Icelandair B757 returns to KEF..

[ashland]

Today at 17:15 a New York bound Icelandair 757 returned to KEF after crew
reported engine trouble. Seems like similar event during AMS-KEF flight
short while ago. Anyone know what happened. Is it perhaps normal given
the high average age of their fleet ( 12+ yrs ). Me thinks RB211 from RR in UK
not a very dependable engine.......

[TartinTon]

Depends which variant of the engine you are talking about but generally a reliable engine. Perhaps you guys up there aren't very good at maintenance?
Or maybe that's as stupid a comment as you just made.....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

Me thinks RB211 from RR in UK
not a very dependable engine.......

The RB211-535E4 engine is remarkably reliable. It seems that Icelandair had serious bother and multiple engine changes with the two aircraft thay were flying for flyglobespan last summer. This suggest the problem, and there DOES appear to be one, is with maintenance in Iceland or wherever they are maintained.

[PantLoad]

Never flew the RR RB211, so I can't speak from experience. However, the engine has an excellent reputation.

But, I have a lot of experience with the CFM 56, and I can tell you, of the few problems I've had with that engine, ALL were due to poor maintenance. (Nope, can't blame even one of them on pilots, either!)

Fly Safe,

PantLoad

[AMM616]

Depends which variant of the engine you are talking about but generally a reliable engine. Perhaps you guys up there aren't very good at maintenance?
Or maybe that's as stupid a comment as you just made....

Excellent respone if I may say so TartinTon.

Ashland is obviously one of our more genned up members (technically speaking), so he is obviously aware that the RB211 is a little used and problematic engine worldwide.

:rolleyes:

[oceancrosser]

Depends which variant of the engine you are talking about but generally a reliable engine. Perhaps you guys up there aren't very good at maintenance?
Or maybe that's as stupid a comment as you just made....

Excellent respone if I may say so TartinTon.

Ashland is obviously one of our more genned up members (technically speaking), so he is obviously aware that the RB211 is a little used and problematic engine worldwide.

Well AMM616 you are obviously in the know. The RB211-535E4 on the 757 is actually one installation where the RB211 has had an excellent record. I´ve flown it 7000+ hrs and the engine has never failed me. Some accessories have but not the engine.
And ashland... this is one for the spotters corner, where you belong according to your member profile. Please stay there.

[karimi]

Guys common, why being so agressive?

[Joetom]

Think the RB211 535 E4 set and maintains one of the lowest IFSD in town.

[ashland]

This is from the website of visir.is:

Vísir - Fréttir - Innlent (http://www.visir.is/article/20080728/FRETTIR01/30709769)

and it confirms that FI has had 3 engine related emergencies during this month, that the Icelandic Aircraft Accident Investigation Board is examining these incidents.

My guess is that the age related strain on the aircraft plus the financial difficulties
of the company
are having a significant effect on the safety and reliability of this carrier...
not to mention staff moral....

But again, this is something you clever guys have seen and heard dozens of times
before.........

[Rainboe]

Ah! So you think now it may not be the unreliability of RR engines then? Perhaps you would make your mind up before posting next time! Funny that hundreds are flying around quite satisfactorily.

[oceancrosser]

and it confirms that FI has had 3 engine related emergencies during this month, that the Icelandic Aircraft Accident Investigation Board is examining these incidents.

Bull****! Vísir - Forsíða (http://www.visir.is) is about as good a source as The News of the World...
Your understanding of aviation "emergencies" appears to be on a par with that of a journo...

[dubh12000]

Don't Rolls use the Icelandair E4s in one of their posters? 30k hours on wing as I remember.

[oceancrosser]

Don't Rolls use the Icelandair E4s in one of their posters? 30k hours on wing as I remember.

It actually lasted 43k on wing. The replacement coming crisp from RR was replaced within 400 hrs. Go figure.

[ashland]

My dears, this is also reported on Icelandic State Broadcasting:

www.ruv.is - RNF skoðar 3 flugatvik (http://www.ruv.is/heim/frettir/frett/store64/item219118/)

so it is no gossip from News of the world,
must say I feel a little sorry for all the problems that our national carrier is entering
in to these days. At the same time they have resources to order 20 Sukhoi 100´s,
and want to be serious players in the aircraft leasing market,
and cannot manage and maintain their in-house fleet. They do have 18 years of
experience with B757´s and ca 16 of them in their fleet so there should be some
build up of know-how and expreience.

I am aware of my weak points, but somehow this just does not add up....

[Fresca]

Now it seems that this was a FOD, the engine showing some damage both to inlet and the outlet. Not a shutdown. Can't see how maintainace is to blame for that.

[ICEMAN757200]

The last Engine that flamed out twice before this KEF-JFK incident was a brand new engine that had just came from RR, no fatigue related stuff, severe damage or faulty componets.
Although the fleet is 12 years old it´s still much younger than some fleets in the USA ans even if the aircrafts are old the engines are not.:ugh:
The aircrafts that had engines running on iddle or flamed out on the globespan projet were 6-7 years old ex Iberia ACFT:confused: at the time and all engines had been overhauled by Iberia mantainance, shame on us to trust them and not checking what kind of mantainance procedures they were using, according to RR their overhauling procedures weren´t 100% approuved by them.:=

[smudgethecat]

I think you will find ashland the RB211 has the lowest incidents of in flight shutdowns of any large fan engine, fantastic bit of kit, however like any other piece of complex engineering they require looking after correctly

[JJflyer]

I would think that 14.7% inflation, interest rates rising out of control and Icelandic Krona dropping against all major currencies ( only about 40% against EUR in the last 6 months) has something to do with the problems Iceland Air has. No money = savings and lay offs. Perhaps the savings have been in the wrong place as Iceland Air maintenance department has been know for very good quality 3rd party maintenance that mostly stays in the allocated budget and timeframe.

[tommy777]

I just talked to my buddy who is a Senior Manager at CO's Engineering, he's been with CO since 1986. CO has 41 752s with RB211s. He claims that it's one of the most reliable engines he has ever worked with.

[maris757]

I would think that 14.7% inflation, interest rates rising out of control and Icelandic Krona dropping against all major currencies ( only about 40% against EUR in the last 6 months) has something to do with the problems Iceland Air has. No money = savings and lay offs. Perhaps the savings have been in the wrong place as Iceland Air maintenance department has been know for very good quality 3rd party maintenance that mostly stays in the allocated budget and timeframe.


This really doesn't affect Icelandair so much since most of their income is in foreign currencies like EUR and USD. Only 20-30% of the passengers are locals. Main income is therefore in foreign currencies.
The layoffs are directly connected to the oilprice, they are decreasing the winterschedule by 14% from previous winter, that is the main reason.

Regarding the inflight shutdowns which is the origin of this thread I'd like to tell what I know from first hand about them. All of those shutdowns are on engines that were on ex-Iberia a/c which used a workshop not approved by RR. Those engines have always been removed from the wing much earlier than non-Iberia engines. All original Icelandair engines have according to my knowledge always been overhauled by RR.
One of the inflight shutdown this recent month was due to failiure in a fuel governor not the engine it self. And by the way, that engine was a on a loan from RR since they messed up things with some Icelandair engine that was stuck in an overhaul at RR. The other engine was ex-Iberia :ugh:
The incident which is the origin of this thread is most likely due to FOD from the runway but not from a failiure of the engine it self. It must be Icelandair's lucky month!

Hope this will clear some errors out of someones head.

[418bus]

The E4 was a reliable engine but some are getting on for 23 yrs old, the B757 came into operation in Dec 1982 with RB211-535C engines the E4 came in to operation in approx 1985. The cost of a 535E4 shop visit is now $3.5M plus this does not include replacing LLPs ( discs). LLPs are costing an average of approx $0.5M per shop visit. This equates to approx $350 per engine per flight cycle in shop visit maintenance costs, or $700 in engine shop visit costs just for the engine each time the a/c takes off. Currenlty operators are trying to reduce operating costs even more. This exorbitant cost of maintaining the E4 could be a factor that may see E4 reliabilty reduce in coming years. Operators will spend the minimum to refurbish and overhaul the E4 engine.

[fade to grey]

3000 hours RB211 on the 757....

Never had one so much as blink.....brilliant engine:D

[mphysflier]

So was I particularly unlucky to experience an IFSD as pax on a BA 757 out of LHR back in Oct 1999? I believe that would have been of these RR engines (but correct me if I'm wrong...reasonably well-informed SLF only!)

From a pax point of view, a bit more reassurance from the CC wouldn't have gone amiss. They looked more scared than us, and it was only the calm, "hey we do this all the time in the sim" voice from the flight deck which slowed the adrenaline. The ensuing landing seemed a bit different from normal to me (yeah, I know, I know...) - can someone humour me and tell me whether there are any differences in approach in these circumstances, apart from the obvious compensation for unilateral thrust?

[ICEMAN757200]

They are differences in the approach, according SOP we have to use Flaps 20 for landing and higher autobrakes settings, it is about 10-20 kts faster than a normal landing depending on the weight and weather conditions(wind/gust).No automatic landing (planned) it´s allowed with 1 eng out. If you miss the engine when you have already selected flaps 30 you continue with that configuration.

[mphysflier]

Thanks Iceman -my suspicions confirmed.

[Bob Down]

All slightly off thread I think.

From what I hear (VERY reliable source) there was FOD into the engine causing substantial damage.

Handled by the PILOTS with the usual (and expected) consummate skill, turning a genuine emergency (Engine out just after V1) into a safe return, just as they are trained to do (unfortunately that isn't good press!!).

Whatever newspapers say or make up, whatever the state of the Icelandic Krona and Icelandairs Maintenance department, the rights or wrongs of the RB211's, let us for once remember this is a pilots forum and say 'Well done, chaps. Good job!'

It seems when it goes bad it is always the pilots fault, so for once let's glorify in saying that they got this one right, and b*llocks to the rest!

BD