Direct Entry Captains

[Call me Skipper]

Hey Guys and girls crossed paths the other day with a very sheepish looking DE Captain ex Oasis. Don't give em the time of day I say !, its the least we can do. These guys don't give a flying left about your position so won't get any small talk from me. Meet downstairs for a beer ?, dream on lowlife.

[broadband circuit]

I second that motion.

[Fly747]

Ex Gmo Ka Dec Lhr

[Feather Boa]

Wooah

What about all the "Good guys" ex KA UK that had their jobs taken when CX took us over.
Dont tar them with the same brush as the ex GMO!

Fx

[BusyB]

"That had their jobs taken"!!!?:confused:
I also find dec lhr difficult to believe but am happy to receive any info.:ok:

[DropKnee]

Do direct entry Captains have to do a PCA. If not isn't that discrimination.

[4 driver]

Of course no PCA for them....still an old boys club. And technically, I believe, they are hired as FO's (for one day, or less); then they get the command slot that "no one else wants".
Of course this only happens if you are in the "club"

[A. Le Rhone]

Whoa...don't go putting the KA guys in with the Oasis guys here.

Dragonair had it's own 747-400s but CX decided to take at least 4 of those 7 aircraft, repaint them in CX colours and force the KA Captains to have to undergo 'rapid-command' courses to once again be able to fly these very same aircraft! Nobody at KA Freight was vaguely interested in transferring to CX before this corporate decision.

Of course the reason CX took this decision with regards to Dragonair was that KA's then GMO and probably the Personnel Dept made a monumental stuff-up of the freighter (and passenger) operation by tring relentlessly to screw pilots out of their T&Cs or stonewalling much-needed improvements. The modus operandii was 'if you don't like it leave': and that's exactly what happenned! To the point where the whole KA operation was evidently becoming unviable.

So now the deposed KA GMO simply flies of home to a DEC in the UK and the rest of the KA pilots are being forced to do command courses simply to fly the very same airframes they have been poling-around for years.

As feather-Boa says, don't ever say any ex-KA Captain is taking anything from anybody at CX. This was all very unwelcome.

[buggaluggs]

The whole thing stinks, and makes a mockery of even having a seniority list! As always they are the first to wave it around when it suits their ends, while at the same time using back door 'work arounds' to shaft the guys waiting for upgrades!!!

" We gave them command positions none of the current crew wanted " Yeah good one, I'm going to give up my house AND take a pay cut to go into the left seat! Gee I wonder why they had empty slots!!

Myself and a lot of the other F/o's are :mad: fuming about it!! I predict they are going to have serious motivation issues with the guys from here on in!! Why bother putting any work in, when there's bound to be ANOTHER shafting waiting just around the corner!

Just makes you want to :yuk:

Buggs out

[Call me Skipper]

Great to see some input and direction from our super cautious - gently does it Union. Gee there's not much we can do about it guys doesn't cut it. F/O's are asking themselves what has this Union done for me, there are alot of guys with the resignation letter pending. Even the girls laugh at us for our lack of b*lls when it comes to dealing with the company. In many eyes the Union has turned into a meek rubber stamp for CX, even apologizing when putting up some opposition. There better be some major changes with ST gone.

[Saturn]

Some time ago. We and the AOA gave up the ship long before this and now we are stuck. We and the AOA are not willing to put up a fight like the girls (and boys) of the F/A union. So we just need to shut up and take it in the tail pipe. I want to thank the AOA and particularly S.T. and J.F. for srewing us. I now know they work for the compnay and NOT the membership.

[Arfur Dent]

Only way you lot will change anything is to leave. Nobody leaves so CX just keep turning the screws. AOA? It's a non-effectual joke and due to the constant whining by the SO/FO lobby, doesn't actually represent anyone. There are 'A' scale Captains in the AOA - do they have to take a pay cut to be represented? Or a demotion? Hundreds of Direct entry Captains and extendees taking all those Commands in the fullness of time. Why? Because Cx feels like it and nobody does a thing - except moan on Pprune. Wow! Scary stuff!!

[Feather Boa]

A L R

Thanks. Exactly what I meant, but it was late and after a few beers couldn't be bothered to explain in detail!

Couldn't even spell Whoa!!!!


Fx

[BusyB]

Dragonair had 2 B744's, CX leased them a further 2 but they only had crews to fly 3 in all so instead of a further 2 (numbers 5 and 6) the whole arrangement was reviewed ending up as it is now.:ok:

[Call me Skipper]

Siberfuchs I have to disagree with you on the fact that Oasis/K.A or re-joiners (G.O. can you believe he's here again, almost beyond a joke) are blameless. It's a question of morals and those guys know very well they are shafting you and I. Keep it simple.

It's a sad day when our last vestige is pprune, not the AOA, and I know I'm preaching to the converted but guys spread the word to your more relaxed collegues, don't be Mr nice guy at dispatch, let these guys know we are not fools and they are un-welcome to say the least. Who did I fly for before CX - none of your bussiness mate.

[Humber10]

The AOA should put a vote to the membership for action and take action. This affects all, not just those awaiting command upgrades.

I'll make my thoughts known to the AOA, how many of you are willing to do the same....

I hear guys all the time, complaining on pprune or at the pub, but they cant be asked to take a simple of step of letting the AOA know what they want.

Seniority list, what a joke.... I hope youre all working to rule.

[Call me Skipper]

Humber10 I am with you on that and I too will let the AOA know in writing (a quick 2 min yap on the phone does nothing) that I want some reaction. It's make or break time for me, this is the reason we are part of the Union, not for monthly updates on my income protection.

[BusyB]

Its already being looked at by the GC:ok:

[parabellum]

Call me Skipper - Dare I offer you a little bit of advice? (37 years in professional aviation). If I met you at dispatch and you showed signs of the hostility you suggest I would off-load you, shortage or no, one simply doesn't take that kind of **** into the air or down route, it is a flight safety hazard.
It doesn't matter how right you may be and how wrong they may be you must still remain professional and sort your grievance out with those that caused it or allowed it to happen. Your resignation won't bother CX one bit, they will still be there when you retire and your current approach is setting you up for the sack anyway. One day you may be looking for a DEC job yourself, don't answer now but when you have to make the decision, will you turn it down on moral or ethical grounds?
Blast away here on PPRuNe, of course, that is what it is for but be very careful about taking a bad attitude to work, you immediately put yourself in the wrong.
Just advice, that is all.:ok:

[Call me Skipper]

Parabellum thanks for the good advice, I hope all reading this thread will keep it professional but curt at work. By the way I have met with some pretty hostile, unprofessional attitudes from the left over the years, but that's ok isn't it (no I didn't bring it upon myself, I did make the effort).

[treboryelk]

hit the nail on the head there retread7......i have heard many complain about how those taking ASL positions in the 90's delayed command by years and that they should have morally done the right thing. have to admit, if there was a job available and i needed to provide for the wife and kids, i would take the job rather than think "oh my, let me lose my entire livelihood so someone else can get a command".

these guys are taking the jobs because the system lets them.

personally i think it sucks. DEC's delays those cat A'd for the freighter....that in turn delays passenger 400 commands...the whole thing has ground to a stagnant halt for the FO's and SO's. but come on guys, there might be a few oddballs in those new recruits, which we suffer day to day anyway in CX, but cx is to blame for this mess not them.

a simple question to answer.....would you refuse to take a job offered to you by one of the few airlines in this planet that can ride the storms, and hence stick those $'s in your bank account every 26th of the month, just so that your mortgage and livelihood falls apart for the good of those awaiting command. we can ponitificate, call moral high ground, but we all know the resounding answer from all of us is NO WE WOULDN't

[trevfly]

First it was 40 Oasis guys, now the Dragonair invasion commences! With around 40-45 KA skippers been given direct left seat upgrades, it seems there is no amount of free upgrades on offer in CX.

We are grateful of course, thanks, but I guess it won’t be too difficult, as most the line training will be with KA, with a rubber stamp by some compliant trainer to get our guys across with minimal disruption.

Seems the companies thought through everything, by keeping the line training away from some of those over zealous Cathay choppers, we should see our rightful B744 commands in a relative peaceful manner (yes they were stolen by CX ).

Bye bye KA, was a nice trip, but hey I couldn’t stand the fact I was stuck on the classic for so long, while others have taken my seat on an aircraft based in my country. It all sucks, but at least I will be a 744 Captain, I will have to thank CX for at least something! And I can give those Cx arrogant 3 bar types a hard time….:}

[ACMS]

Yep, ignored them in the BKK hotel bar last week.
Bloody disgusting, some of these people should get a life and stop helping to screw ours. They sucked the CX tit dry over the last 25 years and now don't need the money so can work for true peanuts.

SHAME SHAME SHAME


Amazing some of the "old faces" I see in flt disp lately.:=


I hope the AOA say something soon?

[BusyB]

ACMS,

I bet they were heartbroken that you ignored them:}

[4 driver]

Why does a former 20-25 year "A" scaler need to take such poor COS and work again?
Get a fishing rod and some golf clubs....

[discoveryman]

A divorce :confused:

[buggaluggs]

Because they can't handle spending time with their wives!! :oh:

[Arfur Dent]

Forced retirement at 55 is now illegal in most states. It is discriminatory and against the law in most of the modern world. Why? Because it's too young to stop work. This situation is just CX trying to modernise and keep up with current practice.
I do agree that extensions should be offered in HKG only or another 'slot' on the base of the extendee should be created to stop blocking popular bases. That situation is something the AOA should address.

[ACMS]

I don't have a problem with these guys wanting to keep flying for CX. I would actually like to see most of them stick around.

BUT..............1/...I don't like them accepting rubbish pay, well below what we accept to do it. WAY WAY below. They can accept this pay because they have a sizeable PF sitting in the bank and some already own apartments in HKG and don't need any housing allowance.

In short this is POCKET MONEY for them, CHUMP CHANGE

.....................2/ rapid commands out of seniority are NOT ON. And don't tell me that none of our junior crew want or could take the positions. That's a convenient excuse they all make whan asked why they took a rapid command.
Of course the junior crew don't want the upgrade considering what CX would pay them, why would they:D

TIME for the AOA to take a stand..

[BlunderBus]

there are hundreds of direct entry f/o's who don't give a crap about the s/o's who got shafted and even more freighter crew(including capts)that didn't give a hoot about anyone already at cx when they took a job....wake up and sniff yourselves
:oh:

[icanfly2]

It is time that we stop getting shafted by these DEFO's and Rapid Commanders. I say they are barred from joining the AOA, their acceptance of offered employment terms and conditions is and will continue to be detrimental to our case and future negotiations.

The "Oasis" recruits who have really :mad: it all up are people who don't even want to be working at Cathay, so pack up and piss off. If the management think that they will be hanging around for the long haul forget these guys just want income while they tidy up affairs in HKG and move on I mean it would have to be a short term thing if you agree to work under those conditions. I love that fact that all us other employees sit there with reasonably stable rosters, very nice housing allowances bigger than their salaries!! They obviuosly have no self respect or just like the backdoor.

Further to barring them from joining the AOA it is time that the union stood up faced the music and represented the group, we don't need massive number we simply just negotiate for ourselves and AOA members only (non union on your own and no free riding). Then the numbers will come flooding back especially when the company only gives payrises and better conditions to approx 60% of the workforce. This decreases the company expenses by not having to paying out to everyone and it is not really a problem cause there is so many CoS pay scales out there anyway!

One can hope!

[ACMS]

Oh we're awake mate.

If everybody was in the Union we would NOT BE TALKING ABOUT THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

It's a defeatest attitudes like this that cause the problem.

"the AOA is useless, so I'll save my money"

The AOA is useless BECAUSE of selfish self serving attitudes like this.

[MACH.88]

ACMS

I'll second that!!

MACH.88:cool:

[badairsucker]

guys,

Even with 100% membership, do you really think you'll get anywhere with the current AOA leaders? ST and chums are the reason I have not joined yet and even with a 100% membership ST will remain in the company pocket and a real waste of space.. When the AOA start acting like a union I will be the first to join.



Please feel free to attack my view and comment but that is the truth of the matter.


Ducking for cover now...............

[Liam Gallagher]

Ready - fire - aim

[ACMS]

just yet ANOTHER pathetic excuse.

Stop letting other people do your dirty work mate and JOIN THE BLOODY UNION.

[MACH.88]

ST et all have now left the building. The AOA is under new leadership.

MACH.88:cool:

[badairsucker]

just yet ANOTHER pathetic excuse.



No ACMS, my view on the subject. Grow up and let others put their opinion across without the little rants you like to throw. I want to join a strong union with strong leadership who could improve our conditions etc but with people like your militant self it's no wonder people stay away.



Just a thought, if you were a member of say a gym or golf club and the service was well below par and you were not getting what you were promised, would you continue to pay your monthly dues?

[The Messiah]

if you were a member of say a gym or golf club and the service was well below par and you were not getting what you were promised, would you continue to pay your monthly dues?
No I would quit and never play golf there again, but this aint a golf club.

If the cost of less than one night out in LKF is too much for you then contact the AOA and they will help you out I'm sure. If you are comparing the AOA to a golf club or a gym then you are very confused and I suggest that you don't use that analogy when you go to Mr Rhodes to negotiate your next contract. But good luck.

When the AOA start acting like a union I will be the first to join.
But you were happy enough with the contract the AOA negotiated for you that you joined CX but you won't join the AOA? Good one.

[popodom]

Have ANY of these Oasis DE CAPT or KA capts done a PCA...I think NOT !!!:=
:= := := := := :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[The Messiah]

Yeah good answer:rolleyes:

[A. Le Rhone]

vermin/popodom...your lack of awareness of your subject should be rectified before you mouth-off on PPRuNe.

You seem to miss one vital point. The KA Captains ALREADY ARE CAPTAINS. Many for years/decades even. Is there something you don't understand here? 'Have any of the KA Captains done a PCA?' Get real please. Many have been operating PCA/PCE in sims as TIRE's for years.

CX are painting KA aircraft in CX colours, some of the very same airframes these CAPTAINS are already flying at Dragonair. The only reason they have to go through this rapid command nonsense is to appease the AOA.

So just to speall it out very clearly. The KA pilots are bringing their own aircraft with them. There aren't enough KA pilots to fly these aircraft so CX pilots will get to fly these aircraft too, in addition to their existing fleet. Extra aircraft means more promotion for eager FO's. Eager FO's who hopefully do their homework before mouthing-off on PPRune.

[The Messiah]

So just to speall it out very clearly
Sorry just couldn't resisit that one.

[fire wall]

A. Le Rhone, it seems you are the one who is confused .
CX bought KA.
It was not a merger
It was a take over
The a/c as a result are owned by cx.
Some may be painted with the red worm however that bears no weight as to whose a/c they are.
As a result of the TAKE OVER ka pilots start at the bottom of the seniority list.
We are "supposedly" seniority based airline, awarding commands on seniority once suitabilty hurdles have been cleared.
Commands posted ex MAN have been given to ex ka pilots before suitably qualified cx pilots as they have been told to wait later for a course date as all courses are full to allow ka crews to be trained on CX A/C.
As a result you now have commands out of seniority
By way of compensation CX f/o's who have had courses delayed shoiuld be given bypass pay. Note the word "should". It has yet to come to pass that they see an increase in the monthly stipend.

You can put any slant on it you like but this it the REAL state of play.

[ACMS]

All I see are excuses..............................


Yeah yeah yeah.

SELFISH TWATS.

[Arfur Dent]

All I see is a lot of FO's and SO's complaining that the world has pulled the rug from under them!
Perhaps they should all band together and call themselves the Aircrew Officers Association.
They could bring the Managers to their knees couldn't they if they all spoke with one voice?
Of course, When you got your Command, you'd have to leave the association (AOA) because it didn't represent you any more........

[BusyB]

A.L.R
If you look at it more dispassionately you would realise that to fly with CX crew members there has to be an assessment as to whether they operate to exactly the same procedures.:ok:

[kingoftheslipstream]

At least we didn't get too many of those Oasis folks at EK! :}

[Saturn]

OK, NO MORE! Nothing against anyone. But you should be an F/O or S/O when you join off the street. This is just unacceptable. Please let your fleet managers and GMA and GMO and DFO that is is wrong and unacceptable.:mad:

[Very Tired]

Firewall, your arrogance is astonishing. Allow me to quote from the IFALPA Industrial manual that deals with merger processes.



The objective of Member Associations when faced with merger situations should be to emerge with a single pilot group that is unified in order to be effective in future collective bargaining with the employer. To achieve this objective, all parties have to have been treated fairly; otherwise the enlarged pilot group will suffer from the consequences of damaging internal splits and divisions that will last for a generation.


The principles to be followed shall therefore be:


To preserve jobs
To avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other
To maintain or improve pre-merger pay, conditions and status
To minimize detrimental changes to career expectations
To maintain the relative pre-merger seniority positions of pilots within constituent companies


Jumping up and down like a 5 year old with big statements such "this is a takeover not a merger" as if it was you that actually carried out the takeover simply makes you look pathetic. You're just a number on a seniority list that happens to be bigger than our list. It also displays a complete inability to look further in to the future than the next 5 minutes - again just like my 5 year old child!

ALR has tried, it appears in vain, to explain in simple terms the shafting that KA pilots are getting. We do not want to come to CX and give up years of seniority. We were quite happy with our own operation in Dragonair, particularly after our recent 20% pay rise. (Incidentally it would be nice if you could acknowledge the increase in CX freighter salaries was due to us!) How many times do we need to say this before you hear it? :ugh:

Takeover and merger history is littered with disasters precisely because of attitudes like yours. What is needed is an acknowledgement on both sides that there are concerns to the career aspirations of both groups and work towards a mutually acceptable solution. Imposing one arrogant solution on what is perceived to be the 'weaker' group can only lead to resentment, anger and long term divisiveness that harms both groups. Just take a look at the AOA's own recent history, do you really need yet another divided group or would your interests be better served by acknowledging that it is management that created the problem and not us?

KA pilots are happy to work with our new colleagues in CX and are well aware that there are sensitivities over our employment. We ask that you extend us the same courtesy.

[filejw]

Firewall, I think you will find in most cases when an airline either takes over or merges with an airline including operational routes and A/C the pilots are merged into the acquiring airlines seniority list. Anything else is pure greed on your part.

[cpdude]

filejw, I'm not saying I don't agree with you but I know a few AC and ex-CPA crews that would feel otherwise. For those that don't know...that's the Air Canada/Canadian (Pacific) Airlines merger/takeover.:bored:

[A. Le Rhone]

No, no...I've got a better idea. Because "We" at Cathay took over Dragonair (just as when the Imperial Army marched through the streets of Central in 1941), all Dragonair Captains should be made FO's and all Cathay FO's and SO's should automatically be given those positions.

It's the way of life and it's only fair really.

[fire wall]

Very Tired, arrogance doesn't live in this cupboard.
I would have expected you to recognise the factual comment "takeover not merger" was made by very senior manager cx directly involved. You didn't. As a result, you can sprout all kinds of IFALPA manuals pertaining to merger conduct but they bear no relevance. You ask for sensitivity and a caring response to KA crews. I have no problem with that. I also do not have a problem calling a spade a spade.
I note no response from you re the cx cat A fo's who have had their commands delayed as a result. Where is the caring response?
Nowhere have I put forward that this is a situation of KA's doing yet you assert such.
As for KA being responsible for cx freight guys getting payrise - although not involved I find your assertion amusing.
Finally, let's leave your 5 year old out of the discussion. Try a mature response. I am sure he will appreciate the courtesy.

Filejw, your statement greed on my behalf bears no weight. I am not affected as have already jumped the hurdle. My colleagues however are directly affected and disadvantaged but this fact is missing in both your's and Very tired's arguement.

[A. Le Rhone]

...rriigghhtt Fire wall..we must call a spade a spade. We must never forget it was a TAKEOVER, (with which we used our own funds from our monthly paypackets). I think we should march all of those KA pilots off to the Stanley detention camp. Any who dare question the might of the Imperial Army should simply be shot at dawn.

How dare they complain about us assuming control of their aircraft, repainting them and forcing existing Captains to undergo Captain training!

[fire wall]

ALR, try taking off the blinkers and read the post. When you have done so then post an intelligent response otherwise your missives are just noise.

[Very Tired]

Firewall, I'm sorry to say that in your post that I responded to I didn't see any quotes around the phrase , "This is a takeover not a merger" so it would not be unreasonable to attribute that statement to you. I would be very happy to hear you say that you disagree wholeheartedly with such comments. :ok:

Yes I am sympathetic to Cat A FOs that may have their command courses delayed. I am not entirely sure what the exact situation is with these pilots but I'm sure that the reality is far different to some of the wilder statements made here. Bear in mind that KA Captains are not taking any precious CX slots, we are simply filling the slots on aircraft that we already operate. The backlog and delays for command ready FOs is presumably due to training backlogs.

You also might like to spare a thought for KA FOs, many of whom were on the cusp of a command slot in KA and now have to join the back of the pile in CX, ie they are now years away. This isn't a statement on the rights and wrongs, just asking you to consider that everyone is affected by this in some way. No one group has the monopoly on perceived disadvantage.

Finally, the recent pay rise awarded to KA pilots left us with a far superior package to that enjoyed by CX freighter pilots. During the whole debacle that passed for negotiations about the transfer (oops, opportunity) one of the counters to the TUPE argument was for CX management to increase the package on offer to something a bit closer to our KA salary. (It's actually still a pay cut for most of us). Tell me, when was the last time CX management awarded a non-negotiated pay rise out of the blue? Perhaps they were just feeling a bit generous that week?

Firewall, you are not my enemy, as I am not yours. The only way for all of us to improve our lot is to recognise that these situations are created by a management team that thrives on our division. As the new AOA president has said, we must unite behind the union and show some strength of purpose. It worked at KA, there's no reason for it not to work in CX.

[Loopdeloop]

VT
In line with your last paragraph, might I suggest that the DPA write to all those KA pilots who've chosen to take up this fantastic "opportunity" to encourage them to join the HKAOA?

[Very Tired]

It's already been done Loop. The DPA has been very proactive about ensuring a seamless transfer between the two unions. FWIW, the AOA and DPA have had a good working relationship over the last year. There are obviously some areas of difference but both sides have recognised the need to work together.

[VR-HFX]

Firewall

I suspect you have not been in and around HK for a long time.

CX and KA have for the bulk of the life of KA been sister companies. Anyone who is against the KA seniority system being melded with the CX seniority system on a date of joining is straight out of Oliver Twist.

It is time for everyone to focus on the the things that unite us rather than the things that differentiate us.

Life is too short to do otherwise.

[Liam Gallagher]

ASL has been a "Sister Company" for the bulk (ie all) of its life as well. Should the ASL guys be DOJ as well?

Not suggesting it .... just asking the question for the sake of consistency of thought....:E

[fingus]

seems like alot of cx pilots are so uptight with being overtaken in a position they might not be ready for. i mean if u started with cx as an S/O, and before joining you flew small turboprops...i think you should know your place. If you have jet time, in a similar a/c which you are applying for, then you just cant compare to a pilot flying turboprops or single engine a/c's. Seriously......cant compare.......... :P

can u really say an S/O flying for 3 years on a 330 would be more proficient in flying the a/c rather than a capt or f/o on a 320???

i could just be stirring up stuff.......:D:D:D

[yokebearer]

The above is a stupendously stupid comment.

Many SO's joined with lots of jet and command time. There are SO's with more jet time than the DFO's being hired.

Either way - previous experience has nothing to do with seniority.

[Humber10]

Anyone with such comments must be lacking confidence in their own ability.... If you had been through the CX process, then you would understand, it doesnt matter which type you came off. There's no pissing contest around here.
From your comments, I take it your first type flown was the space shuttle. Good luck to you!

[fire wall]

HFX , wrong again.
Might help if you stop trying to pidgeon hole.
If you have something sensible to say then come out and say it.
Melded seniority? Very funny.

Fingus, we have B777 trng captain ex Emirates who joined as an S/O. Does that invalidate your arguement? Then again, you could just be stirring up stuff.

[Riu]

we have B777 trng captain ex Emirates who joined as an S/O.

a B777 training captain who joined as S/O?? I will have to see him to believe that, or they were going to cut his balls back in the UAE.

How long would he be S/O he is going to pass through the whole career once again? If this is true i guess he had a VERY valid reason to do it

[Loopdeloop]

I guess some people just don't like the desert!

[Cpt. Underpants]

The ex-EK 777 TC did join as an s/o, then "quit" to rejoin as a DE-F/O on an Oz base.

[fingus]

i feel so sorry for you fellas........ why your heads are so far up where the sun dont shine, i see why!:confused:

i agree with riu!!! b777 skipper moving as SO??? mate, give us breaK!!! unreal!!!! i can understand going for an FO position.

humber10.....lacking in confidence???......maybe mate, maybe.......(hehehe)

yokebearer.......think twice!:eek:

i do understand what seniority is all about folks......

but again....im just stirring up stuff.
:p

[jetset]

340 not 777 TC for the record but this thread sure has degenerated...

:ugh::{

[Apple Tree Yard]

....i weep for the future....:{

[VR-HFX]

Apple Tree...spot on.

Firewall...so the status quo is the way to go? Just sit by and watch the company continue to divide and conquer at will and do what it wants with basings and RA65. Your reference to pigeons and holes went by me I am afraid. Perhaps you would like to spell out your argument.

Liam, good point. On balance, I would think it would also be a good thing for the pilot body.

[fire wall]

HFX, at what point did I state that the status quo is acceptable?
Again, re read the post and then author something sensible instead of trying to railroad the arguement in a direction which I for one am not advocating.
Pidgeon holes, devote some grey matter to it.
More noise.

[Liam Gallagher]

So that's 80 ASL pilots and I'm guessing about 200 KA pilots (being the ones that joined before 1 Jan 2000) that are immediately senior to over half the CX pilot body... see no problems there... two points...

1. I bet a business class aminety kit (that I didn't take last week;)) HFX joined before 1 Jan 2000.

2. When the ASL and KA pilots joined their respective companies what were their expectations. Did they expect to be in the left seat of a CX Aircraft and/or a CX base? How were their initial expectations unduly affected by the Takeover/Merger/Integration/ Meld?

[Fly747]

Liam, KA pilot's expectations were to have a career in KA until retirement. I am now part of the CX group and expect to continue there for a long time there. For those transferring to CX along with "their" aircraft it is not unreasonable to retain command on those aircraft. Two CX 330s are being transferred to KA, maybe the first of many depending on how the current crisis plays out with regards to ac type and Group route structure. If some CX pilots could look at the bigger picture they would realise that a combined seniority would open up bidding opportunities for a different type of work on a KA 320/330s and maybe quicker command for some. A few would lose out, but on the whole I believe that there would be a greater benefit for the majority.
Keep us divided and guess who wins?

[jetset]

Anyone who honestly thinks there will be a combined seniority list is dreaming.

You are ignoring history. Wake up and smell the pollution!

:ugh:

[VR-HFX]

Liam

You win, but I don't see how that makes me the chicken instead of the pig when it comes to breakfast.

One of the old striped jobbies OK, as I only have a few of the 'bon voyage' units? Black, blue or pink stripes? Could also throw in a Shanghai Tang PJ set (slightly used).

I am simply making the point that a single list would be a first move to create some unity in the pilot body. This must have a positive effect on medium-term negotiating power.

Reaching a single contract standard for all would take a lot longer.

I can see how RA65, 3ULH and DEC's increase time to command but could someone show me how a single list would do likewise?

[Follow the Follow Me]

Anyone who honestly thinks there will be a combined seniority list is dreaming.

I have no idea why KA pilots would want to integrate with the CX group. CX pilots are a poisoned chalice- have a re-read of some of the clowns in the posts above!

THe DPA shouldn't be talking to the AOA either.

Too much to lose when you break it all down.

[simplex]

ST et all have now left the building. The AOA is under new leadership.

Negative MACH.88:cool: Weatherilt is taking Turner in there negotiating some more of your conditions of service away as we speak. Same team - chairs rearranged. Disappointing.

[fire wall]

Not entirely correct simplex.

[Humber10]

what conditions?? Giving away/reducing bypass terms for age 65....?
It would be nice if the membership were actualy told what we were negotiating, instead of finding out when the deal is done...

[trevfly]

Lets not forget that ALL KA Freighter pilots had the choice to remain in KA and take command slots in KA. The F/Os have not been shafted as it was their choice to go to CX. Some are on better pay than their counterparts in KA due the CX F/O payscales for SFO.

As for the right of current KA freighter pilots to remain Capt because the aircraft are moving is fallacy. None of the current crop of KA classic skippers would be LHS were the ka freighters be based in HK, Now they want to sidestep their relative low ka seniority to get a B744 command in CX.

How many KA FCS guys made the slightest effort to remain in ka? Very few, the rest simply folded and signed accross.And lets no forget how many were in the DPA? They were happy for the pay rise negotiated last year of course.

Good luck, its great to shot of them.

Why will they find it tougher in CX? They will always be outsiders, see as taking the easy way to command, and never paying their dues.

[5 Greens]

Trevfly,

You are bang out of order:= Some of us have been in KA since 01/02 & if we chose to move Airbus HKG, you guys would have been down graded or been made redundent!
For those of us moving to HKG was Not an option we were left with One choice. All Ka 744s will eventually become Cx sooner than later.:mad:

[trevfly]

We have a redundancy list indeed, and you my friend are certainly not going to displace me or my collegues :D ... 2002 and that makes you senior haha, nuff said!

Interesting that the FCS FOs got commands out of seniority (many HK based guys would have loved to, but were unable due base/nationality), and very quickly, about 18 months as I remember.Nice for those lucky few.

Now you are all dashing off to CX to grab more commands out of seniority.

Nice honest guys eh?

[Very Tired]

As an FCS pilot that has been a member of the DPA for 6 years (since joining) I find your comments particularly offensive.

Redundancy. Indeed it is on DOJ, the last time I checked the seniority list there were 250 names behind me. At least 175 of those would be Airbus pilots, so yes, if the company wanted to make the freighter fleet redundant some Airbus pilots would be in the firing line a long time before me and many of my FCS colleagues.

Command out of seniority. Where on earth did you dig this little nugget up from? All commands were awarded in strict seniority. If you didn't have the right to work in the UK that's tough, the same as I can't apply for a job in Australia or Canada. I don't whinge about it, it's a fact of life.

Your comments display an astonishing lack of knowledge about the situation with KA freighters and the reaming that we've had from our new masters. You may have a point about the low DPA membership rate (something that has always irked me) but when we're on the receiving end of the type of rubbish that you've just spouted, can you blame us?


Nice honest guys eh?


And if you have the balls to call me dishonest to my face, I'll be very happy to discuss it with you over a beer in HKG - just PM me. :*

[twenty]

Dear very tired

your lack of sympathy is astonishing.

Yes if there was redundancy you would displace a number of Airbus pilots, many of them Captains.
Yes you did get your command, somehow, when you seniority number allowed and nobody with a higher seniority bid for the position.
Yes you are British and strangely have the right of abode in the UK.
No you would not be able to work in Australia.
Yes if you had decided to remain in HKG you would have got a command to the detriment of a HKG based F/O.
No it does not matter that you have been a DPA member since joining KA.
And so what if you accept your lot with good grace.
You just don't get the point!

Just lose your life and then you would have time to post on PPrune about everything and anything.

If you go to CX why should that upset anyone in KA. Good luck.

[Free Flight]

Hey Fire Wall - I heard the same thing about ST being on the negotiations team. Does anyone know what the truth is - don't suppose the ever so transparent AOA would tell us, would they?
FF

[trevfly]

The KA frieighter was supose to be a HK operation. None of the current crop of bailers would have come close to a command. Period. They are privilaged simply cos of the base. Oh and Ex the british RAFmay ave elped.

They now move to a CX MAN base, and take their commands, screwing the future CX upgraders.

And who is on the 1st course?

The DPA freighter rep! My god its happened again, the DPA rep has lined his own pockets. And the biggest kick in the teeth? He's on the first KA-CX direct entry command course. The first course, after recommending all KA pilots to remove "resign from KA " in their CX contracts.Obviously he didnt.

Good he stood firm eh? Typical, blooody typical.

Wonder if his loyalty will be to hs new employer, the AOA or his selfish self? I think we all can guess this one.

[parabellum]

trevfly I have no idea how accurate your comments are but it is time you learned that when the need arises pilots will eat their own young.

[trevfly]

Very accurate.

Im bitter as I towed the line,as advised by the DPA rep, stayed HK based on t'Bus, to find these command opportunists screwing the whole operation, then bail to CX. What a joke.

[Fly747]

I notice in the news letter that a certain Capt G.O. has been awarded his 4 bars, congratulations.

I then wondered how many bars these DECs from Oasis or KA wear during the rapid command course. Are they really DECs and wear 4 or is it only 3 for the course? I'm sure it won't have bothered G.O. but some KA egos might not take the strain!

By the way Trev to be fair to the DPA rep he was next inline for a course be it a KA or CX one.

[Loopdeloop]

You're displaying a dangerous level of knowledge here!
Said DPA rep did remove the words from his paperwork but, sadly for them, he was in a minority. Had they all done it, or at least more than the dozen or so that did, then you'd really be squealing now. The result would probably have been a short court case which would probably have found that the merging of the KA freighters into our own fleet was in fact a "Takeover" and thus should come under UK TUPE legislation.

So, why would you be squealing about that?
It would mean that not only would they be coming over as direct entry captains but they'd keep "DoJ" seniority!

Have a chat with any of the AOA reps involved with the negotiation and you'll probably find they have the same story.

[Very Tired]

Trevfly,

If you want to find out the facts instead of the crap that you're spouting then I suggest that you call the former DPA rep to discuss, Linda will be happy to give you the number - that is if you're a member! As usual, half a story.....:ugh:

[joebanana]

Trevfly, remember this?

I have been advised that the arrangements described in the documents I have been sent by the company including the document entitled “Background to the Decision with Regard to the Future for the Dragonair Freighters from the CEO” and the question and answer document sent by Mike Kitney, constitute a transfer under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE) and that by operation of TUPE my current contract of employment will not terminate but will be transferred to Cathay Pacific Airways Limited with the terms and conditions unaltered. Accordingly I now place on record that I do not object to the transfer of my employment to Cathay Pacific Airways Limited but that I am not resigning from my current employment because my employment will transfer to Cathay Pacific Airways Limited in any event.

and

I am resigning my employment with Dragonair Ltd only because I have been pressurised to do so and because my employer has made express representations that:

(i) my continued employment with Dragonair Limited is at risk;
(ii) Cathay Pacific will not absorb the surplus Dragonair operation once the Dragonair fleet is reduced to three B744 aircraft.

The second of those representations has been made for the first time on 12th March 2008. I trust that that representation derives from Cathay Pacific which knows and intends that it shall be passed on to me. The deadline for acceptance of employment with Cathay Pacific is 14th March 2008. Given the time available, I have been given insufficient time to explore what Cathay Pacific means by it.

I suspect and believe that my employment is in fact to be transferred to Cathay Pacific and I am being pressurised to resign so as to enable Dragonair Ltd and Cathay Pacific to avoid their obligations to me under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006. I consider further that my employer is in breach of its obligation to me under the implied term of trust and confidence within my contract of employment.

In order to mitigate my losses and in reliance on the representations set out above, I accept the offer of employment with Cathay Pacific, but I do so without prejudice to my claim that my employment is in fact to be transferred and that I retain my original terms and conditions of employment with Dragonair Limited.


That was the advice given to all UK based pilots (TUPE only applies in the UK and not HKG).

Why are you now bleating about the 7 year FCS operation that has been accepted by all as a part of Dragonair? I certainly didn't hear any whingeing from you in the last few years.

Krone, what are you smoking?

The freighter option was an easy command in KA......Would these guys have made it so easily in KA HK

Many guys did go to HKG and made a great success of it. The same as many HKG airbus pilots came to the Classic and made a success of their time on 747. There is no 'easy ride' in KA, just a standard to reach no matter what fleet you are on.

I'm astonished and saddened by the vitriol being directed at pilots in the same company, particularly those who have worked tirelessly to improve the lot of all, when they are simply trying to salvage some sort of career from the wreckage of Cathay's actions.

[twenty]

The company must love you two.

Two heroes! Thousands and thousands of wide body command hours, I don't think so, and experience coming out of your ears.
Yet all you can do is snipe at others in your own company with absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. That is exactly how the workforce gets divided and conquered, and don't tell me that you supported the freighter fleet.

krone
''The freighter option was an easy command in KA, few if any failures in the early years. HEY, Would these guys have made it so easily in KA HK?. Those that have come accross find it a different culture for sure. Those who failed here, moved over there.''
Obviously not a trainer then Krone, maybe you think you are, because the idea of giving a command course is not to fail the guy it is to facilitate his passing.

trevfly
''The KA frieighter was supose to be a HK operation. None of the current crop of bailers would have come close to a command. Period. They are privilaged simply cos of the base. Oh and Ex the british RAFmay ave elped.''

The company decided to base the a/c in the UK. The company decided to buy in experienced crews. The company decided period. If you have a problem not being English then that is your chip. If you have a problem with the company then take it out on the company and stop being a sheila.

The DPA rep is in Hong Kong and would love to meet you, why don't you say hello you might learn something.

[GWN type]

Will you children ever stop whining? If you haven't the balls to stick together and look out each other you deserve the crap your immoral "managers" will shove down your skinny necks forever. Just accept it. You will eventually leave cx bitter, hating the industry and blaming everyone but yourselves. I thought flying was supposed to be fun.

[Humber10]

from what I have seen, it is dog eat dog, and there are a bunch of gutless wonders in this company. There is alot of talk, but no one backs themselves up....

Recipie to be happy is to accept that you are going to be screwed over, just go to work, do what you have to do, go home put it all aside and be happy with life out of work.

OR

Otherwise get a job you enjoy.....

Simple, if you are asking yourself questions if you should be here or not, it is time to ask assess your situation and make yourself happier.....

It's not rocket science....

[trevfly]

"The DPA rep is in Hong Kong and would love to meet you"

Err I'mlove too but the DA rep signed up to join CX (outta seniority) as of 1st Julyand is now a Cx employee, ex Ka and ex DPA.

Now has he joined the AOA...hmmm...thought not. Have any of the post July 1st bailers shown any interest in the AOA? Seems unlikly given the history of many of these guys with showing soldarity for anything but their wallets.

[joebanana]

Trev, yet again you talk bo11ocks.

Check with the AOA to see if the first 2 exKA pilots have applied - you might be surprised. I await your retraction.

As for seniority about joining CX. The seniority date is 1st July and all KA pilots were put on the list in KA current seniority order. Nobody had any choice about when they were doing courses, it was dictated by CX and their training resources. Again you might like to check with KA management about the veracity of my statement. I await your second retraction.

I really have no idea what your problem is. Time and again you have made random (incorrect) statements about various people that have been caught up in CX's politics. It seems that your ire is reserved for those who simply want to continue in a career based in UK flying the same aeroplanes they have done for the last 7 years rather than subject their kids to the filthy HK atmsophere. I would suggest that your misguided anger needs to be redirected towards the managers that either instigated this policy or allowed it to happen.

You could even try actually talking to some of the FCS pilots affected to find out the real story, but then that probably wouldn't fit into your version of reality would it?

[twenty]

Hey Joe

too dangerous, face to face, much better the anonymous sniping!

[MACH.88]

WTF!!

MACH.88:cool:

[Loopdeloop]

Hi Trev
I guess you didn't receive the membership update from the AOA dated 18 Aug 08. The guy you're slagging has his name on it as as he's recently applied to join. Of course you're welcome to write to the AOA to suggest a good reason not to have him on board, but I don't think you'll achieve much!
I don't agree with the personal attacks that are often seen on this forum but you are beginning to look like a bit of a plonker!
It doesn't take much effort to research the facts in matters such as this and whilst I'm on the subject, I'd humbly suggest to Vermin that he checks the list of C&Ters against the HKAOA list of members. There are of course some notable exceptions, but the check and training group are quite well represented.