regulations are contained in Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5.
English may not be the official language of aviation, but the International Civil Aviation Organisation has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology. The regulations are contained in Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5.
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While I agree with the topic of this thread, it is worth pointing out that for a lot of people in Africa, English may well be a second language. Having said that, it is well accepted that learning and becoming profficient in English is probably one of the biggest challenges a person can face, so let's cut the other less fortunate guys a bit of slack.
My pet peeve is on a sub-heading of this thread, which is people writing like they speak, ie- slang/patois whatever you want to call it, and doing so because they are simply too idle to apply themselves eneough to show a little respect to others whose English may not be great to start with. These poor souls suddenly find themselves drowning in what appears to be (and often is) gibberish thanks to an insensetive person trying to be amusing.
My pet peeve is on a sub-heading of this thread, which is people writing like they speak, ie- slang/patois whatever you want to call it, and doing so because they are simply too idle to apply themselves eneough to show a little respect to others whose English may not be great to start with. These poor souls suddenly find themselves drowning in what appears to be (and often is) gibberish thanks to an insensetive person trying to be amusing.
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Yes, but...
Don't be put out if you get other traffic talking in another language than English, is my point. Some guys take that personally, as if there is something wrong or illegal with using another language than English, when that is not the case.
Just for your own safety, to keep some SA (No, the other SA, Situational Awareness) it's a good idea to know some basic French when flying in North Africa, for instance.
That English is required, well, okay, but that ATC guy might not be real happy if you hit him with a fast blast of English just because you can, as if to prove a point. I have seen situations where doing that results in a looong silence until trying again nice and slow, at a pace a non-native speaker is comfortable with. "Being polite," I guess you could call that.
To that other dude: You wants to through me wif a stone? Is it cos' I is black?
Just for your own safety, to keep some SA (No, the other SA, Situational Awareness) it's a good idea to know some basic French when flying in North Africa, for instance.
That English is required, well, okay, but that ATC guy might not be real happy if you hit him with a fast blast of English just because you can, as if to prove a point. I have seen situations where doing that results in a looong silence until trying again nice and slow, at a pace a non-native speaker is comfortable with. "Being polite," I guess you could call that.
To that other dude: You wants to through me wif a stone? Is it cos' I is black?
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Sorry new to this forum.
I'm a little confused about this tread. Are you suggesting that to work in aviation you have to speak perfect english.
For the quote, who ever wrote it must have been very made at something. He had some good point however.
I'm a little confused about this tread. Are you suggesting that to work in aviation you have to speak perfect english.
For the quote, who ever wrote it must have been very made at something. He had some good point however.
Last edited by asacrj; 23rd Aug 2008 at 09:56.
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Nobody's perfect...
I take the point to be that we should try here to write in correct English, given that English is the language in use. Txt spk, gross errors in speeling and grammar ("it's" when "its" is meant and the "greengrocer's apostrophe" are two that really stick out)... you see folks really go off the rails when the rule of thumb seems to be, "The angrier the poster the worse the quality of the English."
We all make mistakes but some people just seem to have a simple mind-set that English is to be treated as a joke; any old rubbish should do. Guess what happens when you hand in a CV written with obvious mistakes or find yourself unable to speak "propah" when being interviewed?
First and foremost, having good (not perfect) English is a safety issue for any pilot. Next it is a way to find work. Finally it is a way to enhance yourself. If you want to just speak like a ghetto thug then a career as a DJ might be okay, but not one as a professional pilot. "Dis be de Captain talking at you. Players and bitches, one of de engines be illing but, 'Chill.' We be cool wid dat. Yo!"
Aviation is necessarily international by its very nature and it's up to us to keep some level of tolerance going even when we feel ourselves put under pressure. Yes, Africa has lots, even too many perhaps, foreigners taking work that might or should go to locals. That is not really grounds to spit the dummy, is it? If you stop and have a think about it you can usually see some failing in whatever nation needs to bring skilled workers in since years to keep this or that industry going. To just lash out at the foreign workers is being a bit obtuse and then to do that using very poor English really just proves a point, I fear.
It isn't a race-based issue at all. Here in lily-white Germany we have little pockets of melanin-deprived neo-Nazi thugs following the very same agenda, "Jobs for locals, foreigners out," that one can see put forth here by some random Africans. It has to do with having the proper skills set to do a job; that goes back to the government providing opportunities to learn and individuals taking those opportunities. If you snooze, you lose!
We all make mistakes but some people just seem to have a simple mind-set that English is to be treated as a joke; any old rubbish should do. Guess what happens when you hand in a CV written with obvious mistakes or find yourself unable to speak "propah" when being interviewed?
First and foremost, having good (not perfect) English is a safety issue for any pilot. Next it is a way to find work. Finally it is a way to enhance yourself. If you want to just speak like a ghetto thug then a career as a DJ might be okay, but not one as a professional pilot. "Dis be de Captain talking at you. Players and bitches, one of de engines be illing but, 'Chill.' We be cool wid dat. Yo!"
Aviation is necessarily international by its very nature and it's up to us to keep some level of tolerance going even when we feel ourselves put under pressure. Yes, Africa has lots, even too many perhaps, foreigners taking work that might or should go to locals. That is not really grounds to spit the dummy, is it? If you stop and have a think about it you can usually see some failing in whatever nation needs to bring skilled workers in since years to keep this or that industry going. To just lash out at the foreign workers is being a bit obtuse and then to do that using very poor English really just proves a point, I fear.
It isn't a race-based issue at all. Here in lily-white Germany we have little pockets of melanin-deprived neo-Nazi thugs following the very same agenda, "Jobs for locals, foreigners out," that one can see put forth here by some random Africans. It has to do with having the proper skills set to do a job; that goes back to the government providing opportunities to learn and individuals taking those opportunities. If you snooze, you lose!
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English is the languish
Sorry to tell. but you can not do an IFR flight in Germany on a German license if you do not have a BZF 1.
A BZF 1 is a radio license that certifies you that you are proficient in English radio communication.
You ere also not allowed to fly outside of German speaking territory if you do not have this type of radio license.
Further, there are a lot of company's that build aircraft in country's were English is not the native languish. There is Brasilia, Bombardier and Airbus Industry. All of them supply there aircraft manuals and updates in English. They offer other languishes but always state that the valid version is only the English version and English is the master document.
I´m German and had to learn English to work in civil aviation and I believe that if you want to have a chance to have a career in aviation you will have to learn English!
Try the postal service if you are french.
Fly save
dakotanorb
A BZF 1 is a radio license that certifies you that you are proficient in English radio communication.
You ere also not allowed to fly outside of German speaking territory if you do not have this type of radio license.
Further, there are a lot of company's that build aircraft in country's were English is not the native languish. There is Brasilia, Bombardier and Airbus Industry. All of them supply there aircraft manuals and updates in English. They offer other languishes but always state that the valid version is only the English version and English is the master document.
I´m German and had to learn English to work in civil aviation and I believe that if you want to have a chance to have a career in aviation you will have to learn English!
Try the postal service if you are french.
Fly save
dakotanorb
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Germany...
... make that Greater Germany, I guess.
You have three different radio licences of which I held one and now hold another:
There is a German-only radio licence, the "Restricted" one.
There is a German and English radio licence, the "General" one.
There is a "General" one that is restricted to the use of English only, so a restricted, unrestricted licence. I had one of those and got the restriction lifted by doing a rather thorough radio test in the German language. Even though my German can be fairly rubbish I have a paper with an official stamp that says I can so speak German! Hah!
You have three different radio licences of which I held one and now hold another:
There is a German-only radio licence, the "Restricted" one.
There is a German and English radio licence, the "General" one.
There is a "General" one that is restricted to the use of English only, so a restricted, unrestricted licence. I had one of those and got the restriction lifted by doing a rather thorough radio test in the German language. Even though my German can be fairly rubbish I have a paper with an official stamp that says I can so speak German! Hah!
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First and foremost, having good (not perfect) English is a safety issue for any pilot. Next it is a way to find work. Finally it is a way to enhance yourself
I know speaking english is required to operate an airplane for the most part but I dont think that it is a way to enhance yourself. It is easy said and done for you english seaking fellas. As for as non english speaker at least we are trying so maybe we should get a break
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asacrj,
You may disagree with the statement, but it happens to be true as has already been stated by MP:
Any members of Air Afrique now flying on international flights require to be certified as having command of English to level 4 or better.
You may disagree with the statement, but it happens to be true as has already been stated by MP:
... the International Civil Aviation Organisation has decreed that from 1 January 2008 all Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Crew Members engaged in or in contact with international flights must be proficient in the English language as a general spoken medium and not simply have a proficiency in standard ICAO Radio Telephony Phraseology.
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English as she is spoke....
I think the rub here is that if everybody in the same airspace speaks and understands the same language, safety goes up a lot. How many of you have been inbound in IMC in the DRC with aircraft wizzing around and everybody speaking French?
Very bloody confusing if not scary. I like to build a mental picture of where everybody is in relation to me when I am in the hold or on the approach to a field, especially on the dark continent!
Seems to me a grasp of the language should be essential?
Very bloody confusing if not scary. I like to build a mental picture of where everybody is in relation to me when I am in the hold or on the approach to a field, especially on the dark continent!
Seems to me a grasp of the language should be essential?
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Language rules!
Coleman, i cannot agree with you more.
As professional aviators (or even amateur pilots), we're supposed to have reached a certain level of education, professionalism, responsibility and the ability to make ourselves clearly understood all around the world. Our lives and those behind us, depend on it after all. Yes, slang is trendy, and yes, we're all in the abominable habit of abbreviating communication for mobile phones, but as writing is rapidly becoming a dying art, I think the least we can do is try and make an effort when going public with written comments.
Bring back grammar, bring back punctuation, and most of all bring back text we can read and understood. Hell, bring back Shakespeare and Dickens - they would be fantastic to hear over the frequencies!
ATC: Wherefore art thou Speedbird 321?
PILOT: What dulcit tone is that I hear as yonder sunrise breaks?
COPILOT: Methinks he doth protest too much...
It would be truly wonderful!
As professional aviators (or even amateur pilots), we're supposed to have reached a certain level of education, professionalism, responsibility and the ability to make ourselves clearly understood all around the world. Our lives and those behind us, depend on it after all. Yes, slang is trendy, and yes, we're all in the abominable habit of abbreviating communication for mobile phones, but as writing is rapidly becoming a dying art, I think the least we can do is try and make an effort when going public with written comments.
Bring back grammar, bring back punctuation, and most of all bring back text we can read and understood. Hell, bring back Shakespeare and Dickens - they would be fantastic to hear over the frequencies!
ATC: Wherefore art thou Speedbird 321?
PILOT: What dulcit tone is that I hear as yonder sunrise breaks?
COPILOT: Methinks he doth protest too much...
It would be truly wonderful!
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I can like to speak delicious English but wif a lekker accent so that I can like to understand the rednecks.
To fly or not to fly,
that is the question.
Weather (sic) 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the rants and jibes of outrageous foreigners...
You get the idea.
Speaking well with correct grammar, sentence structure and vocabulary seems to be the increasing preserve of a limited few. Yoof culture has hijacked our precious language. I try to take care in how I talk and communicate but since I speak with an accent that's been described as 'posh' (heaven knows how since I went to a state comprehensive and left with 5 O's), I often stay quiet. Have recieved far too much p**s taking because of it.
Aspiring to be the best you can is alright isn't it?
To fly or not to fly,
that is the question.
Weather (sic) 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the rants and jibes of outrageous foreigners...
You get the idea.
Speaking well with correct grammar, sentence structure and vocabulary seems to be the increasing preserve of a limited few. Yoof culture has hijacked our precious language. I try to take care in how I talk and communicate but since I speak with an accent that's been described as 'posh' (heaven knows how since I went to a state comprehensive and left with 5 O's), I often stay quiet. Have recieved far too much p**s taking because of it.
Aspiring to be the best you can is alright isn't it?