NSW Police Officer Boards Plane with Gun

[Pedota]

This might take some explaining . . .

AFP investigates after armed officer boards plane

ABC website - today

The Australian Federal Police (AFP) is reviewing security at Sydney Airport after a New South Wales police officer boarded a flight with his gun.

The officer was dressed in full uniform and on duty when he boarded a flight from Sydney to the Gold Coast yesterday morning.

The AFP has referred the matter to the New South Wales police to decide whether any action should be taken against the officer.

A review of security arrangements at the airport is now underway.

[DutchRoll]

It's OK! Don't panic!

In a massive blow to terrorism and a great triumph for Western Democratic values and the effort to keep our air travellers safe, my last 125g tube of toothpaste was detected, apprehended, defused and safely disposed of by the authorities.

[Capt Claret]

Those Virgin pax should consider them selves lucky that he wasn't carrying anything dangerous like the little nail file inside nail clippers. He mighta used it to stab his way into the flight deck! :ugh:

I wonder if the checked his aerosol cans for lids?? :ugh: :ugh:

[Islander Jock]

Based on what is in the news report - I'd say there are a few screening officers that do NOT know what they are doing. :ugh:

[Pedota]

Fair call Dutchroll . . . I don't know how many times I have seen metal forks, glass drinking glasses and token plastic knives served up with the food.

Even so . . . a gun on board makes you wonder what is going on. Unfortunately I was once stuck behind a guy in the X-Ray machine in the US who had a hand gun in his bag - he could not see the problem.

Cheers

[Pedota]

Nearly a year ago I made an anonymous call and written statement to BASI saying that I had seen a knife go through the X-Ray machine at MEL . . . it apparently was in the lunch box of a security guy who waved off his mate and said it would be OK.

I could not get a name or number out of anyone airside so rang BASI . . . and documented the case.

Never heard a thing . . .

[Keg]

I worked passenger screening more than a decade ago. Back then we were told to question any police member carrying a firearm as to whether they were traveling on an aircraft and if that they were traveling then they were NOT permitted to carry firearm on board.

The question for me though......why was the officer traveling in uniform? Was he asked the question? If so, what did he say? This could be very nasty for him/her if the security guys did the right thing and he fobbed them off due to not wanting to go through the hassle of going back to the Airport station and surrendering his appointments.

[Under Dog]

If he was in full uniform wouldn've he also be carrying capsicum spray which is part of their standard kit.

The Dog

[max autobrakes]

Thank God Qantas Security do their bit to keep the airways safe by not allowing family members on the flightdeck! Hell the missus might nag you to death rather than get shot by a copper.Lucky he wasn't a Victorian cop, shoot first ask questions later or a Queensland cop for that matter, they're supposed to be the best police force money can buy, aren't they?
ON YA GEOFF!

[max autobrakes]

Suppose the copper will be up for a fine of $10,000, ouch!

What's that sign on the aerobridge read?


Commonwealth of Australia
WARNING!
Airside area
Unauthorised possession of weapons
prohibited.
Maximum penalty exceeds $10,000
(Aviation Transport Security Act 2004 and Aviation transport
Security regulations 2005)

[Jet_A_Knight]

If the security crew were real pros they would have checked his bag for Jeppesens:

"Oh yeah, the Glock's OK- but 'they're' hiding knives in the spines of binders these days':ugh:

[Spaz Modic]

:suspect: Can it be assumed the Captain denied entry or had the offending numbskull removed? If not, why not?:cool:

[thelummox]

Time for the popcorn, this could be a good one.............
I have a couple of thoughts- (1) it appears to be irregular that an on duty member of NSWPF, travelling to another jurisdiction would do so via a RPT flight whilst in full uniform and tooled up.....I would have though incognito is the way to go
(2) As per Keg's comment, there were a number of points at which he should have been advised that carriage on board in flight is not ok including at check in, at the gate, at the aircraft and once on board. This is the first time I've heard of this occurring, so it appears to be a systemic failure to ask a simple question - ie " Are you travelling today sir?" .

There are now so many police on airport as part of their duties the screening point is not going to stop each and every one, but there are other checkpoints for boarding pax where it should have been noted. And normally when the balloon goes up, crew are expecting the cavalry to arrive. Cops don't normally arrive unannounced at the door, it's usually in response to a incident. I just don't get the fact he boarded and no one said anything. Go figure. I guess a few different folks could be working a check in counter, station desk or answering a phone for a while to reflect on what happended! Maybe he read about what happened to poor Schapelle with those horrible baggage handlers and didn't trust putting the said lead chucker through the hold with a big identifying sticker on the bag.......

And the weapon is not unauthorised until the doors close and the A/C goes mobile! At which point, see exhibit A, the paper trail and blame game starts. I note the AFP have thrown the footy as fast as they can to avoid involvement :D

[maggot]

traveling then they were NOT permitted to carry firearm on board. It's my understanding that although they are not allowed to bring the weapon into the cabin, uniformed cops on duty are not required to be security-screened at the security checkpoint. If he bypassed the dikes and rent-a-cops at the x-rays, he probably missed the chance to be told upfront of the requirement to stow his weapon for the flight.
I guess his ID is better than an ASIC? Whats the difference in a cop being taken at face value and allowed to carry a firearm because of the ID he was carrying vs a pilot and his ID + nail file??

[Ron & Edna Johns]

What, for crying out loud, stops a cop being blackmailed by those nasty terrorists (eg, cop's family at home at gun-point), and doing exactly this: walk through a screening point totally unchallenged, and hand off his gun to another of those nasty terrorists? You know, a bit like the DOTARS* paranoia that a PILOT is going to sneak something through in a 125g tube of toothpaste!

Or what stops Johnny Terrorist stealing a cop uniform and doing this? Nothing! And everybody in the industry knows it. And nobody, but nobody, wants to address it.

Well, now maybe they'll have to do something about those nasty cops. Never mind, Johnny Terrorist, you can still target all the airside workers who go airside via the side doors, STILL totally unscreened!

"Oh, we might have to review security at airports in the light of this", they say. God almighty..... :yuk:

I'll let you in on a secret: there is no threat! Again, slowly: there is no threat. Because if there was, it would certainly have manifested itself by now, with all the holes that we all know are there.

But just keep on pi$$ing off the pilots. That's making aviation safer by the day. NOT.


* Or whatever they call themselves this week.

[Cap'n Arrr]

The most dangerous item VB passengers could be faced with is an industrial-size bottle of deodorant.

And Air Marshals have orders to take down anyone who attempts to take clean water or soap near a J* Pax!:E

I don't get how pilots need to be screened (yeah, because they might have a knife in order to gain access to the cockpit!) but other people don't!

Fair enough in a way to screen the pilots, as someone could just get hold of a uniform otherwise and breeze on through. But surely the same should apply to EVERYONE!!! Just cause they get screened wouldn't mean the cops have to leave their 9mm outside, but they would have to prove they needed it. Makes a damn sight more sense to screen someone who is DEFINITELY carrying a lethal weapon (not the DVD) than it does to screen someone whos job is to sit in the pointy end, and who may possibly just maybe be carrying the tweezers of doom!

[yowie]

Great, just gunna make those envigilants in Brisbekistan even more, well, envigilant:ugh: Hope they at least got his toothpaste:D Still dont know how I get through with my hands intact everyday:hmm:

[Cap'n Arrr]

Still dont know how I get through with my hands intact everyday

Rubber gloves.

And lots of lube.:E

[Wombat35]

My question is a simple one...


If it's true that Cops don't get screened.... (I assume it's because they have been security assessed)

Why do aircrew have to go through the process? (haven't we been security assessed as well)?

[HardCorePawn]

A gun? is that all?

check this snippet from the 'sideswipe' column in the NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/466/story.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10509462)

"security had stopped him but had let him through because it wasn't one of the things on their list to confiscate."

WTF?!?!!?!? Who trains these people?

:eek: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :mad:

[rotaryman]

The only people permitted into the sterile area are AFP officers!!

NSW Police in uniform or otherwise are NOT permitted into the sterile area / aircraft etc while carrying weapons....

Begs the question of why he was stopped at Gold Coast but permitted through Syd.
:eek:

[blow.n.gasket]

What ever happened to the Wheeler Report on airport security?

[Wunwing]

rotaryman.
Are you saying that the NSW Police assigned to the airport, of which there are now a large number, are unarmed in the sterile area?

If they are, what use are they?

Wunwing

[Islander Jock]

PEDODATA, if you made a call to BASI (ATSB?) anonymously or otherwise regarding aircraft security - you probably wasted a phone call. It has nothing to do with their office and in true public service fashion they probably would have shrugged it off. Dept of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Govt (formerly DOTARS), Office of Transport Security, are the people you want. Ph 1300 307288 24/7.

I think maggot might be closest to the correct answer as to how this occurred.
Police are not required to be screened in order to enter a sterile area. Whether there is a mechanism in place to check that the officer in question is entering the area in the line of duty as opposed to travelling as a passenger is something that probably has the powers that be scratching their heads at the moment.
If indeed Mr/Ms plod deliberately used their postion in order to evade compliance with the regulation regarding screening then there are some serious concerns here.

Regulation 4.10 Persons taken to be cleared at a screening point without being screened
For paragraph 41(2)(b) of the Act, the following persons may pass though a screening point without being screened:
(a) a law enforcement officer who produces his or her identity card as a law enforcement officer.
(b) screening officer.....
(c) an abulance, rescue or fire service officer......
(d) member of the Defence Force who is responding to an event......

In the meantime for the rest of us. Keep your ASIC displayed correctly, remove any and all items that can be construed by security nazis as being a threat to an aircraft, take off your shoes, belt, watch, wedding ring and whatever else as you go through screening to your aircraft. God forbid you could ever be in a positon to take control of an aircraft.:mad::mad:

I know for a fact OTS people do browse these pages but as for them taking anything on board and making changes to the regs to reflect common sense and practicality - forget it! They have the govt and travelling public right where they want them - scared.

[mates rates]

And what about the training of the flight attendants? There is a lot of BS taught to these people at intake training,but obvoiusly nothing about a pax walking on board with a six gun on his hip !! The training department of the airline needs a big kick up the backside to start getting their priorities right.

[clark y]

Should have been stopped by the boarding staff or the FA greeting gun toting copper at aircraft door.

As for police walking through xray armed- see it quite regularly. No-one stops them. At minimum there should be an ASIC swipe machine at security so their I.Ds could be detected as genuine or fraudulent instantly.

And let's not forget the not so rigid security measures below the terminal, outside the flying publics view.

[rotaryman]

[QUOTE][Are you saying that the NSW Police assigned to the airport, of which there are now a large number, are unarmed in the sterile area?

If they are, what use are they?
/QUOTE]

Thats the Role of AFPPT- Protective services. not the NSW Police.

Only the SFPPT officers are permitted to carry firearms into the Sterile Area of an Airport.

[Islander Jock]

Rotaryman,
I looked at that part of the regs too and thought maybe this is where the confusion has arisen for screening staff. Whilst it says, as you pointed out, that only SFPPT officer can carry firearms, the regs don't say that police cleared under regulation 4.10 must not be carrying firearms.

Well that's my take on it anyway.

[antzx6r]

I know for a fact OTS people do browse these pages but as for them taking anything on board and making changes to the regs to reflect common sense and practicality - forget it! They have the govt and travelling public right where they want them - scared.
And pouring money at them screeming "save us! Save us!"

I'll let you in on a secret: there is no threat! Again, slowly: there is no threat. Because if there was, it would certainly have manifested itself by now, with all the holes that we all know are there.

Why would there be a threat? They've done what they wanted. We're being terrorised at every check point. "They" don't want to kill people. Thats just a symptom. Its the statement. Well... statement made! everyone is well aware and the US now has the tiger by the tail too scared to let go.(and too dumb - there's money in them thar sand hills)
I'm afraid this is how life is going to be from now on folks. Get used to it. Sit back and enjoy the show I say.

[Moniker]

would not a police officer be covered under the "exempt class of person" or similar wording, which would invoke some sort of authority, which would be covered similarly under the state legislation somewhere in turn invoking the power to do whatever??

As for a reason for the person traveling - could have been stationed at/near OOL (ie Kingscliff, NSW - not even 10 minutes down the road from OOL) before transferring to the big smoke .. and may have an outstanding court matter which was being heard in the court at Tweed Hds. which is even closer to OOL.

[bushy]

It will be a sad, sad day if we cannot trust our cops. If that day comes we have to fix it, not accept and adjust to it.

[teresa green]

How do you know Constable Plod wasn't a nutter? How do you know the poor bloke had'nt just interviewed Belinda Neal and was suffering from spitting and swearing in his face? He could have totally lost it, when the bad coffee arrived. Bring back the DC3's when you could take yer gun, rifle and the dead pig you shot, on board! Im over all this crap, the bloke probably had a prisoner with him, the gun would not be loaded (I imagine) and let me remind you the PILOTS used to wear side arms in TAA and QF in New Guinea. Bring back the days when people were not frightened of their own shadow! Im not in a good mood, I backed the Blues!:(

[Islander Jock]

Moniker,
That is where the confusion lies. The regs clear police to enter the area without screening but elsewhere it refers to only the skygods being allowed to carry firearms. The regs should be more specific in this regard.

Having said that, it still doesn't address the more serious issue of the cop taking his side arm on board the aircraft. What was he/she thinking?

[Whitney]

I'll bet pounds to peanuts that the whole story is yet to come out ...

[Knumb Knuts]

Any truth in the rumour the cabin crew caught him masturbating but on closer insepction he was just stroking his weapon?

[Capt Claret]

Even when escorting a person in custody a copper is not permitted to be armed in the aircraft.

I've not seen much on the TV on this but think I saw an x-ray image showing his weapon in a brief case. If correct, this would explain why boarding staff were unable to prevent the weapon being carried on board.

[MrAnderson]

Yes the weight of the average RPT Jet hmmm v's the weight of a cops sidearm. Both can be operated with the persons digit finger and both attached fingers are screened however Bris stalin stan screeners believe one finger can inflict greater injury than the other. Thats why the cop got through. simple really.

[Wunwing]

rotaryman
I ask again why are large numbers of NSW Police assigned to the airport if they aren't armed. There have been a number of newspaper articles here in recent times discussing how the NSW Police have not managed to reach the agreed staffing levels at SYD airport. If they are involved in airport security which surely would have them armed airside, what are they doing, looking after the carpark?

Wunwing

[eye_in_the_sky]

who really gives a sh*t?

[Keg]

Rotaryman is wrong. NSW Police- and others of the states and territories in Australia are absolutely permitted to carry their firearm airside of the security screening point. They certainly aren't permitted to carry it on board.

If the copper was carrying his firearm in a briefcase then this is a big red flag to any security screener (worth their money) that the copper is probably intending on traveling. Therefore it would require the question to be asked. We're back to square one. Was the copper asked the question? If not then the training of the screener and/or competency of the screener is inadequate. If the copper was asked the question and lied about it then they're up for a pretty hefty fine in my book.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

[Islander Jock]

G'day Keg,
There is a distinct difference though between airside area and sterile area. Depends on which airport and how the zones are laid out. I don't believe anything in the regs precludes them from having their weapons in the airside area but it is the sterile area and passage to the screened service that throws the different light on it.

eye_in_the_sky, just out of interest, are you a copper?

[thelummox]

Rotaryman, don't take this the wrong way but you might want to get your facts right before posting them as gospel.

A good place to start may be reading the Aviation Transport Security Act and the associated regs, with particular attention to the definition of a police officer in the Act, which clearly states a police officer is a member of the AFP or a member of a police force of a state or territory, or a special member of the AFP or a special member of a state or territory.

An AFP officer has no more powers at an airport than a member of of a state police force and in fact have fewer powers as they do not have a general ability to enforce state statutes. CTFR officers are different again and have no ability to enforce or arrest for any offences not related to aviation as they are not sworn police officers, however they are clearly authorised under the broader definitions. Airports sit on Commonwealth land, however thy are not commonwealth territory, so there there is no general right for AFP to have jursidiction there, no more at say a Centrelink office, or other commonwealth office that exists within a State.

Under the Commonwealth Application of Laws Act of 1970 (go look it up, you may learn something) State officers have the power to enforce the full range of Commonwealth offences - there is a significant and very erronous belief out there that state powers stop at the airside/landside divide. The airside/landside divide has no significance for enforcement in relation to criminal matters except that when there is a commonwealth offences detected on airport it will normally be dealt with by AFP members. Stealing airside is the same as stealing landside, except when it involves duty free goods, when a separate offence against the Customs Act is created in the way of interfereing with bonded goods.

With the AFP performing uniformed policing on major airports nationally, it makes sense for them to handle commonwealth or aviation offences, however they do not have any authority to manage emergencies or major incidents on airports as they are not recognised within the relevant legislation.

Wun & Keg, with regard to the issue of the sterile zone there is no difference about what agency can and can't carry firearms in the sterile zones or the Security Restricted Areas. If memory serves me correctly, S83 of the Aviation Transport Security Act states a police officer may enter and remain on any part of an airport at any time. (and reference to the definition, this is again clear as to who can do what/go where).

Wun makes reference to the issue of NSW police performing duty at Sydney Airport. Technically at all designated airports the AFP perform uniformed duties using members of each state police force who are seconded to the AFP, sworn in as AFP special members. This means they can exercise their full range of state powers and commonwealth powers, however whiilst seconded they are performing duty as an AFP member and under the full direction and authority of the AFP. This is not to say NSW officers cannot enter and do any of the tasks that the AFP do, except there are MOU's in place between the state and commonwealth as to range of duties to be performed, range of influence and when the state assumes control over incidents on airport.

So Rotaryman, I hope this clears up some of your wrongly formed beliefs; just be grateful you haven't been ramped yet at an airport and found a broom handle up you arse when you tried to tell someone they couldn't do something they clearly can!:}


.

[Mr. Hat]

surely this is a misunderstanding and there was an agreement.

more importantly did they get all the deoderants off the crews- these really are dangerous.

[Pedota]

1. Islander Jock - thanks for information on who to call. I was deafened by the silence and indifference.

2. Max Autobrakes – maybe QF keep family out of the cockpit, but I can truthfully report several recent examples of VB ‘inviting’ passengers to the flight deck . . . and in both instances she stayed there for take off, cruise and landing.

There are some double standards in airports and on aircraft . . . but as ‘eye in the sky’ states, who really gives a sh*t?

Cheers

[thelummox]

But we still haven't answered the question.................what was the ******* idiot thinking (or not)? Apparently an education officer - educates others, just not himself! Never seen it before, hopefully we won't again, but a fairly substantial failure to pick it up. I'm banking that it was entirely unintentional - If he didn't know any differently, and no one told him otherwise, I can see how he would slip by. Doesn't say much for terminal staff and crew though.........:ugh:

[The Voice]

Lummox spelled out what Moniker said, and very nicely put too.

I'll wager here, that with the firearm being in a briefcase knowledge of the requirements is shown, and was an attempt to comply.

Who's to know, just maybe permission had been granted in this circumstance for this method of transport. No mention (that I'm aware of), of where the ammunition and magazine were.

What if the weapon was being transported up for court and was part of the physical evidence - it would need to be "hand to hand" to preserve the chain of evidence, would it not?

Agree with Whitney, think the whole story is still out there.

[Islander Jock]

Lummox,
Good post mate. I have to admit, I usually take my guidance from the regs rather than referring to the actual Act

Section 46 of the ACT also makes it clear that a "law enforcement officer" may have a weapon in any part of a security controlled airport.

In relation to weapons on board:
Sect 48 - Weapons on board an aircraft - strict liability
(1) A person commits an offence if;
(a) the person is on board a prescribed aircraft; and
(b) the person:
(i) carries a weapon; or
(ii) otherwise has in his or her possession a weapon that is located at a place that is accessible to the person; and
(c) the person is not a law enforcemetn officer; and
(d) the carriage or possession of the weapon is not authorised by the regulations or permitted in writing by the Secretary; and
(e) neither of the following apply;
(i) the weapon is under the control of the pilot in command of the aircraft because the equipment of the aircraft in accordance with the operations manual for the aircraft.
(ii) the weapon is under control of the pilot in command of the aircraft because of an animal that could endanger the safety of the aircraft, or the safety of people on board the aircraft, is being carried on board the aircraft.

Sect 49 "Weapons on board an aircraft - general" has the same provision.

Maybe it's too early in the morning but I'm getting a bit confused as it would appear that the Act acually allows for a law enforcement officer to have a weapon on an aircraft.

But then again I guess the relevant police internal regulations would clearly specify under what conditions weapons may be carried or are required to be surrendered.

[Muffinman]

Maybe the gun was empty?

Maybe the bullets were in a separate bag in the cargo hold?

woops sorry Voice - I re read through your post and just noted you raised a similiar observation. Box of donuts coming your way.

[rotaryman]

I guess thats why we have the Police Commisioner on the news stating.

" Yes one of my officers has done the wrong thing and we are investigating"

thelummox: your sarcasm only demeens youself, take a chill pill....:bored:

[thelummox]

thelummox: your sarcasm only demeens youself, take a chill pill....:bored:



The only people permitted into the sterile area are AFP officers!!

NSW Police in uniform or otherwise are NOT permitted into the sterile area / aircraft etc while carrying weapons....



Yes Rotaryman I'm sorry to have hurt your feelings, I must admit though that the double exclamation marks and capitals in your post had me confused, as I took that to mean that you were sure you were right and had to punctuate appropriately to reinforce the point.............

I accept your apology however as I agree with the point you made by referencing the Commissioner :ok:. Other than Air Security Officers (that's Sky Marshalls or biscuit bandits to us working folk), it is well outside normal protocol and procedure to carry a firearm in those circumstances although Islander Jock raises a very good point. A strict interpretation of S 48 would infact appear to exempt a law enforcement officer from the provisions of the Act, although the intent is to authorise ASO's on duty. My understanding is that even they are authorised by the Secetary to do so, however they may be other things going on.

Having a little knowledge of the charters that they use, firearms are never allowed to be carried on a A/C, nor capsicum spray, and their own policies are very clear as to the fact tools of trade must travel in the hold.

Having said that, I'd feel much happier being on an A/C with PC Plod with a unloaded weapon and no ammo, than having the same weapon and ammo travel through the baggage system unaccompanied with a sticker identifying all and sundry to the presence of a weapon, and given it's probably in a small bag, even bag chuckers could probably work out it's not a rifle!

Methinks this bloke (or blokette) has done it unintentionally, however the fallout is the same. Be interesting to see where the cards fall.

[beaver_rotate]

Twice now I have taken my leatherman (with a 4 inch knife blade) through security in Cairns (once at international and once at domestic). Both times in the cruise (once paxing) I was digging around in my nav bag and discovered my mistake (or theirs!?!?). I am waiting for a slow news day to tell the Cairns Post.

If its gonna happen its gonna happen, simple.

[rotaryman]

thelummox:

Please don't flatter yourself! I wasn't appologising mate.:confused:

From my experience and it is substantial,all firearms are to be considered loaded! So i certainly don't agree with your thoughts on carrying supposed unloaded weapon.

I do agree that allowing Bag Chuckers access is an issue.But lets be honest, Security are Australian Airports is a Joke :ugh:

:bored:

[thelummox]

But lets be honest, Security are Australian Airports is a Joke


Well I guess we agree on something!

[Metro man]

Did he put the gun on the belt for X ray ? Anything that has been through the machine must be alright as it has been screened.

I remember seeing a police officer in uniform, with side arm clearly visable in its holster, having the hand held metal detector passed all over him. What were they checking for, a nail clippers ?

[assasin8]

Ah, so that's the trick... I'll just get my 8 year old son to carry a firearm and then he can ride with me on the flight deck!
It's all so simple, why didn't I think of that sooner???:ugh:

[BIG TITS]

Are we sure it was a gun in his pocket or was he just to be on an airplane?

[Kelly Slater]

Are we sure it was a gun in his pocket or was he just pleased to see BIG TITS?

[mudpig]

Rotaryman, sorry to inform you but State police are allowed airside whilst armed. I don't need to state the act, section and subsection. Screw that. I speak from experience. No.... not because i saw some cop walkin around one day but because until recently I was one of those boys in blue. I was stationed in close proximity to one of our Int airports and on a number of occasions myself have had cause to be airside. Yes... armed as well. The only time I didn't take my firearm airside was while doing a prisoner transfer as I was required to board an aircraft.
Unfortuantely in the police you only really learn the laws and regulations that you yourself may be enforcing. So therefore, unfortunately, most state police have no idea about aviation regulations. This is something the Fed Police stationed at airports know much more about. I, just as much as most newbie cops with big egoes, thought I could carry my firearm anywhere whilst on duty. Low and behold, over time, most of us learn to pull our heads in (sometimes the hardway) and it wasn't long before I learned there where plenty of places I couldn't carry my bullet chucka.

Anyway, boarding aircraft whilst transfering prisoners was one of those places. I dare say that until this incident occured, and was so publicised, there were still plenty of cops out there that didn't know this.

BTW an education officer sits at his desk all day making sure all the probies are doing their assignments for their uni work. They also advise and place other police at the command on weapon and tactics training, investigation courses, driver courses and so forth. So they don't get out much and sure as hell hardly ever put their appointments belt on. Oh and gets paid about the same as a Saab Captain. P'toowi :yuk: Which is a hell of a lot more, obviously, than the young guys and girls walking the beat putting up with the :mad:.

Cheers.

[rotaryman]

mudpig:

Mate you might like to take the time to re-read my posts, I said not permitted into the Sterile Area, Not airside as you have stated.:ok:

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[mudpig]

Rotaryman
FINE- in order to clarify this, define a sterile area and tell me where this is other than an aircraft. Also the difference between this so called sterile area of the domestic terminal and international terminal. We were readily able to enter into this area at domestic but obviously not the international due to customs where this area is secured by AFP and Protective services.:=

I feel you are now clutching at straws. Standing under a jet on the RPT apron. Is this not a sterile area also? The way many of our laws and regulations are worded are open to interpretation. You may or may not know that. If you ever sat down to a law exam (CPL maybe) and got less than 100% you should already know this seeing as though you had the CAR's with you in the exam.

Fortunately what is stated and not misread is that firearms are not allowed to be carried on board aircraft. Unfortunately for most these token signs posted around our airports give only the most brief of interpretations of regulations meant to be read and understood by the average punter so that they know they can't pass a particular point without authorisation. These signs don't include the subsections which may in certain circumstances allow other persons within the sterile or airside areas.

I had no intention in making a reply to this post to be dragged into an argument. What some people may call a loophole that allows police into a secure area with a firearm may not be a loophole at all. I'm pretty damn sure if a member of YOUR family was being attacked by some sicko in the "sterile" area you wouldn't be happy that the police attending had to "check" their firearms, spray and batons at the door especially if the crook was armed himself. Understand, this also, if someone rings "000" within the secure area it will be the state police responding first. Protective services and the AFP will probably win the race but the state police will still attend. :D

[rotaryman]

MUDPIG:

To answer your request for additional information a Quick Google reveals the following:

Sterile area
Particular security requirements also apply to sterile areas. These are primarily designed to ensure that any people, goods or vehicles that enter a sterile area are screened and cleared and that people who have been screened and cleared stay cleared before boarding their aircraft.
Sterile areas are primarily required at those airports which have jet services. Many security controlled airports will not have sterile areas and will not need to undertake screening.
See page 21-'screening and clearing'.

The Regulations contain detailed descriptions of the circumstances under which people can or can't enter the sterile area:

generally a person may only enter the sterile area through a screening point and only if he or she has been screened and cleared (unless they are exempt from the screening requirement)
only vehicles and goods that are screened and cleared may enter the sterile area
only cleared vehicles that are authorised and driven by an authorised person displaying a valid ASIC (or a person with a VIC who is supervised by somebody displaying a valid ASIC) may enter the sterile area.
The Regulations also detail requirements for barriers, signage and screening points.

and!

Prescription of sterile area
The sterile area of a security controlled airport is prescribed for the purposes of paragraphs 54 (1) (aa) and (3) (aa) of the Act


AND!
21C Screening at sterile areas
(1) A screening authority in respect of a sterile area, or part of a sterile
area, must ensure that people, vehicles and goods do not enter the
area or part of the area unless they:
(a) have been screened and cleared for the purpose of entering
the area; or
(b) are exempted by the Secretary in writing from screening and
clearance; or
(c) are in a class of people, vehicles or goods exempted by the
Secretary in writing from screening and clearance.

MUDPIG:

Maybe a litle research on your part prior to shooting off your mouth might help your foot in mouth problem.:ok:

[rotaryman]

MUDPIG:

I'm pretty damn sure if a member of YOUR family was being attacked by some sicko in the "sterile" area you wouldn't be happy that the police attending had to "check" their firearms, spray and batons at the door especially if the crook was armed himself. Understand, this also, if someone rings "000" within the secure area it will be the state police responding first. Protective services and the AFP will probably win the race but the state police will still attend.

Totally agree with you ole chap! but that is not what we are talking about now is it..:ugh::E

[mudpig]

"The only people permitted into the sterile area are AFP officers!!

NSW Police in uniform or otherwise are NOT permitted into the sterile area / aircraft etc while carrying weapons...."

Was this not quoted by you on page 2? Yes I agree he did wrong by getting on an aircraft. Are we still not talking about him also entering a sterile area. Come on. Shooting my mouth off? Statement only.
The regulations were broken once he stepped onto the aircraft. That is it.:ugh:
Did you or did you not get 100% in air law at CPL or ATPL level?
Geezuz! once CASA gets it right and gets people to sit exams that are not OPEN BOOK maybe then people will be actually forced to study and KNOW law. Just like proper law students.:8

OOPS shot my mouth off again! Sorry that will cause a thread drift. Sorry Mods.:oh:

[mudpig]

Yep he got me on that one. Fell for it hook line and sinker after sayin I wasn't getting into and argument.:ugh:
Oh well I suppose he's gone back to lookin up his CAR's.
CIAO I've said my peace and thats it.
Suppose CPL(h) have their own interpretations on CAR's.
Oh god I've gotta learn to keep my mouth shut.:oh:

[rotaryman]

MUDPIG:

Yea i agree with you mate!

Maybe you should do your home work first before you attempt to sling mud in my direction ( Pun Intended ):}

Your feeble attempts at making this personal is quite laughable, The Regs i quoted are a simple cut and paste mate! and if you read them i am sure even you could learn something :eek:

I could go on and explain the various regs to you but obviously that would be a complete waste of time. do your home work champ....:ok: and take a chill pill..:ugh:

[mudpig]

"Maybe a litle research on your part prior to shooting off your mouth might help your foot in mouth problem.:ok: "
Come on was it not you that fired the first shot and getting personal with this comment.

What are we arguing about anyway for Chrissakes. Is it that police are allowed into sterile areas or not? Or is it the interpretation of regulations of which you keep cut and pasting? Or is it that maybe that some would like to see a police officer charged for boarding an aircraft in uniform with his firearm. Just so you know police, if, in uniform in public on duty are supposed to have their appointments on. Now, it is up to the staff at the gate to inform this officer that the firearm cannot be carried but is to be surrendered to the PIC to be carried in the confines of the cockpit.

Now that in itself is a little disconcerting when a few have already posted what if this officer had a screw loose while in possession of his firearm. Was it not a flight crew member that lost the plot and attacked his crew with a hammer in a DC-10. What if he had a gun the end result in that incident would have been tragically different.

I will bury the hatchet (so to speak) I retract any comment that may have offended you or your helo brothers. I apologise. I totally agree that no firearms should be allowed on board. But there obviously needs to be much clearer regulations in place which states who may carry firearms into the sterile areas. Police, wether Federal or State, must be allowed into these areas with their full appointments for the protection of all of us.

Again I apologise for any personal attacks.:ok:

[rotaryman]

Appology Excepted..:ok:

[NephewBob]

Forever, as far as I can remember, on N- registered aircraft, Law Enforcement Officers (after appropriate paperwork) were allowed to carry fully loaded weapons in the passenger cabin. Captain briefed espec. if there was more than one (diff agencies etc) as to seating positions for obvious reasons.

What is the big deal? If this particular cop broke regulations in Oz, maybe the regulations should be changed?

Funny thing is, as common as it was to have LEO's on a flight, there was a tragic shortage on the morning (too early?) on 9/11!

Ever taken a 9mm parrabellem (gun) to a boxcutter (knife) fight?

If so, & a few of the (myriad) feds/state/county/armed postal/fishery inspectors had have decided to take the early morning flights to the west coast, we probably would not be having this discussion.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

What's the big deal?

Because if the muppets are paranoid about a pilot being blackmailed and forced to bring a deadly bottle of water onto the plane, then they ought to be just a tad concerned about a copper being blackmailed in the same manner and being forced to taking his Glock onto a plane to leave in a seat pocket!

Ah, but no big deal.... because coppers are trustworthy, unlike those lawless pilots.

[Pinky the pilot]

As a side issue; What I consider to be not a small worry is the knowledge that the average copper would be a pi$$ poor shot with their pistols, simply because they rarely get to practice with them.

The general theory is that if they find themselves in a position where they have to use their gun they are taught to point it at who/whatever they have to shoot at and 'empty the clip.':eek:

Anyone who is a regular Pistol shooter knows that it is'nt easy to actually hit the target and to be an accurate shot requires a great deal of practice.

[porch monkey]

Sorry Pinky, usually agree with your postings, but have to take exception to your "point at target and empty clip" quip. No, they aren't particularly good shots, but that is simply bull****. Never, ever has that been taught in my department. As an instructor there for over 10 years, I can state that. In fact, to do just that would open you up to being charged.........

[Pinky the pilot]

porch monkey; Apologies, I stand corrected.:O Thanks for the clarification.:ok:

But the reason I made that statement is that there was, from memory, one State Police Force where in the past that was the (possibly unofficial) policy.
It became the subject of quite some debate at the time. (Well over a decade ago)

[rotaryman]

Double Tap Maybe ??

Stop or i'l shoot again.........Yes most officers would have a hard time hitting the side of a barn. I would be more concerned at some rouge officer punching a hole in the side of the Aircraft and the rapid de-pressurisation that would result.:eek:

[neville_nobody]

I would be more concerned at some rouge officer punching a hole in the side of the Aircraft

A bullet hole in the side of an aircraft isn't enough to cause a rapid decompression. You'd need a bomb to go off or structural failure.

[porch monkey]

Common misconception Pinky, and you are forgiven. BTW, if you're referring to the southern most stateof the country, excepting the detached part, then I can assure it has never been taught that way. What is interesting is that the "empty the gun" thing isn't taught, but does occur. It's related to the lack of training in some respects, but to a large degree on the "Fight or Flight " principle. Go figure!! The basic premise, as taught however, is that you fire until the threat is incapacitated. That may take 1 round, it may take 10, it may not happen at all. But the instant you fire MORE that that required is the instant you get to face the judge.:eek: Just out of interest, the usual score for shots fired versus hits on offenders is just over 60% where I used to work. Not high, I agree, but a fair degree higher than all the other departments in Australia. Of course, while most people would say how hard can it be, and many people have tried it on targets, there is one BIG difference!!! Paper targets aren't trying to kill you:ooh:

[rotaryman]

neville_nobody

A bullet hole in the side of an aircraft isn't enough to cause a rapid decompression. You'd need a bomb to go off or structural failure

So could a Bullet not blow out a window? who is to say that a structural failure would not occur.

O.k lets try it..? You go first :}:ok:

[Biggles_in_Oz]

Mythbusters actually did a segment about this a while ago.
neville_nobody is right.. Blowing-out a window would be very unpleasant, or even fatal, to the nearby pax, but it is very hard to make a catastrophic structural failure with just a bullet hole.

[Captain_djaffar]

but it is very hard to make a catastrophic structural failure with just a bullet hole


i'll agree with you ...but the chance exist that the projectile can still hit other crucial components.

Hitting a hydraulic line or damaging some electrical wires can be disastrous too...but we still have some alternates to avoid the worst... what i fear the most is if the bullet pierces and ignites the central fuel tank.
kABOUM!

[Keg]

Anyone seen the size of an outflow valve on an airliner? About the size of a window- the 744 has two of them. That's the size of the hole in the plane every time it goes up.

A bullet hole through a window is barely going to make a bit of difference. If the whole window goes it may be noisy and it may be chilly but it isn't going to be catastrophic.

A bullet through the aircraft structure has risks but down through the fuselage is going to be the shot most likely to cause havoc. Even then you've got to be pretty lucky (or unlucky depending on which way you want to view it) to hit something critical enough to disable the aircraft.

[VH-WTF]

Slightly OT, but nevertheless..

Security are Australian Airports is a Joke

Whilst collecting my bags at the INTL terminal last week (0620 arrival, the place was packed) an advertising billboard fell flat onto the floor. Made an almighty bang which could have been mistaken for a gunshot. How many rent-a-cop types came rushing to the scene? That's right, none. One AQIS bloke came over with a 'Not my problem' kinda look on his face a minute or so later. :ugh:

[rotaryman]

Most likely to busy in the Krispy Creame line up....:}

[porch monkey]

It's incredilble how many people actually believe the **** they see on tv.........

[bin b'archin]

He's a cop! for f#*ks sake!

[walaper]

Bin b'archin
A very silly one who exercised poor judgement !