Authorities search for crashed plane near Mt Isa

[Capt Fathom]

From the ABC

Authorities search for crashed plane near Mt Isa

Posted 2 hours 48 minutes ago
Updated 1 hour 55 minutes ago



Emergency Management Queensland (EMQ) helicopters from Townsville and Cairns are flying to north-west Queensland to search for the pilot of a light plane that crashed this morning.

Department of Emergency Services spokeswoman Kylie McIntosh says the injured pilot called for help just before 11am AEST, but was only able to give a vague location of the crash site.

"He's believed to be somewhere near a station a couple of hours north of Mt Isa [according to] the reports that I have," she said.

"So It's quite vague, which is why we've sent out the EMQ choppers from Townsville and Cairns.

"The pilot of the plane did in fact contact aviation authorities in Brisbane.

"He said he was injured and unsure of his position."

[DH 200']

Plane crash pilot found alive near Mt Isa

Posted 37 minutes ago

A pilot has been found alive in north-west Queensland after crashing his plane this morning.
Police say the plane came down north of Mount Isa before 10:00am AEST.
It is believed the pilot made a call to authorities earlier in the day to alert them of the crash.
Police spokeswoman Xanthe Dines says details of the accident are still sketchy.
"A male pilot - who was also the sole occupant - is actually being transported to hospital at the moment," she said.
"He's reported to have serious injuries but is in a stable condition.
"The crash site was actually 50 kilometres north of Mount Isa in fairly rugged terrain.
"Police are currently at the scene and will obviously be commencing an investigation into the crash."

Source: ABC National News

[morno]

Anyone have any idea of the rego of the aircraft?

[mates rates]

it was a Savannah Air PA.31 don't know the rego

[lesgo]

I believe IHR........

[DUXNUTZ]

Glad pilot is ok. As soon as i heard the location i immediately thought of Savannah.

[B200MAN]

sure its not LJI

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Geez Lasio, I am losing it!

PA31 IHR(?) as I heard it. Story goes it had a double engine failure.

Dr :8

[Alice Kiwican]

If it's a double engine failure no twin is going to fly too far I would think! Let's stand by for the facts shall we......

[Lasiorhinus]

Double engine failure?

Ah, at least its safer than a single PT6 :}

[GoDsGiFtToAvIaTiOn]

Let's stand by for the facts shall we......

What the f*ck!

What does the"R" in the title of this forum stand for?

GG

[the wizard of auz]

Ah, at least its safer than a single PT6

OOooooh..........thems fighting words, them is youngun. :E

[RadioSaigon]

...story goes it had a double engine failure...Yeah, I reckon this is a rumour network. Now be it rumour or not, there is a very short list of things that will make a twin go quiet on both sides simultaneously.
One of them involves finger trouble, the other involves not having anything to be having finger trouble with.

How do I know this? Because a mate lost himself, 4 of his pax and a machine as a consequence of the 1st. The various quasi-political entities involved in the aftermath of that tried desperately to prove 'twere the other and as such an organisational issue, but the truth is there to be seen, if you look.

Both potential causes are easily fixed: for the 1st, keep in mind, if it ain't f'd, don't fix it... for the other put plenty in, land before you exhaust it.

Sadly, this is a situation all to often repeated. Experience can't be bought... or beat.

There are only 3 things in aviation you will ever find absolutely useless...

altitude above you,
runway behind you, and
air in your tanks...

Be careful out there.

[flying-spike]

Mate, you are missing your vocation. You should be working in the ATSB. If your report writing is as quick as your investigation you could clean up the backlog in no time.

[kaptaan]

Good one!! :D

[RadioSaigon]

I feel sorry for the pilot, I don't believe its his fault

'scuse me??? If the cause of this crash is as it seems it is, who's fault do you consider it to be??? Was there someone else managing the fuel supply to either the airframe or the engines??? I think maybe you need a reality-check ballsdeep.

If your post was intended to lament the abysmal training standards evident within industry, you need to be clear on that. There are any number of threads running on that. Any pilot rated in a Chieftan (indeed, any aircraft) to single-pilot ops must be competent to operate that aircraft and take responsibility for their own mistakes.

Do you need someone to check and assume responsibility for your cleanliness every time you wipe your arse??? If not, don't try to absolve someone else of their responsibilities when they have screwed the pooch.

[tinpis]

I would have been wrapped if my first job was in a PA31.

Probably in a body bag.

[Aerodynamisist]

When the Whyalla airlines chieftain accident happened I swore that the pilot must of run out of fuel, I was very very wrong, and I did the wrong thing by a colleague who is no longer around to defend himself. So how about we wait till we get some facts before we hang this very lucky bloke, he is after all one of us.

[RadioSaigon]

a valid point Aerodynamisist, but (and it's a huge but) in the Whyalla crash, both engines did not stop simultaneously -one kept running until lack of maintenance, poor in-flight decision making and planning and poor engine handling dealt to it too. Whilst on the face of it the parallels may exist, it's a huge stretch to assume that similar events occurred here, particularly given the lack of any supporting evidence.

[Sexual Chocolate]

My heart goes out to the little dude who pranged this one, a hell of a nice guy with what sounds like some very nasty injuries. With the experience he has just been through and the pain he will go through during his recovery, I'll be seriously surprised if he EVER flies again. A real shame for this bright, impressionable young man who, given the right environment and circumstances might have gone on to lead himself a successful career in avaition. Instead, there goes years of flying training and thousands of dollars and one kid's dreams. I hope i'm wrong.

Personally knowing the pilot in question, I would not be at all surprised if this one was put down to mismanagement of the fuel system. But in saying that, i'm not for a second saying that I believe it's his fault.

It's like giving some kid a basic drivers licence and then throwing them in a V8 supercar, out on the track in live competition with nothing but a few hours basic instruction. Then all of a sudden, the kid flies off the track and crashes into a wall. Gee, I WONDER WHY THE FCK HE CRASHED??? Sure, there are technical explinations for what he did wrong but there is one glaringly obvious answer that everyone is overlooking. Who was the _ucking Knob who was supposed to be in a position of responsibility and knowing full well the fate they were tempting, put him there in the first place?

Say you walked up to a 200 hour pilot and offered them a job on the Concorde. Think there would be anyone out there who would say 'no thanks, that's a bit beyond my capabilities right now. I want to spend some time building experience on less complex aircraft first". Yeah right. So long as 200 hour wonders continue to receive offers for these positions, they will continue to accept them. Some of these pilots will have natural talent, a history of good, quality training and a lot of luck and pull it off. Others might have a history of crap training, won't be quite as capable or quite as lucky and this will continue to happen.

Wanna blame someone? Blame the crap instructors who taught him. Blame the operator who should know better but continues to recruit cheap 200 hour wonders who are well out of their depth. But don't blame the starry eyed kid who just wanted to be cool like the rest of us. He is the last one who should have known better.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Aerod, ditto on that one! However, Radios reply is equally valid.

When engines stop on final approach, or at the same time in a twin, most would assume they were sucking air (and they would be right most of the time), until proven otherwise. Those of us who speculated were wrong in the case of Whyalla, and apparently in the case of the C207 that went into the swamp at YBTL. The jury is still out on the 777 at LHR, but it is interesting that the fleet were not grounded while the cause of the engines failing to spool up was determined (I thought about that one recently while crossing the Atlantic to LHR in a 777.

If speculating on the cause of a prang gets people thinking and helps one pilot avoid the same fate - then I think that is OK.

Will be interesting to get the whole story, but I do have some sympathies for young pilots struggling with the challenges of GA commercial ops. These days I only fly privately in the FTDK, when I mostly depart with full tanks and the Garmin 496 reminds me of my fuel management responsibilities every 30 min.

I have only had two fuel "incidents" in twins.

One was at night when a pilot newly rated on the Aztec turned the fuel off instead of changing tanks. Fortunately I had suggested he staqger the tank changes by 5 minutes (as has always been my practice after reading in the Crash Comic about a Queenair that went it at night with a double engine failure due to fuel starvation - and plenty of fuel on board), so we only had one failed engine to deal with.

The other one was when the CP gave me a 402 with less than full tanks but supposedly a known amount of fuel on board after a previous flight. The charter was out and back to a remote cattle station. Outbound I had some concerns about the fuel on board as indicated by the guages and rang the CP before departing homeward to again assure myself that there was sufficient fuel on board. TOC I changed one side onto a tank that should have had 45 min in it - and the engine stopped 5 min later. A quick diversion into Charlie's Trousers solved the probem. The CP swears to this day that the aeroplane had sufficent fuel for the flight - and I am equally adament that it didn't.

I feel for those who do the fuel/payload shuffle everyday, with 30 year old equipment.

Digital fuel flows such as the Shadin in my Bo should be mandatory. Seems to me that this is one area where technology has made life a great deal easier. The question "do I have enough fuel onboard" is easily answered. A GPS will tell you your ETA to the minute and a Shadin type fuel flow meter should tell you what fuel is on board and exactly what your endurance is.

Dr :8

Oh - and stagger your tank changes in case you still get it wrong.

[flying-spike]

Just to set you straight(if possible). I am a trained investigator and that training wasn't obtained watching Air Crash Investigator or any other TV show but an accredited accident investigation institution OS. So if anybody would be making the tea it would be you. But then again I wouldn't give you a job. To put it succinctly, pull your head in and let the professionals do what they are trained for.

[Flying Binghi]

A note for the new pilot of a lighty in a new, to them, aircraft -

ForkTailedDrKiller has foregotten to mention that before you trust any fuel flow indicator - first check it has been calibrated correctly. I have paxed in an aircraft simular to mine that the fuel totalizer showed unusualy low fuel flow to power settings - the owner said he just had not got around to calibrating it yet and did'nt use it.

One way to check the calibration is to read the expected fuel flow/power settings section of the flight manual (if there is one) or do a post flight fuel burn cross check.

[flying-spike]

Accepted. White and 2,
Cheers;)

[JIM1984]

Aviation seems to have way to many experts wouldnt you say!!! I know the particular pilot in question here, and can I just say that he is very lucky indeed to have come out of it in one piece. Thank god. But out of respect for him and the operator can the speculation be kept to minimum.;)

[Flying Binghi]

can the speculation be kept to minimum

Prudent advice there :)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Prudent advice there :)

or Pprunedent advice?

Dr :8

[Brian Abraham]

one kept running until lack of maintenance, poor in-flight decision making and planning and poor engine handling dealt to it too
RadioSaigon, there is absolutely no evidence that Ben Mackiewicz mishandled the cards with which he was dealt. At least the ATSB and the Coroner could find no reason from my reading.

[Flying Binghi]

or Pprunedent advice?


LOL, which be yours FTDK ;)

[bushy]

I agree with much of what you say. GA is undervalued, by too many and only considered as a training ground for airline pilots.
There was a time when it was possible to make a reasonable living in GA (but very few did in the cities). My first logbook had about 5000 hours, most of which was single time. But I earned a reasonable wage. Jobs were few, but you could make a living.
Then our clever government introduced an allowance which allowed any company that bought new equipment to get huge tax concessions which nearly paid for the aeroplane. So we had every tax dodger setting up a charter company, and buying an aeroplane. A charter licence went with most aircraft sales. They were easy to get. So there were accountants, bookies and used car dealers, beekeepers,and womens underwear salespeople running charter companies. The aeroplane sales people did well as they always used new aircraft for charter (their demonstrators) and did very little maintenance. They sold them before they got rattley. They could undercut other charter operators. They also ran flying schools and trained as many pilots as they could. The airlines only needed a few each year, but lots and lots were trained, looking for that lucrative jet job.
So we had lots of new aeroplanes, charter companies, lots of pilots, and the oil exploration started. Freebies for pilots. Free maps and charts, regs, renewals, flight tests. No landing fees. Boom times. False, short term boom times. Not much movement into airllines,so a stable, experienced group of career GA pilots, and new, better (big and small) aeroplanes coming regularly. Some airlines had a nice government subsidy.
Then it stopped. The ioil exploration stopped. The tax concessions stopped. And the landing fees came. And the tax dodgers sold their aeroplanes, which had not been maintained very well, when the engine overhaul became due. And the pilot's feeebies stopped.
But the flying schools still trained lots of pilots. And they rented aeroplanes to use for further ICUS sales, while doing charter in the outback.(and RPT it appears)
So, many pilots became desparate. They were unemployed and broke, but still believed that lucrative jet job was just around the corner. Some worked for little or nothing. One or two offered to buy jobs. The GA career pilots were quitting because they were being undercut by newbies from the coast.(most GA is in the outback)
So GA is left with a continual stream of new pilots, and the stable group of career GA pilots is almost gone. The experience level is not there any more. There is hardly anyone to lead the way. The airlines have recruited quite a few recently from GA, but seem to be relying on imports to get the experience they need. The age old system of relying on a huge pool of desparate GA pilots to meet their needs has failed them. GA pilots do not have Boeing endorsements.
A newly licenced CPL holder is usually a little bit out of his depth on his first job, even in a C206. The workload is often too high for them, and they need support. I'v seen aircraft taxying with baggage doors open, flipper doors open etc. It's not uncommon. It was generally accepted that the apprenticeship lasts 5000 hours.
They are nearly all apprentices now.

[Flying Binghi]

Then our clever government introduced an allowance which allowed any company that bought new equipment to get huge tax concessions which nearly paid for the aeroplane

Hmmm... concessions or subsidys - same-old, same-o ... theres allways some bright, new, poorly thought out idea getting introduced into Oz Av that ends up backfiring and costing us dearly :(

... what was the last bright idea ? ...airport privatisation :rolleyes:

[RadioSaigon]

Not going to argue with you Brian -and I'm certainly not going to address any personalities involved, but from my reading of the reports (admittedly some time ago) the overwhelming impression I have was of:

an airframe in desperate need of adequate maintenance, particularly the engines,
a poor decision to press on single-engine when viable alternates were nearby and available, and
the supposition that the live engine may have continued producing power were a lower power setting selected.Please note the third point is highlighted as supposition.

I'm of the opinion that Whyalla should be required reading for every aspiring twin pilot, accompanied with a thorough analysis and discussion. Another fatality that meets that requirement would be one that I was closely involved in -Foveaux Strait 1998. There are many others that would be excellent for initial and recurrent training scenarios for twin pilots, both VFR and IFR, covering almost every imaginable circumstance that if mishandled may lead to a fatality.

Nobody gains or learns anything if people that know get all prickly at the mere mention of an incident, personality or express an opinion contrary to the accepted wisdom. If you have been around this industry for long -as I suspect you may have been- then you will be aware of circumstances where the facts of an incident have been made to 'fit' the political agenda of whatever agency or individual stands to lose the most political currency. Again Foveaux Strait 1998 is a classic example of the fudging committed by Police, TAIC, CAA and whoever else perceived a benefit in jumping on their bandwagon.

There is learning in here for us all.

[morno]

PP as an operator, certainly does not gain any respect from me. As an above poster said, if he's going to continually pay pilots less than award (about half), then he deserves no sympathy. He deserves what he gets.

morno

[tinpis]

Bushy it was my experience during the 120% tax write off days for small town guys like newsagents and insurance agents just buy an new aeroplane and use a private pilot mate to operate them
Many a times I was asked for a charter quote only to have the reply "**** the newsagent does better than that!".
The DCA in those days were informed ad nauseum and of course were never seen
Whats new 30 odd years on?

[Dogimed]

Errr, Doc, I think your've confused one of your many aliases...


Dog

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Without the 120% tax write-off Austers, Moths and DH Rapides would still be the backbone of GA in Oz.

Dr :8

(Sh*t - wrong computer again!)

[Flying Binghi]

Without the 120% tax write-off Austers, Moths and DH Rapide would still be the backbone of GA in Oz.


...............why ?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Cause 100's of shiny new aircraft were brought into the country as a result of that scheme.

I got to fly many of them, ie I have flown more than 20 aircraft that had less than 100 hrs on the clock (a chunk of that being ferry time) - 4 x 210s, 1 x 206, 2 x 185s, 3 x 182s, 1 x BE36, 2 x M20s plus a gaggle of PA28s, C172s, 152s and 150s - but have not flown a brand spanking new aircraft since 1986.

That was the whole idea of the program - to encourage the modernisation of machinery and equipment across all industries.

Dr :8

[Flying Binghi]

ForkTailedDrKiller, I think Bushy is pionting out that it had to be paid for sometime - sort of like maxing out the credit card .... painfull days ahead.

Short term profits line the pockets of some, and win elections, though future generations pay the costs :(

[bushy]

Are you really saying that Australian business people have to have a handout before they will do anything?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Are you really saying that Australian business people have to have a handout before they will do anything?

No, but it helps if you want to stimulate investment in new plant and machinery.

There has been a similar scheme for investment in R&D in the past.

Dr :8

PS: New machinery and some investment in fuel management R&D may have prevented this event (takes care of thread drift!)

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

So without all the Whyalla thread drift, anyone actually know what happened?

[Tmbstory]

We even used to teach people to fly at their own property, do all the theory requirements and leave their newly acquired aircraft at the property, upon our departure. It often took a month or two, but well worth the effort.

Tmb

[Fantome]

PP as an operator, certainly does not gain any respect from me. As an above poster said, if he's going to continually pay pilots less than award (about half), then he deserves no sympathy. He deserves what he gets.

morno

Yea, verily and forsooth. But how long will he hoodwinketh before he's found out?

[Brian Abraham]

anyone actually know what happened
The ATSB will let you know in due course. In the interim allow me a little thread drift to answer Radio Saigon
an airframe in desperate need of adequate maintenance, particularly the engines
Absolutely no evidence to support that belief. The ATSB report states the contrary.
a poor decision to press on single-engine when viable alternates were nearby and available
Airfields of Port Pirie and Kadina have no instrument approaches and weather was reported below the LSALT. Monday morning quarter backing.
the supposition that the live engine may have continued producing power were a lower power setting selected.
Please note the third point is highlighted as supposition.
What happened we will never know as you state. The root cause of the right engine failure can never be known.
Not entering an argument RS but merely offering my view and interested if you have facts to support otherwise. Its an accident very close to me.

[bushy]

The TIO540 is capable of running at max power for 50 hours with temperatures at red line. That was a requirement for it's certification.
But if you lean the mixture too much ??? at high power settings the temps will exceed redline, and something may melt.
The whyalla aeroplane had a melted poiston.

[VH-XXX]

This talk of fuel flow meters is a false sense of security. They don't tell you when you lose fuel over the side, eg, cracked tank, missing filler, overflow, pressurisation problems etc. I probably wouldn't be alive today if I did have a fuel flow meter because I would have trusted it on an occasion when I lost fuel overboard due to a mechanical issue - I would have wanted to keep going based on what the FFM was telling me...

[Brian Abraham]

The whyalla aeroplane had a melted poiston
If you recall there was much debate about the cause. John Deakin pointed the finger at the company leaning practices in the climb. It was noted in the ATSB report that the engine indicated that it had been running at a rich setting when it failed. Without FDR its anybodies guess.

[DUXNUTZ]

More than willing to wait for the investigation, just hope there is an investigation and not just shuffling of papers through a fax.

From what i understand didn't the pilot walk away? Or am i mistaken?

[bushy]

VH-XXX you have it right. If I remember right The 402C had fuel totalisers which gave a didital reading of fuel burn, or fuel remaining.
But all these whizzbang computer thingys are not much use if they do not have the right information to start with.
Garbage in =garbage out. You have to look in the tanks.

Recently there have been some embarresing moments for the pilots of aircraft that had nice digital stuff that gave garbage out.

[Capt Fathom]

If I remember right The 402C had fuel totalisers which gave a didital reading of fuel burn, or fuel remaining

Not in any 402C I flew. Perhaps an optional extra!

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Morno,

Whilst i agree that many organisation pay a disgustingly low wage, the operator you speak of, last time I checked, is a QLD registered company and not a signatory to the AFAP Award.

So the long and short of it is that he is not required to, if pilots are stupid enough to work for less than what you or I consider a decent wage, well that is their problem, and yes they are the idiots that keep erroding the possibility of our industry being respectable.

What really puts a smile on my face is how some of these operators that have been taking the piss out of their employees by offering terrible conditions etc etc, are now the ones bitching and moaning about staff shortages, pay peanuts, get monkeys.

[RadioSaigon]

Perhaps an optional extra!

There was one on an a C that I used to fly, but I'm pretty sure it was an after-market addition. Useful tool I thought.

[stick&rudder15]

Ran the aux dry one engine started to go called pan pan theN the other engine went. Didnt switch to mains, due panic, put it in 13nm out of YBMA. No pax on board thank god. Regards the operator you may bag him but thats cause you have 750 hours and are driving a 206 in Broome with twin progression very far away.

[morno]

S&R, can assure you that I have a lot more than 750hrs, am a long way from Broome, and have plenty of twin time, :E

LHRT, I agree with what you're saying, but it still doesn't sit right with me, regardless of whether he's required to or not. And you're right, those who take him up, deserve everything they get for accepting such stupidly poor conditions, given the availability for jobs these days.

morno

[tinpis]

Old Confucian proverb.

Thlink tlaining not chleap?
Tly having flucking accident

[neville_nobody]

A newly licenced CPL holder is usually a little bit out of his depth on his first job, even in a C206. The workload is often too high for them, and they need support.

Mate that is the biggest load of tripe I've ever heard. Are you one of those guys who talk up the PA-31 like it's the SR-71?

The biggest problem I saw in GA is a lack of discipline not experience. No matter what level of experience if you are disciplined and do things the way you are supposed to you shouldn't get yourself into to much trouble. Blasting off with doors open has nothing to do with experience but discipline. Same with fuel management. I know people who have screwed up fuel management because they got complacent and didn't do things the way they were supposed to. Things like not changing to mains at ToD or not doing fuel logs are usually the biggest culprits. GA aircraft are not difficult to fly on the whole, some of them have a few quirks but if you are disciplined about it you won't get yourself into to much difficulty.

[27/09]

Ran the aux dry one engine started to go called pan pan theN the other engine went. Didnt switch to mains, due panic, put it in 13nm out of YBMA

If this is what really did happen, then I have serious questions about the pilots ability or his training and I don't mean the training on the PA31. What should the first thing on the list when trouble shooting an engine failure..... FUEL!!!!!!!!

I also agree with Nevile Nobody

No matter what level of experience if you are disciplined and do things the way you are supposed to you shouldn't get yourself into to much trouble. Blasting off with doors open has nothing to do with experience but discipline. Same with fuel management. I know people who have screwed up fuel management because they got complacent and didn't do things the way they were supposed to. Things like not changing to mains at ToD or not doing fuel logs are usually the biggest culprits. GA aircraft are not difficult to fly on the whole, some of them have a few quirks but if you are disciplined about it you won't get yourself into to much difficulty.

[DUXNUTZ]

Could be faulty fuel selector or something. Wait before you burn the poor pilot.

[27/09]

Could be faulty fuel selector or something.

Don't think so. You would need two faulty selectors to get a double engine failure.

Stick and Rudder's post indicates he knows what happened.