Interesting facts - PSNI Helicopter

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

The cost of purchasing the pilot services for the helicopter during the time period 1.1.06 to 31.12.06 amounted to £265,000.00. The ready reckoner cost of two observers (constables) amounted to approx £110,00.00 during the same time period.


mechanical servicing for the PSNI helicopter costs of £385,934.34 for the period 1/1/06 - 31/12/06 as requested.

The total fuel costs for the PSNI Helicopter from 01/01/2006 till 31/12/2006 was £97,101.88.

Total costs for landing fees for the PSNI Helicopter in 2006 - £8,884.23.


Number of operational hours 2006 - 1018 incidents - 1324 flying hours which I worked out myself to be 3.6 hours per day.

In the first 6 months of 2007 there were 605 incidents and 615 flying hours which I worked out to be an average of 3.3 hours per day.



Value for money :mad:

[handysnaks]

I think you've already established that you don't like the police helicopter in other threads. :rolleyes:

[timex]

Skyhigh,

What is the value of a single human life saved or child found?

How much crime was prevented or how many crooks were caught because of the helicopters actions?

Your point has been made before and you still don't get it...

[Fortyodd2]

Skyhigh, very good - and the other half of the calculations??

[Sallyann1234]

@Skyhigh,

Start here...
Cost-benefit analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_Benefit_Analysis)

[Droopy]

So would you say by the same logic that having firearms officers is a waste because they don't shoot people very often?

[KrisRamJ]

15 pence per person in NI per year...

[Art of flight]

Not sure these are 'interesting facts' at all. Public services cost we tax payers money. Are you suggesting we don't fund public services or just the ones you don't agree with....?

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Ha Ha - don't like is to strong sorry.

I think what some people forget is the PSNI is now accountable in NI and that includes wasting money !!

What is the value of a single human life saved or child found?

How many more would be saved if for the other 21hrs a day it was used as an air-ambulance ?

[Whirlygig]

A helicopter cannot spend 24 hours in the air - both it, and the pilots, need fuel! And maintenance. And a pee!

You have had the issues explained to you ad infinitum but still it's a bee in your bonnet? Why? What's your agenda? The only posts made here are about PSNI ASU.


I think what some people forget is the PSNI is now accountable in NI

No **** Sherlock!! Just like the rest of the UK then!

Cheers

Whirls

[heliski22]

You mean they weren't accountable up to now SkyHigh? Hmmmm.........

[MightyGem]

What's up Skyhigh? Are they always over your house at 2 in the morning or something?

Haven't you realised yet, that you won't get any sympathy here?

[airmail]

Skyhigh

One thing that you have overlooked around the staff costs is that if the helicopter wasn't there, how many extra police officers would be required to cover the calls & ground area that it can do?

As has been pointed out, you've taken basic costs and come to an assumption without doing a proper cost benefit analysis. Anyone can make figures look bad without proper analysis.

IIRC, there is another thread about dual role helicopters and the basic premise is that it doesn't work due to delays in switching from one tasking to another taking into account an emergency HEMS response. Additionally, if the helicopter is in the air in the Police role and is then required as HEMS then you have lost that capability.

As for your final point about accountability, totally agree with what has been written by others more knowledgable than me. I think that the total cost per person in NI is closer to 80p per annum based on some very quick and dirty maths but have you considered that you have actually wasted a great deal more than that in your postings about it?

[heliski22]

Are you suggesting the programme should be scrapped, Skyhigh?

22

[Whirlygig]

which I worked out myself Victoria to be 3.6 hours per day.
Apart from the fact that my name isn't Victoria, how about some other calculations based on the figures which you have provided:-

Total cost 2006 £866,920.45 which equates to £851.59 per incident and £669.88 per flying hour. Damned cheap if you ask me which makes me think your figures are wildly inaccurate/incomplete/wrong!!

The excess on my car insurance is £500. If the police use a helicopter to catch some car thieving scallies, I have possibly been saved that £500 as have other people. Bargain!!

The population of Northern Ireland in 2004 was estimated to be 1,710,300 which an increase per annum of 0.5% which, for 2006 would be 1,727,446. This is according to DFPNI. (http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/news-july05-mid-year-pop-estimates)

This is 50pence per person. Not bad at all. The previous poster has postulated 80pence per person which would equate to total costs of running the ASU of £1,381,957. Probably nearer the mark.

The manner in which you have quoted your figures is attempting to be sensationalist and provocative - are you are a journalist? Certainly not an accountant!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[heliski22]

Victoria? :confused: :)

Skyhigh Ulser - what's yer problem, then?

Either you support the programme or you don't. If you'd rather spend the money putting more plods on the street, fair enough but consider this....

The police work a 24-hour shift system, takes four people to fill one post every day - one early, one late, one nights, one resting. Factor in annual leave, sick leave, court appearances and so on and the acknowledged figure is 5.25 people on the payroll per single post.

If there are four Divisions or Districts with three stations each working a 24-hour roster, to provide an increase of ONE person available on duty on every tour on every day - that's ONE at any ONE time in each station - will require an extra 63 people on the payroll.

Now how much does a Plod with 5 or 6 years service get paid? Or haven't you worked that one out yet.

Now we come to how far one PC can walk during a tour of duty how much ground can they cover and then start figuring out how many it will take to provide eyes over an entire Division or District.

The Americans call the helicopter in police service a "force multiplier" and that is the key to understanding (if that's within your capability Skyhigh) the effectivenessof the helicopter in police service.

They can't be everywhere at the same time but they do need to be able to see everywhere when they're out there.

What are you proposing - that we all lock our doors and keep the shotgun under the pillow? If you don't trust the police and the service they provide to you, this isn't the place to get a result.

You need to be dealing with people in a very different place - if you have the balls for it!!

Go to bed, you need the sleep - and don't forget the shotgun!

22

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Of-course thats not the full cost - Because while the PSNI are supposed to be accountable they're refusing to reveal the full costs of running the Helicopter :ugh:

You mean they weren't accountable up to now SkyHigh? Hmmmm.........

I'm not saying get rid of it :ugh: i'm saying when it and its expensive pilots are sitting on the TARMAC doing nothing - use it as an air-ambulance :D

[Rotorbee]

@Skyhigh-Ulster
You are wrong. Allways. We told you. It is boring to repeat everything 10 times and you are still not getting it.
The only thing that would be interesting is your motivation. What is wrong with you?
Wanna talk about it?
Should we find you a groupe of nice people where you can rant about helicopters? Just don't bother us again. Get a live, will you?

[Pink Panther]

BBC NEWS | UK | Northern Ireland | Man drowns in Strangford Lough (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7502923.stm)

Here you are shyhigh, your money well spent in my opinion. But a sad outcome.

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Thanks Panther - see it can be done !!

[doublesix]

Now I don't know how many pilots the PSNI employ but lets say five including a floater, and £265,000 = £53,000 a year each. Two constables at £110,000. £55,000 a year each. Wish I earned within £15,000 of that when I was an observer in one of if the busiest air support units in the UK. Where do you get your interesting facts from Skyhigh?

[Whirlygig]

The costs of employing someone are more than just their salary; need to include Employer's National Insurance at 12.8%, employer's pension contribution (variable) at, say 6% plus the costs of any other benefits agreed in a contract (this could include eye tests, staff welfare, all sorts).

This means that, five pilots would be earning around £44k per annum each; that's about right. The observer's amount of £110,000 is bizarre as each aircraft uses two observers and therefore I would think there should be around ten on the books!

Very few of these figures ring true and, although I don't doubt the OP had used his rights under The Freedom of Information Act (again!), either the information provided is incorrect, the OP asked the wrong question or has misinterpreted the answers.

Cheers

Whirls

[ChristopherRobin]

OK skyhigh - tell us how that one helicopter can satisfy the demands of being equipped for police work and air ambulance at the same time. I'm dying for you to show your complete ignorance.

[ShyTorque]

Thanks Panther - see it can be done !!

Yes, we have all agreed that a casualty can be carried in a police helicopter but unfortunately, this one is not a good example to support your argument because the casualty is dead. It is possible that he might have had a better chance had a properly equipped, specialised air ambulance been available.

I've carried quite a few casualties in police helicopters myself, in the days before an air ambulance was available in our area of responsibility. One of the more seriously injured ones didn't survive. Another time I very reluctantly had to decline to carry another RTA victim because I was very concerned that he would not survive if we flew him away from the treatment he was receiving. The doctor with him told me he needed to physically work alongside the patient and the aircraft simply couldn't accommodate that. They sent him in the ambulance on scene and thankfully he survived.

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Now I don't know how many pilots the PSNI employ but lets say five including

Through the Freedom of information :ok: although the PSNI haven't been very helpful giving facts out !!

As for the number of pilots they're are refusing to give numbers :mad:

If members are saying the PSNI helicopter can't perform both rolls because of its size ( which i doubt ) trade it in for a bigger one !!

As it stands we're paying millions to keep a helicopter sitting on the TARMAC for 21hrs per day 365 days of the year :ugh:

[Dr. Bunsen Honeydew]

Well here we go again....

The PSNI helicopter must have the highest utilisation rate of any in the UK with those hours. Now, I suggest you use your well exercised skills of FOI requests to find out the annual hours for the air ambulance cabs. You might be surprised.

Perhaps your knowledge and perception could help you campaign for a full time dedicated air ambulance for the province instead of a committee designed camel which wouldn't help either organisation. One which flies for 24 hours a day, with huge fuel tanks, small land anywhere size, all weather day/night/fog capability, flown and crewed by robots who never sleep, eat or need an outside life, never needs maintenance, cheap to buy and run, and while we're at it could you arrange for all accidents to happen one after the other and nicely spaced so there is no idle time or transit distances to mess up the statistics.
:ugh:

[[email protected]]

Skyhigh - maybe you would just like to turn back the clock and reform 72 Sqn at Aldergrove - we maintained a 24 hour, SAR capable crew on a hoist equipped Wessex which could even have done the Strangford job without needing the lifeboat - think of the savings:)

[Sailor Vee]

Perhaps the counter to this is that Skyhigh now has the freedom to avail of the FOI act of the UK?

both rollswould that be slow and barrel then? :E

[MINself]

CR, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss joint Police/AA units. Those that are joint units are as effective, given that they're not the busiest of and this is the main reason why joint units, in some cases work. I'm not for a moment advocating that the PSNI aircraft should also be an air ambulance too but that you should cut your cloth accordingly, IMHO.
:ok:

[Whirlygig]

As it stands we're paying millions to keep a helicopter sitting on the TARMAC for 21hrs per day 365 days of the year
Skyhigh, why are you persisting in talking in these emotive terms? The issues have been explained to you by some of the country's most knowledgable and experienced Police and AA pilots - why are you incapable of taking any of these issues on board?

Your only posts on pprune are to threads you've started, all about aviation in Northern Ireland and all with an emotive bias; you don't seem to like Belfast City Airport much either!

Your figures are inaccurate but, let's say the PSNI ASU costs £2 per person per annum in NI; is that such a vast amount? Many people contribute more a month to AA charities and more of your taxes could be spent on completely worthless schemes.

So, if you have a beef about how your taxes are spent, then you should embark on the democratic process, lobby your local councillor, your MP, maybe stand for office yourself.

Coming to a website where the very people who set up ASUs and fly for the police and AA organisations and asking questions is laudable. However, you should then accept the answers to those questions since they were pretty much unanimous. You have not told us your interest in this matter (and I ain't buying innocent tax-payer) and neither have you given us technical and logistical reasons why you think a joint Police/AA WOULD work in NI. Get a bigger helicopter? :ugh: How about a PSNI ASU/NI AA chinook? Please could you at least respect and understand the viewpoints on this forum by taking the time to understand a little about helicopter operations. Thank you.

Cheers

Whirls

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

reform 72 Sqn at Aldergrove

Now theres a good point :ok:

Your figures are inaccurate

No they aren't - they mightn't be the total figures, but thats down to the PSNI and their refusal to reveal the true cost of running the Helicopter.


PS - i don't need to run for any offical office - i'm doing ok on my own :ouch:

[whenever]

Skyhigh-Ulster,

Although I often look in on Pprune, I have until now never felt the need to put my 2 pence in. I am a Pilot with an ASU and when I first started my wife much like you was unable to understand how a 10 hour shift could be physically tiring while only flying for 3 hours or so.

The duty will start at 8am with a quick change in to flight gear a check of any notes left by the last pilot, then into the hanger to carry out the Check ‘A’ of the aircraft. This is followed by checking for contamination of the fuel both onboard the aircraft and in the bowser. Once complete the paper work in the Tech Log is filled out. Now it’s time to move onto a self brief of the weather and Notams. At the same time the Police Observers are carrying out self briefings on Logs since they were last on duty and looking into any pre-planned jobs that have come in. This is then followed by a full crew brief, me doing the aviation side of things and one of the Observers doing a tasking brief. By now you are an hour into the shift and you will note not a minute of flying.

Now is the time to get in a brew and possible a light bite to eat. We are now coiled springs waiting for the first calls of the day. I’ll give you an example day. On this day the first task came in around 10am when we went out to take photographs of a fatal accident. (These are carried out once the rescue services have departed and are to show an aerial view of the roads to help further investigations) The task lasted 30 minutes and on our return I topped up the aircraft before filling out the paperwork. I then resumed my coiled spring position. The Observers now had to edit and print off the photos which on a simple job like this is about 30-45 minutes of work. (0n some jobs it can run into hours in the edit room.)

It’s now around 11am and I have sneaked off for a quick visit to the loo for a number 2, however, not quick enough and a call comes in for a pursuit in progress. No need for more details but as quick as possible I’m out at the aircraft carrying out a fast start and when calling for clearance to lift, the Observers get a call to say the vehicle has been lost and to stand down. On the return to the office I resume the position while one of the Observers opens a log for the detail. Every job that comes through to the unit has to be logged. Notice, another 15-20 minutes not showing any flying time.

Over the next couple of hours a number of requests come in for jobs such as missing persons, persons made off from burglary etc. On each occasion the Observers have to vet the calls to ensure that enough has been done on the ground to ensure that aircraft hours are not wasted. A log is established every time.

I’ll not go on as it is obvious that although only 30 minutes flying has taken place in the first 4 hours very little time has been spent idle. The point is.......you can not look at the flying time as a comparison of total working time. Just like a lorry driver who may drive 3 hours a day yet spend hours loading and unloading.

One final point for you, Alpha 5 is a charity expecting to start a dedicated Air Ambulance service in a year’s time. Starting with an aircraft based Enniskillen way, followed by a further aircraft possible in the Newtownards area.

Ireland Air Ambulance | Home (http://www.irelandairambulance.org/)



WE

[tightrope]

hmmm
lies, damn lies, and stuff from the FOIA..!

They are always open to (mis)-interpretation.

Assuming an "average" is alway a dangerous activity.

how long are the sorties
do they operate 24/7
how many hours lost for weather
how many weeks lost for annual
how many hours lost for engineering
how many hours used for training

none of these things have been factored into your "average"

1324 flying hours.. is that one a/c or two..?
if its one a/c then i can tell you that the average per 24 period is going waaaaaay more than you calculated.

statistics.. PAH..
you can make them say whatever you want
mr churchill was very right

if your "campaign" for a dual role a/c in the region is well intended then fair do's. However what you should bare in mind is that maybe, just maybe, the people involved in making the decisions knew a little of what they were doing. And... that there is a reason why there are so few dual role a/c in the uk.

But to come onto a forum of specialists in the field of police ops, as there are here, and spout poorly researched facts figures which "prove" the unit is a waste of money, then Im afraid you have to be prepared for some flack.

One more thing before diving for cover myself..
You "the public" arent paying millions to keep a helicopter sitting on the TARMAC for nothing. Its there ready to go.
The price of having the a/c and crew ready to go at a MOMENTS notice, is that they dont get tied down with other work.

You could also apply the same logic to the fire brigade.
Go knock on their door, and tell them that they should driving around on patrol looking for fires, or helping out the cops in between fires, and see what the response is..!

:mad:

[havick]

/quote One which flies for 24 hours a day, with huge fuel tanks, small land anywhere size, all weather day/night/fog capability, flown and crewed by robots who never sleep, eat or need an outside life, never needs maintenance

They call him "The Stig"

[egbgstudent]

Sky-High, I can see that the majority of people on this site disagree with all that you are saying (in fact from what I have read, this is a regular occurance with you). Why don't you get Stephen Nolan to make this one of his topics? Or are you afraid that you will get shot down in flames, and require the assistance of said PSNI Copter???:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Senior Pilot]

SkyHigh Ulster,

Whirlygig has summed up the situation pretty well: you have got to the stage where your repetitive carping about PSNI and your inability to accept the responses that you have received from Rotorheads indicate that you are outstaying your welcome :rolleyes:

No more :=