The end of the J-visa.

[Gordy]

Here (http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/080717visa.html)

Work-study visas for flight students set to end
By AOPA ePublishing staff

The U.S. Department of State has issued a statement of policy announcing its intent to end a program that allows foreign flight students to work while they study in the United States.

The J-1 visa program, which is slated to end in June 2010, offers foreign students a two-year visa to go through flight training and work as flight instructors to build flying time. Other training options will still exist, such as the F-1 student and M-1 vocational student visa, although neither allows the student to work.

Currently, eight U.S. flight schools train as many as 700 students each year using the J-1 visa program. Those schools estimate that their revenue could be cut in half if the program is ended.

“While this only impacts a small number of students, we are deeply disappointed that the State Department believes that flight training programs no longer further the public diplomacy mission of the United States,” said Craig Spence, AOPA vice president of aviation security “This country has long been a world leader in flight training, and we want to see that continue.”

Many foreign students want to train in the United States where costs are lower and access to training is more broadly available than in Europe and elsewhere. AOPA will be working with other aviation groups and the Small Business Administration to preserve, and hopefully expand, this training option.

[LeakyLucy]

:ok: Fantastic news for Americans ! :D

[funfinn2000]

Well Leaky Lucy, please explain how it is good news for Americans, for the rest of us Humans

[Troglodita]

Apart from US Nationals who gain CPL's not having 700 foreigners to compete with for "Flight Instructor" jobs - I can't fathom out Lucy either:ugh:

The inverted commas around FI were intentional - someone else out there tell me that taking a student who gains their CPL just before lunch then becomes an Instructor before tea time is possibly not the best way to train people :oh:

[darrenphughes]

What a good idea, get rid of all those pesky foreigners and their pesky thousands of Euro/Pounds/whatever and the country will be a much better place. Especially now that China owns the US. Just another little thing that'll make the recession worse.

You'd think the US would have learned their about making dumbass decisions after electing Bush for a second term.

[Troglodita]

Darren - you stand the risk of being labelled a - dare I say it "Liberal" - what a dreadful thing to be called in a Redneck world - goddamn - the guys a Liberal - lynch him!

Don't ever admit to having a brain - Senator John Mac will be called from the grave to expunge you from "The Land of the Free"

[darrenphughes]

What we'll probably see in the future is a trend of a lot of people that would have come over here to do their training on the J1, will start looking more at South Africa, NZ & AUS. You'll probably also see a reduction in M1 visa's being used for flight training over time as those other locations become more & more popular with European's for training.
:ok: Fantastic news for Americans ! :D

Good for Americans in the short term but definitely not the long term. Well i guess it's good news for the southern hemisphere!!

[whirlydude]

Ah well i will have no choice now but to take J1 visas route next year . When it rains it always seems to pour . First the end of the J1 , credit crunch , house prices dropping maybe recession and this could not have happened at a better time :(.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

Well Leaky Lucy, please explain how it is good news for Americans, for the rest of us Humans

Americans select their government and fund it via taxation - this is not an uncommon model around the world. I don't consider it unreasonable for them to place restrictions on labour rights for non-citizens. I suspect their citizens hold similar views. If you believe your genes give you some inalienable right to work there i'd suggest you do some extensive lobbying of their electorate.

[MrEdd]

FairWeatherFlyer

I might have misunderstood you here. But i fail to see your point?

The J-1 visa has a pretty big restrictions on labour rights for non-citizens. Were talking deleting a labour possibility.
"us" european´s comes here spending a lot of money in US = good for US

Hurray no more europeans stealing cfi work, well sure but aren´t you bleeding off the market, so who is everybody going to teach when the flight school industri takes a dive?

But you´r right in that I do not have a saying in how americans should run their country neither do i claim to, im just glad for the opportunity i have over here.
My passion is flying, and my concern is the effect on that industry.
Sure it can move somewhere else as mentioned South Africa, NZ, Aus.
But it takes a long time to get it up and running before a another area can provide the possibilities for other people looking to start a career as pilots.

Well just my 5cent.:O

[newfieboy]

This Just In! - Vertical Online Forums (http://www.verticalmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10633) Effective December 2008, TC is planning to allow a person with a US commercial helicopter license (150 hours) to be able to come to Canada, show their US license and will be issued a Canadian commercial helicopter license.

NO flight test, NO exam!

On the flip side, a Canadian pilot cannot do the reciprocal in the US because they are 50 hours short.
Well not the end of the world for all you low timers down south, without the J1 visa wondering how to hr build , Still not gonna be easy as you still need work permit and the Canadians dont give em away, and some turbine time , but just maybe another option and the flight instructor option here not realistic for 150hr pilot as you need 400hrs for group 4 instructor rating ,but right place right time you never know, some companies here do hire low time to train them up, company I work for hires couple every year. Anyways seems to me low time friends from down south gonna get it all there own way. just my two cents worth , cheers.

[Lt.Fubar]

American isolationism at its finest ;)

Oh well, there's always Canada, New Zealand, Australia... lot's of places where we can spend our money. Anyone know good school with program like Hillsboro, and similar prices ?

[TheVelvetGlove]

Very few Americans are going to be able to come up with the training funds now that easy credit is coming to an end. Without foreign student mulah, the larger US schools are going to either collapse or will have to change their business model.

Maybe we'll start seeing GOM companies start to contribute towards student training with some kind of employment contract, like the airlines used to do many years ago?

The other alternative has always existed, of course: find yourself a nice, chubby American girl and marry her. :yuk:

[Brian Abraham]

Maybe we'll start seeing GOM companies start to contribute towards student training
With the rest of the worlds aviation businesses requiring people to pay for a job (training, endorsements etc) I'd expect to see hell freeze over before any GOM operator went down that road.

[wigwamwilly]

well Bristow will not care to much. They only wanted titsusville ' just in case ' that Bush was opening up Atlantic drilling........... he did what now ??? They suddenley have a east coast base ??

[jab]

US policy documents http://exchanges.state.gov/education/jexchanges/about/interim_0607.pdf

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/pdf/E8-15783.pdf

The Dept. of State found that there are eight flight instruction schools and approximately 350 students in J-1 status studying among them. All flight training programs no longer are viewed to further the public diplomacy mission of the Dept. Dept. of Homeland Security has been better charged with this responsibility according to Dept. of State and flight instruction students will continue to qualify under the M-1 status through DHS.

The J1 visa is an exchange program visa where students, not just pilots, go to the US, learn a profession or trade and then return to their own countries to teach their citizens the same skills. Staying in the US to do flight instruction falls vaguely under this definition but how many of these J1 instructors ever go back to do instruction in their own countries? That is an honest question. Working as a CFI has been tolerated thus far, it is the "overstays" that have brought this issue to the point where the J1 will not be available to pilots anymore. Once again, the ungrateful minority has ruined a good thing for the law-abiding majority!

As mentioned in the 2006 thread, reciprocity is supposed to work both ways. M1 visas will still enable students to go to the US to do all the training up to CPL level, since it is so much cheaper than Europe it is still a bargain. Americans cant work in Europe without going through a lot more hassle than the J1. Everyone seems to hate the US until they want a green card, I saw whines about the DV or green card lottery not being available to UK citizens, so what. The UK is a first world country where everything is available, at a price. The green card lottery is an immigration opportunity designed for countries where people don't have all the opportunities, not just a way to selfishly get work for a few years before going home. I am unaware of any other countries even having such a lottery, correct me if I am wrong.

If the system in the UK, or the rest of Europe, makes it too expensive or difficult to fly there, put pressure on the various CAA's to change instead of blaming the State Department. Since the airlines and manufacturers live off EU and government subsidies, why does the JAA/CAA not reduce costs to pilots by being subsidised too? I don't have the answers but blaming the US for what is actually a local problem does not make sense. Those who do go back to Europe generally earn much higher salaries than their American equals, even allowing for the higher cost of living. That does not seem entirely fair. I had the opposite experience to most, lived in Spain with an FAA ATP and the Spanish CAA was completely uncooperative. They insisted I had an EU passport to fly as PIC, even though I was a resident of Spain and had the legal right to work there. Is that reciprocity? However, I could fly there as PIC in a foreign registered aircraft, carrying Spanish citizens, sharing the same airspace as their own pilots and all that without a JAA licence or EU passport. :ugh: I subsequently did the JAA / UKCAA licence but I do not see why there cannot be a standardised licence valid anywhere in the world, physics remain the same all over. Subject for another thread.

I don't have a dog in this fight and it does not affect me in the slightest, I just dislike hypocrisy.

[MartinCh]

1) Certain schools will suffer.

2) Not everyone coming to the US on J1 gets instructing job.

3) Some of those who come, are students for US citizens as well

4) FW schools definitely take advantage of cheap, hardworking and knowledgeable instructors

5) 'premium' JAA schools will definitely suffer short term, but then, hey, we have H1 visa if s:mad: hits the fan. Not flexible though

6) Yeah, I can understand sentiment of RW US citizen students, but if they go after their career, they'd be just fine. Unlike those Europeans who blew all the could possibly scratch on RW CFI and don't have any chance of getting 'real job' without hours.

7) those skint FAA CFI guys (and gals) coming back to Europe with no more money left and still 50-100 hours to get only to start expensive FI training (thank God for Bristow's JAA FI, well, who knows for how long if EASA rules get mad - see end of JAA instructing outside Europe threads)

8) I'm finishing my PPL (H) and leave it to show off to girls in bar and keep on flying planks if all this thunderstorm hits..

Especially as some of us still need lots of savings/strike of fortune to fundraise for CPL/CFI training.

I hope this 'statement of policy' doesn't go through and loses enough steam if certain influential lobbying is exercised on behalf of the aviation training industry. God bless (this status quo). Whoa.

I sincerely hope these words are no more than the rumours or suggestions of finishing J1 for aviation students.

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE MEDICAL J1 STUDENTS/TRAINEES? And other professions and training? Why just us? I need J1 to go on.

BTW, some schools have steady supply of Chinese, Taiwanese and Indian sponsored ab-initio cadets (FW wise) so they'd be just fine with M1s.

As for F1, it's fine, but will drive already superexpensive training even higher, shelling out extra 8-12k USD a year for 'degree' one doesn't really need for flying in Europe or for getting the funding (we're not Americans).

Yeah. Those of you who feel against slave/cheap labour for flight instructing:

Get a grip. Who do you think wants/needs more money out of instructing (unless very busy most of time)?
American who has to support himself, pay off loan or provide for own young family
OR
European guy who came here and spend shedloads of dosh, flowing INTO US economy, paid for all himself/from home and only wants to get some time flown for whatever meagre hourly wage/salary he/she can get? Even the ones who don't need to cover living costs as they have money for living after training?

So the cost of paying decent salary/wages to instructors will be then projected into cost of training for wannabes.
Also, J1 students with over year of work visa left, will go to work for school far from 'civilisation' or to not so great place, somewhere 'locals' don't go or want to/arent any around...

I, for once, would love to go and spend my money in NZ or OZ school if it was financially viable. I even started my aviation career plans with heli schools in Australia. Thanks to AUD getting stronger and the prices 'down under' as they are, not easy for rotary flying. We can work part time while studying, outside schools, but then, paying for courses we don't need, international fees just to stay and get flying experience?

Plus around 400 TT for instructing there, btw. Quite a blow. Check out details yourself.

I'm off to check out the seriousness of the release.
Not sure I'll fundraise enough until June 2010. Otherwise they'd be finishing them anytime soon so no more J1 persons on US soil by then..

Happy flying (hate flare part of autos in Robbie... still need it better)

[TheVelvetGlove]

Always wondered, where DO you guys get all that cash for US training? Seems like every one of you shows up with a mountain of it. Did most of you earn it, or are your parents just very generous?

[MrEdd]

Sold my ass to the bank, I´m their assboyfor the rest of my life now.:*
But my office view is better then the bank managers.:ok:

[KrisRamJ]

I earnt all mine, $65k for training and living, all gone. I'm $20k in debt now but I'm working as a pilot which was my goal and I'm just starting to pay it off.

I was expecting most of the people who went to Bristow's Academy to be spoilt rich kids but I was surprised to see that they were less than 1 in 5, maybe even 1 in 10, most people there were living out their life's ambition.

[MartinCh]

yeah. Another thing.

Not sure about Bristow Academy, but there's more US helicopter instructors teaching Germans and Norwegians than US students in proportion. Thus looking to me like all the heli students being trained by Americans SHOULDN'T BE HERE TO LET AMERICANS HOURBUILD ON THEM DAMN FAST. Right?
(KHIO -main part of Hillsboro Aviation. Not sure about numbers in KTTD since it's not for M1/J1 students)

As for this almost xenophobic, patriotic protectionst feelings, without all those European an Asian sponsored (or otherwise) cadets flying planks, there'd be hundreds (if not low thousands) of American airplane instructors without work - training foreigners, companies without business from foreigners, employing American in maintenance, menial and office jobs in flight schools. J1 students are a drop in a pond. J1 rotary even less. The total of foreigners training in the US isn't.

Only blunt people would want non-US aviation students to steer clear from this country as they greatly benefit it. Aviation in the USA wouldn't be what it is without it.

Also, not the best time, but regionals in the US have been recruiting domestic CPL/MEIR graduates into F/O seat. So in FW world, getting to 1000TT or around isn't as magical and quintessential as for rotary Europeans.

As for 'Homeland Security' reasons, J1 students are career minded aviation enthusiasts who plan their career. Not one in hoardes of people flying here recreationally or on M1 without intent to work here temporarily. M1 guys are 'higher risk'. Not to mention all the JAA PPLs who get 'piggyback' FAA PPL and fly around Florida. They're even worse since they were not indoctrinated to FAA standards, aren't they? :ugh: :eek:

Can't find anything on US website. AOPA and AvWeb quoting AOPA

[MartinCh]

Av8rdan's World of Flying (http://www.av8rdan.com/2008/07/more-smoke.html)

[wigwamwilly]

Are you freakin drunk martin I can not understand a freakin word!!

[Gordy]

WigWam---I'm with you--Have NO clue what Martin is talking about.

[Lt.Fubar]

Always wondered, where DO you guys get all that cash for US training? Seems like every one of you shows up with a mountain of it. Did most of you earn it, or are your parents just very generous?I for one am getting masters in engineering, to get a decent paid job - as recently, not so many people in UK and Germany thought about working in that field ;) Just to rise enough money to do what I want - and that is flying rotorcrafts.

J-1 is useful as it allow to train, and than work in the same environment for short period of time - thus giving young pilots ability to learn more than what he can get from simple CPL(H) course. I believe its like driving a car. You may pass the test, get your driving license, but until you drive more on you're own, you can't say you can drive. Fresh CPL(H) pilots don't know squat about working as helicopter pilot until they do some time as one. Without J-1s, people like me, after training will have to switch visas - as I'm aware, is not so simple - or go somewhere else to finalize their learning process.

Training in the US is very tempting, as the prices in Europe are ridiculous - let's say that in US I can do PPL(H), CPL(H), IR, FI, turbine transition, mountain flying and long line operations training for the same amount of money as the simple PPL(H) cost here

Well, it's free market, and it do not like void, by the time I rise my funds there will be other possibilities to chose from, equal or better than the US with J-1. It is only pity to see US closing down without apparent reasons.

[ATPMBA]

This will lead to a shortage of helicopter pilots for the North Sea.

Many helicopter students come to the USA, become Heli CFI's and then go home with 1,000 hours. North Sea operators will have to 1) lower their standards to 200-300 hours 2) hire more military pilolts if they can find them 3) allow USA pilots to emigrate to the EU

I don't think this will affect airlines as they may be will to take on 300 hour pilots.

[Bomber ARIS]

A lowering of the hour requirements for co-pilots is not necessarily the same thing as lowering standards; 1000 hours gained as an instructor in the US has questionable relevance to the rôle of a North Sea P2.

Why not a return to the airline-style system of yesteryear? Take a bloke straight out of Oxford/Cabair, with 100 hours helo time and a fresh CPL; stick him in the left seat and off ye go.

Tis the favoured way among European airlines: mould the new in their own image, afore they pick up/develop wicked ways.

Amen

[Pandalet]

Which school in Aus is conducting JAA rotary training? I was under the impression that the only JAA (rotary) schools outside JAA-land were in the USA?

[TheVelvetGlove]

Maybe you will see more American pilots in the North Sea after 2010 :confused:

The end of the J1 will be bad for everyone- foreign students, American CFI's, American schools.

On a side note, can we put an end to the use of the word "rotorcrafts" ? :ugh:

The plural of rotorcraft is rotorcraft. :ok:

[Overdrive]

On a side note, can we put an end to the use of the word "rotorcrafts" ? :ugh:




I agree, but many posters (like Lt.Fubar) are not speaking English as their first language. They do very well I think.

[ATPMBA]

I believe any helo training done outside of the USA will cost more per hour. Several years ago I looked into a Canadian CPL(H) conversion, the CAN was only worth .65 to one USD at the time and it still cost less to fly an R22 in the states.

I'd like to see what the rates are for R22's, S300 in Aus or NZ.

[Lt.Fubar]

UK accept FAA license for flying PIC in UK registered a/c, so Canada may be very interesting option right now, even though prices are 30-50% higher than in US, it's still a bargain compared to European ones. But Scandinavians and others may have a problem.

Although, as I said, the void will be filled. Probably by the first who allow/enforce biofuel, which may reduce the flight-per-hour costs, as the prices of Avgas are getting a bit ridiculous these days.

On a side note, can we put an end to the use of the word "rotorcrafts" ? :ugh:

The plural of rotorcraft is rotorcraft. :ok:Ups, sorry about that.

[Lt.Fubar]

Are you sure? I heard it mostly depend on the employer, but the US-UK agreement makes no distinction between commercial and non-commercial use.

[lelebebbel]

I'm a German citizen, currently working in the US as a CFI on a J1 visa..

my training here cost me around $60,000. During my time working here, I will make $30,000 at the most. And most of that will be spent here to cover my costs of living.
Someone explain to me how this is bad for the US economy / aviation industry?

[jab]

Av8rdan's World of Flying (http://www.av8rdan.com/2008/07/more-smoke.html)

Some people are making this out to be a sudden, petulant outbreak from the State Department, it is not. It has nothing to do with terrorism, borders or GW Bush, its those J1 students, from all professions, who have overstayed their visas to work illegally in the US. Unfortunately, it affects pilots who are a fraction of the total J1 visas issued every year and as a group are probably the least to blame. That is an assumption on my part because most pilots I know tend to be law abiding and more conscientious than the average :E and employers have to be careful who they hire so they also toe the line, when convenient.

Cross pollination of ideas, training and techniques is always a good thing and it is a pity that some of the experience as a CFI will be lost. The real losers are the flight schools who will need to train and employ US CFI's for the JAA syllabus and they will need to pay more because they cant use desperate J1 holders anymore. Some CFI's will need to get a JAA instructors rating, I wonder how many will be able to work in JAA land?

The amount of money that is spent by the students is not even a drop in the ocean to the US economy so I don't believe that is very relevant. It certainly is not bad for the economy but I don't think the treasury is unduly concerned about running dry.

Oz and NZ may be in the running for JAA training but don't bank on South Africa, too much corruption in the CAA there is going to reduce the credibility of the licence obtained there, even though the training is of a high standard. It will also be very difficult to work there as work permits are definitely more difficult to obtain than a J1 visa has been.

[TheVelvetGlove]

I agree, Lt Fubar does write English very well. :ok:

I was just giving a tip to those who don't realize that using that word in English really sounds odd to native English speakers. Kinda like asking for a "hairs cut".... I meant no offense. :ouch:

[MartinCh]

Which school in Aus is conducting JAA rotary training? I was under the impression that the only JAA (rotary) schools outside JAA-land were in the USA?

HeliWest based at Jandakot airport next to/close to Perth, Australia were recently advertising for Chief FI for their plans with JAA rotary training. As from their website, it looks like they'd use WAAC for JAA ATPL theory/ground on a contract (since they do JAA planks ATPL) and HeliWest would do flying. It's been mentioned by me on another thread. Just search it. Dunno direct link... Sounds painless when they kickstart it and richer guys can afford integrated rotary in OZ..

Sorry guys, my previous post were quite a rant. I can be bit emotional. No sign of booze. I'm flying too often and don't drink much in general. Not a good habit to have. Might change my mind if I ever go planks bush flying though :-/
I'm like a beatnik writer sometimes. One might have to be on the same 'wavelength' or read it again.

Btw, somehow the same wording of 'statement of intent to bla blah' were used at the beginning of the idea to cut it to 18 months etc. the link I gave has links to some pdf docs with the official letter swapping. Didn't happen. Though it seems that even before they stopped approving more schools for J1 visas, they somehow denied Quantum Helicopters in AZ - their application for J1 issuing rights.
Let's leave it to AOPA, HAI, integrated JAA schools and Patrick Corr's charm and persuasive/lobbying skills.

The worst scenario for heli wannabes is to come on M1, do all the training up to CFI and then return on F1, paying some community college, ERAU or UVSC for Associate degree, have some credit hours waived due to certs/ratings and work part-time instructing in the school, as it's 'on-campus' technically. Still, very limiting and time consuming since the school has to hire the guy/gal and no 'externship' ie going to some small heli school that's just hiring with original school's J1 visa 'administered' still by it (complying to rules) There's also the OPT, temporary work visa in the discipline that can be authorised by the college/Uni to get experience in the field. Not sure it's worth 'wasting' at least 12k USD on AAS/AS degree just to have F1 plus other living costs and limited options.

RE: singular, plural and non-native speakers
There's too many exceptions to rules EN students don't know and natives have the feeling but can't explain it or give a definition.
Snob plurals, mutated plurals (umlaut), discretionary plurals, plurals in singular form, irregular plurals, words with two plural versions, French, Latin exceptions and English deviations to the original plurals (also due to using them 'in English grammar way') different context meanings, ay ay ay....

From my experience, there are far too many native speakers in the UK or US who can't spell correctly - websites, papers, everywhere. Even huge billboard ads with 5 words of which one screwed up..
Sorry guys, but that looks kinda redneckish to me -far more than someone using English as second or third language making trivial mistakes.

RE: 1000TT R22/S300 CFIing relevance, well even if not insurance reasons, it's still experience. and it's P1. Self-funding JAA ME IR(R) after rotary CPL is nice, but will get P2 time, so not best for jobhunting after NS without becoming captain first. That's what folks in the know write on PPRuNe. Also North Sea may not be the only option after CPL and instructing, though likely in Europe.

As for sponsorships and CPL 'cadet schemes', look at Bond in UK recently. Quite in demand even when part self-funded.
North Sea is virtually the only chance in the UK for fresh CPL or even experienced instructors without turbine time. It's almost Catch-22 we 'youngsters' can't beat without military background. C'est la vie.

[wigwamwilly]

its over martin its all finished so get used to it and please write no more

[aclark79]

Not sure about Bristow Academy, but there's more US helicopter instructors teaching Germans and Norwegians than US students in proportion. Thus looking to me like all the heli students being trained by Americans SHOULDN'T BE HERE TO LET AMERICANS HOURBUILD ON THEM DAMN FAST. Right?
(KHIO -main part of Hillsboro Aviation. Not sure about numbers in KTTD since it's not for M1/J1 students)

Well considering the balance of German, Austrian and Norwegian instructors working at KTTD teaching nothing but American students... well... guess it all works out in the end.

[darrenphughes]

It certainly is not bad for the economy but I don't think the treasury is unduly concerned about running dry.

Of course they're not concerned anymore, they've already run dry. That's why they had to sell the country to China!!:}.

So what do you guys think the chances are that this dumb hillbilly decision made by a bunch of dumb hillbillies will get reversed at some point in the 4-8 years of the new guy's("the not yet President Obama" as Jon Stewart puts it) reign? He does seem to be showing some sort of knowledge of how the world works so far, well certainly more than the current bumbling idiot.

[wigwamwilly]

nice to see your so grateful for the oppotunities that the us has offered so many there darren and now things aint going your way you get the knives out. typical behaviour

[tottigol]

nice to see your so grateful for the oppotunities that the us has offered so many there darren and now things aint going your way you get the knives out. typical behaviour

Gentlemen please, let's not allow this interesting thread to turn into personal squabbles as in a very well known other helicopters site.
Let us conduct ourselves honorably and only post messages written in the English Language so that most of us can read them.:rolleyes:

[wigwamwilly]

well what more proof do you need to pull the plug on the visa?I can not understand a freakin work of the posts here from people who have english as a 2nd language.So if you have been dreaming of being a helicopter pilot from the age of 3 and a half and you beg steal and borrow to get to that flight school and you meet your instructor and it says hey low diss ear be dee helly-o-kop-ta-ee-oo then keep on driving

[tottigol]

well what more proof do you need to pull the plug on the visa?I can not understand a freakin work of the posts here from people who have english as a 2nd language.So if you have been dreaming of being a helicopter pilot from the age of 3 and a half and you beg steal and borrow to get to that flight school and you meet your instructor and it says hey low diss ear be dee helly-o-kop-ta-ee-oo then keep on driving

wigwamwilly, thank you for making it all so clear now.:rolleyes:

[darrenphughes]

nice to see your so grateful for the oppotunities that the us has offered so many there darren and now things aint going your way you get the knives out. typical behaviourHey Willy, Listen man, the knives were out only when good ould George W decided to put the entire world's economy(including the US') in the ****ter for personal gain!!

As for the US giving me opportunities, I'm the one that has(and still is) pumped about $130k of my hard earned (IRISH) cash into this economy. This was and still is a business relationship and the only reason I'm still here is because my Flight instructor/now Wife wants me here while I'm studying for the JAA ATPL(H) exams. I'm also trying to get her to do the JAA tests so we can move back, but she's a little lazy about studying!!!

I see this decision as a bad one for all parties involved including the US. Of all the people that I know that overstayed the J1 are young people that decided to blow their 2 years earnings on a 3 month drinking binge across the US before going home to start their careers. They're not people that come here and send money back home or have babies in order to screw the system.

My original question was, What do you guys think the chances are that the new administration will change these new rules at some point in their term? His foreign policy seems to be more diplomatic than the current.

Ooh, and I came here on an M1, as the school that I liked didn't do J1's.

[Tokunbo]

wigwamwilly,

Before criticising the English of those who profess it to be their second language, I suggest that you "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye".

well (it's customary to start a sentence with a capital letter) what more proof do you need to pull the plug on the visa?I (it's normal when typing, to insert one or two spaces after a full stop) can not understand a freakin (if you're going to abbreviate a word such as freaking, it's normal to insert an apostrophe in place of the missing letter) work of the posts here from people who have english (the language is English) as a 2nd language.So if you have been

This is not exclusively a forum for those whose first language is English and those who have it as a second language have every bit as much right as you to comment.

[darrenphughes]

And you spelt "oppotunities" wrong!!!! But don't worry, none of us are perfect!:ok:

[Gordy]

Darren---

You obviously do not like it in the US, therefore, feel free to leave.

By the way, it is "spelled" NOT "spelt".

[helipedro]

wrong or wrongly? Anyway , who cares about it in the internet era

[Tokunbo]

Gordy,

Actually, either usage is correct, depending on which side of the Atlantic you live:

'Spelt' is the traditional British form but it's not recognised in most other parts of the world. (i.e. it's not part of 'international english').

'Spelled' is creeping in from the US and seems to be the accepted form for many British newspapers.

According to the OED, irrespective of the form chosen, the correct way of pronouncing the word is 'spelt'. This is unusual because it's normally the US form of a word which matches spelling with pronunciation; here it's the British form which does so.

Bomber,

Yours is a common misconception. People assume that none is a condensed form of no one or not one. As both always take a singular verb, the argument goes, so must none. However, the amateur etymologisers have got it slightly but seriously wrong. Our modern form none comes from the Old English nan. Though this is indeed a contraction of ne an, no one, it was inflected in Old English and had different forms in singular and plural, showing that it was commonly used both ways — King Alfred used it in the plural as far back as the year 888.

The Oxford English Dictionary has a whole section on the plural form of none, pointing out that it is frequently used to mean “no persons” (with writers preferring no one when they mean the singular) and that historical records show that its use in the plural is actually more common than in the singular. On modern usage, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage says, “It appears that writers generally make it singular or plural according to whatever their idea is when they write”.

None of this, of course, has any relevance to this thread which has drifted totally off course and degenerated into some kind of slanging match. I dare say that many people carrying out training in the USA don't like the place, but they have gone there to learn to fly, not to enjoy a holiday. The decision will undoubtedly have a short-term impact on the number of pilots being trained as few countries can compete with the USA in terms of training costs. It will have a tiny impact on the American economy as a whole, but quite a large impact (for now) on the flying training industry in that country. However, demand for training is likely to remain about the same and a number of people will now have to postpone their plans until they have saved more, or some of the larger companies such as Bristow and CHC may have to consider reintroducing sponsored training schemes.

[wigwamwilly]

Tokunbo are you currently held captive in a dark round room with a computer?

[Tokunbo]

wigwam,

That would probably depend on your definition of "captive" as over here in Nigeria many of us are captives :yuk:. At the moment I'm a 'willing' captive, held in a compound for my own safety, on the instructions of my company. This is nominally a 'good thing' as I have access to satellite TV and the internet (though the connection is always slow and frequently unavailable) and am happy and safe :suspect:. This is to stop my becoming an 'unwilling' captive where my only interface with the internet would be as the subject of a security notice and I would be unhappy and under constant threat of death :hmm:. Actually, whilst the room is not round, it is somewhat dark because there's a huge, dark cumulonimbus sitting almost overhead, so I'll doubtless lose both my internet and satellite TV connections soon :\

[darrenphughes]

You obviously do not like it in the US, therefore, feel free to leave.


It's not that I don't really like it here, I just prefer it back home. And believe me, I'm trying my best to leave!!!


By the way, it is "spelled" NOT "spelt".

Like I said nobody's perfect!!
So, anyone got any insight into my original question??

[electric69]

Good job at staying on topic and being helpful guys! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[TheVelvetGlove]

What was the topic, anyway?

[darrenphughes]

How the end of the J1 visa will affect the flight training industry in the US. How it will affect both Americans & Foreigners. And how it will affect schools in other countries.

That seemed to be the general gist of it until some people(including Myself) hijacked it. Sorry about that.:O

[BlenderPilot]

I have two good friends from Europe . . . . . who could have been spared the agony of getting married respectively to a fat Florida and Louisiana girl in order to stay in the U.S. after their visa expired!!

One of them says he would have rather stayed in the Army in Europe than dragging kids and the wife to the Walmart on a hot muggy day!!!

[wigwamwilly]

this just about sums it all up mike click below and play the video at 2 mins 15 secs

YouTube - Little Britain - Fat Fighters w/ Margaree (http://youtube.com/watch?v=FxXGNSx4CBc)

[MartinCh]

Dear Wigwamwilly,

I went through (THRU) my posts. All words in English strangely enough.
I do agree that using few less frequent words, long sentences and writing style more suitable for book does indeed expose me to such comments of yours.

I shall not become sycophant condoning your supercillious attitude and remarks (I AIN'T GONNA BE YOUR BROWNNOSER).

I did profoundly apologise for my use of plethora of words. (I SHOULD USE PLAIN ENGLISH)
I insisted it had not been due to certain nocturnal (NITE) habits.
I should therefore keep track (TRAK) of my word count.

Americans rape Queen's English as well - not just non-native speakers.
I should avoid describing you or giving my opinion since you speak for yourself 'loud and clear'.

Almost ON TOPIC:
IF American student can't train with FAA CERTIFIED instructors (due to language), then I believe it is not so much of a problem of them. Everyone speaking English as foreign language is entitled to an accent. Surely, too strong or people not understanding them can cause problems. Also, you should doubt the school employing such instructors IF they REALLY speak JIBBERISH.
If foreigners don't understand Scottish, Ohio or Tennessee accent, it's their fault. If English speakers don't understand English spoken with strong accent, it's foreigners' fault again. How convenient.

ON TOPIC:
DPH, I mentioned that the US gov't used such wording 'intent' etc before regarding curtailing J1 visas for flight students to 18months or 1 month of 'practical experience' for every 3 or 4 months of instructing.
Hard fact is that they stopped authorising more schools and screwed over Quantum before they officially stopped doing so.

If it all goes through in 2010 or around that time, I can see more students from Europe simply getting PPL, IR and hourbuilding as fast as they can. Less spending on living in the US with high expense for aircraft hire. It may not be that easy for rotary if schools would require more experience to rent helis for extended XC. Not to mentioned need for instructor for maneuvres.

Whatever happens, it won't be pure disaster but rather obstacle for helicopter pilots starting career.

[MartinCh]

ivor,
sure schools in the UK won't mind having couple more students.
Those who can sell house in the UK or remortgage or get huge loan will train either way. Just not sure whether they wouldn't head to Australia, NZ or SA instead. Still cheaper than UK.

As for 'ailing', people here mention shortage of instructors in the UK. Maybe not every school, but if there's less guys coming back from Bristows with JAA papers and FI rating, there'd be less available instructors, right? I'm not talking about lucky guys with excess of 1000 hours or even spare cash for JAA IR(H) in Billund or wherever.

What about those who can't get enough cash for flying so much in the UK? Would they sacrifice another x years just to get it all done to JAA min hours for instructing, even with some hourbuilding in the US after PPL?

[ATPMBA]

I'm under the impression that North Sea operators hire only guys/gals with 1,000 of helo time. Getting a US commercial and instrument rating only takes about 200 hours. How will they get the other 800 flight hours?

[Bravo73]

I'm under the impression that North Sea operators hire only guys/gals with 1,000 of helo time.

You've got the wrong impression, ATPMBA. Lots of CPL/IRs have been hired recently (ie in the last 2 years) with about 250hrs TT.

(Under JAA, a modular CPL course in min time will complete at 185hrs and the IR is a further 50hrs).

[MartinCh]

FROM FLemplymentLawBlog.com
In a July 11, 2008 statement of policy (73 Fed. Reg. 40008), the U.S. Department of State (“USDOS”) notified the public that effective June 1, 2010, it will exercise its authority under 22 C.F.R. § 62.62 to terminate the J program designations of all eight sponsors of J-1 flight training programs, having determined these programs “no longer further the public diplomacy mission of the Department of State.” USDOS, however, noted that all eight flight training programs are also designated in the M-1 category.

The flight training sponsors will continue to have obligations to their exchange visitors pursuant to 22 CFR 62.63: they must fulfill their responsibilities to all exchange visitors who are in the United States at the time of their program termination until the individual’s exchange program is completed. Also, sponsors must notify prospective exchange visitors who have not yet entered the United States that the program has been terminated. Sponsors will have access to SEVIS to manage their existing program participants, but will not be able to initiate new programs after December 31, 2009.

link (http://www.flemploymentlawblog.com/2008/07/articles/exchange-visitor-program-terminates-j1-flight-training-program-designations/)


Bravo73,

Well, those guys who can spare cash for JAA IR(H) and still do JAA CPL will not have problems thanks to aviation J1 demise. They'd be just fine on M1.

Ivor,
Didn't know it's that small numbers. It says something about success (and wealth) of Bristow Academy grads so that they are not 'forced' to instruct in the UK.
If I could get JAA FI (not counting the theory crunching) with the hours to instruct in the US (even 200TT heli for Robbies SFAR thingy) and come back to UK to instruct, I'd go for it straight away.
I think that those 250 hours req to start rotary JAA FI is like and orphaned child of fixed wing regulations in a way. Sure, more hours more experience, so then why FAA heli training system isn't crumbling?

Those extra hours (to start FI rating) plus JAA FI means around 280+ AFAIK. I'm sure there's more folks thinking the same.
Hence the need for instructing in the US due to limited budget. If successful, then they don't need to instruct in the UK when back.
Catch-22, really.
To save longer to instruct in the UK and delay career by couple years or do it as fast as possible on J1.

I wish I could be in position to 'give up completely' after CPL papers etc without the need, ie lost medical etc. That must be the guys who get wad of cash the easy way and/or find flying isn't about 'looking cool'. Others have to save for years to get there - they already decided.

[MartinCh]

Direct link to PDF on NAFSA web (http://www.nafsa.org/_/Document/_/exchange_visitor_program_2.pdf)

NAFSA article on the matter (http://www.nafsa.org/regulatory_information.sec/regulatory_document_library.dlib/j_exchange_visitors/exchange_visitor_program_2)

The link above from FLemploymentLawBlog.com also has one comment just made after I posted article. It has detailed 'opinion' why it's going to end.

To make the story short, it's not about overstaying boozers or other classes of J1. It's about Patriot Act and DHS and DOS differences on who should do extra paperwork 'overseeing' J1 flight training program. That the business loss to some J1 'dependent' schools is not considered as since there's not that many J1 flight students a year, so it QUOTE 'benefits few people'.

Great :ugh: :yuk: :mad:

[photex]

Just reading through the posts and you can read it two ways -


"No more visas will be issued after June 2010"

or

"In June 2010, J1 visas will be terminated regardless of time left"


Does someone know which one it is?


It seems silly to me that someone could apply for a J1 visa in say Jan 2010 and then only get 5 months on it!

[photex]

I guess no-one knows then!?

[MartinCh]

"In June 2010, J1 visas will be terminated regardless of time left"

C'mon, if you've gone through LASORS, ANO or FAR/AIM, ATPL theory, you should have got the gist of the messages.
If it seems too silly, then it probably isn't so. Slow down, digest the info.
The links I included (for the PPRuNers' info) say it all.
It's not hot topic anymore with me whinging about it and posting all the links..

Expect high demand last months before deadline so the chosen school might fill their own/however decided cap for the number of new or total J1 students. I'm sure some FW Florida schools won't mind couple extra students and the studs won't mind bit less flying/slots in exchange for being safely in.
If you got the plans to do J1 and have all the funding, do it rather earlier than later.

I'll quote my quote from quoting the quote elsewhere:hmm: to clarify in plain-ish English
The flight training sponsors will continue to have obligations to their exchange visitors pursuant to 22 CFR 62.63: they must fulfill their responsibilities to all exchange visitors who are in the United States at the time of their program termination until the individual’s exchange program is completed.
This means that if you made it past the US border and were stamped date on your I-94 in passport and DS 2019, you're safe in these terms. So the cut off means that from about June 2012, there shouldn't be anyone left on flight training J1 as all the last birds in flew out or changed to another visa..

Also, sponsors must notify prospective exchange visitors who have not yet entered the United States that the program has been terminated. If somebody is stupid/unlucky enough to get DS form in time but fails to be on US soil with stamped docs by 1st of June 2010, then they are supposed to be told by the school - GAME OVER.

Sponsors will have access to SEVIS to manage their existing program participants, but will not be able to initiate new programs after December 31, 2009.
This means that you have to get the initial paperwork, DS 2019 from school BY END OF 2009. You can apply for visa anytime over the months after as long as you comply with the above with DS in hand.

[eikido]

I'm not sure if i have understood this correct, but it seems as they will take away the old J1 visa and make it easier to get the new M1 which is almost the same as the J1.

AOPA Online: Foreign flight students get alternative to J-1 visa (http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/080917visa.html)

[Phil77]

"almost the same"???!

- 1 year vs. 2 years duration
- no work experience for the visa holder and no work permit for his/her spouse (!)

...but the M-1 is certainly enough to get 250 hours to start in the north sea.

[eikido]

Just to correct this, it says " the Department of Homeland Security said that it will create a new visa category, M, to replace the J-1 visa"

So it is not the M1 as i said. It will be a new M visa, so lets say M2.

Regards
Eikido

[darrenphughes]

Just to correct this, it says " the Department of Homeland Security said that it will create a new visa category, M, to replace the J-1 visa"

So it is not the M1 as i said. It will be a new M visa, so lets say M2.

Regards
Eikido

Well now, that could be very interesting. There seems to be a lot more helo schools over here with the M1 visa's than there is with the J1. Now if they open up another M category visa like your example the M2, would that make it easier for these schools to get the "M2" status than it was to get the J1 status? If that was the case, then it could be really good news for anyone coming to the states to train and work for a short period after their training.

[MartinCh]

“As things currently stand, the M visa will have all of the characteristics of the J-1 visa, so our expectation is the transition should be seamless for students and flight schools.”
(from the same AOPA article. Bold - my highlighting)

You guys forgot to quote the most important thing for heli pilots.
There is M visa class for vocational studies in the USA. I presume they'd create subclass of the current M1 (just like J1 is for aupairs, med PhDs, internships, summer work programmes, flight training as of now - it's all J1, just different duration and work authorisation...).

M2 is reality. It's for dependant of M1 holder (but the current M2 does not authorise dependant to work, unlike J2 - no limitations work permit, funny that).

If this becomes reality, it'll be great news for smaller schools (having or pursuing M1 options - being able to issue I-20s. It may as well be closer to F1 visas (language and academic studies) which allow 'on-campus' part-time work etc.
It may not please the big J1 schools too much as it'd bring more competition (Brits, Germans and Scandinavians could get more picky if they don't need JAA course right away), but I guess it's better than having only the current M1 options.

We'll see. My green card lottery entry already submitted this year. :)

[Phil77]

I suppose you have to wait for the new administration.

[MartinCh]

simondlh,
Look, don't wanna sound pessimistic, but you should think of other ways/options if you won't make it before it's gone. It's too 'insignificant' for DOS to bother with it and no other govt agency wants to bother. So let's just stop it,right? We'll get them some fluffy vague honeyed promises (to keep AOPA happy for the time being) and then we'll just 'forget'.
That's how I see it. Or is it still October?
It's about the will.

Phill77,
Wake up. Don't wanna talk politics, but it's bit wishful thinking, that all the changes to our 'cause' happen because of another face in WH. :rolleyes:
...but the M-1 is certainly enough to get 250 hours to start in the north sea.
Well, not for everyone (lucky ones). If I could throw enough cash for 250 hours and JAA FI rating on top (or hefty JAA IR(H) for NS without 1000TT), I would not need to bother with some J1, now would I?
It's rather about having 150 or 200h heli (R22 SFAR73) and getting some hours in logbook instructing.

[Phil77]

my bad, poorly phrased... I should have said that the old administration is not getting anything done anymore (have they ever? :{ )

[whirlydude]

I had a look thru old posts on this website and alot of other ones as well and i still find it difficult to get any answers . I know the visa ends at the end of this year 2009 but what is june 2010 date about . Is it a done deal . All info on this subject is welcome

[HELOFAN]

Any updates on this?

[Winnie]

For all of you thinking, how about Canada?

I know of a place that is considering doing full Transport Canada CPL/IR AND JAR CPL, with a possible single engine IR.

No visa problems here, not as cheap as US, but cheaper than UK/Europe, and no problems getting on the schedule...

Cheers
W.

[MartinCh]

Winnie, you don't happen to work/be affiliated with such FTO, do you?

It would be interesting to see CHC buying off some good school and starting up Bristow Academy equivalent. There are options for some 'work experience' work permit after finishing CPL/CFI training. Plus many could use Working Holiday Visa aka '1 year open work permit' as per Canadian visa terms.

No doubt with USD/GBP 'killing us' when heading over/returning to the US, Canadian rates are becoming more interesting. So do NZ rates. Both countries more than fun for mountain flying. :cool:

whirlydude, since you don't bother reading up,
Dec 31 2009 last chance for school to issue DS form you need for visa appl at embassy/consulate.

June 2010, last chance to enter the US for the first time to 'activate' J visa. Otherwise royally stuffed.


HELOFAN,
Don't think so. I tried to find something on AOPA website recently. Only old 'news'. You know, these things take time. Long time. :(

[Winnie]

Martin CH

The answer would be Yes...