Pay to fly ?

[Tex®]

How do you guys see the possibility of a future (not so future then...) where all non-experienced pilots will have to pay to fly for the first 1-2 years ?
It's something already happening here in Italy : after all the pain of passing the exams and paid your training expenses, some italian carrers ask you to pay for your TR some 40-50K euro (all at once), assuring you just a 100 hours on the type or some 40 legs. You have no guarantee you'll be hired.
After the training of course you'll probably get off the plane to leave the right seat to another newbie and others 40-50K euro to come into the cash of the airline. The airline will always find some kiddos who pay 40-50K euro cash to put their butt on the beast...
How do you guys evaluate this policy ? Is it something you think will happen to others airlines as well in Europe ? How most of new pilots deal with this problem of not having logged some 1500/2000 hrs total (of which at least 500 on turbine's) in order to skip this robbery ?

Ciao

[R T Jones]

My personal view that you should not be expected to pay to fly on a commercial flight. Isn't the point of the commercial license that you can make money for flying? Perhaps if the credit crunch bites harder and people cannot afford to pay to fly. It’s the sad truth that there will always be people willing to pay to fly, I can certainly understand peoples point of I've paid so much to get this far, what’s an extra bit going to matter. Perhaps if the majority of pilots were trained by airlines them selves from single engine all the way to the right hand seat. I never saw these days as I'm too young, but I wonder if they were better. I believe one alternative to paying for a type rating and hours is to instruct, however many say it is poorly paid and the hours not as useful as IFR flying jets. Sorry if I haven't directly answered your question but the truth is I am not sure what I personally would do. Guess I will find out in the next year though!

[potkettleblack]

We have arguably just come out of one of the biggest booms in airline recruiting in an age and yet there were people chewing off their arms to buy their way into a job.

Now we are heading into a recession and there will be a fraction of the jobs available for wannabes which makes you wonder what the next scam the likes of FR will come up with and more importantly how low your fellow colleagues will go to secure that elusive first job.

[BerksFlyer]

If it happened as you describe it, all FOs would be paying to fly until they get promoted. Why wouldn't the airline just keep churning people out with their few hundred hours, not offering them a job, then getting the next person in to do the same? It would be a good revenue earner for the airline because there seems to be an endless amount of people willing to pay to offer their services. Only Captains would ever have to be hired and paid for, and they could all be direct entry so all the FOs are there simply to 'build' hours then go so the next person can come in.

[MIKECR]

Berksflyer,

Isnt the system you mention already in place with the likes of the recent ATP scheme. Buy an A320 rating and a couple of houndred hours and pay Easyjet to fly their aeroplane?? Effectively easyjet gets a free pilot, they only have to pay their captains. Line hours come to an end after a couple of months.....next desperate wannabee with cash walks in the door to replace the last one!

[BerksFlyer]

MIKECR,

Sure is. All they have to do is slowly expand that scheme until eventually no FOs are employees, and all pilots are free! That's assuming the obscene amount of money charged to work can also fund the captain they're flying with.

[WindSheer]

Isnt the system you mention already in place with the likes of the recent ATP scheme. Buy an A320 rating and a couple of houndred hours and pay Easyjet to fly their aeroplane?? Effectively easyjet gets a free pilot, they only have to pay their captains. Line hours come to an end after a couple of months.....next desperate wannabee with cash walks in the door to replace the last one!

Lets be honest guys, everything is going to change over the next few years. Not only are the airlines going to struggle with fuel etc, but potential wannabee pilots are skint! With rising living costs, and ridiculous things like Euro v the pound pushing FTE's course up by about 25k...there ain't gonna be as many people training to do the job, and there certainly ain't gonna be enough people willing to pay the airlines...purely because they can't!

I am coming to the end of my PPL.....I got a good job last year (which I hate) to fund me through my modular, and cant believe whats going on in the world. How many other potential pilots are out there 're-thinking' their ultimate ambition?? :eek:

[MIKECR]

Windsheer,

Perhaps a little pesemistic. Everythings is cyclic, the economies will flourish again, people will still travel, airlines will still fly and there will be no shortage of people who want to be pilots. Its an aspirrational career, it will always attract wannabee's, and money will still be available. By the time the oil dries up, alternative fuel sources will already be in place. A recent report on flightglobal already show Boeing experimenting(very succesfully) with alternative fuel.

[Tex®]

WindSheer,
I agree with you, everything's going to change over the next few years : oil prices will bring aviation to a dead end, bank's and credit crises will keep many people away from investing their money (and their lives) in something really poorly profitable, but as long as airlines find someone willing to pay to fly, well, why not accept their money ?
Point is : where and when this will come to an end ?

Ciao

[Neo_RS14]

I'd have to agree, this paying for your own TR business really is disgusting, but since there are people out there willing to do it, and bearing in mind the current economical climate etc, it's going to be something we will have to contend with for a while longer I would have thought.

And as someone said previously, having shelled out ££,£££'s already for your training, an extra wedge to get your self started probably seems like the logical thing to do for someone in that situation, and I don't blame them for it.

We just have to wait for things to pick up a bit, and keep our heads screwed on in the meantime. No one can be blamed for doing their best in their given situation.

[Luke SkyToddler]

What is wrong with all you people?

The only reason anybody has to pay to fly anything, is because you are all hell bent on skipping your traditional apprenticeships in smaller aircraft and flying a big boeing or airbus straight out of school.

The whole world outside of Europe operates on the principle of : do your CPL/IR, get job flying air taxi or flight instructing or banner towing, get 1000 hours, get job on turboprop or regional jet, do two or three years in the RHS and the same again in the left, then get into the big aircraft after that.

It's a principle that has worked soundly and kept sufficient experience levels in flight decks to maintain passenger safety for most of the last century.

The problem is, that this whole industry that's sprung up in the last few years selling bogus jet jobs to rich kids for ever-increasingly-absurd sums of money, is obscenely profitable, and it has gotten into bed with every owner of every big European flying school in the last 5 or 10 years. It started with the first ones to sell MCC courses in the mid 90s, then buy-a-type-rating in the late 90s, and now with all this buying hours on jets thing, they are absolutely CREAMING you lot for money. Why do you think Oxford is now owned by a venture capital organisation? They wouldn't have touched them 10 years ago, until the big investors suddenly noticed that large and well-respected commercial flying training organisations had become absurdly profitable with all these add-ons they were now selling.

Now of course it's impossible to go through flying school without being repeatedly clubbed over the head with this grand illusion they have created, that you have to buy hours and ratings on big jets and all that bullsh!t as part of their training package.

Wake up and smell the coffee you lot. You DON'T have to buy your way into any job. These charlatans selling all these "experience on jet" schemes have tried to throw a curtain over the fact that the whole world of traditional flying experience is still available and still needs pilots just like it always has. Go and get paid while you learn to fly "properly" on flight instructing/air taxi, then regional airlines, when the time is right and you send those CVs to decent respectable jet airlines they will not only snap you up they will pay you a proper wage, and you won't even have a dirty great hundreds of thousands of euros to pay back to the bank.

And as Mercenary Pilot alludes to, although his words are harsh, I am also of the shared opinion with him that the quality control of these schemes is highly doubtful, and the time will come when someone who is paying to sit in the RHS will be involved or implicated in a large fatal accident. Watch the politicians move very fast to close off access to these kind of schemes very quickly when that day comes.

Those of you who don't read the Down Under / Australia forums here on this website should have a look at some of the debate that's been raging over there about the Lockhart River metroliner crash, apparently the FO in that one was some kind of pay-to-fly candidate, and it already looks like a lot of pressure is being applied to the CAA from influential people in government to make sure it can't happen again. Imagine if it was a boeing or airbus in a big city :eek:

[AvEnthusiast]

If we were to fly for fun, then it's better to have only PPL and fly those tiny birds instead of paying those jumbos and still you will get to no where. As stated you'll be replaced by a new one who wants to pay, then you will never be Captain to cover, then it's better to fly small planes and and pay from the money you had saved for flight training.

[BerksFlyer]

Luke Skytoddler,

You've summed up everything that annoys me about how people expect to go straight into a jet. That is the crux of the problem. The big FTOs exploit this attitude aswell by charging extra because they have partnerships mainly with jet operators.

Remember, once you get to a jet, that's what you're going to be flying for the next 30/40 years. Don't miss the valuable experience with different flying along the way.

[MIKECR]

Well said Mr Skytoddler. The metro incident makes interesting reading.

As a slight aside, scary things these metro's(lawn darts as somebody called them!), I remember the Aberdeen crash very well just a few years ago. I see Benair are still utilising one on occasions here in Scotland.

[stardustcologne]

Oh no. Don't tell things develop like this... I just cannot believe it. When I started there was nothing like pay for flying in a real airline. You were a kind of outlaw when you suggested something like this and everyone stared at you like "You silly silly stupid!"

For 40 - 50K Euro you could get two good type ratings... at least several years ago. But is it any wonder... if people still pay money to fly in the big industry, things will probably get even worse. They keep on holding their stomach and head out of laughing, earning the big moeny and people pay for flying as pax and pay money for flying for work!!

I know that things might be most difficult right now and young fellows don't really know what to do next, but:
The only help is: People who have enough balls in their throusers to say "No, that's far too much!"

[Superpilot]

A reality often ignored or not given much thought is that the GA scene in Europe is much much smaller than that of the US or even Oz. There are far more airline (jet) jobs than GA jobs in the UK and I'd be willing to bet that not even 10% of the students FTOs churn out each year land a GA job. A 200 hour student can fly a 737 or A320 but needs minimum 500 hours inc 100 hours multi piston time to fly night cargo ops in a Seneca! This is not the student's fault. The whole system (the regs, the insurance companies, everyone) has created an environment where these Pay to fly schemes can flourish.

In an ideal world we should view Pay to fly schemes as being for losers; the rich and stupid or the (time is running out and I am seriously...) desperate. However, how can we ignore that the airlines are tending more and more towards these sorts of schemes themselves?

The root cause? As usual it's the fat cat pilots who sit at the top minding their own business and not getting bothered by the fact that their airline hires 'pay to fly' cadets. :=

[CABUS]

Personally I feel its everyone to their own. I worked as a DJ then later a flight dispatcher for almost four years and hated every secont but I raised the money to take the Modular route and still have money for a top end TR if required at the end. I appreciate people are against paying for a TR and I am included in this however, if people plan years ahead saving the money instead of giant loans from the family account this is more respectable.

This industry has been made like this by people who have passed through before us and I feel planning years ahead then going to work for in the industry before even setting foot in an a/c I feel is acceptable. Expecting, no sorry buying your first job with no prior effort or dedication is not.

Only my thoughts, happy flying people because thats what it is all about really.:ok:

[JohnRayner]

I have to say I find the idea of "pay to fly" in the commercial sector absurd. I "pay to fly" for fun!

For me the basic implication of pay to fly is that the airlines have got prospective FO's believing they are doing them a favour by letting them onto their planes.

Forgive me for being obtuse or ill-informed, but isn't it a LEGAL requirement to have (at least) 2 people up front when flying Joe Public to their various destinations? What are the companies going to do in the absence of juniors to take the RHS, employ another captain?

I think the discrepancy between LHS= being paid 70k, and RHS= having to pay what, 40-50k? grossly distorted

My current job is supposed to be vocational, and it's also supposed to be a calling, but if someone tried to con the junior ranks into paying to goto work, there'd be a bleedin' mass walkout!

As ever, I speak as a very interested individual circulating on the peripheries, hoping to one day gravitate to the middle of this industry, so if I'm missing something painfully obvious, I hang my head...

[ElCapitano8]

Pay to Fly? NO, Not in a million years.

I can see the appeal of paying for a type rating as long as there's a very high chance of earning a decent salary after doing so.

Like Mercenary says it puts the low ability pilots on the flight deck not a good idea especially from a commercial point of view....save some cash on ****e pilots then lose a $100Million worth of a/c and twice that in the law suits. (ok thats a little over the top but at the very least the less able will burn a **** load more fuel)

I'll go work in burger world for a living before I pay thousands to sit in a 737.

[Superpilot]

The notion that it's a way for less able pilots to fast track their career is a little fantastical. At the end of the day a qualified TRE is going to sign such pilots off and they must reach the same standard as the rest.

[ElCapitano8]

Thats a very simple way of looking at it, having to pay to get a job rules out the majority of pilots and hence the cream is unable to rise to the top.

[CABUS]

Unless they plan ahead and save the money first.

[deice]

While we're on the subject of "work your way up" which I advocate, let me briefly touch base with the MPL. Certain aircraft manufacturers and aviation authorities are working hard to implement this route together with jet operators and to me this is another way of skipping to the front and avoiding "real" experience.
Personally I find this whole business surprising. It seems everyone agrees there is a pilot shortage (!) which is to be solved by fast tracking cadets through sims in multi crew ops and then releasing them for flight duty.

What frikkin pilot shortage? Who is gonna fly the PA31/C208 in the bush? MPL pilots with detail knowledge of sim hydraulics? It's as if all aircraft were wiped off the face of the earth and then there was Boeing and Airbus.

I don't believe the crap that's going on at the moment. And sanctioned from above by the CAA no better. Most if not all seasoned captains I've spoken with lately spit at the fast trackers already - they're just not up to speed on general flying even though they're qualified for RHS B737 ops.

I don't see how anything is getting any better.

[ElCapitano8]

CABUS,

Aside from pointing out the obvious do the maths, how is anyone going to save up 30-40k when working in primark?

If someone is having to pay to do a 'job' I think they may be in the wrong business and should perhaps go and try something more suitable.

[CABUS]

I did the Maths, worked in an airport for almost four years while learning about the industry and what goes on behind the scenes and now fly the Airbus. It was only a suggestion as it worked for me, I paid for the TR as the airline wouldn't put up the funds but that was planned, anyway best of luck guys. :ok:

[BerksFlyer]

When the MPL comes in is it going to obselete the ATPL or is it going to be a lower licence? I find it disturbing that pilots are going to be trained largely on aircraft specific sims in a multi crew capacity without having to do anything else. How are the valuable lessons learnt through basic flight training going to be learnt with the MPL, it just seems like a pointless idea to me. There is no shortage of inexperienced pilots.

[OneIn60rule]

Somoene offers you a job, signed contract should you pay 2000 pounds. I think that's the best it's ever going to get.

It's highly unlikely that anyone these days will avoid paying in some way. I view being bonded as being a bit better because there is not so much bleeding going on again.


I would prepare to be bonded but I would not pay to get a type rating.

1/60

[potkettleblack]

The MPL is not really that different from what big operators such as Cathay & Qantas do at the moment with the exception of them being able to skip over the light aircraft stuff. Instead they can take a raw recruit, train them up on a/c specific SOP's & flying techniques (usually medium or heavy jet) in the sim saving thousands in the process and have a cadet with relevant experience ready to jump into the RHS seat.

It was always intended to cater for the big boys that hand picked their cadets and wanted a better way of getting people onto the line flying operationally. There will of course remain a need for the other aviation fields to be catered for and the authorities recognise that.

[cessnagirl]

Not happening! If you're willing to work for nothing, then what does that say about you? As for those paying to fly? They're just ruining the industry.

[mikehammer]

As a slight aside, scary things these metro's(lawn darts as somebody called them!), I remember the Aberdeen crash very well just a few years ago. I see Benair are still utilising one on occasions here in Scotland


Yes they do and as you will also be aware it has been utilised without incident. Mr Toddler was actually commenting about the FO's experience in the incident to which he referred, not the safety record of an aircraft type, which wouldn't be relevant to this thread anyway.:=

[deice]

I can see where the MPL is similar to cadet programs with airlines such as Lufthansa and that there is a gain for them in terms of skipping piston twin training etc. These programs are tailored by the airlines themselves to meet their specific needs, but when a normal flying training organisation begins adopting MPL they're basically screwing the students of other potential knowledge and experience as well as job opportunities. So, what do we really need out there? MPL or pilots that can fly anything?

Perhaps we should develop a new license - the Competent Pilots License, oh, that'd be the CPL!

[A340rider]

I think that u pay to fly is a good thing as it gets you job..My amigo tell me a broker call Kestrel Jet in Florida, and they can get u a job in Morocco, (bloody nice place to live to!!) its on 737 aswell...its a very well organise airline, i wont say the name of airline..

But u might not need to pay soon as I think that if oil prices keep goin up then this is good for us all especialy for aviation indusrty...at last yipeee..we finaly get good luck atlast wanabes pilots!! (about blinkin time to poor old sods us)..I did economics in college and i was top of the classroom...(im not just a ace pilot ha!!)..I wil explain if u dont understand PM me (Not pilot monitoring haha i mean send private message you dafts) as its very complicate economic..

If oil price go up then people stop drivin there car coz petrol is expensive so then they fly more as it work out cheaper, so more ticket sales..then all the big oil companies like Tecso, sainsburys morrsion etc lower price of oil for cars petrol and then makes oil price go down..its call 'supply and demand' bit confuseing..so then airline boss like Malcolm O'leery (greddy sod) buy it cheap..thats how he do cheap flight for 1p...:ok:

[Turkish777]

Please could you do the World a favour and name the college where you studied economics so it can be bulldozed to the ground! Never in my life have I heard such a total load of bollocks..

If you were top of the class how bad must the student of been at the bottom of the class..:ugh:....

[leeds 65]

how do you write such good english?

I wish i could write english like that

Your a legend

[A340rider]

English is my seconde language..I from Spain...I learn English in Leeds thats why its a bit crap..

Anyway stop making the fun of me and get down the coal mine and get me some coal for my barbeque hahahahha.....:}

Cessnagirl you pay to fly ure blinkin cessna to start with so ure ruining the industry too, you should have been sponsered hipocrit..bloody cheeky

[mikehammer]

Oh, he's from Barcelona, now I understand.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Hooray!!! A340rider is back!!! This forum needs a bit of humour. :D

[A340rider]

Im back (Arnie haha)..been a busy little wasp!! Me an my half Israeli/Palistine girlfrend went back packin across Monaco..did not take as long as we think actualy, we were back after three day...Got a job as pilot flying area photographs but got sack first day! some daft left tow rope on tail as i taxied off !! And i get the blame!! bloody cheek. Nearly the hole bloody empenage come of!! I think those plane are made of chinese rice paper..bloody rubbish them cessna!! I got wip lash to poor sod..was goin to sue like the american sue the peoples all the time but i let it go as im not like that..

Had interview with Ryan (YES bloody Malcolm Olearies lot!!)..some prat shave my eyebrow of when i sleep at this party so i look a hob nob before i start!! Then old sim was nitemare got foot stuck between chair (FO) and pedelstall..had to get lots of support to relese me..delaid the whole day so think i made them angries..dont care as BEWARNED PPRUNERS YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR TYPE RATING AT RYAN AIR!!! they keep that blinkin quiet..buggars!!

[larzabell]

is this bloke serious?:confused:

[flash8]

In days of olde their were only three ways to get to an airline in the UK:

1) Rich Daddy/Mummy and Integrated Route (or paid for by Big Airways) and then RHS of 737/A320 (or the SO Trident/707 in the very olde days).

2) Self-Improver "lower class sort of chap" PPL/IMC, BCPL, CPL, IR ME progression + some instructing and maybe after 500hrs or so we will let the oik near a Jet (maybe)

3) Via the Services (and often a backdoor)

Paying for a TR was unheard of and paying for line experience was non-existent

Now today the whole scenario is turned upside down. Our airline gets quite a few applicants with a "few hundred hours or so" RHS 737 etc from some airline in Turkey or Asia, where they paid for TR and line experience.

And they have a far better chance than a basic fATPL 200hr graduate. Its a tragedy but true!

PS. I almost purchased some LET-410 cargo experience about 5 yrs ago in the East Midlands(?) but thankfully saw sense.

[Mercenary Pilot]

is this bloke serious?

Nah, he is a poor copy of the old PPRuNe legends of A320rider and Ronchuner (or whatever his name was).

Still amusing though. :ok:

A340rider
I'm sure everyone would like to hear your opinions on the Spanish IR. :}

Truth about Spanish IR's (http://www.pprune.org/forums/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/331098-truth-about-spanish-irs.html)

[JohnRayner]

Is A340rider in fact Harry Enfield trying out a new persona?

Enquiring minds need to know...

Anyways, the whole pay-to-fly thing appears to me to be a Wizard Wheeze dreamed up by some exec. to see just how much you can put prospective FO's through in their search for that elusive RHS.

It's a shame most prospective FO's are over a barrel debt-wise, and mad mad keen to fly.

[A340rider]

Are you havin a bubble bath hahaha (im like cockenie now been living in Essex..in it)...I did my IR in UK geezer haha...When the instructor and examiner turn up each day on a horse whereing a cow boy hat on his nut i think do i feel lucky..do you punk....no im off to UK for IR hahah...bloody useless buggar couldnt organize a piss up in a pub