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hugofly
14th Jul 2008, 16:53
After sending CV and application to Vistajet,Austria; received an email requesting copies of: current CRM, current Dangerous goods, current Fire Fighting, RVSM and Long Range.:confused:
I have none of those! as a high time instructor with no jet experience, and understood that those trainings were normaly provided by the compagny who hire you.
Is it a normal requirement in Austria and Germany, as i seem to understand?:ugh:
If so, where do we get those completed? (other than in Goeth language, as my german is not up to professional study level):O
And last, is it a simple way to weed out unexperience pilot? or the cost of training has been bumped up a notch for professionnal pilot?:=

I know a previous post requested the same informations, but no reply provided them!!!

ABO944
14th Jul 2008, 16:57
I also applied to this company and spent a lot of time scanning the required documents. I had all bar two ... RVSM and Long Range certificates. Having flown a regional turboprop, it's understandable why I didn't have them.

Mrs :confused: wasn't happy and wouldn't accept my application without these 2 items !! Oh well ...

mierda
14th Jul 2008, 17:45
I went through the same thing... I even asked the lady if she could tell me where to do them, but no reply!

Flintstone
14th Jul 2008, 18:05
Is it my imagination or are Austrian and German bizjet companies the worst in Europe?

Whenever anyone discusses pay and T&C's they're at the budget end of the market with poor rosters. This thread isn't the only one lately where I've heard of them treating applicants badly then today I was told an absolute horror story involving unpaid salary and foundless threats (from an Austrian) company.

Why are they so bad?

Doodlebug
14th Jul 2008, 18:40
Flintstone, there is a German phrase that broadly applies to modern society in Germany and to a much-lesser extent to Austria. "Neid und Missgunst". It refers to the all-pervasive envy evident in these countries which goes a long way to answering your question. As well as, for example, why owning a private jet is considered a big no-no by the Gesellschaft, even today. :yuk:

OneIn60rule
14th Jul 2008, 19:44
What they want from applicants is someone with some time on jets.
Just having a total time of 500-1000 hours is not enough.

I had the same e-mail from this "lady".

Please forward your dangerous etc.
A minute later another e-mail arrived stating: Sorry to inform you that we require applicants that have 500 hours total time (including jet time).


1/60

His dudeness
14th Jul 2008, 20:41
Flintstone:

We germans are gruel - our operas last 3 or 4 days - a certain englishman noted once - so we abide gruelty to our employees.
And Austrians are at nearly germans - they will never admit that, but...

Said gentleman also said: "bloody germans, cant take a yoke!" - never was a truer word spoken!


Doodlebug, bollocks.

Nothing to do with that phrase, the right one is: "geiz ist geil" - roughly to be translated into: "its sexy to be miserly". (Saturn electronics shop slogan)

They (VistaJet) and the like operate for owners, keeping their expense as low as poss makes them a euro.


Now seriously, that seems to be a fancied approach to newbies: they have to have everything and a lot of experience. And it also establishes a great company culture of love and passion for the company.

Maybe they just test if you are willing and prepared to go the extra mile? After paying everything up front yourself you should be deep enough in the debt to do anything they want you to do? Just speculating here, please take note!


@hugofly: try FlightSafety Paris, they might also teach in a language more suitable for you, or maybe an operator that would allow you to sit in their class. Firefighting we had mostly organized by airport firebrigade - try that somewhere close to you.
In germany the cirriculums would have to be approved by the authority first, seems not to be the case in Austria? I would not wonder if they would not care, because: dös is a schaaas.

Flintstone
14th Jul 2008, 20:53
I understand the concept of making a profit but I just get the impression that the pay in these two countries is lower than elsewhere and the companies seem to treat their employees and applicants less favourably.


hugofly. If you can't find somewhere nearer home TAG at Farnborough run all the courses you need.

INNflight
14th Jul 2008, 21:11
they're at the budget end of the market with poor rosters

I don't know the current salaries for VJ, but the short/mid haul crews usually get 7 on 5 off with positioning flights on the first and last day, so that doesn't sound too bad in my newbish opinion? :} About what NJE has, right?

I've worked together with VJ several times this year (not as flight crew or direct company employee but errr.... contracted you could say) and they paid well, paid on time and are friendly folks, both management and crews... :8

reading your experiences of course makes me think it's not all sunny in Salzburg / Munich / Nuremberg / Vienna :E but hey, what company has that right...

Doodlebug
14th Jul 2008, 23:18
Moin Dudeness

"Geiz ist geil"? Ohne mich! Solch' beschissene Gehaelter und Dienstplaene gibt's ja wirklich NUR in Deutschland. Keiner goennt dem Naechsten was und dadurch sind die Durchschnittsgehaelter ja so ein Albtraum, es ist zum heulen!

But I suspect you're more on my side anyway.

Seriously though: ALL operators need to make their money by keeping their costs low. What is preferable, constantly haemorrhaging dissatisfied crew, or paying well and sticking to promises, thereby saving money substantially in the long-term by retaining satisfied crew willing to go the extra mile for a fair employer?

Treat me well and I'll work like a dog. Most crew I know think the same way.

INNflight
15th Jul 2008, 08:52
sticking to promises, thereby saving money substantially in the long-term by retaining satisfied crew willing to go the extra mile for a fair employer?

Treat me well and I'll work like a dog. Most crew I know think the same way.

Funny you say that, I got to jumpseat with one of their crews last week and the f/o just said exactly that. He sticks with the company because they never let him down and are a honest employer :}

Doodlebug
15th Jul 2008, 09:03
I should have clarified earlier. Not sniping at Vistajet in particular, spoke to some of their lads just the other day in Vnukovo and they seemed more-or-less happy. I am letting off steam regarding the generally far lower pay and worse conditions on offer throughout Germany and Austria, i.e. all companys, on average. How can a German company offer just 96000/annum, for example, when Global Jet will fork out 132000 for the same job? (And GJ is not the highest payer!)

Oh, and the surprise is great when nobody wants the seat. "Pilot shortage" is trotted out. :rolleyes:

Twin2040
15th Jul 2008, 10:36
Hi - what are package at Vistajet for LH. I do not hold copies of all my courses through the years. My MCC was a part of my Sim training/ typerating on a boeing. When I did a fire course, all I did was to sign a "been there" done that - I did not get a copy and it making you look somewhere stupid if you go to your current employer and ask for it - Looking for a new job ? Me ? no no ....

hawker750
15th Jul 2008, 11:20
The reason companies like new hires to have all the certificates is not simply a cost issue but a time one. In the G.A. business it is very common for job vacancies to come up at very short notice. To arrange CRM/RVSM/dangerous goods/Etc/etc/ can take a long time, suitable courses may not be available for weeks as few compaies hold authority to do in house training. Consequently the guy who has the certificates will have an advantage. Under JAR Ops (Now Eu ops) most authorities are cracking down on crews operating without ALL the certificates. (In the old days one could alway ask the CAA nicely for a couple of weeks leeway....not any more!)
It is advisable for all out there to obtain copies from your employer of these certificates for you to keep privately. Some companies may baulk at this but just cite the fact that you are just as responsible for the validity of your certificates as the AOC holder is and you want to keep a personal record.
We took on a guy recently who did have the certificates. It was a great help to us but we still would have employed him if he had not. For companies to make this a condition of employment are probably missing out on a high % of competent people and in my view is a rather arrogant attitude.
By the way, the best provider of these training requirements is TAG at Farnborough. They could do the lot in about 3 days at very reasonabe cost

Rieke
15th Jul 2008, 13:16
i also applied at this generous company. as TRE on 320 and 330 and instructor on 340 with 15.000 hrs+ the lady asked me to send copies of dgr, mcc, long range, rvsm etc.
the following conversation with this company was full of ignorance and arrogance
forget the micky mouse operation
by the way, i am german pilot
does anybody knows where airbus pilots are needed for coporate or private operation??

Doodlebug
15th Jul 2008, 13:35
Rieke, PM.

aviatn
15th Jul 2008, 14:38
I too could tell a story of VJ, but won't. Too many told as it is. Why fuel the fire?
Does anyone know of an operator, (besides VJ) looking for a LJ60 Co with quick possibility for an upgrade?
Thanks

CaptainProp
15th Jul 2008, 14:57
Hold on guys! :hmm:

Yes, the pay may or may not be the same as other operators and they may have an unusual requirement to supply documentation on all these mentioned courses. "Arrogant" recruitment people are more or less the industry standard. But to take these "facts" and turn around and say "the following conversation with this company was full of ignorance and arrogance
forget the micky mouse operation" sounds really bad in my ears. I know very little about VJ but reading previous posts and listening to people who have had anything to do with them warrants no such statements or conclusions.

Keep things real guys. If you don't like the sound of an operator that you have applied to, or are in the process of applying to, then send them a polite email stating that you have found another position and would like to withdraw your application. Simple as that.

Good luck to all.

CP

BlueSky777
15th Jul 2008, 19:09
Hi aviatn,

try Jetair in Germany. They are currently hiring for L60/XR. They are urgently in need of pilots with experience who can be upgraded right a way when fulfilling their requirements. See below:

JET AIR FLUG GMBH


Contact Information
JET AIR FLUG GMBH
BERNERSTR. 320
ZWEIBRUECKEN, Germany 66482
Tel: 49 633-256-86-80, 49 633 286 39-16 • Fax: 49 633-256-86-820
[email protected] ([email protected])

Good luck and many greetings,

His dudeness
15th Jul 2008, 22:40
"Geiz ist geil"? Ohne mich! Solch' beschissene Gehaelter und Dienstplaene gibt's ja wirklich NUR in Deutschland. Keiner goennt dem Naechsten was und dadurch sind die Durchschnittsgehaelter ja so ein Albtraum, es ist zum heulen!"

Correct, now I leaped the fence into a coorperate, 2 man show. Its way better than before. And I don´t look sideways nor to the greener other side grass. Told the boss what I´m worth, he never debated it really. Should have done that years earlier on.

"But I suspect you're more on my side anyway." Correct again.

Flints, I dunno wether its just the germans, but I think you are right.

CFW's
15th Jul 2008, 23:00
Unless you're a German, Swiss or Austrian national, forget it. VistaJet are only interested in hiring native German speakers already resident in the above 3 countries. 'Course, they're not allowed to advertise as such, but that's how it is. Like you, I was also invited to send copies of my certificates, logbook, medical etc which I did, only to be told that they were not hiring at the time....although I know of 2 people, both Austrian who have just had interviews with them, and another ( a German guy) who applied after me and has an interview in August!!

Hopefully things may change in the future, but for now....?:ugh:

DinoCraft9
21st Jul 2008, 20:18
I will share my experience with VJ:

I applied, sent all the copies, got an interview, then they changed the date cause, ooopps! it was bank holiday and they didn't realised! I finally attended to it and was spoken to as if were already in, no problem for being based in none of the countries somebody mention above... they even told me what day I was going to the course!
Now 3 weeks have gone and with them any hope for a call... so it seems to be their way. And by the way, the recruitment "Mrs" is VERY arrogant, she either doesn't know VJ needs loads of pilots or she works for some other operator :}.
The point is that offering such a poor package (for experienced FOs) they should be a bit more humble or less demanding.:=
I am not a german speaker and to be honest I am starting to think that this might have helped to the outcome of my interview, if so why was I invited at all?

Fortunatelly this is not the only way to do things, other companies out there are far away much more serious and treat candidates decently.:D

Happy landings!

dangerous Good
21st Jul 2008, 20:38
I was sent the following; To handle your CV please send asap documents' as follows:

~ Period of cancellation

Can anyone shed some light on what that means. Do they mean my notice period and if so do they want me to send a copy of my existing contract! Also what is a long range document?:bored:

Thanks

DG

max.aret
21st Jul 2008, 21:33
Yes, they mean notice period, and I doubt that they require a copy of your current contract (that would be EXTREMELY unusual).
Forget the Longe Range thing, that is only applicable if you hold a German ICAO (NOT JAA) licence.

By the way, pay seems to be rubbish: As a F/O on a 604 (1000h, non-rated) you will earn some 2.100 EUR after taxes and social insurances + 600 EUR in per diem. :D

dangerous Good
22nd Jul 2008, 07:23
Thanks max.aret

Did sound a bit strange. I think I'll stay put where I am. The money seems to be a lot better. :ok:

DG

max.aret
22nd Jul 2008, 08:42
I think it is not only about saving money but EARNING money. Keep in mind that Vistajet's aircraft - unlike DCA's - are not operated for their owners and charters are merely used to keep costs down, they are all charter only aircraft and have to make a profit at the end of the day.

Flintstone
22nd Jul 2008, 08:55
I've flown charter for a company that paid for ALL my qualifications so it can be done. Funnily enough they have a far better reputation than Vistajet appear to be developing.

If this thread is anything to go by all they are achieving is making pilots go elsewhere. Bit like Ryanair. Do they charge their passengers for Pringles too?