How do ab-initio graduates afford SSTR programmes e.g. with Ryanair? [Archive]

Callsign Kilo

28th Jul 2008, 08:29

Don't go to Oxford or FTE. Save yourself 35K plus and get the same licence and the same skills required to pass a Ryanair assessment. Put aside the 35K that you saved by going modular and give Ryanair 22K for your training. Do what you like with the 13K you have left over - you will need it when you are Line Training! Plus, as contraversial as this may sound, you have the added bonus of not seeing the airline industry through the disillusioned eyes of some of the OAT cadets that I have come across. The ones that 'wouldn't be seen dead in a turboprop' and the others that go home crying to mummy and daddy because the big bad man at BA told them 'no thanks.'

And by the way, before I take the inevitable flack, not all integrated and especially Oxford students behave this way. I know a lot of good guys, but recently I have come across an incredible amount of assh**es which really don't deserve the jobs they are in. Rant over, sorry.

corsair

28th Jul 2008, 19:46

Not going to trash you, Kilo. Because I agree. I've come across a few of those types myself lately. Which amazes me really because it's a fairly new phenomenon. Pilots as are rule are self selecting and rather single minded in the ambitions but of late there I've met a few and heard of others who want to go straight to jets. No other flying will do. :confused: They will actually turn down a flying job because they don't like flying 'little aeroplanes'. The problem is that one or two of them actually get straight into jets and decide it's not really their thing after all.

Without any evidence to suggest it. I would think that most if not all come from integrated courses because modular pilots must of neccessity be rather more dedicated and self motivated to achieve their goal. Hard work though an integrated course may be. It is very structured and you really have nothing else to do but study and train. Like the military. I always imagine the typical disillusioned 'cadets' are similar. Probably from comfortable background, never had to work to hard for anything but did well in school anyway. Didn't really know what they wanted from life but knew it wasn't any boring career like Law or finance. Didn't fancy the military either. But hmm, airline pilot looks good. Fancy uniforms, good pay, travel, looks exciting. Daddy and Mummy have the cash to indulge their whim, so off to OAA they go.

I came across one or two older experienced pilots like this, mainly I must say, products of the sponsored cadet schemes. From their attitude you have to wonder why they don't just pack it in and do something else and let people who like the job get a look in.

It's the same in every profession, there are plenty of lawyers, accountants, Doctors etc who hate their jobs. But once sucked in they can't give up on the salary.

adverse-bump

29th Jul 2008, 18:27

Kilo,

Very well put. Im sick of hearing these kids moaning about not being able to get jobs with there 180 hours, and saying they have no choice but to go buy a type rating.

Just look at the maths, OAT 70k + living and then the better part of 30k to go work for ryanair. Dont tell anyone who works for them, but the rest of us are laughing at you!

G SXTY

29th Jul 2008, 23:02

Another factor is that by blowing that much money on an integrated course, some people put themselves in a position where they can't afford to service their debt on a turboprop salary. The only way they can make the numbers work is to find a jet job, thus slamming the door on the majority of 'first airline job' opportunities in the UK.

daria-ox

30th Jul 2008, 05:57

To be honest, I don't really get the wannabe's, at least some of them. I'm a wanna be myself just doing PPL and starting ATPL ground school by the end of this year. It's a fact that sometime in the future I will want to go to work for airlines and I would kick myself if I didn't. I'm doing the training modular way. It will cost me about 38K but there will be some extra's added so I guess I'll spend up to 40K but.. this isn't 70K + living. Another thing is I work 40 hours a week to get what I want, I buy the 10 hours block and by the end of the month I need about 200/300 pound which my parents put in for me. They're helping me out and I got thank them sometimes! My day looks like this.. I get up at 6 am, need to get to work for 8 and it takes me a while to get there. I work until 4/5 pm. I'm home by about 6 pm I eat something and then study for another 2/3 hours. Sometimes on weekends after studying I go out until about 12 pm because I have to get up in the morning and to be honest.. for some it may seem easy.. but this is my first job and sometimes as much as I hate it I have to be there by 6 am to get what I really want from life. So wannabe's going integrated way are just going the easy way.. but they spend a hell lot of money on training, with the 10K or so left if I had the 70K (including type-rating) I rather rent a plane and fly somewhere and enjoy myself..

But all I really always dreamed of was basically flying, being in the air and being free, but I would love to try flying on a Boeing or Airbus, beforehand I will work hard to become and instructor, it's another thing I want to do not to just build up hours like most. I will teach for few years, maybe after 2/3 years move to a charter company and maybe then to airlines with quite good experience? Because Boeing's and Airbuses.. it's a plane, you fly and it has it own experiences but I want to get some 'real' flying experience before I move to airlines, most of you know what I'm talking about ;)

wheelie my boeing

30th Jul 2008, 09:47

Hmmm, integrated is the "easy way" daria? Slightly warped view there me thinks.

Re-Heat

30th Jul 2008, 09:59

So wannabe's going integrated way are just going the easy way.. but they spend a hell lot of money on training, with the 10K or so left if I had the 70K (including type-rating) I rather rent a plane and fly somewhere and enjoy myself..
You can't view it like that - some people are not as disciplined as you might be in their training, or simply don't want the hassle of organising it themselves. Furthermore, the hour-building section of modular training is largely substituted for time with an instructor on an integrated course, in a more structured environment, which may be more suitable for some making the step to a structured airline environment than others.

It really depends on your situation, but at least have some empathy for the other side - one day you will sit next to someone who has persued a different course of training than yourself.

I think more people that you realise live at home, and are supported by parents - I also believe that you will find few wealthy parents among that cadre and many who have remortgaged for their children's dreams.

G SXTY

30th Jul 2008, 10:01

There's no such thing as an easy way. The choice is between the expensive way and the really expensive way. :)

daria-ox

30th Jul 2008, 10:04

It's not easy, you do the same stuff. What I meant was you take a loan, mortgage your house and you have the money instead working X hours a week to fly for an hour or two, you go into the integrated school, you live there you fly nearly every day if the weather etc is ok. It seems a lot of easier. If I was at integrated school I probably wouldn't be so happy about that too, because to be honest I like my life the way it is right now, maybe sometimes it's a complete mess and I don't have much time for myself but I'm working hard for something I love, somehow for me the modular way it's better to train because you have to prove your worth it somehow, I don't really know how to express myself. For me integrated school seems a lot easier than modular, but everyone has a personal opinion about that.

Tony Hirst

30th Jul 2008, 10:22

Daria,

You only get one shot get getting through all the phases with acceptable results, don't make it any harder than it needs to be. I completed training modular style by studying and training in my free time by getting up at silly o'clock, managing family life and holding down a demanding career. How hard you ended up working isn't really all that relevant, how well you did is. I'm not meaning to imply probable failure, but from my experience I can't recommend your approach.

daria-ox

30th Jul 2008, 11:49

I'm not making it harder than it needs to be. Becoming a pilot isnt the easiest career I could have choosed but I'm working hard to get what I want, I'm studying hard and quite a lot to get good results not just acceptable.

Day_Dreamer

30th Jul 2008, 13:22

There is only one way to go and that is INTEGRATED.

Back to topic. How do they raise the money ?

Most of the students have taken a second loan to cover the training costs, BUT these are only available if there is a job at the end of the type rating course.

Several students already have a student loan as well as the integrated training loan of £50000 and have been turned down by HSBC for a further advance on this factor.
Others have gone elsewhere for the loan, to their own bank for example after showing through their results that they have the commitment and desire to succeed, a bank manager is a difficult beast to convince these days.

There is also the bank of mum and dad, but with the credit crunch thats closing down except for the very rich, or lottery winners.

There are ways to finance the extra cost, but without a job offer its a no go, I am sorry to say.

p1lot

30th Jul 2008, 15:16

I haven't been on this website for years, and I now realise why...some people are full of jealous, chip on shoulder sh1te, to be blunt!

Being an airline pilot is a very serious career and one in which learning is a career long process. The most important part of this ongoing knowledge building process is the foundation...ie initial training. This cannot be gained as the result of a part time hobby or after work activity, it is in itself a full time job. Anyone who aims to gain "the knowledge and skills to pass the ryanair interview" has completely missed the point, the aim is to know as much as possible to be the best pilot possible. Aim high and back youself, don't plan for if you fail, go and make sure you don't, whats wrong with aiming to go straight on to jets, go work for it and make it happen.

My whole point is this...go to the best school to receive the best possible training, put your head down and put all your efforts into training rather than trying to save money and spending time coming up with crazy images of integrated students who have it all handed to them. In doing that the job opportunities come automatically because you have earned them. For people who have gone in with this philosophy and who have found themselves in the position of having to spend more money at the end, then this is something they deal with if it arises, at least they tried.

In summary...stop whining, gossiping, scrimping, scraping and speculating, go out and train to be a pilot and if you are good enough the opportunities will be there at the end, dont aim to fail.

daria-ox

30th Jul 2008, 15:46

Integrated - the only way?! Are you joking me now?

Pilot I agree with you. Getting all the money from your parents and getting everything handed to you, that's not hard work. Maybe when you study yeah,, but modular shows that you really want to become a pilot, that you really care and will try as hard as you can to get there in the end.
And once again.. 'flying' doesn't mean flying a B737 for BA, it doesn't matter what you fly what matters is that you fly and it doesn't matter if it's a Cessna or an Airbus. Because most of you say.. you want to become a pilot and by that you mean fly just for airlines. That's not the real flying. Don't you all wannabe's want to get some real flying exprience before moving on to airlines?

THE WELSH WIZARD

30th Jul 2008, 16:40

I just wana fly baby.............

I dont care who for and what, i just want to fly fly fly...

Take care.......well put Daria-ox.

Regards

TWW:ok:

Vin Diesel

30th Jul 2008, 16:58

For anyone with an fATPL whether having been through a modular or integrated route being in a position to finance that SSTR could be crucial. (ab initio's can be modular too.)

I wouldn't like to raise the cost of the fATPL course, get the licence, pass an assessment and be offered a place on a TR course, only to have to go to a bank in the current credit crunch environment and ask for £25k particularly if I'm currently unemployed (having just been training full time for a number of months), with already significant debt (some or all of the cost of that modular or integrated training) and then be turned down by the banks as too great a risk.

The numbers might be larger for integrated grads as the course to fATPL is generally more expensive than modular, but the issue, planning your finances for every aspect of your training including such undesirables as partials, retests, SSTR's remains the same.

I wouldn't gamble and stretch to fund a course to fATPL and MCC without factoring in the possible need to pay for a SSTR/Instructors rating at the end, and of course consider that you may need to return to/find alternative non flying employment which will pay enough to service any debt you have from the course and maintain your currency so that you'll be sharp enough to pass the next assessment you're offered.

To answer the original posters original question: How do ab initio grads afford an SSTR? Magic.

daria-ox

30th Jul 2008, 17:30

TWW, That's the truth and most of us agree with it, but some wannabe's are just pi$$in people off because they want to fly just for an airline. But what's the point going straight to airlines? For some it works out. I was on holidays in Poland not that long ago. I went to visit a flying school near my old house, every week there's a group meeting of the pilot student club, I decided to go to one of the meetings and to be honest I was shocked after what I heard there. I am a wannabe as lot of us and the whole group. The meeting went quite well, at the end of it I got to talk to few Polish wannabe's and a hell lot of British wannabe's. Most of them came over to Poland for the air races and joined the club for a while as it's in the building next to airport at which the race was taking place. I spoke to them about training the modular and integrated way, nearly all of them didn't even enjoy their PPL from what they've said and they want to fly Boeings/Airbuses! Most of them thinks that they will get a job with 250 hours in their logbook, when I said that I was going to instruct for a while they said that I wont be a pilot :} but an instructor and that PPL still doesn't make me a pilot. I was shocked! Private Pilot License, it says Pilot License and even though they said it still doesn't make me a pilot if I don't fly for big airlines. That's mad! You're a pilot from the moment you have your PPL don't you think? They said I'm totally stupid going the modular way because for them it's pointless because if I went integrated I would have got a job straight away, and we have to agree, that's still not the truth.. . I just don't get how irrotating and stupid are some wannabe's. They don't know a damn thing about the industry but they still go for it and I bet that some of them won't like their jobs after a year or so, they didn't even have the flying bug, the motivation.. don't get them :ugh:

BerksFlyer

30th Jul 2008, 18:30

daria,

There are a lot of misinformed people out there, unfortunately they are usually the ones who have it all on a plate. If they had to make an effort they wouldn't bother. They may well be bored of the job within a few years (if they get a job!), but I suspect that doesn't matter to them much aslong as they can pull birds with their uniform. Don't let it get to you, just get on with what you're doing and be happy. I'd still say the majority of people are motivated by a love of flying and aviation and that's what gets them by. Most people are happy to fly whatever, some only want to fly jets but you have to appreciate that this isn't always due to an 'I only want to fly for airlines' attitude, but often because they would be unable to service their loan on any pay other than airline pay.

.Aero

30th Jul 2008, 18:45

but some wannabe's are just pi$$in people off because they want to fly just for an airline

Your a pilot the minute you earn a pilots licence irregardless of the privileges. That's like saying your not qualified/licenced driver because you don't drive an articulated lorry and get paid for it!

There is nothing wrong with going down the modular route. It's been the established route for donkeys of years and it certainly works! 80% of low hour pilots that join the airlines are newbies that have gone down the modular route. The Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators (GAPAN) will happily back this up for you.

It'll be hard for you to get an objective view if you specifically ask 'wannabes' that have already started training. Most trainee pilots are quite defensive of their decisions and the routes they have followed. Training & education are areas that sit quite deeply with people alongside such things as religion and money! :}

daria-ox

30th Jul 2008, 18:59

I always thought and been told that everyone is meant to do what they love, appreciate and something they won't get bored of in a few years time. I don't understand how some wannabe's are just so foolish. I wonder what they would do if they had to go the modular way..

wbryce

30th Jul 2008, 19:19

I started when I was 18, used my full time job to fund my PPL and hour building, stock piled some cash then done my ATPL's CPL and IR. It took me 4 years to get my IR with only a career developement loan (8k). The banks then financed my RYR TR. Not everyone takes out massive loans and completes the training in 16 months. Get a job and take your time. 4 years is the same time period as a respected university course.

daria-ox

30th Jul 2008, 19:33

Wbryce - I totally agree.

preduk

30th Jul 2008, 19:37

Daria,

I don't believe you have the experience or knowledge to slag those pilots who decide to do it the integrated route or those that wish to jump straight into the airlines.

I understand you have an interest in local flying but at the same time you need to understand that different people want different things. I would much rather fly an Airbus or a Boeing than Twin Otter, not because I don't appreciate the skill and knowledge required to fly a twin, but my ultimate goal in life is to fly these aircraft and so it would be common sense for me to try and get onboard of these aircraft as quickly as possible using the quickest route.

I'm not trying to suggest integrated flying is the best route, but many people get stuck in the integrated routes because of the shiney new aircraft, the fancy name and fantastic marketing. It doesn't make them fools.

I personally am doing the Modular training route, with the ambition to fly large aircraft as quickly as possible with a large airline. Not that I would turn down a job with the likes of Loganair though :ok:

daria-ox

30th Jul 2008, 19:43

Im not slagging pilots off, I'm mainly talking about daft wannabe's.. I know that some people would want to get to airlines as quick as they can. but what about those who doesn't have a damn idea about aviation and go for integrated school because it seems 'cool'?

Mercenary Pilot

30th Jul 2008, 19:59

Big planes - Little planes
Props - Jets
Modular - Integrated
Lifestyle - Money (or both ;) )

Different strokes for different folks, there is far too much jealousy in this game and it's mostly from those who have little knowledge, ability or aptitude.

It's a long road to the top, best not to cultivate that chip early.

Regards

MP
:ok:

JohnRayner

30th Jul 2008, 20:18

Different strokes for different folks, there is far too much jealousy in this game and it's mostly from those who have little knowledge, ability or aptitude.

It's a long road to the top, best not to cultivate that chip early.

Life is indeed too short to get annoyed with other people. Do what you're going to do. Do it the way you want to do it. Accept that opinions are like ars£hol£s (i.e. everyone's got one and no-one really wants anyone else's), and that there are often many solutions to a given problem.

Saves on stomach linings and tooth enamel IMHO

:cool:

Philpaz

30th Jul 2008, 20:31

Merc,

Couldn't have put it better myself, far too much moaning on here. Keep your eyes on were your heading and let the others take their own path.

preduk

30th Jul 2008, 20:57

Daria,

Sorry. I haven't met anyone in my life who wants to do an integrated course because it's "cool" maybe its perhaps because your talking to daft wee 15 year olds that don't understand the meaning of money.

Stop worrying about what others are doing and aim for what you want in life.

daria-ox

30th Jul 2008, 21:52

I met an 18 year old who said 'it's cool'. I'm not worrying about others, just lately I've been thinking how stupid some wannabe's are, they don't have a clue what they do but they do it.

Day_Dreamer

30th Jul 2008, 22:30

daria-ox

Is it sour grapes I detect, might you have failed the selection to get onto an integrated course ?

If you have not tried then maybe you should as you will learn a lot about yourself, and if you really have what it takes to get to the top in this career.

The selection procedure to get into the likes of OAA is not rocket science, but one thing it does is separate the men from the boys, and the find those that are motivated to succeed whatever their age.

Stop talking (typing) and listen, for when you know that life is 2/3rds listening and 1/3rd talking you will achieve your goals.

While this downturn is here SSTR's and probably the integrated route will be the quickest and best path to an airline job over the next 18 to 24 months.
If you cant afford this route yet, wait and save that cash until you can.

preduk

30th Jul 2008, 22:42

Day_Dreamer,

How long do you think it would take most people to save over 80k?? A number of years, by which time you could easily get a job by doing the modular course AND do it for half the price.

If you have 80k sitting about, go for the integrated course you will most likely get a job as soon as you leave. If not, then the modular course will suit you, having an 80K loan isn't a good start in life especially when your in your early twenties.

Daria,

You get many immature 18 year olds still sadly, when you hear a mature wannabe say they are joining it because the course is "cool" I give you permission to hit them with the nearest object :ok: (joking of course)

BerksFlyer

30th Jul 2008, 22:52

Is it sour grapes I detect, might you have failed the selection to get onto an integrated course ?

Are you serious in thinking that people only ever don't go to integrated schools because they fail the selection?

What's wrong with the GAPAN aptitude testing?

And another thing I'd consider with aptitude testing and modular students is that they all havea PPL before progressing onwards and so have already demonstrated they have the foundations. Integrated students on the other hand have to be tested due to the fact that most of them do not have any flying experience.

Spit-Fire

31st Jul 2008, 08:38

There are advantages to Integrated courses but can't think of many - PIC time 50hrs less than Modular route for CPL.

From experience and mine is from the Modular side, Integrated would I'm guessing suit someone with the money and who knows themselves well enough to know they couldn't motivate to study at home (but not everyone). Anyone working can pass the ATPL's with hard work put in during the evening - dedication & commitment!

By and large some good points raised by all previous and I tend to agree from what I hear on the inside regarding recruitment (not everyone), which is that airlines are tending to find Modular students have more drive and passion as they have proved they can motivate and are passionate, not just loaded (again, not everyone though).

One thing I would say to anyone about to splash out on training the Integrated route coming from an economist point of view, is research, research, research. We are going into a very difficult period and there are lots of Pilots both past and present with no jobs due to over borrowing and salaries not matching repayments.

The so called 'Doom & Gloom Merchant' phrase is misused and quoted often by the confused. Being a realist is the approach of the better prepared person. Have a dream like I have and work to it with a schedule but ultimately stay in touch with training organisations (plural) and get a general picture of what is happening around you. Speak to as many Pilots as you can who ARE employed and find as much information out as you can.

DO NOT read too much from PPRuNe as you will find most Pilots (working) avoid it like the plague.

Good Luck

:)

daria-ox

31st Jul 2008, 09:41

I didn't want to go through the integrated way. I could have my parents mortgaging our house for 80K, but seriously, I rather do it myself and show that I can do it. I rather work for it than take this amount of money from my parents or work for it for the next 5 years, it's a fact that they do help me financially but I rather pay as I go. I have a job which gets me enough money to get through the modular way, and another thing, I don't want to go straight to airlines as you have probably read before, so going integrated for me isn't the way. I rather work a little bit harder knowing that in the future I worked hard for it instead getting everything on plate.

Sometimes really I hate my days, I work and study, work and study, at weekends I go out but most of time I have to work, but at the end of the day I know I do it because I want my dreams to come true and to be honest, that motivates me a lot. I had a choice of going the integrated and modular, I choosed modular because I had my reasons. The main one was the money, my parents could have taken a loan but I rather prove to them and make them proud that I've done it all by myself and that I worked for it.

It's a fact that it will take longer than integrated, but so what? I'm young and I have lot of time. I want to get some different expierences on flying before going to airlines too so I'll do few conversions after I gain my PPL, I'll definately go to fly few hours in Poland and Spain, then come back, do the CPL, and few different courses including FI and work as a instructor for a while maybe then with time, I will be ready to go to airlines, because for me if I had 250 hours flown I wouldn't want to go to airlines I rather get some real flying done before I do.

And as BerksFlyer said, what's wrong with GAPAN aptitude testing?

Ollie268

31st Jul 2008, 11:44

Mercenary Pilot - i couldnt have put it better myself :ok:

What ever route people choose to take is their business only and is not for you all to slag off. You make assumptions based on little known facts. I chose the route based on years and years of thought, work, research and i chose what is best for me. I was 19 when i started and i went Integrated not because i thought it was "cool" but for many reasons which are my own. I have many many friends in the industry both from integrated, military and modular routes - at the end of the day we all end up at the same place at first, the right hand seat and therefore it doesnt actually matter how you get there.

In answer to the topic, i funded my TR from a mixture of an unsecured loan and money from a previous job. And all this about 30k for a RYR type rating....well its the rumour brigade again i can assure you its alot less.

tupues

31st Jul 2008, 12:58

And as BerksFlyer said, what's wrong with GAPAN aptitude testing?

Its more expensive than the FTO tests.

BerksFlyer

31st Jul 2008, 13:30

Its more expensive than the FTO tests.

It's also more extensive than FTO tests.

G SXTY

31st Jul 2008, 13:53

And GAPAN aren't about to relieve you of £70k+ based on the results of your tests . . .

nich-av

31st Jul 2008, 13:53

There are advantages to Integrated courses but can't think of many - PIC time 50hrs less than Modular route for CPL.

I agree with your arguments except for the above one. Less pic and total time is a disadvantage if the cost is not reduced to match the lower requirement.

The greatest advantage of modular is that you get to acquire autonomy, sense of initiative. There's not always someone checking on you, making sure you're fine as in integrated schools. In modular, you book your own courses, your aircraft, your instructors, prepare navs to places you decide to go, monitor your budget, think of ways to achieve your goal (money-wise) and look for schools you think suit your needs, etc...

That in itself reflects initiative, engagement and motivation.

tupues

31st Jul 2008, 14:13

My mistake. GAPAN is £15 cheaper than OAAs. Its a one day 2 hr test. OAAs is 2 days with SIM, COMPASS and TECH tests, team exercises and a 2 on one interview.

BerksFlyer

31st Jul 2008, 14:26

My mistake. GAPAN is £15 cheaper than OAAs. Its a one day 2 hr test. OAAs is 2 days with SIM, COMPASS and TECH tests, team exercises and a 2 on one interview.

You also get debriefed one on one with the GAPAN tests and they have no interest in it other than to make you realise if you have the aptitude or not. OAA on the otherhand will be making a very healthy profit out of you should you meet a minimum requirement.

JohnRayner

31st Jul 2008, 14:46

You also get debriefed one on one with the GAPAN tests and they have no interest in it other than to make you realise if you have the aptitude or not. OAA on the otherhand will be making a very healthy profit out of you should you meet a minimum requirement.Yup, and as far as I know, it tests aptitude in a a way that you can't cram or revise for. You've either "got it" or you haven't.

Not been to an OAA open day, but wonder what you have to do pass. I mean, someone with ab-initio requirements (i.e. NO flying experience) almost by definition should screw up anything they try to do in a simulator, so why do it? there'll be more boring, but easier to interpret methods of assessing hand-eye, depth perception, decision making, reaction times etc. etc.

Also, maths is maths whatever you're applying it to, and a reasonable 'A' level maths student should be able to handle most things thrown at them.

At the end of GAPAN, you get 1-to-1 with someone in the industry for feedback/ advice etc. To my knowledge they don't get paid for it whatever you decide, so maybe a bit more impartial?

Day_Dreamer

31st Jul 2008, 15:12

Here we go with the next batch of which one is better !!!
Well I am biased, as I strongly believe in the OAA product, their 2 day selection procedure is very well thought out and balanced.
It gives the candidate an excellent snapshot of themselves, which shows how well prepared the person is for a career in aviation, and a pass will show that the candidate has what is needed to complete the course in the required time and at minimum risk to themselves.
GAPAN tests I am sure are excellent as far as they go, but power for your pound the OAA is better value.

The reply to the question do I think people only go modular after failing selection the answer is NO, but many who do fail try an easier selection, or go modular.
Oxford's Waypoint scheme for modular students is proof of this, and produces some excellent results.

Modular suits some who wish to spread the cost of their training, whilst working to fund each stage of training.
But this is also used as the "cheapo' route with in some cases schools with lower standards and quality control, that is why there will be a tightening of standards and greater oversight by regulating Aviation Authorities.
Ultimately this will lead to higher costs for the modular route narrowing the gap with the integrated or waypoint schemes.

I was an integrated student back in the late 60's and in those days if you could afford to pay you got in, unlike today.

Its a hard cold world out there and one needs to give one's self the best chance to land that first job and although I do not entirely agree with the SSTR route it will be the only game in town soon.

Training on the cheap will in all probability not prepare the student adequately enough for that jump to the right seat on a SSTR course so choose the training establishment with great care, either on the modular route or integrated.

Also the SSTR provider should be looked at carefully, as I know companies who have had to fail or completely re-train already type rated pilots.

DON'T go into an SSTR unless there is a job at the end of the course, and certainly DON'T go there if they only offer the rating and say 150 hours on type, it will be of no use to you when looking for that long term employment.

Artie Fufkin

31st Jul 2008, 16:44

Great to see pprune is up to its usual high level of debate on the age old "I did modular/ integrated, anyone who did integrated/ modular is a tw@t" argument.

:rolleyes:

Spit-Fire

31st Jul 2008, 16:55

Have you ever thought that not everybody is sad enough to read through streams of information from years ago but has the common sense to post a reasonable question - unlike yourself...

hollingworthp

31st Jul 2008, 17:24

And GAPAN aren't about to relieve you of £70k+ based on the results of your tests . . .

OAA will however back up their assessment by offering Skills Protection which refunds all training fees (not accommodation though) paid up to and including the CPL test should a student fail through lack of ability (rather than application)

BerksFlyer

31st Jul 2008, 17:37

hollingworthp

31st Jul 2008, 17:48

Wouldn't make particularly good business sense to start filling up courses with people who you will end up having to refund 10 months into the course.

Adios

31st Jul 2008, 17:51

Quite the opposite BerksFlyer. Show me an FTO that likes to give refunds, even when the flying has not been completed. Pprune is littered with posts by people who were unhappy with a course (mostly modular students doing PPLs in the States it seems), pulled out and can't get their advance payment back. Yes, OAA will make a lot of money off those that pass. Likewise, they could lose a lot if they pick ones that are not capable. They could also clog up the sausage machine if they take ones who can't keep up. Degraded efficiency means degraded margins. From what I have heard, their standard is high and they absolutely do not waive it, even if you miss a pass mark by one point. If anything, they are binning capable wannabes for fear of having to give a refund.

F/O UFO

2nd Aug 2008, 15:09

Hi folks, I've been away for a while and have just read the rest of the thread- seems to have gotten a little off-topic! Hopefully this won't turn into another integrated/ modular debate, I have made up my mind (as someone said earlier for my own reasons) and I shant bore you all telling you why.

I was hoping to get a few more replies from people actually having completed integrated courses and then paying their way for a type rating. Of course this is not my preferred way of getting into the industry but I'm trying to prepare myself for every eventuality and this seems to be the way things are going).

WQ - ingo

4th Aug 2008, 02:40

I recently attended a cabair open day and got speaking to the hsbc bank manager in charge of the ab-inito loans.. She told me that the milton keynes branch provide full funding assistance for the whole course plus living expenses if required. She also went on to say how they had also funded the extra for the type rating on top of the 65k with certain individuals. Their business and contingency plan must have been impressive!

geordiejet

4th Aug 2008, 10:39

OAA will however back up their assessment by offering Skills Protection which refunds all training fees (not accommodation though) paid up to and including the CPL test should a student fail through lack of ability (rather than application

I would take this with a pinch of salt. Like all other "protection" or "peace of mind" schemes in life - you quickly learn they are not worth the paper they are written on.

From my experience - one thing FTOs like doing is giving refunds - they are quick to take money, but very shy when it comes to giving back.

I was hoping to get a few more replies from people actually having completed integrated courses and then paying their way for a type rating.

Yes - you would expect more of a response - especially when more OAA students to to ryanair than ANY OTHER AIRLINE.

hollingworthp

4th Aug 2008, 12:33

I would take this with a pinch of salt. Like all other "protection" or "peace of mind" schemes in life - you quickly learn they are not worth the paper they are written on.

Presumably you are basing this comment on direct experience of OAA's refund scheme ... or is this in fact the fashionable knee-jerk reaction to anything relating to OAA or the other FTO's?

stefair

1st Sep 2008, 19:13

rick0

2nd Sep 2008, 02:03

I just wonder where are the times when aviation enthusiasts marveled at the sky because they just wanted to fly anything and were happy if they could and did not care what they were flying. Today it's all about status. And a turboprop or smaller AC does not have that status to a great many. It makes me sad to see. Most young pilots used to grow into the industry gradually and had to earn their wings over many many hours before they were sat into an airliner. Today it's just about money not aptitude.

There were times when pilots were respected for what they did and were paid accordingly. People coming out of the sausage factories the likes of OAA or FTE to which they not only pay a totally overrated price for the training but also buy themselves into the jet job, e.g. FR, don't realize, as they are selfish and shortsighted, how much they actually hurt our profession and consequently themselves too. This makes me sick and bluntly speaking I have a complete lack of respect for those individuals.

Before people slack me off now as just being jelous let me tell you this, two years back I actually had the choice of going integrated or modular because I was and am in the fortunate position to have parents that are able to completely fund my training. However, the math simply did not make any sense to me because I want to make money with flying at one point in my life. Today I am just glad glad glad I went modular. Not only have I had the most exciting time over the last couple years, because I have flown a whole range of different aircraft, including traildraggers, and was not put in a cheap uniform made in China, in many parts of the States including the Bahamas, UK and Spain, but also got the training at about half the cost of if I had gone integrated.

I have just finished my training and already started my first job which is flying a 172 into different gras strips all over the UK doing aerial photograpy which obviously is not as well paid as a job with BA but boy it's so much fun. I get to fly almost every day, and the coolest thing, I do actually get to do hands-on flying! Obviously I do not want to do this for the rest of my life but for now it's all I ever wanted. I am slightly worried because the industry has slowed down so dramatically but I know it will get better in the end. If I wanted to I could fork out the money for a TR with FR but this is not what I believe in!

When I started off with my training I wanted to get it done with the best possible fun factor but at the lowest cost, as I am certain there are ways around having to pay for the TR myself. I just wish everyone would do the same which would result in an overall increase in pay, but most importantly, an increase in respect towards the profession of us pilots as it would be a clear message to the managements. Anyway, enough of me ranting!

You don't think you're over analysing it all a bit too much?

I don't think 'status' or money.. do you really believe that (as stated on here.. i think) an OAA graduate would turn down a job on a Q400 (for example) because it's not a 737/757/A32x? That's absurd.. why would they have gone for the job interview in the first place? :rolleyes:

And you say about people buying their type ratings with Ryanair.. do you think just because they paid for it, it makes them a crap, unenthusiastic idiot? hardly, surely by that logic the person in question would never have done that because they know they would have to bring their own lunch with them!

Surely they will have all been put through tough sim sessions to see if they definitely do have what it takes not just because they've handed over some big fat cheque - the chief pilot wouldn't care about that would he?

I have to admit the OAA stereotype is starting to seem more obvious.. I do get the impression that some of them are unenthusiastic rich kids with a very naive view of it all... but I suppose thats the because of the course offered.. "Pay £65k and become an airline pilot!" - it doesn't "appear" to be the hard work, ups + downs, gritty modular way.

It is interesting that the fun factor has been mentioned.. that is definitely something i'm taking into account - and i'm leaning towards OAA on that one.. it does look a blast (bar the ground school ;) )

corsair

2nd Sep 2008, 13:27

If I was starting now. I would try to get on an integrated course quite simply because it's the quickest and frankly the easiest method. You go to a FTO, they train you, you work hard and at the end of a couple of years you're qualified........if I had the money or I could get the money.

If I hadn't got enough money but sufficient to go full time. I would do a full time modular course of some sort, probably in America. This is the commonest method for people who have worked for a while and borrowed or saved enough to train.

The worst method is to continue to work and borrow as you go. That method takes years and is fraught with difficulty. But quite often is only way for many people. And that is the method I was forced to use.

As for people's motivation. I'd say most are the same. But you will get more people on integrated courses who just want to be airline pilots because it looks like a 'cool' career. They could have been Doctors or Lawyers or whatever but chose pilot. Most of them would never survive the modular method because of the compromises and difficulties.

But at the end of the day, when it comes to actually flying an airliner. After a few months in the job. You won't notice the difference or even care. Statements like 'Integrated courses prepare you better for an airline career' may or may not be true but it's irrelevant because the majority of pilots come down the modular route and they seem to have perfectly adequate careers.

Daria's fate is to still believe in the more romantic view of flying. Indeed many of us still do. The one thing I will say to you Daria is the men in general don't like to express that attitude whether they think it or not. It's the old macho thing especially in groups of men and particularly young men with their excess of testosterone. Get one alone and you might find a different attitude. The macho view on flying is blatant here on PPRuNe. God forbid you wax lyrical on the subject. You'll be hammered from all sides. Remember it's and 'industry' now and none of your airy fairy 'slipped the surly bonds of Earth' poetic nonsense.

So all we talk about is the career progression and terms and conditions. Like it was just another Accountancy job.:ugh:

You get the wrong sort in any business or website. Ignore them and do your own thing.

Wee Weasley Welshman

2nd Sep 2008, 13:34

You can do the modular route in just the same timespan as the modular so lets not believe the fallacy that Integrated is quicker.

However, with Modular you do have the ability to pause your training. Stagger it with work and family commitments. It is also possible to make a judgement about the employment cycle and control your entry to it. It is also relatively simple and easy to change training provider should you find either their brochure or their attitude to not be to your liking.

Integrated lacks these advantages.

Over the years have found that the Integrated route makes more sense in the boom times and Modular in the Bust times.

Coming back to the thread topic. A lot, possibly most, of the big cheque writing that has funded people spending up to £100k on flying training has come from mortgage equity withdrawal. Either their own mortgage equity or their parents was used in conjunction with unsecured debt.

MEW in the first quarter of 2007 stood at £13.9billion and in the first quarter 2008 it was £5billion. The disappearance of this funding may or may not have an effect on the ability of Wannabes to fund training. It'll be interesting to find out.

Could be that if you can afford the whole thing there will less competition as others can't.

Could be that airlines cannot find enough people able to to a SSTR and thus take over the burden again like they always used to.

Interesting times.

WWW

MartinCh

2nd Sep 2008, 13:58

Daria,

interesting you removed your age from the info about you.
So others don't see you're 17. Nothing wrong with being young, but as I stated in the past, you tend to have simplistic or bit misinformed views in other threads.
You could see things differently in mid-20s or 30s, more life experience.
More years of being independent, work away from parents' house etc.

As for Im not slagging pilots off, I'm mainly talking about daft wannabe's, hmm. So someone finishing intergrated is pilot, therefore not ANYMORE daft wannabe.
We all have/had dreams of flying and flying for living. I don't think calling someone daft on the grounds of their preferences and available opportunities is suitable.

So your parents would remortgage house and give you easy 80k? Nice. I'd go for it. If it's not loan secured against parents property, it's safer.
You want to prove something? You'd pay for everything yourself?
Have you paid for your flying up until now thanks to your own work?

There will be times when you realise that going 'the easy way' (meant as for flight training itself??) of integrated with all money readied by parents/remortgage can actually pay off. Cost of flight training (modular, so it is, ie more 'base' prices) won't go lower.

Surely, it's good to go to Uni, you're at the age about to decide.
You think you'd get all the dosh required for modular over next few years only from your savings alongside studies? Not sure what your hourly wage would be in your part time job, but mine isn't all that great. OK tips in waiting help.

True, I may need more expensive, rotary training etc, but I do follow and research FW flying as well for my future.

You know, most of 'pilots in the making' would jump at the opportunities you say you have. But reality is it ain't that easy. Some (few or many) years of savings are necessity for most, hence modular.

If you used that stash of money for CPL/ME IR, did some instructing, turboprop, whatever, you wouldn't be in position like some integrated guys who are coming to terms with loan repayment and no flying/well paid/ job - not wanting instructing job etc.

Some would rather not prove their dedication over 4-7 years of part time modular training if they had access to pot of $$. For someone in emigree family settled in the UK you have good opportunities from what you state.

As for SSTR:
I've just read here or elsewhere on net that CSA would take steps towards not sponsoring TR for recruits as there's more and more SSTRed pilots. That leaves lots of space for 'legionnaire' pilots from Western Europe and thus making it super extra harder for local fresh CPLs competing for few occasional vacancies. There's very few CPL openings outside CSA in Czech.

The amount of folks doing SSTR is damaging industry. Unfortunately, it is 'dog eat dog' but is becoming 'hound scoffs poodle'.

CamelhAir

2nd Sep 2008, 15:20

Integrated/modular with 200 hrs? Doesn't matter which way you went, you'll still be so far behind the aeroplane that it's irrelevant how you trained. Get over it.
There is not a single wannabe out there who can assess which method is better, for the simple reason that you do either one or the other, not both. Therefore you have not the knowledge of any alternative to make a comparison.
Only those you fly with can make a (rough) comparison in terms of the finished product and I see no difference.
What you can compare is costs, as WWW does and he makes, in my view, an excellent analysis.

MartinCH, you're right there, SSTR is screwing this profession.

ghost_rider20

2nd Sep 2008, 18:21

It's all tit for tat!! And it really bugs me.

As has already been stated, do your own thing, get on with it and focus on getting what 'YOU' really want!! (don't get too involved in other peoples business).

Each to their own, we are all humans, we are all different.. All this Modular vs. Intergrated is like a bloody war.. I know there are pros and cons with both path's, but some of the post's I have to read and laugh at, very childish for aspiring professional pilots!

Do what make's you happy and persevere, study hard and you will get there eventually! Whether it be flying 'A cargo plane full of rubber dog**** outta hong kong', Air taxi work, flying turboprops, jets, whatever it is! You have to start at the bottom and work your way to the top, and if you get a jet job straight away, then well done and appreciate/enjoy it!

I can't understand people though who turn down any flying job they get offered as it's a start (regardless of money etc, if it's not great, then so what, it's better than no job, surely? Wouldn't you rather be flying, I know what my answer is).

Some people I think definately need to look at the bigger picture.

A couple more points here:

One of my old instructors is a Training Capt for BA...earns a six figure salary each year! He started as an air taxi pilot, did so much other flying stuff too before he started flying jet's.

Another friend whose parent's could have quite easily wrote a cheque out for however much he needed for the training and a type rating told him if he wanted to do it, he would do it and fund it without their financial assistance! He done it, got a loan through HSBC, went to NZ with CTC, he is now a Senior F/O with EJ. :ok:

Good luck to everyone on the long hard road to becoming a commercial pilot.

Lee

CABUS

3rd Sep 2008, 00:22

Well said,:D everyone has it tough at some point, some choose to make a big deal of it and other just get on and keep their eye on the goal. Im the first!!:ok:

Night_fr8

3rd Sep 2008, 12:44

How do they fund SSTR's
The answer in this climate is with difficulty, however if you present a good plan to some bank managers they can still help you raise that cash, usually over a 5 to 7 year payback period.
A RYR cadet I know approached this bank manager after a meeting with a financial advisor and got the loan within 2 working weeks.
He then passed the information on to another cadet who also received the loan, and this was in the current economic climate.
If you already have a bank account which is well run (Not too often into the overdraft) then try you accounts manager at your bank first.

The other route has been the Bank of Mum and Dad, where most families have added the loan to the current mortgage, this is an option but some lenders are cutting back on this added expenditure.
Rich parents who already have the cash are few and far between, but they are out there.

Both the cadets I just mentioned are finished with their training and are flying on full Brookfields contracts, both with the bases they had as first choice.

The doom gloom merchants on here (You know who you are !! ) will have you believe that SSTR's and airlines like Ryanair lower the working conditions for the whole industry, this is a load of "Tosh" as it is in effect a form of self selection.
You have the motivation, are prepared to take the financial risk, have passed selection and have the money available. All of these are required before you get to that SSTR course.
People still fail the course, and that's a big expense, but put in the hard work and dedication and that jet job dream is just around the corner.

Most who "Bleet" that SSTR's are wrong are quite often the ones who are unable to raise the funds or have failed selection.
They believe that if the playing field was level they should have that jet job at no cost to themselves. (Why ? what makes you any different from the rest ?)
There is no such thing as a free type rating, you will end up paying for it somewhere, airlines are not charities, check ppjn for cadet salaries against full F/O rates of pay look at how much difference there is, so indirectly you are paying.

I was lucky in that when I started the type ratings were offered by the employer, however I have paid to get a rating and secure a job in the past.
SSTR's are like the 3rd world, they will always be with us.

conerted_lurker

4th Sep 2008, 11:32

Doesn't a "Full" Brookfield contract allow O' Leary to just stand you down with no flying for months on end? Given the low basic and high flying pay your wage packet shrinks by more than half. Not nice when you have a nice big juicy unsecured loan to keep serviced.

SSTR is a symptom of the credit and housing bubble. The crunch is the cure.

(Though I paid for most of my training through re-mortgaging me house)

stefair

4th Sep 2008, 12:45

night fr8,
Sorry, but totally disagree. The truth is if no rookie was prepared to do SSTR companies would eventually have to pay for it again and that's why people doing it ruin the market and our reputation. And let's face it, if you bring the cash and somewhat motivation you will end up flying a jet. All you need is money, as sad as it is. As conerted_lurker quite rightly put it, by outsourcing its FOs, FR can easily lay people off whenever needed. Admittedly, this is a smart move by O'Leary but at the total expense of his newly hired FOs. Not right and that's why I have a total lack of respect for people doing SSTR and supporting this unrightful practice.

You are also being misguided in saying that there are no companies paying for the TR because they still are out there, e.g. Cityjet, FlyBe to name just a couple. I am sure there also a few GA operators paying at least the better portion of a TR.

I just wonder where this leads to, particularly when it comes to safety?! Because, and let's be honest, as a company, if you knew you as the company would have to pay for a TR would you not look at the applicant very very closely because you would want to invest into the right person? And what would you do, as a company, if you did not have to pay for the TR because the applicant pays for it himself/herself? Exactly, you would not care as much. Because at the end of the day, it's the captain who has the total responsibility over the AC, not the co. I stand to be corrected if this is total bull what I am writing here but I think I am not far off the truth.

Night_fr8

4th Sep 2008, 13:41

stefair
Sorry but you are wrong in two major respects.
1. If people stop paying for type ratings.
There will always be enough new pilots out there willing to pay for that jet
rating so as to get their foot on that ladder.
People can say they support free ratings and will not apply but I am sorry
to say that in reality they will pay to get that coveted position, and say
c..p to the principles of others, its the real world out there not cloud
cuckoo land.

2. Airlines are run by accountants and the bottom line rules, so if they can
and do cut back salaries for cadet pilots, they are taking much less of a
risk financially.
Those with previous jet / turboprop experience are less of a risk to
employers so the next type rating may well be nearly free.

I have been in this career now over many years and know the way the industry is going.
The bottom line rules, and as long as the cadet pilot is shown to be willing to pay for their rating, the accountants will actively encourage recruiters to take that route,
Take Silverjet who advertised for type rated second officers prior to their demise, this was an indication that they wanted pilots to pay their own rating.

I will state again pilots end up paying for their own ratings under the guise or lower initial salaries when recruited at the cadet stage.
Its easy to justify the cost to the board that way.

MartinCh

4th Sep 2008, 20:53

night fr8,

You seem to forget the fact what people moan about is SSTR paid for and done right after CPL/ME IR. Without any job secured. As a "standard prerequisite".
I and surely many others don't find anything rotten about lower salary for couple years (on bond) to indirectly pay for the TR. That way it can also be pre-tax, right? That's how it should be. Not purely free type rating..

Nobody says the playing field would ever be equal.
As if it's not hard enough for most to get enough funding for CPL/fATPL.
This plague of too many folks firing out CVs with SSTR does place quality dedicated fresh CPL to background. Or this UK/Irish wave of SSTR guys possibly threatening smaller aviation markets (where some only ever achieve dreams thanks to towing gliders)

Ghost Rider,
Well, that guy with rich daddies didn't want their cash. How honourable.
I bet he'd keep such high morals and ideals if he wouldn't have been allowed to join CTC scheme and thus securing hefty loan thanks to it. Or no reasonable loan given his circumstances.

I bet he'd happily work away saving all by himself for his own dreams for couple/many years (depending on his income etc). He'd be happy doing modular slowly and after a year or so happy that he didn't go modular when he could have been flying jets or big TPs already (in those days job climate) and rather work extra late shift/giving up holidays and waiting for his usual Cessna treatment on weekend.
OH YEAH.

ALL WE CAN DO IS TO WATCH ENOUGH SSTR GUYS CRASH AND BURN WITH HEFTY LOANS, NOT MANY EASY A320/B737 JOBS FOR THEM NOW. And let the rest take it as warning. PPRuNe with shiny success stories of the minority may not be enough even then. How many of us alway heeded parents warnings and suggestions (not always best but meant with best intent)? That'll stay similar.