Merged: PNG CAA Air Safety: ABC Foreign Correspondent

[Duck Pilot]

For those interested, check Foreign Correspondent out next Tuesday night.

ABC link Foreign Correspondent (http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/default.htm)

[balus]

"An Australian based aviation safety auditor says conditions in PNG are ripe for an accident like that of the 2007 Garuda airline crash at Indonesia’s Yogyakarta airport."

Was the airport the major fault here? I seem to recall something about a pilot who ignored the fact that his approach had turned to excrement!

The only time that Air Nogat has been even close to this sort of incident was P2-ANB in Madang a few years back.

Yes the infrastructure and the political side of aviation in PNG sucks but the crew are usually top notch, they have to be to survive!

[UFLA]

I had better put this one back at the top for all us wantoks as it is on TONIGHT.

2130 hrs on ABC.

[ratso]

This may have already been put on this forum...sorry if it has


Flying in PNG is one of the big topics tonight

[Capt Fathom]

Flying in PNG is one of the big topics tonight

Actually, I think it's more about crashing!

[Torres]

Great program. Very well reported. :ok:

I lift my hat to Sid O'Toole. Sid always was a great, honest aircraft engineer!!

Does he frequent this forum?

[ratso]

After watching it .......I say.. " SO WHATS NEW IN THAT PLACE"

[shnev]

... took great interest in watching the ABC report tonight on New Guinea and the issues brought up.

My experience in PNG was not too extensive. Enough to run into Sidney when we frequented the aero club and even then he expressed his concerns on the aviation investigation (or lack of) situation.

i flew with many ex-airlink pilots who knew the captain of the bandit that went down in more recent times. people regarded him very highly as a great pilot and it's incredibly sad they didn't investigate the accident properly. They recorded over the ATC tapes (containing the mayday call) 4 days after!

The thing which makes my toes prick up is the idea of having one (AUS AID DONATED) fire truck in Mt Hagen when a multiple number of jets and turboprop passenger aircraft operate in there (and other ports with NO emergency services) at any one time. we frequently caught the F100 from Mt hagen to Pt Moresby. Being from Australia it's easy to have the (wrong!) idea in your head that all these things are taken care of.. emergency services et al

As Sid pointed out... on the day a jet goes down, try picturing some 100 people escaping a burning F100 in mount Hagen and 5 PNG nationals attempting to put the fire out (using a truck that probably hadn't been checked to have any water in it in the first place....)

... thought it'd be a point to make... to send a message to Sidney (+co) saying keep up the good work and well done for sticking it out up there this long, in what would seem a battle of pushing the proverbial $h!t3 uphill

shnev

[INTERESTED BYSTANDER]

I stand to be corrected but I think it was stated 4 fire fighters in total working 2 12 hour shifts. I shudder to think does that mean 2 staff on each 12 hour shift!!!!!!!!! That is the way it sounded to me.
Heart felt condolences to the families involved and congratulations to Sid O'Toole for having the courage to be involved.

[chimbu warrior]

Shnev, it may surprise you to learn that RPT jets operate to many airfields in Australia where there is no RFF whatsoever. Yes I agree that Hagen needs a better RFF capability, but at least it has somehing.

[Waghi Warrior]

I don't think the fire truck up at Hagen has any fire retardant either. The last aircraft that caught on fire up there was George Leahy's Cessna 207 when the NLG failed, and I believe some MAF people put that one out, whilst the RFF watched !

I have heard that ICAO are about to do an audit on the PNG CAA, no doubt they will be impressed with the situation :ugh:

[capt.cynical]

:eek:
Blame Gough Whitlam,he gave them "Independance" about 100 years too early.:}

[John Citizen]

Don't blame Gough Whitlam, just blame labor !!

This same tool / political party also gave land rights to the indigenous of Australia and look at all the problems that has caused.

If you want to F#$K something up (be it your own country or another one), just vote labor.

[Ricky Bobby]

Just watched the show on Australia Network, good on ya Sid.

Unfortunately its PNG so nothing will change, it will only get worse :sad:

[OZBUSDRIVER]

What a cluster:mad:k. $10,000 Ransom to investigate a crash? Must be a version of payback:confused:

That Sid, he deserves to be knighted to put up with that! Threatened by armed bandits just to do his job. National Geo must love the place. One step out of Moresby and you are back in the ..well armed...stone age!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Which airlink Bandit crash are we talking about..the one on the east side of Goroka or the one near Kandrian?

[Ricky Bobby]

Kandrian Chimbu.

[Centaurus]

As we have come to expect in these type of tragedies, the TV journalist and cameras focussed inordinately on the poor mother's tears. But it is always sad to hear parents think their son was the perfect pilot and could do no wrong. That said, there was no mention whatsoever in the programme of the circumstances of the accident. As usual one hears very little of PNG accidents in the Australian media. What were the circumstances of this specific accident; how many lost their lives; and did the Mayday calls contain specific info on the problem with the aircraft?

[dreamjob]

Is there an online version of the doco? Cheers.

[FlexibleResponse]

That said, there was no mention whatsoever in the programme of the circumstances of the accident.

Alas! therein lies the essence of the problem that the report raised...

There is apparently NO Regulatory Authority Accident Investigation that is worth a **** in New Guinea...period.

If they fail the upcoming audit, there may soon be no P2 registered aircraft able to operate legally outside the New Guinea FIR.

[greenslopes]

Centaurus you naive git.
It could just be that the pilot was indeed a no fault victim of circumstances beyond his control.
If you want to become a little more worldly and a little less ignorant have a look at HFACS(human factors analysis and classification system) and you will understand that most incidents/accidents are more than they first appear.
If you watched the program(and paid attention) you would have picked up answers to your inane questions.
If you have trouble with hfacs basically it is an extension of James Reason's Swiss cheese model(1990).
If you don't know the answer do some learning!

[Pinky the pilot]

What a clusterk. $10,000 Ransom to investigate a crash? Must be a version of payback

AY once told me that after my old boss at Simbu had crashed the local villagers had removed the engine from the wreckage and taken it to their village, demanding K10,000 compensation before they would hand it over to the Investigation team.:mad:

Apparently though, it was retrieved by a bunch of PNG Constabulary who went to the village and said the local equivalent of
''Just hand over the engine boys, and no-one will get hurt!'':E:uhoh:

Should be more of that sort of thing.......but given the quality of the Constabulary these days..:hmm:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Greenslopes I know for a fact that Centaurus has been there and done that more than most and I detected nothing in his post that earned your response.

Yes it is possible that the crash was as you suggest, just extremely unlikely.

Whatever the cause of that accident I would suggest out brave accident investigator was on an aeroplane home straight after the airing of the program.

Doesn't matter that he is 100% correct, and he most assuredly is, he will be terminated by now and most unlikely to ever set foot in PNG again, certainly not with a work permit.

That is just the way it is.

It won't matter a stuff what the audit comes up with PX will not be shut down and domestically nothing will change post audit.

That, too, is just the way it is.

Pinky I bet they banged a few heads together, set fire to a couple of huts, and THEN said "ol samting bilong balus i stap we"?

[Pinky the pilot]

I bet they banged a few heads together, set fire to a couple of huts, and THEN said "ol samting bilong balus i stap we"?

Er, from memory I think AY sort of hinted that something like that may have occurred.:ooh::E

[greenslopes]

Chimbu,
My response wasn't trying to discredit Cent just point out that very rarely is an acident solely the cause of the Pilot. Look at hfacs and what it encompasses and you will see the latent and active failures leading to an accident. What oversight was providedby management, what doctrines and policies filtered down from the Owner of Airlink to the line pilots, what training and checking occured, was there a fatigue management program in place, how was maintenance etc etc etc(I think we know the answer to many of these Q's).
Yes CC I am a Wantok I flew in png for only four years and was based in Mendi, I shared a beer with you and Drew in Kavieng so I do know the environment and am not speaking out my rrrrsss.

[Blip]

Is there an online version of the doco? Cheers.

There will be. It just takes them a couple of days to get the video link up and running. In the mean time they have only an episode intro in text form.

All the prior episodes have a video replay. You can find them here...

Archive - Foreign Correspondent (http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/2008/foreign2008.htm)

[Waghi Warrior]

Flexible Response,
You have hit the nail on the head. I hear CASA are looking very closely at all this. CASA has considered a ban on all PNG registered aircraft in the Australian Airspace in the past.

In regard to Patrick's accident at Kandrian,no one will never know the real cause of the accident now,but from what I know it was a suspected engine failure at night/dawn,and I'm pritty sure they would have been overloaded with papers,although I maybe wrong. As anyone who has operated in PNG especially in GA would know,overloads were once the norm especially with ops managers like Birrel and the like,overloading has been going on for years and I'm sure it still does with some operators,especially when there is little or no policing done by the PNG CAA.

I believe the real worry is that if the Bandierante did infact have an engine failure or even some kind of airframe failure,no one will ever know the cause. This worries people like Sid,Bandierante operators and other regulators around the world,as the aircraft concerned may have had a problem/fault that has never occured in the past. For Sid O'Toole's department not to have any funding available to investigate accidents and incidents is a total disgrace, and for Don Polye to admit it on international television,just goes to show what condition some of the Government Departments are in.

I'm sure Sid's job is on the line now,although I like to think that if he was fired there will be some form of payback on PNG from ICAO and CASA. Who else in their right mind would take on a position and then have there hands tied. I somehow really doubt there would be a PNG National who could take on the roll,and be able to stick his/her neck out,although I stand to be corrected as I may be wrong.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I am not saying your not correct in mentioning potential human factors aspects of the crash I merely suggested calling him 'a naive git' might be a long bow to draw:ok:

Too I think that 'human factors' gets overplayed. It almost seems like a way of deflecting responsibility sometimes.

Centaurus is completely right when he suggests (grieving) parents are rarely emotionally equipped to accept the fact that their pride and joy might not have been the sharpest tool in the shed preferring to hold on to the belief he was the innocent victim of a series of other people's errors, or of circumstances beyond his control.

Given the state of things in PNG we will never know what happened at Kandrian but if it was a case of the crew being (relatively) innocent victims of circumstances beyond their control it is the only Bandit crash in PNG aviation history that falls into that category.

[Torres]

Chuck.

Was there ever a definitive cause found for the Bandit lost off Hoskins, not far away from Kandrian, maybe 20 plus years ago? I had a feeling the water was too deep and a complete investigation was not possible?

I know there was never a cause found for the loss of the Baron off Milne Bay in the '70's, flown John Fox.

If Sid got his marching orders, PNG will be that much poorer! He was a good man and a good engineer.

[greenslopes]

Yes human factors is a lot more encompasasing than most people realise.
HFACS used as an investigative tool is a very comprehensive method of analysis. Basically the main groups are: Organizational Influence, Unsafe Supervision,Preconditions of unsafe acts and unsafe acts of operators.
Traditionaly us pilots have focused on the unsafe acts of operators and this too is where most investigators placed their emphasis as all they really wanted was to find the pilot at fault( poor ole pilot was usually dead and unable to say otherwise) as they could close the case and move on.
Most modern(and certainly those conducted by ATSB) do not determine where the blame lies, they are more focused on revealling the breaks in the defensive mechanism's so that operators can put preventative measures in place and halt a reoccurance.
Cutting to the chase the pilot is just the last hole in the cheese not the only hole in the cheese!

And yes I shouldn't have called anyone a naive Git..........please accept my apologies.

[Ricky Bobby]

Today's National, the pollies doing what they do best.

Nation | The National Newspaper (http://www.thenational.com.pg/082108/nation1.php)

[Chimbu chuckles]

Torres correct me if my memory is failing but were there not a few survivors from the Hoskins bandit that painted a picture, essentially, of zero horizon/heavy rain and 'controlled flight into the water'? Certainly the word around the crewroom was along those lines.

Yes the water there is many thousands of feet deep so there was never going to be a recovery of the aircraft and a detailed investigation.

I logged a few 1000 hours in Bandits in PNG including in the actual aircraft in question in the ABC report and worked for Airlink in Rabaul post Talair. I am very familiar with the area around Kandrian. Yes we used to fly the Bandits 'heavy' sometimes but they were certified to a higher MTOW in other countries anyway so I doubt we flew them beyond their design limits all that often. I know Col Bubner well and I have a difficult time believing his attitude to maintenance/training etc in Airlink was that much different at the time of this accident to that which prevailed when I was working for him. I would go as far as to say you couldn't ask for better as a pilot.

The Bandit is a powerful aircraft and even if they departed NZ/MD or where ever a few 100kgs over by the time they arrived in the vicinity of Kandrian they would no longer be over MTOW and it would take more than an engine failure to bring the aircraft down.

If they had a fire, either in the engine or cabin, they couldn't put out you would think it would be obvious even in a cursory inspection of the wreckage or they would have mentioned it over the radio...there was apparently a mayday call?

When you ponder the things that might cause an aircraft like a Bandit to crash after being in flight for an extended period of time the list of likely causes is not a long one. A single engine failure, unless grossly mismanaged, is just not going to do it.

Sadly it has been many, MANY decades since anyone has discovered a completely new and innovative way to crash an aeroplane.

[Tee Emm]

Centaurus you naive git.

Now that is what I call an educated reply...

[Torres]

Chuck. Too long ago to remember but I thought the Bandit disappeared off Hoskins without trace and all lost. I vaguely recall it was really crap WX and the Bandit was holding for an F28 to land, which itself overran the strip. I think the final assumption was the aircraft descended into the sea in an attempt to get visual.

Someone mentioned aircraft overloading by operations controllers. As you know two in particular were notorious, one of which went to Col's organisation....

The Bandit is a great aircraft and would have been much improved with -42 engines, however I understand the -42 was not designated a "commercial" engine by the manufacturer. The Bandit with higher gross weight was a military maritime patrol variant which had wing tip tanks.

[troppo]

I think you will find that the increased/higher gross weight came under SFAR 41A and applied to civilian models/operations.
"In addition, for those aircraft which have been approved for operation at increased weights permitted by
SFAR 41A, a placard must be installed in the cockpit, in clear view of the pilot, which reads as follows:
"THIS AIRPLANE IS APPROVED IN ACCORDANCE WITH SFAR 41A FOR MAXIMUM
TAKEOFF WEIGHT OF 13,007 LBS. AND MAXIMUM LANDING WEIGHT OF 12,566 LBS."

[Torres]

Troppo is correct, I'd forgotten the SFAR41 aircraft. The military variant I was thinking of was closer to 14,000 pounds TO weight for maritime patrol.

The SFAR41 variant added 500 pounds to the max TO weight but I seem to recall it involved expensive mods to higher certification standards (engine cowlings and other mods???), mandated two crew and as a result the extra payload was negated by extra weight and cost?

The Bandits (along with the Twin Otters) certainly "made" Talair.

[Animalclub]

The Bandit off Hoskins did have survivors... all from the one family. Husband, wife and child I believe.

[troppo]

Catching a lift in a bandit in PNG I commented to the PIC that we feel 'pretty heavy'. 'Yeah it's ok they're certified by the FAA to carry a bit more so we should be right.' :suspect:
Steep learning curve there... :}

[nick2007]

The higher MTOW Bandit has modified MLG shock absorbers, in addition to other various mods.

When did this crash (the one in the doco) occur? I missed that bit.

[Mach E Avelli]

From the doco synopsis : "The announcement comes just weeks before the International Civil Aviation Organisation, or ICAO, arrives in PNG to conduct an audit of air safety. ICAO requires that air crashes be investigated and has been known to take strong disciplinary action against countries that don’t meet its standards".

If ICAO do a proper job, it won't only be the lack of accident investigation that will fail PNG CAA. The auditors should find plenty of other areas of incompetence and insufficient, unqualified manpower within the regulatory authority. An on-going problem is that CAA simply can not attract aviation professionals with any depth of knowledge. They don't pay nearly enough, and don't allow tour arrangements, so they have a very limited choice when they attempt to recruit. They have done NOTHING to address problems that have been found on previous audits.

PNG CAA is about on par with Sierra Leone. The only thing that keeps aviation going up there is a small core group of very capable pilots and engineers, for which travellers in that area should be grateful. PNG's safety record is actually far better than it deserves to be.

[chimbu warrior]

Torres, it was RDM as I recall, flown by Keith Hunt. A few survivors as above.

Definitely weather-related.

[Nuthinondaclock]

If you click on the following link you can watch the program online from the ABC. Just scroll down and select Foreign Correspondent for the 19th August. (Note: You need reasonably good bandwidth but most here probably have no problems with that.:ok:)

ABC Television (http://www.abc.net.au/iview/)

[fugitive]

Sid O`Toole was grilled by the hypocrites from Dept of Transport and the CAA,the very people who are responsible for the current mess.
They will no doubt cancel his visa and sack him as this is their answer to everything .

Mr Kintau says that they will pass the IACO audit.If this happens,then ICAO personnel should be audited and their qualifications checked.

Neither the CAA or the Dept of Transport are functional and may as well shut shop;pardon,they already have.

There are no qualified inspectors in the CAA,by their own requirements anyway and they carry out no checking of any companies operating in PNG.
The people they have are incapable of doing the duties required of them, as the hold no licences and no endorsements on aircraft operating in PNG.

With respect to Patrick from Airlink,what was he doing flying at night? I thought night flying was prohibited, for the very reason he crashed,nowhere to go in an emergency.

There are virtually no serviceable navaids in the country,there are no RFF services anywhere,unreliable weather forcasts and sub standard airports that fail to meet any minimum standards as required by ICAO.

The CAA is an impediment to safety in PNG and until they employ properly qualified people with experience in the country,we will continue to see more of the above.Dept of Transport is the same

I think Sid was wasting his breath,because you can the response as written on the front page of the Nation newspaper.
Kintau and Co says they follow the NZ rules and will no doubt pass the ICAO inspection.
I dont think Joe even knows what is going on in his own department,so blame Sid ,instead of kicking a bit of backside down at 7 mile.

Good luck Sid,but nothing changes except to get worse.

[Ricky Bobby]

what was he doing flying at night?


IFR flight.

[fugitive]

What is the requirement for IFR flight. Do you understand the meaning of suitable airports;obviously not.

There are none in PNG at night,except for Port Moresby.

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

It (Airlink E110) was an IFR night freight run with enough fuel to hold until first light (to land elsewhere) if unable to return to Port Moresby at night.

[fugitive]

I dont wish to labor the point,but once you cross the ranges you do not have the performance to get back to Port Moresby.
Depending on the type,you must be within 60 minutes of an adequate airport,single engine,still air.
The airport must be adequate and suitable for time of landing.In the Airlink case,there were no available airports.
POM was the only suitable airport,but not available due to performance restrictions.

Holding is not an option.When you depart,the alternate must be available,in this case it wasn`t due to first light at suitable airports
Not only this,but in the event of a fire,then you need to put down where and when you can.
Should he been able to land by first light ,then yes,but this wasn`t the case and according to the reports,if they are correct,he had to land and holding wasn`t an option.

I am not trying to start an argument on this,but at the end of the day,if you have an emergency irrespective of the Reg`s,you must have an option.Maybe Patrick didn`t,but we will nnever know.

[firegrass]

Good point fugitive. Until recently it was not uncommon for the farmer fleet captain of a major airline there, to insist that it was ok to hold at night till the weather cleared at a very remote small island in a Dash8. "you can hold for two hours, you've got the fuel, it'll clear." Despite a legal requirement for an alternate.
When major companies like this are seen to behave this way, what chance does a poor little GA bloke like Patrick have to stand up against his shonky little company? Particularly when pilots cannot get support from their follow workers. I guess we know the answer now......

Thanks for having the moxie to do what others wouldn't Sid. http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif

And just remember fella's, "the tractor doesn't know you're sick!"

[Waghi Warrior]

What about Nadzab being an suitable night alternate,no performance problems in between Kandrian and Nadzab last time I checked.

Kunaye at night in a Dash 8 in ****ty WX ? Well this topic has been beaten to death by many especially on line checks with the checkie concerned.

Is Sid O'Toole still in country or has he been deported ?

[fugitive]

I think you are right,This subject has been beaten to death,but you should check your requirements for an alternate and Nadzab doesn`t meet the criteria.
It is of course,somewhere you would head for,but is not a legal alternate .
The problem here,is where do you draw the line and you only find out when there is an accident.
There appears to be little understanding of regulations.I thought that would be a requirement of a professional pilot.

[AQIS Boigu]

chimbu warrier...agreed...how about we consider RFF in remote areas in Oz first before we start bitching about the Mt Hagen RFF... how long do you think it will take for the fire truck from Wasaga (Horn Island village) to arrive if a fully loaded Q400 crashes on HID's RWY 08!!!

[kestrel539]

Post Courier Fri 12th
"Air crash commission set up

AN independent body has been set up to probe aircraft accidents and crashes and recommend improvements on air safety.
Transport Civil Aviation and Works Minister Don Polye announced yesterday the establishment of the body as the Accident Investigation Commission (AIC).
He said the commission would investigate aircraft accidents and make recommendations to improve air safety.
The commission has been established in compliance with the Civil Aviation Act 2000 and International Civil Aviation Convention Annex (13) which obligates ICAO member states to have an impartial and totally independent body to investigate aircraft accidents and incidents.
According to the yearly aircraft accident statistics provided by investigators from the Department of Transport, a total of 44 aircraft accidents occurred since the year 2000.
Mr Polye said there were 16 pending aircraft accidents that the commission would need to look into, starting in the first quarter of next year. The three-man commission is made up of chairman Paulus Dowa, Minson Peni, one of PNG’s pioneer pilots, who is deputy chairman and Nahau Rooney, a former minister of Civil Aviation.
“I have every confidence in their appointments and undertake to work closely with them to ensure that the AIC performs its management roles to the fullest extent,” Mr Polye said.
The commission will have a budget of K4.16 million set aside in the 2009 budget.
Mr Polye said the AIC should be fully operational by the first quarter of next year.
An interim chief executive officer for the commission will also be decided soon.
“The appointment is necessary to progress the transition of the current investigation unit currently under the Department of Transport into the commission.
“When the AIC is fully operational the commissioners will deal with all outstanding air accident reports and recommend their release through my office,” Mr Polye said."

[sid Otoole]

Hi

Ijust registered with pprune. In regard to the title, I would like to thank all those who contributed to this site with messages of support.

My neck was put on the line but it was worth it in the longrun despite nothing changing much. typical of PNG all political talk talk and no action

thanks to all Sid Otoole

air safety investigation PNG

[tipsy2]

Inspite of the accuracy and validity of what was raised in "Foreign Correspondent", PNG lacks the political ability and will to address all the county's deficiencies.

Aviation is just one of the numerous competing priorities this stuningly beautiful country needs to address.

Education, Health, Security the list is endless, mind you fix the graft and corruption within the political and public service areas and you might just have a chance of seeing the "Land of the Unexpected" raise itself to the level of at least a 3rd world country.

tipsy:ugh:

[sid Otoole]

Yes ya. absolutely right. Nothing happens unless there is the obligatory payola. em nau

Sid Otoole

[chimbu warrior]

Aviation is just one of the numerous competing priorities this stuningly beautiful country needs to address.

Education, Health, Security the list is endless

Tipsy you are 110% correct.

PNG is paradise spoiled by greed and corruption. Few countries have the potential that PNG does, but effective and transparent leadership is sadly lacking. Unless, and until, leadership is shown, the place is doomed.

[Carrier]

Was the situation like this before independence was granted?

[Sharpie]

No.

The country had very good infrastructure, good rural health care, education and governance. As many have stated, Whitlam was ten years early in his thinking, maybe pushed on by UN trends.

[Wiley]

As someone who lived there for short periods before, during and after independence, I'd have to agree that the Australian colonial yoke, whilst obviously not perfect, was a pretty light one for most local people and for all its faults, provided a far better life for all Papua New Guineans (with the possible exception for today's small elite who find themselves at the top of the fast-withering tree and the most successfu raskols - who may be one in the same people) than they enjoy today.

I can only join others in saying it is the most magnificent country, with the best people one could hope to meet. But sadly, as politically incorrect as it might be to say it, despite very generous, (most would say extraordinarily generous) Australian assistance since independence, the people now running the country have proven themsleves to have been not ready to rule.

Thanks in part to all those Australian dollars, it has taken a few more years to get there than it did most post-independence African countries, but PNG is today fast descending into what has become the standard downhill road for most independent African countries and faces the real risk of disintegration into many disparate semi-independant mini (failed) states under the guise of Federalism.

I don't know if Australia can afford to have a half dozen failed states on its doorstep given the way Al Qaeda and similar organisations have taken advantage of similar situations elsewhere in the world. Unfortunately, with the current financial crisis beginning to bite, I don't know whether Australia will be able to afford (in monetary terms) to do anything about it, particularly as it lacks the necessary appropriate military hardware (and manpower) to mount an effective force in the area.

See the "The AFD Buys Another Lemon" thread on the Militay page to get an idea of what I'm on about with that comment.

[Torres]

Apinun Sid! Long taim mi no lukim yu!!! :ok: :ok:

I saw your brief moment of TV fame. Glad someone had the guts to stand up and be counted. :ok:

Sharpie, Whitlam was not ahead of his time, he was just another non understandling meddler in the history of PNG. Long may we celebrate Armistice Day, 1975.

The PNG people should have been granted the right of Self Determination. Instead, Independence was forced on the country by a rabid UN delegation and a compliant Australian Government, well ahead of it's time.

What you see now in PNG, is the product of those attrocious decisions almost forty years ago.

[sid Otoole]

absolutely correct

Sid O'T

[sid Otoole]

Yep''

20 minutes of being infamous is the way i would put it. the following day the executive committee of the DOT summonsed me and every body else to appear in the secretarys office complete with 3 lawyers.

The grilling lasted for 3 hours but I took notes and after being given the chance to tok tok I shot him down in flames.

Thank god i had a night off the sp the night before. mind you i suspected it was going to haopopen.

anyway I contacted the abc sy office ad spoke to the exec producer of the programme and she said to me that if they sacked me ( tok tok at the time in the papers) they would run another show using the other 3 hours of material I had given them

The comment at the time was well it will be a lot worse.

It doesnt matter anyway they havent changed. No gat moni not gat internet etc etc etc etc but hey they gat moni to go ovrseas for free piss ups etc etc

Sid

[Torres]

I spoke to two ex PNG Prime Ministers only last week. They certainly did not appear to be suffering the normal physical ravages of a poor third world economy....

[tipsy2]

Torres, you can include the current one as well.

It may not be politically correct to say so but had PNG not dropped the "T" in 1975 the people and the country would be far better off than they are now.

What Sid is trying to do is simply shake up the Poyles of PNG into action, something I fear will not be achieved.

It actually makes me sad to see the place now.

tipsy

[sid Otoole]

In response to your earlier comment on the icao audit on the 5 mar 09. I have just finished all the icao paper work for the aic !!!!! audit.

The outfit will catergorically fail miserably.

I wonder what next !!!!!!

Sid Otoole

[Waghi Warrior]

Given the report in today's Post Courier on page 5, I recon the CAA may just be getting a bit worried.

Seems like the CAA are now pointing their fingures at the government.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Air Ace]

Don't know why they would be worried - I hear a "Savior (http://www.rdcollins.com.au/profile.htm)" has been engaged for the ICAO audit! :E

[Checklist Charlie]

Back during a period that causes raised blood pressures and acrimonious diatribes from both sides, I was working in the operations areas of one of the major airlines. Each day it was part of my job to report the airlines previous days activities, flights, pax carried etc to a DoT man with the same name as the above mentioned "Savior" (sic). It became quite apparent to me that he was actually orchestrating the governments role in the happening dispute. He was actually the 'puppet master' pulling the strings and deserves to be regarded with equal disdain as is the 'silver bodgie'.

If the "Savior" is involved in the ICAO Audit of the PNG CAA then I perceive a serious conflict of interest is involved.

The "Savior" is also the headhunter engaged by the PNG CAA to locate candidates for various senior positions withing that organisation (see RD Collins & Associates | Recruitment - Positions Vacant | Aviation consultants, executive coaching (http://www.rdcollins.com.au/positions_vacant))

I do not believe the same organisation can both audt and act as a contrator for the PNG CAA. A blatant conflict of interest.

Perhaps Mr Kintau would care to comment or perhaps take advice from a large heli operator on what to say.

[SIUYA]

Air Ace.......

It's my understanding that if the so-called/alleged "saviour" has been engaged, then he would have been engaged by ICAO and not by the PNG CAA. And if that's the case then his involvement in the recent CAA recruitment drive may well be a classic conflict-of-interest. But why should any of us who know what happens in PNG be surprised by this?? :ugh:

I think Wahgi Warrior's 'on the money'............the CAA would at this stage be sh1tt1ng bricks I think on the certainty of another negative ICAO audit outcome for PNG, as per Sid's comments:

The outfit will catergorically fail miserably. I wonder what next !!!!!! :sad:

What should really be disturbing is that the (non-compliance) situation was first identified in, what.......2001?? Then again in about 2003???? And still nothing's been done to remedy the problems!! :ugh:

Sid............better pack your bags and head south mate. You'll be more comfortable AND safer I reckon. :ooh:

[sid Otoole]

Thanks for your reply

it is sicerely like pushing s..t up hill'

jurst for your infor the job was done to intnlo standards sith surveyors and company tech reps from brazil.

its a sahme the whole thing turned to **** when they stopped money for the job to be finished

Tks

sid

[tinpis]

How the hell does anyone get any insurance cover up there?

[Checklist Charlie]

Found this PNG needs $770m airport upgrade: authority - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/02/2480296.htm?section=justin) on the ABC website. Similar article in Post Guria this morning.

PNG needs $770m airport upgrade: authority

By PNG correspondent Steve Marshall (http://www.abc.net.au/profiles/content/s1888083.htm?site=news)
Posted 1 hour 31 minutes ago
Updated 1 hour 32 minutes ago
The Papua New Guinea Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) says it needs to spend $770 million to upgrade its airports.
Last year an investigative report by the ABC exposed a number of deficiencies within the authority.
CAA boss Joseph Kintau says most of country's airports are ill-equipped to handle Focker F100 planes, which carry up to 100 people.
Mr Kintau has placed advertisements in the daily newspapers to try and pressure the Government to release the funding.
"The urgency of replacement of infrastructure has not been fully appreciated by all stakeholders," he said.
"The longer we delay, the effect in the aviation and air transport in this country will be adversely affected."
A lack of funds continues to prevent investigations into aircraft crashes which have killed 16 people - including three Australians - since 2000.
An accident commission was recently established to clear the backlog, but a CAA insider says the commission has no money.

[the wizard of auz]

An accident commission was recently established to clear the backlog, but a CAA insider says the commission has no money.
I bet I know who that is. :E
so when did anyone in the PNG government have any money?.

[Checklist Charlie]

so when did anyone in the PNG government have any money?.
Wiz, if you follow closely behind most politicians and senior public officials in PNG and pick up what falls out of their pockets you will be a very rich man.

I've heard about pollies and exec's becoming the owners of nice real estate in Singapore, Brissy and Cairns after the lease of an aircraft was 'formalised'.

I also believe there is a shortage of brown envelopes and brown paper bags in PNG as well for some obscure reason:E

[Animalclub]

One out of office - at the time - politician (who subsequently became Minister for Civil Aviation) stated in the Post Courier that he had to get back into politics to pay off his debts. Now, what does that tell you?

[sid Otoole]

Dare I ask who is the "saviour" for the4 fast kapproaching ICAO audit ???

Sid O'Toole

[sid Otoole]

I really appreciate all the comment in this forum re the abc programme.

Well guess what ? After all the who haa and what happened in the media and the attempts by CAA to discreditg me I am still here (fighting).

I guess it boils down to one point nobody else is stupid enough to put up with all this s..t

Sid O'Toole

[Checklist Charlie]

Sid, see the link RD Collins & Associates (http://www.rdcollins.com.au/positions_vacant)

in my 26th January 2009, 21:11 post.

If you get to talk to him, make sure which particular face you are actually talking to at the time. It could change a number of times during any one conversation.

[sid Otoole]

gUESS WHAT ?

THEY GAVE ME THE PRE AUDIT PAPER WORK TO COMPLETE IN PREPARATION FOR THE ICAO AUDIT.

TO COIN A PHRASE THEY PUT THE LION IN CHARGE OF THE CHOOK PEN SO TO SPEAK. THE AIC (IF IT CAN BE CALLED THAT) WILL CATEGORICALLY FAIL MISERABLY.

TO QUOTE A VERY SENIOR PERSON IN THE ATSB IN CANBERRA THE AUDIT HAS DIRE CONSEQUENCES FOR PNG AVIATION.

IT IS INTERESTING HOWEVER THAT EVERY DAY STARTS THE SAME UP HERE, FIGHTING OVER MONEY TO GET THINGS DONE IE MONEY

SID O"Toole

[the wizard of auz]

Apart from effecting the international ops, how will failing the audit effect the industry?. domestically at least?.
Checklist Charlie, I was referring to monies available for the public good, not for the good of an individual. I am aware of how the pollies are feathering their own nests.... It is after all PNG. :ugh:
Brown paper bag shortage is a common occurrence in that and parts further west. :E

[Mach E Avelli]

If CAA fails an ICAO audit and is downgraded to a category 3 or C (ICAO categorisation system?) it should have no impact on domestic operators. CAA's bungling is not of their making and ICAO can't interfere with a sovereign country's internal affairs.
But APNG and PX won't be able to run P2 registered aircraft on international routes. APNG could probably access a VH rego Dash 8 via Skytrans and of course the Virgin B737 is OK because it's not P2 anyway.
Just when they thought they were almost over it, PX could be wetleasing all over again.

[the wizard of auz]

Thats about what I thought. so in essence, nothing will change other than a rego change for PX on the international routes. It kind of makes a mockery of the audit then.

[tipsy2]

Mach E Avelli, has it exactly correct. Fail the audit and there will not be any P2 registered aircraft accepted by other ICAO states.

The spivs will overcome this small problem in their usual inimitable way.:=

[sid Otoole]

No I am not deported yet ?

The fact of the matter is that there is no one else here t do the job ???

Just today bernie flanagen went finish to australia after a long distinguished and reputable career here inPNG.

I wish him, the king of the highlands, a long and well deserved retirement.

Sid O'Toole

[sid Otoole]

I cannot see them getting around anything this time judging by what I am seeing from this end

[High 6]

Just wondering how the CAA audit is going/went and when the first preliminary findings would be published?

Any updates would be appreciated for some of us who are keenly watching the events unfold.

Thanks Sid for what you have done and continue to do to make aviation safer in PNG. :ok:

[Torres]

"...long distinguished and reputable career here in PNG."

I'd agree with the "long distinguished career" part but question the "reputable"? :}

Sid, I'll PM you for Bernies new contact details. I'm occasionally in his area and would love to look him up for a chat.

[Sharpie]

I may well be 100% incorrect but I do not believe that we'll see too much of the report findings too soon. There are certain formalities to be completed first which will take time. No doubt we may receive information before the official report is presented to the regulator. We wait in anticipation

Those interested in the formalities could have a quick read of ICAO doc 9735.

Regards.

[sid Otoole]

preliminary briefing next thursday. INTERESTING !!

[blackhand]

Sid
Debrief at the Yacht Club ples.

Blackhand

[Sharpie]

Come on Sid, pray tell us more.:ok:

[SIUYA]

Sharpie......

No doubt we may receive information before the official report is presented to the regulator.

We're all hoping that will be the case! So c'mon Sid, as Sharpie's suggesting, TELL US MORE (please)! :ok:

[Sharpie]

preliminary briefing next thursday. INTERESTING !!

Hi there Sid. We are all waiting. 'tis now Next Thursday!

:):ok:

[Duck Pilot]

Ok fellas,
Dunno were Sid is, but the word from the horse's mouth is that the debrief was very mello so to speak, although there were comments made in regard to all areas of what was looked at. The preliminary findings/results will take about 3 to 6 months before they are released.

This info did come from Super Sid..

[Sharpie]

Extract from Icao Doc 9735. The Safety Oversight Audit Process

POST AUDIT ACTIVITIES – Up to 9 Months

State starts work on corrective action plan

SOA sends interim safety oversight audit report – within 90 days of audit

State submits corrective action plan
And comments – within 60 days of receiving interim oversight safety audit

SOA submits final safety oversight
Report to State – within 60 days of receiving corrective action plan.

State comments on final safety
Audit report (if any) – within 30 days of receiving final safety audit report.

Final Safety Audit Report published - Within 30 days of receiving States comments.

[Sharpie]

Interesting.
Sharpie.



DGCA gets 3 months to escape US rap 21 Mar 2009, 0505 hrs IST, Saurabh Sinha, TNN

Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:

NEW DELHI: The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on Friday concluded its five-day-long reassessment of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA)’s safety regulations, necessitated by a shocking lack of staff strength here. Based on the action plan prepared by India to avoid being downgraded by FAA to the levels of sub-Saharan African nations, from its current number one ranking, the American team is tentatively scheduled to be back in June and see the actual implementation of the plan.

The FAA could downgrade India, if the promise to make Indian skies safer by having a strong regulatory mechanism, which will ultimately see DGCA evolve into an autonomous civil aviation authority, remains only on paper and is not implemented. To begin with, the FAA is learnt to have softened its stance after seeing that India had started taking corrective action for strengthening DGCA ever since it first issued the threat of reassessment in January.

‘‘Certainly, they were aghast at the shocking lack of staff strength and we have assured them that in the next two to three months impressive action would have been taken. In fields where we have staff shortage like operations, airports and air navigation supervision, outside help is being taken by taking inspectors on secondment from airlines. These people will be on board shortly and work under our supervision,’’ said sources.
Unless India is able to implement these promises, downgrading would mean Indian carriers will not be able to add more flights to US and there planes would be subject to tremendous checks there, something that could affect their schedules.

[Waghi Warrior]

Just a follow up guys,
I believe the engines from the Airlink Bandit that crashed near Kandrian have been recovered and are now in the hands of Pratt and Whitney,thanks to the continued determination and hard work of Sid O'Toole. These engines should have been recovered ASAP after the accident and not 2 years later,it could only happen in PNG I guess.

Good on you Sid,you deserve more than the sh!t that you have to put up with !

Lukim.

[Sharpie]

Any truth in the rumour that one mainplane was found some distance away from main wreckage?

[the wizard of auz]

probably carted there by the wontoks....... then abandoned when they realized it was going to be work to carry it much further. :E

[FlexibleResponse]

...and of course, here we are back at square one...again.

PNG aviation is a very high risk activity. At the same time, the country cannot possibly survive without aviation, as other transport links are simply, non-existent or not viable.

Regulation and training in PNG varies somewhat and seems to run independently of the eye and control of the regulator. It has run this way since since WW2. And yet, the requirements of flying in PNG demand the highest and very best trained aviators to execute the dangerous daily tasks which are faced each and every day.

This would be a very big ask of the most sophisticated and advanced aviation regulatory and training systems in the world.

...and yet, somehow PNG aviation has to just get on with the job.

[Chimbu chuckles]

This would be a very big ask of the most sophisticated and advanced aviation regulatory and training systems in the world.

I would bet folding money if the UK CAA, US FAA, NZ CAA or CASA got involved with 'regulating' PNG aviation matters the place would grind to a halt in a week.

PNG operators have always self regulated - I would argue for the most part quite well. Certainly PNG DCA needs to be funded better than it is and staffed with people that KNOW PNG operations backwards - including the loop holes. I would be pleased to be proved wrong but I don't see that ever happening.

I would be surprised if PNG DCA has much more than 30% of the qualified staff it needs to be truly considered a 'functioning' department by international standards. I would be similarly surprised if it gets more than 30% of the funding it requires to be so considered.

As for national aviation infrastructure budgets - 10% might not be a bad guess:ugh:

Amazing when you think how dependent on aviation PNG is. Not least the fact that Kokoda Trail tourism has boomed in recent years and will undoubtedly be damaged by recent events.

[bushy]

Too many people, including regulators seem to think that aviation only consists of Boeings flying to capital cities.
There is much more to it than that, and regulators and their rules and activities tend often to inhibit services to places where infrastructure may not be so available and loadings are low. But these services can be essential to people doing essential work.
Certainly we have to have rules, but we should not have "Boeing rules" everywhere.

[nojwod]

By Aussie standards the situation in PNG is less than perfect... but I think you'll find that given the number of flights, the terrain and the weather, the aviation scene in PNG is pretty damn safe. The main reasons Aust has such a safe record in flying are the benign weather and the relatively flat nature of the continent.

But good on Foreign Correspondent for making the Aussies sit up and take notice, it might mean some aid heads their way to help pay for protecting precious Aussie lives. Within PNG itself I think you'll find that the population at large is quite happy with the safety record of aviation across the country.

[FlexibleResponse]

This would be a very big ask of the most sophisticated and advanced aviation regulatory and training systems in the world.

I would bet folding money if the UK CAA, US FAA, NZ CAA or CASA got involved with 'regulating' PNG aviation matters the place would grind to a halt in a week.

PNG operators have always self regulated - I would argue for the most part quite well.

I think that Chimbu has pointed out the essence of the success of PNG aviation in that it is largely self-regulated. The PNG aviation environment is very hostile and extremely unforgiving of any misjudgment either from pilots or other aviation operators. So as in Darwinian gene pool theory, you make a mistake then that's all...Those that have the skill-sets are able to survive and make a go of it. Commonsense interlaced with lots of PNG experience is the only criteria that has proved to date to be a viable way to operate.

I would think that it would be nigh on impossible to write a comprehensive set of regulatory notes to cover all the nuances of aviation operations in PNG. And if it were possible, squadrons of lawyers still would not be able to understand and clarify those regulations let alone explain them to the operators so that effective operations could still be enabled.

[Pinky the pilot]

Don't know if this thread really needs resurrecting but thought I'd do so anyway.:hmm:

Anyone have any information on whether things have changed much in PNG since the previous post on this thread? And if any changes have been for the better?

[QSK?]

Pruners:

As some of you may recall, Sid O'Toole was the air accident investigator who "blew the whistle" in 2008 on ABC Foreign Correspondent regarding PNG's poor air safety record and the CAA's alleged lack of an effective air safety approach.

Unfortunately, Sid has been battling cancer for some time and I am now sad to report that his condition has worsened considerably and he has now been hospitalised. The prognosis for recovery is not good.

For the information of all, Sid was a commercial pilot who became a Flight Service Officer with the then Department of Civil Aviation in 1973 and served at a number of FS Centres/Units throughout the QLD region before transferring to the then Bureau of Air Safety Investigation. Following BASI Sid transferred to the Air Safety Investigation Branch in PNG's CAA and ended up as the only investigator inside the ASI before his retirement. Without regard to the potential impact on his career with ASI, Sid was very vocal in criticising the CAA's apparent lack of action in investigating some of the major airline crashes in PNG and, therefore, raising awareness within the aviation community to this aspect.

I will report Sid's ongoing status but ask you all to think of him at this difficult time and to thank him for having the guts to speak out when he saw the need. Hopefully his efforts will not be in vain, and we all now must accept the challenge of continuing the fight for safety improvement in PNG on Sid's behalf.

[SIUYA]

QSK...

I hear you, and thanks for the update on Sid.

Please QRW him that we're thinking of him and wish him well. :(

[004wercras]

That is very sad news about Sid. He is one of a kind in PNG, a smart man, mighty fine investigator, and not afraid to call bulls#it when a crooked government and a crooked governments departments try to hide, massage or deflect the truth. Sid also worked at times with another like minded person, Alan Stray. The two of them enhanced PNG's investigative capability.

Best wishes and kind thoughts to Sid, his family, friends and followers.

[Unusual-Attitude]

I hear casa png failed its recent icao audit...so no, unfortunately, not much has changed.

We need more 'Sid's' and Alan's.

Thoughts with him and his.

[QSK?]

I am sorry to advise those who knew Sid O Toole that he passed away last Friday evening.

As soon as I receive advice on Sid's funeral arrangements, I will post on this site.

A pilot, FSO and air accident investigator, Sid was one who cared deeply about aviation safety and was always proactive in ensuring safety was foremost in everyone's minds.

Fly high and swiftly, wantok - your contribution won't be forgotten.

[The Big E]

I would bet folding money if the UK CAA, US FAA, NZ CAA or CASA got involved with 'regulating' PNG aviation matters the place would grind to a halt in a week.


Take a look at the PNG Rules created around the year 2000 and subsequently up to the present time, and compare them against the NZCAA Rules. I think that you will find a striking similarity, and likewise for the common Rules adopted by the countries who have previously signed up to PASO.:ok:

There seems to be little or no evidence of grinding to a halt in PNG?

Regards to ya all,

The Big E - One time Engine and Airframe Dual Category LAME on DC3, F27, F28, B707, and DHC-7 at PX Lae and POM. We knew how to do it safely then, and still have the required competency.

[chimbu warrior]

Take a look at the PNG Rules created around the year 2000 and subsequently up to the present time, and compare them against the NZCAA Rules. I think that you will find a striking similarity, and likewise for the common Rules adopted by the countries who have previously signed up to PASO

There is nothing sinister about this Big E; a number of countries adopted the NZ rules (a great pity Australia has not done the same), all done above board.

Likewise it is not the rules themselves that are a problem; it is the application of the rules, and more particularly the lack of effective oversight that results in problems. This is reflected in the USOAP audits. This is not a failure of the people employed in CASA PNG, but a failure by the PNG government to devote sufficient resources to the cause.

It's a bit like giving up smoking - for any "quit" program to be effective, you have to want to change.

[Mach E Avelli]

There is nothing wrong with the PNG Rules - in fact most are quite appropriate for the country. A few are not - such as Part 139. PNG simply cannot bring the majority of its aerodromes up to ICAO standards and to expect it to is unrealistic.
As for sufficient competent staff to conduct much needed surveillance of operators, the terms and conditions on offer at CASAPNG don't come close.
When their salaries and fly in fly out arrangements approach those on offer with the local operators, they will attract the right people.
Meantime operators get away with murder - sometimes quite literally.