Quit the AOA and join the DPA

[stillalbatross]

Ok, so ditching the AOA. Curious to know can I join the DPA instead? After all we're all one big happy family now. The AOA has been at pains to point out that seniority joined at any Swire airline should be directly transferable to Cathay. So, why not?

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Personally I would distance my self from such a move. If we go down that dark raod, the next step would be combined seniority list follwed shortly by me taking a KA330 to Chengdu.......

I joined CX not KA and as such would NOT be interested in DPA/AOA merger - different airlines with different priorities.

I would support my brothers at KA in there disputes etc just leave them on a KA list and me on my CX list, lest we play right into Swires hands.

AFL

[AAIGUY]

I withdraw my comments.
I will let the DPA look after it. They do a great job @ everything else.

[stillalbatross]

I joined CX not KA and as such would NOT be interested in DPA/AOA merger
No merger, the AOA's been crap for me. I just want to know can i have the DPA looking after any issues i have with my COS, not the AOA.

At the moment it's the AOA or nothing and half of CX have gone with the surprisingly cheaper latter option..................

[fire_fox0224]

They only got a pay rise because so many people left the company. It had nothing to do with a strong union.Blah,blah, blah. :ugh::ugh:

[MACH.88]

Stillalbatross are you for real??

MACH.88:rolleyes:

[Fenwicksgirl]

Albatross, please go, please please!! You would be in a far better position than you are now, wow, why didnt we all think of that, you have all the answers!!

[Numero Crunchero]

DPA achieved what it has through a long campaign of CC, lots of resignations and unity. We at CX are only starting on the middle leg - lots of resignations but no where near as many as KA had.

Changing unions to achieve superior outcomes is like those investors who constantly change into mutual funds that have been in the highest quartile for the last five years - invariably they under perform over the next five years. If KA guys are happy with their latest deals then they will likely have less resignations in future and more unlikely to carry out stringent CC and so are unlikely to 'out perform' over the next few years.

Stillalbatross, if you can get 2400+ of us into the DPA, or the CPU or any other political grouping, then I will gladly join with you. Its not what it is called that counts...it is what we are prepared to do. If you want to predict the future by looking into the past then yes we are doomed to failure...but then that is like driving a car looking only in the rear view mirror.

No miracles will be achieved by a new GC - even if it is far more representative than in the past. It will take unity, involvement and self sacrifice by all of us to achieve fair and equitable treatment by our coal mine owners.

[stillalbatross]

The AOA is no different to a bank offering a mortgage. In this case what's been offered by "bank AOA" for 800 a month hasn't been good for me so i'd like to get a mortgage elsewhere. Others have got some very good deals off the AOA, I haven't, so I'd like the option to shop around.

Shouldn't that be allowed? Maybe I'll find another source of representation elsewhere that's better, maybe I won't. I'd like "fair and equitable treatment" and after 7 years I can see it's never going to come from the AOA.

[Liam Gallagher]

Some more questions for you to dodge.

1. Have you ever been in the AOA?

2. If so, did you ever read any of the info the AOA put out?

3. If you have, how come you cannot get your head around the idea we have one seniority list; not one for frt and one for pax?

4. Where in this stuff have you read the AOA wants to recognise seniority from other Swire airlines? How come the KA and ASL guys have none of their seniority recognised?

Look forward to your reply......

[sizematters]

Albatross..................apparently if you quit CX they have a position for you back home................

thats right they can't find a replacement Village idiot......................

[stillalbatross]

Thanks. Unfortunately there's at least 1200 other village idiots at CX who don't want the AOA either. What's the bet that a large proportion of them would like the option to choose another representative?

I don't mind, if the AOA's been good to you then fine. But I need to change who represents me.

[Nullaman]

Dead bird

You are like an old fashioned record with a crack in it. Suspect you were removed from the breast at far too young an age.

Now run along and play:ugh:

[Numero Crunchero]

stillalbatross,
as you seem set on leaving I would advise you to contact the DPA and ask to join them. I would also suggest you contact the Teamsters - they seem to do very well with their negotiations. Also the scriptwriters guild have won their battle against hollywood. Not sure how the baseball players did against the team/club owners a couple of years back but I think they did OK. Also the Victorian school teachers just achieved a 20%+ payrise for over the next 3 years so give them a call.
I am sure somewhere out there there is a union ready to take your subs and will do everything in their power, including industrial action, to get you the fair and equitable treatment that you deserve and that the AOA couldn't get you. Lets just hope that some of our coal mine owners have their kids in Victorian public schools so that the teachers strike action, on your behalf, would actually result in you getting a payrise. Or maybe you are pretty sure the DPA will commence CC or even strike action to help you out!

Now back in the real world....the AOA is us - not 20 individuals that represent us...if WE want payrises then WE will need to be prepared to take action. Having been involved in two past 'talk fests', what management like to hypocritically call 'negotiations', I can tell you logic, fairness and peer airline comparison have absolutely NOTHING to do with getting a payrise. Put yourselves in their shoes...would you care how under or over paid your workers are if all they do is complain but continue to turn up to work? Seven years ago the average CX pilot achieved about 590 block hours(not factored, not credit). The average over last two years was close to 700 and given how many pilots I meet who are hitting the 900hr limit I suspect this years average will be above 700. So why should management feel compelled to give us a payrise?

Its really simple - we only get a payrise if not getting a payrise costs them more. It can only cost them more if people keep leaving and/or we make it cost more. In last years negotiations we asked for about 30+% over 3 years - obviously that was rejected and replaced with an imposed 3%(for some). Our proposal would have cost CX an equivalent amount to a small single digit increase to the fuel budget. Since then fuel prices have doubled...our cost is even less significant compared to the total cost of the operation. I suggest that if we all added about 10-20 to our new CI it would cost them more than our total pay proposal last year. Not that I am suggesting we do something as immoral and unprofessional as needlessly burning fuel. I think being immoral and unprofessional is best left to the experts - our coal mine owners.

[Follow the Follow Me]

Dragonair has one CX pilot.

Thank you for that.

[Buttie Box]

NC, well spoken as usual (although I was surprised by your ASL comments a few months back). A man/woman is judged on what they do, not what they say.

I sense an air of expectancy from the new GC, even if it is to formally announce CC. A lot of us are genuinely fed up, looking elsewhere and are ready. You're correct when you ask for unity and that we are not a 20-member GC but all of us. However, having canvassed the members, we do need the coordinated effort missing over the past 5 years.

I'm not afraid any more; just say the word.

The Box

[iLuvPX]

I just cant understand why people continue to defend such a worthless Association. :ugh:

I think NC's "mutual fund" theory a couple posts back comes closest to explaining it. Speculation. Since the AOA has under performed for so many years, then we should join it in the hopes that it will start to do well again? Is that it? No way to go but up? Cant get more useless than it is now?

Im afraid NC, that all you are is a great conductor, leading a small orchestra, on a sinking ship.

Welcome to the lifeboat Albatross.

[ALPHA FLOOR]

iLuvPX - your name sums it all up, sit back relax and let someone else do the dirty. Any good associations you'd care to join with albatross?

AFL

[BusyB]

Iluvpax and stillalbatross,

I don't suppose you'd consider giving to charity the equivalent of your AOA sub so as not to be a freeloader on the improvements the AOA have managed to get (not to mention the decrements they have stopped)?:ok:

[iLuvPX]

Oh yeah LazyB, im just loaded down with all the benefits the AOA has brought about. Im drowning in excess, along with everyone else:

The A-Scalers just love the pay rise you have won for them over the last decade.

The C-Scalers are tickled pink over the lower conditions you negotiated for them.

Everyone is pleased at the way you failed to defend the seniority list by allowing DECs. Bravo.

The 49er's just declared the AOA Best Friends Forever!!! They love the way you capitulated and sold them out...for the second time...to the company.

I could go on...but its a familiar theme, im sure you can fill in the rest.

Oh, and to be fair. I just loved the individually wrapped sandwiches you organized for the crew a few years back. You guys are so safety conscious. How cute.

[BusyB]

I wouldn't expect anything else of you. Thanks for confirming my opinion:ok:

[iLuvPX]

Right back at ya sweet cheeks! :D

[Numero Crunchero]

iluvpx,
I know I am probably flogging a dead horse here as you seem pretty set in your views....but....what is the alternative to collective representation? Do people honestly believe that we would be better off if we had never formed collectively? I know there is a lot of suspicion over what the AOA has done over the last few years - but if you have access to AOA info you will see that we actually have SOs, FOs and freighter guys in the new GC. So this GC is probably the most representative GC we have had for a while!

This is my last roll of the dice. If 12 months from now we have membership as low as we have now, if people are not prepared to help themselves, then I will cease being Don Quixote and will forever leave the damned windmill alone! I would say that I would post like you do then but if I get to that stage I will be too apathetic to say anything. The fact that you are prepared to keep complaining about the AOA so vociferously suggests to me that you would like to see change but you just have zero faith in the AOA GC to effect it?

There are lots of really cool sayings I could quote - such as "what the mind can conceive you can achieve" or my favourite "if you change nothing then nothing will ever change" - but at the end of the day it really is up to us. I remember reading about a company leader who said after a meeting "ok you have given me 100s of reasons why we can't do it, now start working on how we can do it".

So thats where we are today....past AOA GC's have made us revote every time they didn't like what we voted, they have not pushed for industrial action when people were crying out for it. They gave up on the 49ers. They have appeared more like the French Vichy government of WW2 than the Resistance....the list could go on and on. So, do we just give up and say there is no hope?

Call me a conducter, an optimist, or just plain naive - but I genuinely believe we can improve things. So rather than tell me 100s of ways the AOA is doomed to failure, give me a realistic way to make things better! And in case you missed the sarcasm (stillalbatross) no I don't think any other union is going to do our dirty work for us....it is up to us to fix things.

[Al E. Vator]

So rather than tell me 100s of ways the AOA is doomed to failure, give me a realistic way to make things better....it is up to us to fix things.

Numero Crunchero...wisest words spoken here for many a while. Well said.

Stop whining about what VOLUNTEERS are/are not not doing for you. Get of your collective backsides and do something for yourselves.

[iLuvPX]

NC, great points...as usual.

I have already suggested ideas for moving ahead; however, it all starts with disbanding the AOA.

From there, I'd be happy negotiating directly with the company on my own, or bringing in a professional association. One where our dues would go to hiring professional negotiators to deal with the company's professional negotiators, there by leveling the playing field.

The problem is that we have too many volunteers that have no idea what they are doing, however well intentioned. If they want to volunteer for something, go help in a soup kitchen. We have seen what happens to people who volunteer for things that are out of their depth..a la subic2hebe. Volunteering for something doesn't automatically qualify you for the job.

People on the GC should be vetted through previous job experience, schooling, prior business experience. Not put in place due to the fact they volunteered. Getting a strong, knowledgeable, and savvy GC should be number one, and if they are incapable of handling complicated tasks, like corporate negotiations, then they should hire someone who is and be quiet while the grown-ups talk.

I hope you can see the common sense in that.

PX

**I had to edit this in there to highlight my point. Just look at BusyB, one of our esteemed GC members of yore. Check out his posts, always one or two lines of catty retorts to people wanting change. He doesn't seem to have two brain cells to rub together and says nothing constructive. He embodies the juvenile performance of the broken AOA. Nothing will change with idiots like that on the GC.**

[BusyB]

I obviously hit a nerve.:}