Flying Club/tuition shuts down in Aberdeen

[Slopey]

Unfortunately, the Flying Club at Aberdeen, such as it was, has been shut down. Bit of a no brainer after Signature put the parking fees up 840%.

Email came out on Friday night - the last few sentances sum it up:

"The fact is that large airports and large commercial operators/handling agents simply do not want Flying Clubs on their airports. This massive and unreasonable rent increase reinforces this fact but sadly there is nothing we can do."

At £16+ per touch & go, it's hardly been a hive of training activity anyway with most people going to Inverness/Dundee - but it's a shame, and for everyone still parking there, it's one less voice. Aberdeen must be one of the most isolated places to be a non-group/owning PPL now, with Dundee the nearest bet.

:(

[usedtofly]

That's life!

The answer is simple, vote with your feet and go somewhere where you will be welcomed as a valuable customer. Aberdeen is a commercial airport and not really suited to the needs of pleasure flying.

There are a few airfields around that are much better suited.

And before someone bangs on about why should they have to travel long distances to fly etc, it's like owning a yacht and living in the middle of the country.....you WILL have to travel.

The other choice of course is to move closer to a nice airfield :)

Oh and lastly I do not live in Aberdeen or work for the airport or Signature.

Fly for fun :) (somewhere nice)

UTF

[IO540]

It's not 'life' it's stupid airport management.

None of these airports are so busy they cannot accomodate GA.

The only one which would qualify for that would be Heathrow, and Gatwick. However Gatwick could easily accomodate GA during its quiet periods (of which it has plenty).

It's the same thing as the yellow jacket attitude. Or ISO9000 :)

[bad bear]

Sad to hear the last flying club is closing. It is horrid flying somewhere that you are not welcome and it sounds like we were no longer welcome at Aberdeen. Like the Model club, gliding Club and University air Squadron who moved on years ago (all used to be at Dyce) private flying will survive in another form. I hope some of the displaced aviators will try Deeside Gliding Club and enjoy the challenging and fuel efficient flying that the club and its excellent fleet offer at amazingly low prices in a friendly environment.
b b

[MIKECR]

Whats happening to the rest of the syndicate and group aircraft parked at the flying club, are they being ousted too?

[youngskywalker]

As far as I know as long as you keep paying the fee's then you can stay.

Very sad, I remember a thriving club with around 200 active member's in the early to mid 90's.

They are betting on the new Donald Trump golf complex, and and they smell the money that they assume will come pouring in with squadrons of Gulfstreams and BBJ's from the States; therefore they really don't want flying club people hanging around. Aberdeen may be pretty busy at the moment with the orgy of oil related flights, but as before, it wont last and will soon return to a barron airfield with the occasional Jetstream from Eastern! Sadly GA will be pretty much gone.

[MIKECR]

Yeah I remember the last Signature price hike.....strangely enough it was announced the day after Mr Trump proposed his golf course development! There was obviously no option but to oust the local cessna and piper contingent to make way for some heavy metal biz jets and corporate aircraft

[Say again s l o w l y]

That's life!

The answer is simple, vote with your feet and go somewhere where you will be welcomed as a valuable customer. Aberdeen is a commercial airport and not really suited to the needs of pleasure flying.

There are a few airfields around that are much better suited.

And before someone bangs on about why should they have to travel long distances to fly etc, it's like owning a yacht and living in the middle of the country.....you WILL have to travel.

The other choice of course is to move closer to a nice airfield

Oh and lastly I do not live in Aberdeen or work for the airport or Signature.

Fly for fun

So where do you suggest in that area that has a licenced field available for flight training? Or Instrument procedures for IMC ratings etc?

Where else should the members and students go? We aren't talking about the South East of England here.

Greedy airport management and a total lack of understanding of what GA can do for an airport. ABZ isn't exactly the busiest place, so why force off needed revenue?

Oh well, I suppose people will just have to move off to grass strips that while beautiful, tend to be not so great in the middle of a wet Scottish winter.

[jamestkirk]

I have done some instructing at ABZ and am an FO based there.

It is a sad fact that as commercial aviation becomes busier that large airfields do not want GA there.

I instructed at grampian for a a few months when I got based in ABZ. It did not have any staff or real facilities to operate as a full time school and the student base was my colleagues girlfriend. This, couple with what I understand to be unreasonable price rises proved to be an inevitable outcome.

The problem is that there are no close alternatives. I could only look for part time FI work at dundee ot perth. The drive would be not worth the hassle on my day off. Most FI's know about hanging around a school for 10 hours in the day waiting for the weather to pick up and eventually doing 0-30 minutes of instructing. So, for people wanting to do a PPL on a week-end after working all week the drive on the off chance of a lesson might seem a little too restricting.

Bear in mind that ABZ is very north the landscape cannot accommodate the multitude of airfields that dotted around more temperate regions. Even though this part of the world is stunning to fly around.

I hope that eventually someone will get an airfield near the city of aberdeen , develop it (licensed) and open a club. Although, in reality I do not think that will happen in the near future. If it does happen, I would be the first to throw my FI rating into the in tray.

[Golf Alpha Whisky]

Signatures price increase has been a major contributor but I also have to say other factors have contributed equally if not more so. I learned at Aberdeen Flying club pre Flight Academy and it was a buzzing organisation with a full time receptionist at the desk, half a dozen instructors with at least two on duty nearly all the time. Weekends were wall to wall bookings for 2 C152's and a C172 both for tuition and gift vouchers.

The Flight Academy fiasco is well documented but even they tried to run it as a club with dedicated instructors and a receptionist.

Grampian basically delayed the inevitable taking over from Flight Academy butr never really established the organisation as a flying club. Although initially there was someone to take bookings etc this seemed to be on a casual basis and gradually it became more and more difficult to get an instructor. The web based booking system they had was excellent for PPL's who hire and I used them quite a bit during the last year for rental of the Warrior. However given the reduction of any structure as a club to zero it has become difficult if not impossible to get any training and Gift Vouchers often having to wait some time for an instructor to get their flight. In addition quite a few of the regular renters have joined groups removing that income stream. Throw the recent weather into the mix and suddenly the Signature cost becomes a major factor with little income.

Their email mentions that they have managed to operate in profit until the last quarter but flying out of ABZ in another synidicate I can see how infrequently the Warrior is flown these days and it seems that with little income stream closure was inevitable.

I just hope this does not spell the beginning of the end for GA in Aberdeen - as well as being a terrific place to fly around, the training and experience that you get flying in this environment is excellent.

[flyme273]

Sad news indeed. As mentioned by others, where else can one go within a reasonable travelling time? Deeside, Dundee, Longside and Insch (?) are all one hour plus in the car.
When I trained at Aberdeen, Montrose and Fordoun were available and were ideal for circuit training.
Considering the changeable weather in that part of the Country, GA needs dependable access to approach aids.

[youngskywalker]

Since about 1990 Aberdeen has seen about seven different owners of the flying school/club, some good, some bad and one in particular very well documented on here in recent years! But the same problems beset them all, busy airport with long times spent holding at busy periods, high fuel prices, lost flying days because of poor weather or wind direction and runway orientation, lack of local maintenance etc etc.

My friends at Grampian new that something had to change for any sort of club to survive, they tried to reduce costs by not employing full time office staff and instructors. The hourly rate did go up by quite a lot more than in previous years and indeed compared to other schools, so they tried to offset that by at least providing members with what they had been asking for, two fairly nice PA28's. They had been growing bored with old C150's and 152's. It was never going to be as busy a school as it had been in it's hey day in the early 90's, but the aim was to try and hang on in there, keep GA alive in ABZ, at least until they were thrown out by the Airport for good. They were managing this, only just, and I'm sure would have continued to do so for as long as people wanted to rent the aircraft or have the occasional lesson. Sadly as mentioned above, the fuel prices, parking and landing charges became too much for anybody to cope with.

If only somebody could turn the old RAF Edzell site back into a nice little GA airfield. I reckon it would do well. Well away from controlled airspace, close to Aberdeen and Dundee, lovely tarmac runways, no BAA, no commercial ATC and you could even attract smaller biz jet aircraft in.

We can but dream

P.S I should add, that in fairness to Signature, the previous owners of the school shafted them for over 8k in unpaid fuel charges then buggered off leaving a trail of destruction behind them all the way to the central belt! I suspect that a fair bit of damage was caused by that incident and probably tarnished the reputation of light aviation in these parts.

[Captain Smithy]

Very sad news. Yet another flying club needlessly shafted by small-minded airport management and "handling" parasites.

Signature of course at their very best. :rolleyes:

Just a wee thought to ponder: with airport charges ever-increasing, what can we do to fight this? I fear that as a minority we (i.e. GA) would seem to be devoid of a voice and certainly too small to be taken notice of by business. However surely we can collectively stand up and put up a fight instead of sitting moaning here on PPRuNE? Many commercial operators are sick of high charges so why doesn't aviation collectively take a stand against it?

Smithy

[dont overfil]

One would think if the fuel was supplied through the FBO it would be in their interest for the club to keep going.
After all 2% of something is better than 100% of bugger all.
DO.

[Richard Taylor]

I agree Signature appear to be looking to concentrate on the bizjets, assuming Trumpie gets his golfing utopia & assuming they will come if permission to build is given. With Nicklaus & Lawrie also building courses, Signature maybe think it'll be bizjet heaven at ABZ! :rolleyes:

Perhaps Signature are expecting a bizzie boom from when BA pull out of ABZ as is the rumour! :}

[Captain Smithy]

Heh heh! Perhaps.

One thing I have never understood is why is GA (the light end, not BizJets) regarded as such a nuisance at bigger airfields? I understand concerns about approach traffic etc. - it's no mean feat mixing SEPs with 757s and Dash-8s - but surely this is not the sole reason? The ATC controllers at EDI do a wonderful job of mixing light aircraft with the heavies and it all works well.

What was Signature's reason for the 840% hike in price? Did they give a reason?

[youngskywalker]

It's more about image! :ok:

[Rod1]

Has AOPA been approached about this?

Rod1

[500 above]

Hi All

Was in ABZ (handled by Signature) the other day. Crap weather was clearing late afternoon enough for a PA28-161 to go off with a PPL checkout, so I guess they are still renting out there.

There are 2 small offices in the Signature 'FBO' - AKA portakabin - for the GA operation to use I belive. It's a shame that the GA guys and girls are being ousted here as there really are no other local options. :ugh:

As a bizjet pilot (and GA instructor) Signature - if you are charging all of this money to GA why not cut the grass in front of your extensively refurbished 'FBO'... It would help the GA guys and look better to your bizjet passengers and crews upon arrival.

Good luck to all of you GA people in ABZ.

[papa600]

If the numbers I was told are true then the increase in cost for the Flying Club per month (840%) equated to approx one hours flying revenue. If that is true - is that alone really enough to put the club out of business?

Little infrastructue in place for training, no one manning the desk to take bookings / calls, no full time instructors, ad hoc instructors who have other flying jobs so difficult to get a hold of, cost of fuel and cost of lessons / renting club aircraft, decreasing client base ....... Hmmm :hmm:

[gasax]

I also am not sure that Signature are the main culprit. As noted above the 'club' has had more owners than my grandad's shovel had handles. Mostly it has been run as a sideline by people with an aviation interest but no overwhelming drive. So depending who was in charge things have varied immensely.

Its last silver-ish era was when Bill Hendersen managed it for Tayside but that unfortunately is a long time ago.

Signature themselves probably barely have a business if it were not for the fuel. However hopefulyl someone will step up to the plate and try and make a go of it....

[youngskywalker]

I hope your right but I cant see anybody else trying now! The most active part of the flying club was always in the lounge, nowadays that option is not open!

I noticed the article about the club's closure in tonights Evening Depress, the journo's in Aberdeen have obviously found pprune as they quoted replies from this thread once or twice! ;)

P.S If it's where Aberdeens self proclaimed 'Aviation Expert-Jim Ferguson' gets his info then can I just say now that you are a complete tw:mad:

[gasax]

Ah youngskywalker, you need to meet that gentleman in the flesh and then understand his background.

I have and I must admit I was genuinely shocked (which takes a bit these days!). Living proof that journalism really is dead (well actually just staffed by the ignorant and the lazy who are loking for something to copy and paste) and hence the rise of the pundit.

[youngskywalker]

Indeed, I've been on the receiving end of his journalistic talents, or lack thereof. I really hope I never meet him!

I'm fairly confident that he will read this too!:ok:

[Mister Geezer]

This is a great shame but sadly it had to be on the cards for some time though. I initially learned to fly in Aberdeen and once I got my commercial licence I spent a period instructing there which on reflection is some of the most fun I have had in my flying career since I started. I continued to do it part time once I stepped into the airline world too. Memories of turning final over the cricket pitch for Runway 34 as well as other 'exploits' will be remembered for some time! It was a great place to work at and the flying was great as well. However the social side was just as good and that is what it will be remembered for most of all!

[papa600]

Would these "exploits" include Formation flying C152's in a flypast at ABZ ..... you really had to be there to believe someone had the brass neck to ask ATC for it!

[papa600]

There is no problem :p ... it was tongue in cheek to an ex instructor. Thanks for clarifying the ATC position chapter and verse though:ok:

[Front Row]

Aaaaahhhhh Memories.

Sad to hear the news....I helped build the clubhouse structure in the late eighties (Pegasus days). Anyone wish to guess which Hotel in Aberdeenshire the bar came frrom ??? :)

[gasax]

Given Peter Forbes care with his money (but not other peoples'), I'm guessing it was 'acquired'.

How and where I'd be interested to know!

[youngskywalker]

Hmm, at a guess I'd say the Dyce Skean Dhu? I helped build the briefing rooms about 8 years ago!

The 'bar' was only recently ripped out by Signature in an attempt to make the place look more business like, for the crews from the vast squadrons of Gulfstreams we have now! :ok:

[Front Row]

The Bar

Well, Peter knew that the Thainstone House Hotel was getting a revamp, and the bar was getting ripped out, so a trusty band consisting of a couple of club regulars , a joiner, and myself (weekend fueller, plane cleaner, will do anything for flying hours, etc.) were despatched off to Inverurie on a "search and rescue" mission to "bring it home." Once installed, it actually looked good at the back end of the room.

Anybody know what happened to it when Signature ripped it out......maybe worth giving the Thainstone a call to see if they want it back !!!! :p :p

[NorthSouth]

This is so sad. I've just heard that all the light aircraft are being chucked out of Longside too.
NS

[tuscan]

Sad news but not surprising in todays GA climate.
I also learned to fly at Aberdeen Flying School at the end of the nineties and early millenium, in fact I was brought up just around the corner and can not imagine passing by without seeing light aircraft parked up.

Its not as if theres loads of space on the apron for Bizzies beyond Echo 1, I wouldve thought they would be better off keeping a few wee toys there and get some form of income from it but then again I do not know the whole story.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about ABZ not being that busy, reffering also to the London airports, are they forgetting the offshore heli traffic?

Anyway sorry to hear the news, good luck everyone in relocating.....

[papa600]

Unless someone knows something I don't! ..... GA is NOT being thrown out of ABZ ..... no one that I know of is "relocating" ..... the Flying Club has closed down as it was economically unviable partially caused by an increase in costs levied by Signature and probably more importantly not alot of customers willing (or able) to pay £190 per hour plus £21 landing fee .... IF they could find an instructor. The remaining private aircraft and flying groups can park on the Apron if they wish to stay although they too have to pay the new rate.

[youngskywalker]

Sadly, because they have nowhere near here to relocate to, or I'm sure they all would!

The guys at Signature are all nice people, I'm sure it's not been done out of malice towards the club, just a change of direction now that the airport has expanded and become too busy. Even the commercial helicopter companies struggle to get circuit training done without huge delays, hence the investment in new simulators up here.

For me, it's worth the drive to Dundee, only £140 per hour to hire an aerobatic grob, and no landing fee. Amazing that a little city like Dundee has had such a successful flying club for so many years. I guess partly due to a smaller GA airport, no controlled airspace and also the air cadet contract which has kept the money flowing in. If only Aberdeen had a suitable alternative airfield near by, with the money up here I'm sure it would do okay, just look at how busy HJS helicopters are at Peterculter.

[excrewingbod]

I have fond memories of my PPL training at the club back in 2000. Although I never managed to complete my training the instructors were great and the banter was superb.

NorthSouth - what is happening at Longside then?

[Slopey]

Just out of interest, what kind of prices would you pay to park an aircraft at other airports? Is £200pcm/£2.4k pa high, or in line with other places?

[Mister Geezer]

papa600

Would these "exploits" include Formation flying C152's in a flypast at ABZ ..... you really had to be there to believe someone had the brass neck to ask ATC for it!

I may have been involved in some of the formation flying activities! ;) Not sure why a brass neck was needed since we were simply enjoying our flying and all these activities were done when we were on our own! However quite a few of my exploits were done in order to get me out of the road at the request of ATC. :ok: Looking back I am glad that I have these memories of happy times at the 'Flying Club' since as I said, they are the most fun days of my flying career and that is now after nearly 5 years of airline flying.

One of the funniest stories involved a few of my former colleagues who were flying together and were returning to Aberdeen from Dundee (from memory) on a maintenance ferry flight. To add some spice to the flight, they thought they would fly below radar cover right until they reached the zone boundary near Portlethen and then pull up into radar cover and contact ATC just before they entered controlled airspace for joining clearance. For some of the trip they were possibly looking up at the tops of the cliffs as they tracked north whilst offshore. ;) After pulling up into radar cover and making contact on 'Aberdeen Approach', one of my former colleagues asked the ATCO (who they knew and lived on the coast near Stonehaven) how long he knew about them before they called up and was expecting to be told that the poor ATCO had no warning whatsoever due to no radar cover! They were obviously a tad surprised when the ATCO remarked that he had been expecting them for a few minutes before they called, however the ATCO remarked that his wife had phoned him at work and commented that she had just looked out of the house and seen a light aircraft level with the house whilst plodding up the coast!

Priceless....

[bad bear]

Why not move the flying club to Fordoun or Edzell ? Possibly share one of the above airfieldswith microlights, parachutists, gliders and models ? It would be much more fun .

bb

[awqward]

Sad to hear the club is closing. I converted my Aussie licence to a UK licence there in the late nineties with Bill Anderson - a real gentleman. The club was friendly and flying in Scotland was a fantastic experience. I loved flying G-NERI before someone ran it out of fuel and wrote it off... Regards, Anthony Quick

[Slopey]

Why not move the flying club to Fordoun or Edzell

Dunno about Edzell, but Fordoun is covered in containers/equipment/machinery and is definately unavailable for use by aircraft.

[bad bear]

I am sure the farmer would move the containers etc if someone were to offer similar money to that which was being paid to ABZ airport. Last time I landed there the runway was not great but was useable. Edzell has had a lot of the radar stuff removed and given the hard time farmers are having (I am from a farming family) a bit of extra money might make a new airfield open up.Farmers are quite keen on diversification
bb

[Slopey]

How long ago did you land there??? There's buildings and all sorts of stuff along the entire length - see the satellite pick on live.com:

Web browser and Live Maps are incompatible (http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=56.8856~-2.409675&style=h&lvl=16&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&where1=Fordoun&encType=1)

That's pretty much how it still is. It's a retail/business 'park' now with several businesses on site.

[youngskywalker]

For flight training you still need to operate from a licensed airfield, but I believe that under EASA that may change in the future. Edzell would be prefect if somebody could convert it back to it's former use.

[MIKECR]

Edzell has about 600 metres of useable runway. I measured it not less than 2 months ago on behalf of a friend. The tarmac is in good condition and would take any light aircraft no problem. The trees to the south end of the runway would cause a few problems though, they must be 50 to 100 feet tall. I did hear however that more pipe's were going to be stored there, but not sure if thats for definate. Theres also the problem of no hangerage.

As for Fordoun, forget it, theres nothing left usable there.

[papa600]

Why would a flying club with no instructors succeed at Edzell anymore than one with no instructors at ABZ?

[papa600]

Mr Geezer ......

However quite a few of my exploits were done in order to get me out of the road at the request of ATC.

Ah - that would explain turning finals over the numbers!:ok:

[youngskywalker]

Plenty guys up here would gladly renew old instructor ratings if a really good facility were to become available nearby. They simply let the ratings lapse as the effort and cost involved in renewing them was not worth what they got back from a few odd hours of holding at echo one for a slot to depart at Aberdeen. I dont know how long ago you trained at Aberdeen papa600, but only a few years ago we had plenty part time instructors up here.

[papa600]

Not that long ago YSW I was learning when there were at least half a dozen instructors available and more or less always two on duty over a weekend and during the week on demand. However most (all?) of these guys now have airline jobs and there was no one else coming in to replace them (young wannabe's doing the hour building as instructors). I went to enquire about converting to the Warrior 18 months ago and was given a list of mobile telephone numbers of instructors and told that was the best way of contacting them. It took a couple of weeks to tie someone down to doing the conversion. If I was learning how does that provide adequate / suitable training?

I think it is really sad that there is no longer a training organsation at ABZ as that is where the future GA community lies. I can't see anyone relocating to ABZ with a new group or with a private A/C if they have not learned there or there is no bonafide club established.

However I still maintain that the Signature issue, although real and significant, is a bit of a smokescreen for more fundemental problems resulting in the clubs demise i.e. no "readily available" instructors, no structure as a club and ultimately no client base.

I think it was a brave attempt by Grampian to keep the club running in some form and they are to be commended for that but ultimately it was not a suitable format for a training organisation and flying club other than for renters of whom there were not enough to sustain a business.

[kui2324]

There are plans afoot to create a club in Aberdeen initially for the social side of aviation. It will be open to anyone who wishes to join. Details are going to be available soon.

It is unlikely that this will be a Flying Training Organisation - there are no available aircraft and given the past difficulties with costs (parking £200 per month, fuel prices etc), and the usual 'how to make a small fortune in aviation ...' caveat, unless one of the members wins the lottery that may not change for the near future.

It costs not insignificant amounts of money for instructors to keep up their rating. When moving to their first type rated jobs all the instructors have been enthusiastic to keep up something which they have enjoyed but when the time comes for them to renew it isn't cost effective for them! And I don't blame them, there are much more important things for them to be spending their money on ;)

As one of the group owners I understand exactly how much it costs to run an aeroplane. Not withstanding the £20 + landing fees, the costs of holding at E1 for traffic for 40 mins, only being able to do one circuit in an hour, not being able to get in the circuit due to other traffic, the parking costs, no permanent maintenance facilities ...

There are many reasons why it's been so hard to run a club in Aberdeen. But it does all boil down to money. So, which of you won the lottery last night? :)

[Gelande Strasse]

I too am sorry to hear of the club's demise. I started flying with Pegasus in 1983 and remember it fondly especially G-BFJM and my first solo (I seem to remember it was destroyed in an accident at Aboyne).Kevin Wigginton and Fiona Payton (nee Fraser) where are you now?GS

[gasax]

There is a thread in aviation history etc which has some history on the various people associated with the club(s) over the last 20 plus years.

But in that time I don't think there has been a period of more than 3 years where it has had a single corporate owner since Peter Forbes. That must say that Signature whilst the instigator of this last change are only one factor.

It is a difficult environment due to the amount of commerical traffic and the various parties involved - most of whom see light aircraft as no more than an inconvenience. Aberdeen is not a terribly 'clubby' type of place, the microlight club has had a few ups and downs, the PFA/LAA Strut is now dead.

Only fairly deep pockets (initially) and real determination are likely to make a success of things there.

[silverstreak]

It is indeed sad that yet another flying club / group has 'closed up shop'.

Scotland in general, has a poor choice of 'airfields' for General Aviation type aircraft. In fact, I would say VERY LIMITED... Outwith the majors, there is barely a handful of alternatives - and the alternatives are not exactly cheap!

Compare the airfields in England, Ireland and Wales that are 'welcoming' to the GA community. Yes, there is probably more demand at these other locations (especially in England), but it doesnt mean that there is no demand here in Scotland.

The CAA (Campaign Against Aviation) dont help either, with fees for this and fees for that - fine, but at the prices they charge and some of the rules they impose, its a wonder there is any GA flying in the UK at all...

In the US, GA is encouraged, and promoted at all levels. Granted the weather is fairer, fuel is cheaper as is ACFT hire. Communities are even built around airfields with housing and hangarage located around the runways. Phoenix AZ, has a good few of these.

One really good but restricted 'airfield' is Kirknewton, just outside of Edinburgh by East Calder. Very limited in what you can and cant do there, but a welcoming atmosphere and good bunch of flyers.

Maybe a petition should be launched in favour of GA at bigger airfields. It brings in good money for the airfield, and assocoated companies.

YES, it sometimes 'gets in the way' of commercial aircraft but hey, thats life. We dont ban cyclists from the roads do we? We all enjoy flying and at different levels, so why should the GA community suffer...

[dont overfil]

GS
I can't believe you had a soft spot for G-BFJM.
DO.

[Gelande Strasse]

I can't believe you had a soft spot for G-BFJM.


DO
Well they say you remember your first! :cool:

Looking back in my log book I also see G-BEWP and G-BFFY, was it so long ago?

Sorry to read about the passing of Peter Forbes too, fondly remebered trips in the Tiger.

GS

[Front Row]

I too am sorry to hear of the club's demise. I started flying with Pegasus in 1983 and remember it fondly especially G-BFJM and my first solo (I seem to remember it was destroyed in an accident at Aboyne).Kevin Wigginton and Fiona Payton (nee Fraser) where are you now?GS


GS.

It was G-BEWP that was destroyed at Aboyne when it flipped onto its back It was still at Perth in use as an instructional airframe in 2006.
G-BFJM survived another few years ( and an encounter with telephone lines at Insch) before being written off in 1990.
G-BFFY, despite not being incident free over the years, still survives, as does G-TYGA, which I always enjoyed flying.
Kevin is alive and well, with BMI flying Airbuses out of Edinburgh, while I think that Fiona moved to the States with her Husband - whether she is still flying or not I'm not sure.

[dont overfil]

'JM was finally destroyed following the accident when the firemen set fire to it while disconnecting the battery.
DO.

[Sir George Cayley]

Funnily enough salvation may come from the grey suits in the grey Belgrano, HQ of the Campaign...

They came up with a consultation recently about allowing training from unlicensed strips; LAASI or something like that:confused:

If iit goes ahead then ABZ, INV etc will loose out.

You all wrote in support didn't you?

Sir George Cayley

[Hyperborean]

If, and I suspect it is still if, the powers that be decide to allow flying training at unlicensed airfields it can only be a good thing in my opinion. I am just finishing a 40 odd year career in ATC and have witnessed ga and training being pushed out of airfield after airfield as it becomes less and less practical to integrate these activities with busy commercial traffic. I have felt for a long time that basic training, say up to first solo, should be outside regulated airspace and non radio. The idea being to get airmanship back in the cockpit, ie fly the aircraft, look out of the window and develop situational awareness. Then progress to the mixed traffic, rt and ATC. I have a great deal of sympathy with the school of thought that believes ATC is a nuisance to most recreational flying. It's not ATC's fault it's the way we are regulated. An additional benefit of non licensed airfields is that they are cheaper to operate.

[Khaosai]

Hi,

pretty sure it was G-BFJM that was destroyed out west. I was working that day and drove out to the location, cant remember exactly where tho. The guy flying, JT still flying commercially.

Rgds.

[Front Row]

Khaosai,

Hi there, Not sure if it's the Aboyne incident that you're referring to by "out West," but if it is it was definately WP...I was working for the club at the time. If that's not the one, then sorry if I've picked you up wrong, and could you let me know which one you are referring to.

Like GS, I also did my first solo in JM in '85. I was out of Aberdeen by the time JM was destroyed and am not sure of the circumstances, but going by DO's post, I would surmise that it had an accident and was subsequently destroyed by fire. If so, can anyone fill in the details on where / how etc.

Thanks.

[dont overfil]

Can't find the details on AAIB website but from memory here goes.
G-BHJM crashed after failing to climb sufficiently following a practice forced landing. On board was an instructor and student or it could have been mutual flying during the instructor course.
Rising ground on the climbout was given as the cause. I think this may have occurred in the vicinity of Bennachie. The aircraft was probably repairable until the fire service turned up and cut open the cowling and while cutting the battery connections caused a spark which set fire to the aircraft.
At this time the flying club at Aberdeen was owned by Tayside Aviation and the accident probably occurred between 1990-1992.
I flew 'JM a few times when it was based at Dundee and I always remember it as the dog of the fleet with a poor climb and an iffy radio. In fact it flew like a seagull...........with a bag of chips under one wing!
DO.

[Khaosai]

Hi,

that sounds about right. Rising terrain whilst on a PFL. Commercial GFT sortie at the time. I took lots of pics that day but JT has them now as a reminder to how lucky both he and the student were.

Was pretty close to the Loch of skene i think.

[Front Row]

Thanks for that DO, fills in the blanks.

JM never seemed to have the rate of climb that it should have possessed, and indeed didn't seem to fly quite right after going through the wires at Insch, during it's days with Pegasus. As my noble steed for my first solo though, it does hold fond memories !!

[startall4]

I worked for Peter as a general dogsbody then instructor from 1977 until the end of 1979 when I went to do my commercial.
IIRC JM was the first of the 152's we got. Compared to the 150's (100hp Continentals) and the 150 Aerobats (130 hp Continental) (now that was a good a/c albeit without inverted oil and fuel) the 152 (110 hp Lycoming) was pretty gutless.
Kevin Wiggington is retired but still fying light a/c in the EDI area and Fiona is in Houston I think.