Air India - pilots fall asleep

[Dream Land]

More information here. (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Plane_overshoots_Mumbai_as_both_pilots_go_to_sleep/articleshow/msid-3165569,curpg-1.cms)

Excerpt: 26 June

MUMBAI: An Air India Jaipur-Mumbai flight flew well past its destination with both its pilots fatigued and fast asleep in the cockpit. When the pilots were finally woken up by anxious Mumbai air traffic controllers, the plane was about half way to Goa

[Fenwicksgirl]

Just another airline pushing Flight Time Limitations as productivity targets. As we hear alot here from management at CX, "but it's legal!"

[pacplyer]

This is what happens when you're too good for the buddy system: All two/three guys wind up asleep at the switch!

Take turns you id**ts! Take turns!

Or do like Emery used to on the DC-8 and set an alarm clock up on the glareshield. But don't overshoot LAX toward HNL from Dayton because your too cheap to buy everyready! :bored: :confused: :eek:

(two hours total off shore.. they made it back on fumes)

[limp_leek]

If an airline put a few hundred pilot seats in the back they would make the passengers very happy!

If an airline put a couple of passenger seats up the front then the problem of pilots sleeping would be solved.

[Dani]

I think it's more a lack of understanding basic pricipels of CRM and bad written handbooks, together with the Asian philosophy not to show any personal weakness. Most Asian airlines don't allow short naps. That's the result sometimes.

Dani

[oldpax]

Stupid question from a SLF,If the plane left on time then the flight attendants must assume it will land on time so after overflying Mumbai didnt they get worried?Is there no way into the cockpit for them?Perhaps a dead mans handle device on the control column might help!!

[Deep and fast]

Cabin crew have to check us every 20 mins so there must be a proceedures prob with the company.

D and F:8

[cwatters]

> If an airline put a couple of passenger seats up the front then the
> problem of pilots sleeping would be solved.

How true. I once spent 14 hours on a coach across europe. I noticed the lady sitting behind the driver kept prodding him. She later complained to the tour company and told us she knew he was asleep because he'd never once complained about being prodded.

[Robert Campbell]

This piece is in today's AVweb newsletter. I like the "enhanced data collection" part

"'FAA Examines Cockpit Fatigue And Finds ...

The FAA brought together 325 experts last week to spend three days discussing the problem of fatigue in aviation operations, and the agency says the symposium produced agreement on two major points -- fatigue is a problem, and something should be done about it. No, we're not kidding -- that's from the FAA news release. 'The FAA hopes the participating individuals and organizations will use the information and concepts shared during the symposium as a springboard to develop effective fatigue management strategies,' the agency says. We're not sure what those strategies might be (dogs in the cockpit?), but reading the FAA's news release is probably not one of them. So in the interest of battling fatigue, we'll summarize.

"'Many experts consider the key to addressing the problem [to be] scientifically based fatigue risk management systems,' the FAA says. Those guiding scientific principles should be developed through "enhanced data collection.' Just to keep us off-balance (and alert), the FAA turned up one useful suggestion -- it was noted that employees who excuse themselves from duty due to fatigue should not be penalized.

"'The conferees recognized that incorporating fatigue risk-management systems into everyday operations is the ultimate goal, but doing so will take innovation in addressing a myriad of regulatory issues,' the FAA concluded, and we hope you stayed awake till the end of that sentence.":ugh:

AVwebFlash Complete Issue (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1149-full.html#198180)

[Austrian Simon]

MUMBAI: An Air India Jaipur-Mumbai flight flew well past its destination with both its pilots fatigued and fast asleep in the cockpit. When the pilots were finally woken up by anxious Mumbai air traffic controllers, the plane was about half way to Goa

That story is a gross misinterpretation of the real events. Problem being, that the big news agencies have just taken up on that original story ...

Incident: Indian Airlines A320 at Mumbai on June 4th 2008, loss of communication, pilots allegedly asleep (http://avherald.com/h?article=408ca56c)

Servus, Simon

[cwatters]

The original report said..

"Said an air traffic controller: "The aircraft should have begun its descent about 100 miles from Mumbai, but here it was still at cruising altitude".

So perhaps more than just a comms issue?

[carbis22]

Would it be safe to say that one pilot falling asleep due fatigue is quite unlikely? two pilots falling asleep due fatigue?? not realistic!!
some other factor in the cabin more likely?

[bArt2]

Would it be safe to say that one pilot falling asleep due fatiue is quite unlikely? two pilots falling asleep due fatigue?? not realistic!!



No it wouldn't in my opinion :oh:

Greetings, Bart

[rasobey]

What about the cockpit alarm that sounds if no input is made to a dial/switch/etc by one of the pilots after X minutes? Non-functional or am I making this up?

[carbis22]

more like something put them to sleep? In my opinion it is highly unlikely that both pilots fell asleep naturally due fatigue at the exact same time?
One pilot would have nodded of first, I am presuming that the pilot NOT asleep would have noticed this and maybe gave him/her a nudge?
The only plausable explanation would be that something put them asleep at the exact same time, unless this is a common occurence for pilots to take naps together at the same time whilst approaching their destination?
find that very hard to believe?

[Robert Campbell]

So now we can add PA and PNA to the list of acronyms. Pilot Asleep and Pilot Not Asleep.:)

[pacplyer]

Pretty standard public reaction. :)

This is why this problem never gets fixed. All these armchair aviators and SLF in a state of shock that a guy who is on duty for over 16 hours straight isn't entitled to a break of any kind. What other job keeps you doing demanding tasks this long? Just stare straight ahead with your eyelids propped open by toothpicks, and pretend to be looking out the window like superman? The issue is microsleeps. Involuntary periods where even though your eyes are open; the lights are on, but nobody's home. :zzz: Recall how ticked off you were when some idiot woke you up at 2am for nothing. This is a pilots normal life operating when body temp and organs start shutting themselves down because, says your body: "dummy: it's time to go to sleep."

Even doctors and surgeons leave their patients on automation and go take a nap in a closet. Otherwise, when full brain function is really needed (like a difficult landing or cardiac arrest) all you've got is a groaning mummy hovering over the accident waiting to happen.

Pilot pushing has created this problem. Solution is dedicated onboard rest facilities and heavy crew imho. Until more of that is agreed to, the thrillseekers in the back will have have just hope that the Pilot Flying doesn't fall asleep on base turn for intercept like we occasionally did on the redeye. Kind of embarrassing to shoot through the localizer cuz crew control won't quit mixing redeyes with day flights week after week.

Makes me not want to travel in the back!

[777300ER]

pacplyer,

Although I agree with all your statements, I think these guys do have to take some blame here. We as pilots are paid to be the last loop in a very complex system. When all of the contributing factors (which you have pointed out quite nicely) line up, it's up to us to end the chain. If these guys started their day so tired, they should have simply reported unfit. Regardless of state rules, airline policy, etc., we have a duty to report unfit when necessary. Imagine how angry you would be if you got on a bus and the driver kept falling asleep. Who would you blame (bus company, government, police)? I would blame the driver.

[Bobbsy]

@carbis22

I don't find it suspicious at all that two pilots can fall asleep at around the same time.

I'm only one of the dreaded slf, but you only have to read these forums a bit to see that both of them could be at the end of a very long working day which could well have started at an unsocial hour after a partial and fitful night's sleep.

Add to this the fact that the flight deck is warm and comfortable (well comfortable if not a 777 seat--see, I do read these things!) and features a background "white noise" from the wind which is not dis-similar to the sort of "sleep generator" you can buy and I can see exactly why sleep is an issue.

Obviously there are CRM issues going on here which I won't comment on, not being a pilot myself. However, when I hear of regulators trying to slacken even more the rules about duty hours and off time, professional pilots certainly have my active support in opposing such changes.

Bobbsy

[Dream Land]

The airport authority of Mumbai denies, that the pilots were asleep Does this surprise anyone?

[carbis22]

@bobbsy

I also agree that many worker's work to long a shift and pilots in line with any driver's of trains, buses ect have to be 100% focused on the job,
is it a common occurance for pilots to sleep on the job?
I dont think train/bus driver's do whatever the hours worked and onset of shift?
If they were asleep naturally they are out of order, if they were put to sleep by contaminent then that's a different matter altogether,
best wait and find out what really happened hey?

[Austrian Simon]

The original report said..
"Said an air traffic controller: "The aircraft should have begun its descent about 100 miles from Mumbai, but here it was still at cruising altitude".
So perhaps more than just a comms issue?

There was a lapse of radio frequency, reason unknown. The crew noticed this after a couple of minutes, changed to the correct frequency and re-established communication by themselves. No SELCAL, alerts or ATC waking the pilots up was involved. The source is completely unsuspicious of trying a cover up.

As I said, a gross misinterpretation of events.

Servus, Simon

[Dream Land]

The airline also said that the pilots were not woken up by the SELCAL buzzer. However, a top official of Mumbai Air Traffic Control confirmed that SELCAL was indeed used to establish contact with the pilots. SELCAL, or selective calling, sounds like a buzzer in an aircraft's cockpit when the ATC dials the exclusive four-alphabet combo assigned to an aircraft. from Times of India, 27 June

gross misinterpretation of eventsRight, please explain how a modern A320 loses communication, and then please explain why a pilot over flys a destination at cruise altitude, believe what you want. :ugh:

[Ladusvala]

777300ER
A bus driver can stop the bus to rest anytime.
The problem for us pilots is that it´s impossible to know that ex. "I´m about to start a 4 hour flight but 3 hours from now I will not be able to stay awake, so I have to report unfit for flight." Sometimes I have expected to be very tired during a flight but it turned out to be no problem at all to stay awake. Other times I have been surprised that I have had such a problem staying awake. It´s often impossible to know.

Carbis22
Both pilots will probably have had the exakt same working hours the last days as pilots normally are paired together for up to 5 days. With that in mind I find it very likely that they both will be tired at about the same time.
When you yourself have great problems staying awake it´s not likely that you will notice that the other guy also is dog tired.

I once had a captain fall asleep during approach. That was after he armed the autopilot for an ILS approach at 5000 ft. The autopilot captured the ILS and I noticed the captain nodding off but since I myself was not tired at all, I let him sleep. The captain woke up at 2500 ft and executed a nice landing.
Later on I expected the captain to take himself off the schedule but he didn´t. We both finished the day without having any problem staying awake.
(If I had also been tired I would have protested. We hadn´t had a very pressing schedule and the only reason for the captain falling asleep must have been the very early morning flight.)

[pacplyer]

There was a lapse of radio frequency, reason unknown. The crew noticed this after a couple of minutes, changed to the correct frequency and re-established communication by themselves. No SELCAL, alerts or ATC waking the pilots up was involved. The source is completely unsuspicious of trying a cover up.

As I said, a gross misinterpretation of events.

Servus, Simon
Last edited by Austrian Simon : Today at 23:53.

Sounds fishy. Reading the article made it sound like a first-hand account from ATC about what happened. But O.K, having flown in india some I guess I'll go along with this version! :}

Did they go into holding or just blow past the old Bombay Vor I wonder?

Silly me. "It's just Chinatown Jake."
Nothing to see here folks. Move along! Move along!

[White Knight]

Dreamland - a modern Airbus CAN lose comms if 'finger trouble' is involved. If the offside ACP has been used to retune the other box then selection can easily be mismade. I never let the F/O try retuning VHF1 when I'm PNF 'cos mistakes with the selection CAN EASILY BE MADE..... And likewise when I'm PF I never touch VHF1 - unless I've taken it so F/O can make a call on VHF 2 or 3....

[pool]

come on guys!
For those not used to six legs, first leg 0500 and last flight arrival 2330, six days on two off - or ULR flights, 15 hours in a tube with 5 hours "rest" in a coffin somewhere between toilets and galleys, starting at 0200 and getting 20 hours off and having to sleep during daytime when the roomservice bangs their hoovers on your door and comes in even with "do-not-disturb" hung out to check the mini bar, just to have a nice night 9 hour subcontinental turnaraound the next day ....
For those not used to it this incident might sound strange or foul....
For us it does not. How many times did one of us fall asleep as the other takes a power nap?? How many times do you shreck-up after a microsleep on the ILS after a empty quarter 200km vectoring in the sandpit??
With the kind of managers at the helm today it is no longer an incident, but a consequence. No one wants to hear anything about fatigue and when they do, they hand it over to a quarterpounded medical from dubious origin in their very own medical facility (after scaring the living daylight out of the first such poor guy filing a report asking for more rest) plus they come up with the eternal "....we will look into it" and give the scam over to a surveying commitee with as much field experience and competence as Doubleyou.

We are alone to cope with it and to bear any consequence of this cynism.:yuk:

[Dream Land]

Dreamland - a modern Airbus CAN lose comms if 'finger trouble' is involved. If the offside ACP has been used to retune the other box then selection can easily be mismade. I never let the F/O try retuning VHF1 when I'm PNF 'cos mistakes with the selection CAN EASILY BE MADE..... And likewise when I'm PF I never touch VHF1 - unless I've taken it so F/O can make a call on VHF 2 or 3....This is not a comm failure, it's called a cockup, there is a big difference, are you just going to sit there, fat dumb and happy flying past the descent point, I think not. Most people on this thread understand what happened, some don't understand what damage control means.

[FullWings]

Dreamland,

From the CAA:

'Sleeping' Receivers

A series of incidents has been reported where ATC was unable to contact an aircraft that had previously established two-way communication with the ground controller. In almost every case, satisfactory reception was only restored after a transmission from the affected aircraft. ... The CAA is aware of more than 250 incidents of missed calls since 1999. CAA Air Traffic specialists led a team with representatives from NATS, EUROCONTROL, Thales and British Airways to investigate this issue and recommend actions to CAA to address 'sleeping receivers' causing prolonged loss of communication.

The investigation revealed that on a small but critical percentage of occasions, the aircraft communications transceiver failed to return from the transmitting to the receiving state. To mitigate this problem, one transceiver manufacturer has devised and published a non-mandatory service bulletin. The recent incorporation of this service bulletin into the ATC transceivers carried by a major UK airline has proved to be completely successful, but the CAA believes that this problem is very likely to be replicated in other transceivers...

[NOTSURE]

Spot on, pool!:cool:

And there are "airlines", in India, for example, that roster you on a 6 days ON/6 sectors ops, and then give you ONE day OFF!
And then do it again, and again........... what about that?

With ever more effective bean-counters squizzing last drops of our life juice left, pilots are nowadays pushed to work longer hours then cashier at the drugstore, or truck drivers in europe, for that matter....... I wonder what would the travelling public say, if they know the truth?

In those countries where "economies are on the rise" as they like to percieve, coupled with total disrespect for bacis workers rights (and no-one to defend you), pushing pilots to work BEYOND the phisiological limits of our bodies is the norm.....

And yes, we are left ourselves to deal with the problem!
LAst but not least, the guys in the boardroom don't give a :mad: of positively certain long term health impact on pilot population being abused in such a manner!

Time to wake up:E

[NVpilot]

Full, good information but this incident is about sleeping pilots, not radios, radios worked as advertised from what I read.

NP

[veloo maniam]

Was the airplane sqawking A7600?:ok:

[candoo]

Well I'm flying Air India LHR-JFK tomorrow afternoon should I volunteer to be a "flight deck prodder" ooh er missus.

[Smilin_Ed]

About 1964, I was climbing out of San Juan around midnight in a Four-Engine Turboprop. The aircraft commander, the co-pilot (yours truly) and
the flight engineer all fell asleep. I woke up and discovered the other two guys asleep and we were several thousand feet above our planned level off altitude. Stuff happens. :eek:

[cwatters]

Re Sleeping recievers: It's can't really be that. Must have been a comms failure in both directions.

[kleerdam]

If those rumors are true, well this is just the shorts the movie is yet to come, because a few months back the Min desolved the work and rest period for the flight crews so this the answer to his action.

[ankh]

This reminds me of an old joke:

"I want to die like my grandfather did, quietly, in his sleep --- not wide awake and screaming in fear the way his passengers did."

[alouette3]

"Scientifically based fatigue risk mangement sytem" "Enhanced data collection"

Are you kidding me!!?? :(After all these years there is still NO DATA? and so far the risk management has neen UNSCIENTIFIC??!!!:confused:
Well,I guess it will be about 10 years for them to collect data and then analyze it 'scientifically'.So my next flight in an airliner will be in 2018-----:}.
Just goes to show---between operators and regulators we will continue falling between stools or--is it---stalling between fools???;)
At any rate ,stupid is as stupid does.
Alt3.

[ZAGORFLY]

another antiterrorism (close door) result. God bless America. BTW does the airbus FMGS put the aircraft on Hold pattern at the last way point like the Boeing does?

[Airbubba]

God bless America.

Thanks, I agree, we are very blessed in this great nation!

Here's another recent news item about an Indian aviation safety issue:

India grounds drunk pilots

By Bappa Majumdar June 26, 2008 12:13pm

AROUND 50 pilots each year in India are being grounded because they had consumed alcohol before taking a flight, say the country's civil aviation authorities.

Dozens of pilots are found to have consumed alcohol during routine pre-medical tests every year in India, said the Director General of Civil Aviation, Kanu Gohain.

A flight from India's capital to the eastern city of Patna was cancelled last Saturday after a routine medical test on crew members revealed the pilot had consumed alcohol.

"We do catch pilots who had taken alcohol routinely and so does the airlines," said Mr Gohain.

"We have strict guidelines for alcohol intake and any operating crew is pulled up immediately, and the airlines too can punish crew members," he said by telephone from Mumbai.

Civil aviation rules specify that pilots and cabin crew cannot consume alcohol 12 hours before taking a flight.

A pilot can be grounded for three months and he can lose his license if he repeats the mistake again, said Mr Gohain...

India grounds drunk pilots | NEWS.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,26058,23925263-5014090,00.html)

Indian aviation with the boom is reaching the size of a major U.S. carrier, 50 pilots testing drunk a year would be a lot in my experience.

[whwh]

Excuse my ignorance but can they check the black box for this............ (this in relation to pilots falling asleep).....not alcohol...

[HAWK21M]

And there are "airlines", in India, for example, that roster you on a 6 days ON/6 sectors ops, and then give you ONE day OFF!
And then do it again, and again........... what about that?

Which airline is that?
Noticed something about FDTL :)

The CVR has a continous recording of the last 2 hrs.

regds
MEL

[galaxy flyer]

Smilin Ed: Would that have been operating for Mr. E.A. Stern?

[Airbubba]

Two pilots discussion:

"Do you mind if I take a short nap?"
"No, no problem, go ahead -I have control and radios"

Then it's getting extremely quiet on the flight deck and naturally the other (and only) pilot falls asleep due to fatigue.

I've sure been there and done that more than once, not that I would admit it...:)

[dss3000]

Enjoy the View!!!!

No WX for 500 Miles in Monsoon season!!!! and ATC frenquency quiet??? into Mumbai!!!!!!
Have you flown in India lately??? or are you just an arm chair pilot!!

[GSMini]

I second what dss3000 is saying, hehe.

Mumbai right now is a nasty place to fly to, bad wx, a loooooooooooot of traffic congestion with a loooooooooooot of ATC guys shouting to you if you don´t answer to their first call..so yeah..definitely all but quiet going there:}

By the way, expat contracts are those on 6 ON / 1 OFF . And yeah, it´s tiring and yeah the new FDTL doesn´t help at all.

ReGarDS!

[dss3000]

Enjoy the view

My appologies, I guess I didn't realize you were making a general comment on the subject.

I agree Iv'e taken a nap on many occasions, I guess I'm just lucky I woke up before my partner did the same.

[carbis22]

We are alone to cope with it and to bear any consequence of this cynism.:yuk:


IF everyone spoke up and out about such situations especially to the media, this issue would not be an issue!!

speak up for yourself's, do something about it and do not allow this treatment or the cost will be much greater than your pay packet!!