Rising avgas prices

[PompeyPaul]

I recently paid a whopping £1.65 / litre for avgas on Saturday. With GA under threat from property developers, extra legislation etc it seems to me the biggest threat to GA is now fuel prices.

What's your personal cut-off ? £2.00/litre ? £3.00litre ? At £3.00 a litre the fuel will actually cost MORE than the hire of the plane.

It already feels that there is more access to aircraft, at shorter notice. Whether that's to do with rising costs, or credit crunch, I don't know. I do wonder though, how many private pilots we'll have if this time, next year, we're at £2.50/litre for avgas....

[Rod1]

“It already feels that there is more access to aircraft, at shorter notice. Whether that's to do with rising costs, or credit crunch, I don't know. I do wonder though, how many private pilots we'll have if this time, next year, we're at £2.50/litre for avgas....”

We will have lots of pilots, but they will not be flying spamcans, which will become an endangered species.

Rod1

[airborne_artist]

I doubt many people have a personal cut-off in terms of £XX.XX/litre, but I guess people are quite likely to allocate £XXX to flying per month/quarter/year, and so will fly incrementally less as the price of avgas rises. Once their budget no longer gets them any realistic amount of flying at all then they'll give up, probably.

[A and C]

The oil price is suject to a lot of hype & speculation (a bit like the UK house maket) and will come down once the bubble has burst(just like the UK house market).

However I do feel that some airfields are fattening there profit margins and using the "oil price" as a smoke screen to do so.

[dont overfil]

Pompey Paul,
I said I'd give up drinking when I couldn't buy a pint and a packet of crisps for a pound.
DO.

[XL319]

Sandtoft is only £1.40 at the moment:ok:

[Oldpilot55]

The price of fuel becomes a serious safety issue. If you reduce your flying hours because of cost then you become a safety hazard to yourself and others.

[Captain Jock]

£1.65 per litre. If only. At my base field it is currently £1.83!!

[IFollowRailways]

One of the things I find most intriguing is the huge price spread between airfields. The low range appears to be about £1.40 (I personally know at least one airfield that this is the current price) and the top end price is around £1.85ish. That is a 45 pence spread on a product that has a limited number of "wholesalers", so it is probably reasonable to assume that the buy cost to any decent size airfield is very similar.

The only logical explanation is an ambitious pricing policy at some outlets - unless anyone else can explain it?

[Rod1]

I know very little about this but I think Avgas has quite a long “shelf life”. Part of the difference may be that there is different stock bought at different times at different prices.

Rod1

[matspart3]

In a rapidly rising market, volume affects retail price in an unusual way...if you bought your stock 3 months ago, you were paying at least 20ppl less wholesale...if you're buying 38 000 litres a week, like me, you have to pass the current upwards trend on...AVGAS used to be a money spinner, with no-one batting an eyelid at 30-40% margins....those days are long gone, trust me.

£1.71 inc VAT at Gloucester....discount on the landing fee for 50 litre, or more

[Blue Albatross]

Here in the Netherlands, is around €2.10 for a litre of Avgas, and Mogas isn't very much cheaper either. I've been lucky so far that the place I rent from has not increased their prices at all....YET!!! But even then, renting a C172 is pricy at €156 per hour.

My solution was to look for something that I could bimble about in and clock up hours and still enjoy flying, but at a fraction of the cost. So I went and bought a Robin ATL. Yes, she's not the fastest mare in the stable, but she sips Avgas and Mogas at a rate of 15 litres per hour, which makes flying an affordable €30 an hour for me. And if/when I need a bigger plane, I can rent the C172, but €70-€80 just for fuel, I know which one I'm better off flying when it comes to my wallet.

My suggestion is to look for alternatives. Look at your recent flying history. If you're like me and occaisionally take more than one PAX with you, then perhaps buying a share in an ultralight or sport plane might me a cost saving solution. We don't always need to fly at >110kts everywhere we go, and that might mean you can get more hours in the logbook at a reduced cost to yourself.

Just my two euro cents :-)

[Julian]

£1.82 at Doncaster on Sunday, bit of a shock when we used to pay about £1.28 at Sheffield before its demise.

I had to refuel our aircraft (PA28) as the previous user had forgotten to top her off, I get hell of a shock when the bill came to over £400! Good job I had just been paid!!!

J.

[IO540]

There seems to be a huge drop in activity in the bottom end of the GA scene (the Cessna/Piper/etc operators), with some people suggesting a reduction around 50%.

This is enough to make whole airfields (some airfields) go bust.

However one cannot separate out the effect of the big avgas price rise from the wider effect of the current incredibly gloomy emotional outlook, with property prices "plummetting" (which is actually GOOD because all the time you are moving UP you are better off with the property market being in the pits, but most punters are unable to detach themselves from the emotional aspect of their house going down in value) which tends to put a damper on any discretionary expenditure "in case things get really bad".

The converse applies and if people feel good they go out and spend some money.

Currently, you merely have to walk past a paper shop and look at the headlines, and any front page not covered by t*ts is covered by doom and gloom; even more than usual. They may as well give away some razor blades so the reader can slit his throat there and then.

However I see no drop in the higher up activity e.g. serious IFR capable planes/pilots, turboprops, jets.

[znww5]

Fuel costs (per litre inc VAT) at Wellesbourne are/were:

June - 1.53
July - 1.59
Aug - 1.67 (projected)

I'm sure these costs will accelerate the trend towards more economical and often quieter VLA / microlight aircraft - which is perhaps no bad thing.

However, I too am concerned that costs for the gas guzzlers will affect safety - and combined with the weather over the past couple of years this could impinge upon 'incident' statistics as pilots lose recency.

Perhaps we should have our salaries index linked to fuel prices :ok:

[IO540]

I'm sure these costs will accelerate the trend towards more economical and often quieter VLA / microlight aircraft - which is perhaps no bad thing

I am sure the above is true but these planes are a dead end when it comes to utility value.

Avgas goes up but so will airline prices so the benefit of being able to fly simply and quickly (no airport hassle) from the UK to France/Spain/Italy etc IFR will remain.

Also fuel price is only a part of the operating cost equation. A significant part but not dominant.

I think that the trick which GA airfields will need to work on is how to become "GA centres of excellence" with decent facilities for the upmarket traffic: piston IFR and upwards. I cannot help noticing how Shoreham for example is filling up with King Airs, TBMs and such. And there are now some decent IFR tourers there whereas say 5 years ago there were none. This is the only way forward.

The bottom end traffic (ultralights) have deserted the traditional GA airfield scene ages ago. Most of them don't want to pay any landing fees at all.

[Captain Smithy]

Last I heard (about 4-5 weeks ago) AVGAS at EDI was around £1.83/litre. Pity I don't have any shares in Oil/Fuel companies, or even any handling agents, they must be making a killing just now.

My wallet hurts. :ouch:

Smithy

[PlasticPilot]

Also fuel price is only a part of the operating cost equation. A significant part but not dominant.As a club pilot, I never tracked my costs per domain, except when I trained for my IFR rating. The FTO gave me detailled bills, and here is the cost breakdown, back in 2005:

45%: Aircraft (Bonanza F33) rental
29%: Instructor
14%: Landing, approach, parking, and customs fees
12%: FuelNote that during such training, the fees are higher than usual (short flights, with several approaches each). Rising costs is certainly a problem, but the fuel price is not (yet) the dominant part of the price.

[Rod1]

A typical 180 hp C of A single will come out at about;

Maintenance £4000 a year
Insurance £1500 a year
Fuel for 100 hours £6500

Parking will vary hugely from area to area, but in the midlands you are looking at about £2k.

A 100 hp Rotax permit machine

Maintenance £250
Insurance £1200
Fuel for 100 hours £1700
Parking £1000

In both cases above the fuel is the dominant price, assuming 100 hours a year. Even if you reduced it to 50 hours it would still be a huge chunk.

Rod1

[Shunter]

Rod, whilst you're clearly the patron saint of permits to fly, rotax and LAA isn't the answer for a substantial number of people. Everyone knows they're cheaper to run, but they're also severely restrictive for anyone who wants to do anything more than Mr+Mrs day VFR on a sunny Sunday afternoon.

The day a permit aircraft can fly at night, in imc, in airways, then I'll give them my full attention. Despite the odd whisper and rumour I can't see that happening anytime soon.

If you can afford to fly, fly. If you can't, don't.

[Katamarino]

The oil price is suject to a lot of hype & speculation (a bit like the UK house maket) and will come down once the bubble has burst(just like the UK house market).

I work for an oil company. Don't hold your breath for the above. Demand is increasingly steadily (India and China primarily), and supplies of 'easy oil' are fast running out. The reserves starting to be developed are *very* expensive to even get at.

And no, we don't earn any more money :(

[gsora]

Well boys and girls the cost of fuel goes up and up and fewer people can afford to indulge in their dreams of flight.
Sailplane pilots are feeling the fuel cost squeeze much less than PPL pilots.

Winch launches and aerotows have risen due to the cost of fuel, however a winch launch averages at £7 and and aerotow at £24 (to 2000`) the cost of hiring a sailplane is around £22 per hour sometimes less, easy to work out the cost of say two hours flight, £51 for winch and £68 for aerotow.

You have to be a good pilot to achieve long soaring flights but instruction is free to Gliding club members, refreshing in the current climate!

There are people who say if you can`t afford it don`t do it.

Well stuff that, other piloting skills are needed in sailplanes and all can learn, if you have an existing PPL they might let you pilot the tow planes as well.

I have flown sailplanes for 45 years and light aircraft for 40 years most of my light a/c time is as a tug pilot, for me sailplanes are the challenge, give it a try.

[ProcATCO]

Some airfields are surely trying to increase their profit margin on fuel or at least maintain it!

At my field we put the price up as increases come through from the wholesaler, but only the increase to us. We have absorbed a couple of increases as the price to us went up after a delivery, but this had to go on after the next delivery. Unfortunately at the moment, a price increase seems to come up at each delivery!

Keep the faith!!!!!!!

:{

[Rod1]

Shunter

The question was “is fuel the dominant cost” I provided figures to show that this is the case all the way from a 180 hp C of A to a 912 permit machine. I was only answering the question. I did not make any comment on what was best for what. Obviously, if you need IFR, then it is a few years away as far as permits are concerned.

Rod1

[Ivor_Novello]

I am flying the minimum amount of hours to keep current (and decent).

I have had my licence for less than 2 years and I think the cost of self hire went from £95 per hour to over £ 120 for a C152 in that space of time. Bear in mind that as time goes on the aircraft are getting more expensive, and are also getting older, so we're not really getting much value..

The result is less flying, less enjoyable (shorter legs, unable to go new places) and less confident.

Until the day I double (triple perhaps ?) my salary, am afraid things will have to stay like that..

[Mariner9]

At my field we put the price up as increases come through from the wholesaler, but only the increase to us.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Avgas users amongst us, can I point out that such a policy would lower your percentage profit, and with the rising cost of money, would only require a small increase in the wholesale cost of Avgas to turn fuel supply from a net profit to a net loss :=

[Rod1]

Ivor_Novello

If you want to stay flying on a limited budget have a look at getting a share in something like a Jodel. For an investment of around £3k, you will get to fly for about £35 per month and £35 per hour. You will almost certainly get the £3k back plus a bit when you sell.

Rod1

[Squeegee Longtail]

One could look for clubs/schools with a more modern fleet, DA40s for example, which drink less per hour. However, because they are newer they will rent out for more and therefore compensate for the reduced fuel cost, but at least you will be getting better value for money flying something decent. Some of the 30yr old + Cessnas/Pipers are a disgrace to sit in.

Incidentally, my car now takes 215 euros to fill up, my boat takes 1,200 euros to fill up. It's not just flying that is getting more expensive!!

[Fuji Abound]

DA40s are another debate.

It is a nice idea that their operating costs should be less - that was the dream.

However very sadly the reality may prove different.

The running costs of a Thielert have not proved sustainable. Perhaps if / when Diamond come up with a new power plant the engine operating costs might compare with a Lycoming or Continental but it is far to early to know. In addition there is the higher capital involved in deploying a new fleet. All in all the jury is out I suspect on whether these additional costs equate to the fuel saved using Jet instead of Avgas for a commercial training operation.

I might add my comment is in no way a critcism of what Diamond have sought to achieve - it is very sad to see the first real innovation in this business in years run into the problems they have because I suspect we would all agree technolgy and airframes that are more efficient is the way to the future.

[Rod1]

“it is very sad to see the first real innovation in this business in years”

Would you not count the AT3 and similar c of a aircraft was a step forward? 12 – 15 lph of Mogas for much higher performance then a 20lph 152 is quite an improvement!

Rod1

[Fuji Abound]

I would - a huge innovation.

I was referring to aircraft on the old cat A, which I should have said.

[A and C]

Quote

One could look for clubs/schools with a more modern fleet, DA40s for example, which drink less per hour. However, because they are newer they will rent out for more and therefore compensate for the reduced fuel cost, but at least you will be getting better value for money flying something decent. Some of the 30yr old + Cessnas/Pipers are a disgrace to sit in.

As a provider of quality aircraft that are of the older type (C152 & PA28) that have modern avionics and high quality interors I find that the extra £1-2 that I charge an hour over the run of the mill aircraft has an effect with a lot of pilots prefering to save £1-2/hour and fly an old dog that smells like some sort of pond life is resident in the carpet and half the radios don't work, the fact of the matter is that is when it comes to quality most pilots are their own worst enemy because they are penny wise and pound foolish.

[Ivor_Novello]

Incidentally, my car now takes 215 euros to fill up, my boat takes 1,200 euros to fill up. It's not just flying that is getting more expensive!!

215 eur to fill up.. it's not a Corsa is it... ;)

I feel for you though, just a plane, a boat and a gas guzzler to play with :)