Question for London (120.525) from 9/8/08

[MrHorgy]

Hi there,

Quite a nosey question from me actually so tell me to stick it or PM me if this isn't the place but..

Was heading away from Stansted yesterday evening on 120.525 and was listening to the LHR arrivals being stacked up and told of the delay (which I assume was due to some weather problems in the area) and a conversation regarding one of our continental chums caught my ear. It was difficult to guess what it was they were doing but it sounded like just leaving stacks without a clearance and the controller was pretty angry and said he was putting in a report. As he mentioned this "keeps happening with you people" I was wondering what exactly it was they keep doing?

This is just me being nosey mind!

Horgy

[kinglouis]

horgy. i was in yesterday working that sector amongst others... didnt know that had happened, but every know and then, and to be honest i cannot remember exactly the airline(s) involved, but every know and then they will get to BIG and just leave the hold heading west and decide to fly downwind etc etc. even though the clearance limit is big and we were in eat's for weather and a 30 to 40 wind at ground level it is bloody dangerous. if they were leaving the stack at all let alone anything above min stack, which was 80 yesterday means they are pointing themselves at a full hold at OCK and the ATCO on SW DEPS knows nothing of this.... can get very messy very quickly.
if it were ever to happen to me i would MOR them without a doubt.
any more info you want let me know, or even of you want to come down for a vist, youre most welcome.

KL

[MrHorgy]

I was reading the RYR vs ATC thread a moment ago complaining about a lack of interested people in your office, I'd love to come and have a peek at Heathrow Arrivals, is it all done at Swanwick now? I know there was a plan to move the directors and radars for London to make things easier (throw a strip across a room as opposed to making a phonecall ;) )

Horgy

[kinglouis]

all TMA and london approach sectors are all done from the same room. we only moved to swanwick last november so there are no plans to move anyone anytime soon.
flight deck are always welcome anytime.

[Defruiter]

Wasn't in yesterday, but no prizes for guessing which airline it was if it was inbound BIG :} Been on the receiving end of that more than once!

[MrHorgy]

Ahh yes i'm getting confused, it happens from time to time. I'll pop you a PM across and try and visit - likewise ATCO's very welcome on my flightdeck, I shall make positive steps to see if I can get it approved by my CP.

Horgy

[Caesartheboogeyman]

That would be brilliant, I havent been on a flight deck since the college. I really think we should encourage more cross visits

[Roffa]

I'll name and shame, I'd be surprised if it wasn't Air France.

Their excuse is usually that they haven't been explicitly told to hold so they just seem to start flying the track on the Initial Approach Procedures (Without Radar Control) plate.

ATC's defence is that the STAR says equally explicitly not to proceed past BIG (or LAM, OCK, BNN) without specific clearance.

It's not a good idea for so many reasons, perhaps the most important of which is that one is liable to very quickly meet another aeroplane in another holding area at the same level which would be bad news for all.

Mr H, as mentioned you and your colleagues are always welcome down on the coast.

[MrHorgy]

Roffa,

Yeah that's what I referring to, I didn't want to shame but the controller seemed to imply AF have a regular habit of doing this. Although it was interesting that if they had apologised I don't think they would have been MOR'd, it was only his lack of reply and the resounding "You know what, i'm gonna report this it keeps happening with you guys" that seemed to seal his fate.

Horgy

[Defruiter]

I was right then :}

[Mister Geezer]

Many UK airlines do still allow fam flights for ATCOs.... it is a myth that you are no longer welcome into our office. It obviously all has to be arranged in advance but it can still be done!