FAA CPL & IR training in UK

[tdbristol]

Hi,

Has anyone done FAA IR/CPL training in the UK?
Does anyone know if this is possible?
If it can be done, any recommendations/experiences?

Thanks

(Tried searching but of course "FAA" is disallowed as too short.)

[youngskywalker]

Yes I have, not quite so simple these days, and no I would not even bother now!

Save yourself a load of dosh/stress and hassle and just go to the States! It's worth the effort of gowing through the Visa process to train in the States even taking into account the cost of time off work, flights, accomodation etc.

Trust me, I've done it both ways and learned my lesson!

My advice is, get the FAA medical and written exams done in the Uk before you go, the exams can be taken at Flightsafety farnborough and a few other locations. The medical can be taken with several UK AME's.

[Julian]

Maybe a dumb question but do you already have a FAA PPL and therefore the pre-req 'aeronautical experience' hours required?

If you have a piggyback PPL you may not meet all the requirements, i.e. no night flying in JAA PPL hence you would have to complete this before you went for the checkride.

J.

[stickandrudderman]

TAA at denham can do this for you I believe.

[Duchess_Driver]

Yep, TAA or more precisely John Page will be able to sort it out. Examiner flies in once in a while for check-rides.

"If you have a piggyback PPL you may not meet all the requirements, i.e. no night flying in JAA PPL hence you would have to complete this before you went for the checkride."

If your FAA PPL is not unrestricted then you will NOT be able to add CPL/IR to it - you can fill out the appropriate paperwork centuries in advance so that the FAA can request the details from the CAA to have this issued - or you can do a FAA checkride outright. Much quicker that way - and a lot easier as some of the GH work that they do in the FAA CPL has a grounding in the FAA PPL.

Willow at SEN and AAA(?) at Humberside are the other candidates to do it this side of the pond.

[IO540]

Is the examiner visiting from the US, or UK based? Just curious - I have done it all myself and have no need.

There has never been a problem getting training done in the UK, either with freelance FAA instructors or with normal JAA instructors (the FAA accepts both equally towards any FAA license or rating).

Getting the checkride has always been the gotcha, and there have been some spectacular "incidents" where people did all the training and then .... no examiner!

[AlphaMale]

What about the minimum requirements? I have read you need 250hrs

I did ask in this thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/334878-faa-cpl-requirements.html

[IO540]

It's all in Part 61.

The FARs are online (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet).

61.129 (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGFAR.NSF/0/F18E724C353E3EAD86256959004C047F?OpenDocument) is what you need.

[tdbristol]

Thanks to all for your comments.

I perhaps should have been clearer: I currently have JAA PPL + IMC and am aware of the requirements for FAA CPL and IR. I do not currently meet the CPL requirements but by the time I have done the IR I will.

I plan:
- standalone FAA PPL
- FAA IR
- then CPL

My problem is I cannot get enough time away from work to do even the first two together in the US; but I can routinely get 4 day 'weekends', which would allow me to do 4 days training each week for several weeks in the UK.

[chrisbl]

My route was

JAR PPL + IMC + night qualification, to get a piggy back FAA Private certificate.

Then did FAA IR

Then did FAA commercial certicate, able to train and fly using the piggyback private certificate

End result, a standalone FAA Commercial with IR
and a FAA piggy back private with IR (US test passed) based on the JAR certificate. Two certificates with two different numbers admittedly the piggyback private is redundant now but it costs nothing.

Tips:

Study LASORS and FAR 61. and align the aeronautical experience for best advantage. A good example is the long cross country for the commercial.

JAR requires a 300 nmile trip with two intermediate stops. As long as only you fly you could have an aircraft full of people.

FAR requires a trip with two intermediate stops where one stop is at least 250nm from the starting point, the trip to be done solo (meaning no one at all in the aircraft, not even a spectator).

The FAR trip would qualify for the JAR requirement.

The same is true with the night qualification. Look up the FAA commercial night requirements and make sure the JAR night training covers that off even if it is more than is strictly needed for the night qualification.

This can save a lot of money in the end through good planning, gets you to understand the requirements and also minimum time if that is the objective.

So it makes sense to ensure you know the regulations and USE THEM TO YOUR ADVANTAGE.

[mattpilot]

I don't suppose those UK schools offering FAA courses in europe are in need of any FAA qualified instructors? :E

[youngskywalker]

check out FAA UK CORPORATE AVIATION FLIGHT TESTING, FLIGHT TRAINING AND LASERGRADE TESTING FACILITY (http://www.businessair.us) for the examiner. I think that you have to do the training in your own N reg aircraft now though.

Whichever way you go, good luck

[englishal]

If your FAA PPL is not unrestricted then you will NOT be able to add CPL/IR to it
If you have a "restricted" FAA certificate (i.e. "based on") then you can take the commercial no problem, once you meet the requirements. So I wouldn't bother with the standalone FAA PPL.

[IO540]

If somebody has a piggyback FAA PPL then they can do the FAA IR OK.

If they do the CPL then that will replace the piggyback PPL (cannot hold both at the same time).

However if the chap has no FAA PPL of any sort then he cannot (afaik) do any FAA IR training in the USA, because the flying out there is done with him as PIC, and he cannot be a PIC without a valid license of some sort. I suppose he could get a Student Pilot Certificate and work towards the CPL and the IR together? I doubt it.

If you can get the FAA CPL, rather than the PPL, go for it. A CPL can give you privileges in the future. Actually it gives you some right now, not necessarily obvious ones...

[Scottishflyer182]

Hi, I have a Jar PPL ,night and IMC. Have piggy back FAA PPL.

My plan was to do my IR FAA first and then do my CPL FAA.

However reading this thread this may not be the way to do it. Would I be better doing my CPL first then my IR so that I could attach the IR rating to my CPL FAA and not the Piggy back PPl :confused:

If these where done at the same time (over a 4 week period) could the IR be attached to the new CPL?

[IO540]

There is no difference at all that I can see to doing the IR after a CPL, versus doing the IR after a PPL and then doing the CPL later.

I did the PPL, then the IR, the the CPL, each spaced out by a year or two.

What you can do is a double checkride e.g. CPL and IR on the same checkride. Normally you pay two fees for such a checkride so it doesn't save money, and TBH I wouldn't bother because you get a double oral exam too and unless you are absolutely on top of things, there is twice as much stuff to study for together...

The FAA CPL is quite a nice project to do after everything else is done. This is because there is no mandatory dual (instructional) time on it. Once you have gone up with an instructor who has shown you what is expected, you can practice the manoeuvers in your own time. I really enjoyed that. You can easily get everything to perfection for the checkride.

The CPL needs a specific 250nm VFR flight, solo, with three different landings on it. This is a pretty unusual logbook entry because it isn't the sort of flight you will do intentionally. It can be split over an overnight stop (in which case one is pretty likely to have it in the logbook already) though this is a grey area and is at the examiner's discretion entirely whether such a flight would qualify.

[mcgoo]

IO540, the CPL flight is greater than 300nm with 3 points of landing and a straight leg of at least 250nm.

[chrisbl]

IO540

If they do the CPL then that will replace the piggyback PPL (cannot hold both at the same time).

.
Not true, I have both.

[mcgoo]

Me too, you get different license numbers.

[IO540]

OK, you can hold a piggyback FAA PPL, and an FAA CPL, together. Interesting. But what is the point??

[youngskywalker]

In my case actually quite uselful! My FAA licence is 'mutli engine commercial' only, no single engine privelidges! I had no need for the single engine commercial and so did all my training for CPL and IR on a twin. But if I want to rent a single engine in the States now I would need to either do a single engine commercial check ride or just use my piggy back licence off my UK PPL.

[IO540]

One additional point for those folks who have a FAA certificate based on a Euro PPL and then decide to proceed to go in for an add-on FAA IR, as soon as you start to add ratings to that based on certificate that do not exist on your Euro license - you must complete a FAA medical.

I don't dispute this SoCal but this is widely regarded as a grey area over here, and many pilots rely on it being false. The FAA has often been asked to confirm/deny it but nobody TMK has ever managed to get a meaningful reply out of them. The John Lynch FAQ (last edition 2004; I have a copy if you need it) does not illuminate the matter either.

Personally, I avoided all piggyback stuff and am glad I did. And got an FAA Class 1 medical.

Incidentally I got myself a CAA Class 1 medical too - this was the Initial one and once you have done one of these, and renewed within 5 years, the Renewal includes the Demonstrated Ability option which could, one day, be priceless, and this has several aspects which safeguard European IR privileges - should we all be forced to Euro reg one day by EASA. We may one day get a more sensible IR over here but one can almost guarantee the medical requirements will not be relaxed. For £300 or so, it was a reasonably cheap insurance. A CAA Class 1 Renewal is basically identical to any FAA medical because the DA option (available on Renewals only) can be used to sidestep a lot of factors which would stop you getting the Initial.

[Julian]

IO540


Quote:
If they do the CPL then that will replace the piggyback PPL (cannot hold both at the same time).

.
Not true, I have both.

When I passed my ME CPL I had my piggyback PPL removed so was left without any SE priveldges. Sounds like you may be holding both due to an error as I understood the situation as per SoCall App statement.

J.

[chrisbl]

Well both are listed on the FAA database

[englishal]

All my certificates are listed, but as per Julian and Socal I believe you can only hold 1 FAA certificate.

However reading this thread this may not be the way to do it. Would I be better doing my CPL first then my IR so that I could attach the IR rating to my CPL FAA and not the Piggy back PPl
What I did was.....

Got an FAA piggyback certificate
Added the FAA IR ("US test passed")
Added the Private ME rating with Instrument privileges ("US Test passed")
Did the ME CPL which then became a ME CPL IR (I didn't have to demonstrate instrument flight again as I already held Pvt ME IR)
Then did the SE CPL which became SE CPL IR (as I already held the IR)

One interesting thing is that if you do the ME CPL first, then you are exempt from having to do the SE CPL in a complex aeroplane, and exempt from having to do any nav element - basically you nip up for some commercial manoeuvres, circuits etc......

[IO540]

In the UK - does the addition of an Instrument Rating not require an additional hearing test to be done - 'pure tone audiometry' - not usually done as part of the basic class 2 medical?

Correct - even though a JAA PPL/IR can be run on a Class 2 medical (the CPL/IR needs a Class 1) you have to pass the audiogram out of the Class 1 medical.

This stops a lot of people ever doing the European IR.

There are solutions but quite complicated.

The audiogram business is an ICAO recommendation which Europe has gold plated into a mandatory requirement. Pragmatically, the USA has filed a difference to ICAO and thus no audiogram is required for any US aviation medical.

The JAA audiogram is a stupid thing because on a JAA renewal medical you get Demonstrated Ability, and DA includes unlimited hearing loss!! So all that JAA achieves is a bar to entry; once "in" you can be as deaf as you like and so long as an instructor / training captain can confirm you can do the job, you are OK. Typical European stupid elitist thingy.

[IO540]

The counter-argument is that the FAA IR requires FAA medical requirements and AFAIK you automatically meet those with any JAA medical, without the audiogram.

An interesting debate....

[IO540]

Anybody seriously wanting a FAA cert with the intent of using it outside the US should NOT consider a 'based on'.

I agree 10,000%

A piggyback PPL is a house of cards. I suppose it got popular in the goode olde days when you could get it without having to go to the USA.

[Fright Level]

I recently got an FAA private based on my UK ATPL. They gave me SEP/MEP but not the IR. I found you can add the IR by sitting a 50 question Foreign Pilot test. I asked at the school yesterday, $90 fee with a resit FOC if I failed. With only the briefest look through the test question prep book, I sat the exam and passed. Off to an FSDO on Monday to add the rating.

I only use my "based on" FAA licence to rent in the USA.

Socal, did you get my PM? Went Torrance/Big Bear/Palm Springs on Wednesday. Were you working?