RAAF ATC Staffing Levels

[Showa Cho]

G'day all,

A little birdie tells me that at the end of last week, somewhere between 15 and 20 RAAF ATCs resigned. Most are headed to other providers. This represents around 10% of the ATC category (my guess). That kind of percentage would hurt any organisation.

I am also lead to believe it is not just disgruntled bograts - people in higher positions are also headed for other (not necessarily greener) pastures.

This week will be a very interesting one for the category. I wonder what band-aid practice the RAAF will implement this time? After all, we can't have blunts being paid more than aircrew now, can we.......?

It looks like ATC shortages worldwide are effecting all providers.

Good luck, whatever side of the fence you are on. SATC - start to ramp up!

Sayonara,

Showa Cho.

[Keg]

I know of two WGCDR ATCO's who have resigned in the last month. Hope they've found greener pastures. It's great for colleagues of mine who may not be promoted into great gigs because of it. :ok:

[flightfocus]

Probably all their blue suit buddies in Air No Services giving them a leg up and free angle into the desired jobs.... :eek:

[virgindriver]

I wouldn't mind if the departures mostly came from Townsville. :E

[Capt.Grumpy]

I wouldn't mind if the departures mostly came from Townsville.


We can only live in hope. Townsville is without a doubt the most incompetent bunch in the country. They seem to be able to find new ways to delay and generally fcuk you around on a daily basis :ugh:

Mind you I base this assessment on being the only military controlled airport I fly into. Perhaps other RAAF aerodromes are worse (I shudder to think).

[Condition lever]

Try Sydney - 2nd best ATCs in the world

[noip]

By world standards that I've seen, Sydney is pretty good .... try JFK for a laugh.

[scran]

Hey Keg,


Can you PM me with the names of the two WGCDR's?

Thanks

[NZScion]

In my short experience in the Top End, I have found the controllers at RAAF Tindal great, in particular, there is often one with a South African accent who is always brilliant. Darwin is also good, although I'm not sure if the controllers there are civ/mil.

[RENURPP]

NZScion,
Out of interest what experience do you have operating into and out of capital city airports?

[Dick Smith]

Virgindriver and Capt.Grumpy, please don’t blame the individual controllers. I think you will find that it is the leadership. The RAAF is using some of the most archaic rules in history – more suited to British Colonial India than Australia in the 21st century. This is the type of leadership which resulted in $1 billion being lost on the Seasprite helicopter project.

Our military air traffic controllers in Townsville and all around Australia are totally let down by the people in Canberra who should be showing the proper leadership.

By the way, there is now a $50,000 award for the best investigative article on the Super Seasprite fiasco – see here (http://www.dicksmithflyer.com.au/Seasprite_offer.php).

[Capt.Grumpy]

NO Dick, I am in and out of the place two or three times a week and the individual controllers just can't cut the mustard. It has nothing to do with their leadership or Canberra.

[Track Coastal]

Cut to the chase Grumpy and virgindriver stop flirting on the edges. We want examples and war stories dammit!;)


It has nothing to do with their leadership
Betcha it DOES (its allright, the supervisor will 'save you' even tho you are a bumbling grommet), and THEIR leadership (ATC - 44Wing) is in Williamtown NOT Canberra.

An App controller with 15+ years continuously talking to aircraft (sectors, outstation towers, Enroute all adds up) in the civil world is the norm. In most TCUs there are those with 15+ in THAT TCU. No-one, I repeat NO-ONE in the RAAF has that time up (OK I know 2) of 15 years continuously 'talking' to aircraft (say 12,000 hours of airtime, (15000 - 3000 hours of talking footy)). RAAFwise, its a quick 2 -3 years in each of 3 - 4 locales, some deployments on a medal hunt (mostly flights service "traffic is" but occasionally separation).

...and then try to pick up the extra half stripe to be a senior officer and run the show at the units. The object of RAAF ATCers is to be headset off and kow towing to Williamtown within 12 years of going to your unit.

PS I learned my trade in blue and have in excess of 15,000 hours of TCU 'time'. I keep a record. You can't expect to be half decent at the job and then tell others how to do it if you haven't the time up (the maydays, Pans, VFR in IMC, yada yada, put a B1900 in a 9 mile 'hole' maintaining 200kias whilst talking footy etc)

[RAAFASA]

In the interests of professional development (although I haven't worked in Townsville since 1996, I still have friends and colleagues there to whom I will gladly pass on any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism as opposed to general whingeing) would you care to be specific?

There are talented vs average controllers everywhere, just as there are vast differences in piloting ability.

I have worked both Darwin and Townsville (yes, the RAAF provides all DAR ATC out to 40nm - even though the bulk of the traffic is civvy) and have yet to work alongside an ATC who deliberately stuffs pilots around. ("Vectoring for controller amusement" being an in-joke rather than a procedure).

There are several common faults:
1) Pilots fly one aircraft at a time, ATCs manage xx number of acft. So each time you feel you are getting faffed around, there's no doubt someone else on freq who's getting a really good run (albeit at your expense). This not only occurs due to ATC ability - other factors include, traffic density, acft performance, weather, terrain etc..

Also, RAAF bases tend to have very little airspace (40nm = about 6-7 minutes from receiving a B737 on freq to handing it off to TWR). The surrounding airspace belongs to ASA and we don't get the benefits of maestro or a dedicated Flow controller. If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN) and I only have 40nm to do something about, then one of them is in for some extra track miles. Without a flow controller, then when APP is busy inside their 40nm, looking out to 100nm to check someone else's airspace to coordinate speed restrictions etc just doesn't happen.

So, although you may feel that you are getting the rough end of the pineapple, you are not the only pilot in the sky, sunshine. If you require priority you are not receiving - feel free to declare the appropriate emergency - otherwise enjoy the view from your window and be glad you have such a great office.

2) It is often true that RAAF bases have a hefty training debt. This is due to our current 3 year posting cycle, which few civil ATC centres have. At the coalface we have long been requesting longer postings and it is being looked into by the brass. Currently it can take 6- 18 months in location to achieve all ratings (APP and TWR) depending on whether the trainee is an experienced ATC from another base or ab initio.

So approx 1/3 of the section at any given time is either new to the area or new to the whole job. Meanwhile, expect it to get worse before it gets better as ASA have finally chosen to "show us the money", recognising experience levels over 5 years so the exit door now appears chocked open.

With appropriate deference to Mr Smith's concilatory comment about those of us at the coal face being hampered by restrictive rules from above, I'd like to point out that military and civil controllers operate by the same rule book - the Manual of Air Traffic Services. While there are definitely different procedures for different operations, the basic separation standards (3nm radar, 1000ft vert, visual sep etc) apply.

Finally - any pilots who are unhappy with the service provided to them should contact the SATCO (Senior Air Traffic Control Officer) at the relevant base to discuss their concerns. (Just look up the base in your local white pages and ask for ATC). It is highly unlikely that things will improve just because you whinge about it on PPRUNE. Let us know your concerns and we'll try to address them. But, please, be specific and professional rather than just pi$$ed off. (Or let us know your callsign so we can REALLY take care of you next time....;))

[wesky]

By the way, there is now a $50,000 award for the best investigative article on the Super Seasprite fiasco – see here.

Thread drift alert!

Dick, I need a couple of double digit $mils to start a new, worthwhile, 100% Oz owned & loyale (to it's Staff, the Industry & Consumer) Airline to take the place of Qantas's shoes... can you spare some $$,$$$,$$$.$$? Just enough for a couple of leased 330's, several 319's and a 340! The fella over at Dubai wont lend it to me :bored:

All in all, that $1bil would of got it (& and the industry) all set up nicely. A shame we wasted it on sardine cans with pull rings as rotors!

Thread back on track + apologies.

[No Further Requirements]

I don't think this thread was started to be a whinge-fest. I think it was to show that all areas of aviation are in a bind - RAAF ATC being another one that will effect a lot of customers, civil and military.

I did my 'apprenticeship' with the RAAF and I agree - more time at a base, especially the joint user ones, will mean a better level of corporate knowledge and therefore customer satisfaction (better controllers). And I think it would fix some of the retention issues.

I hope this turns out well for all.

Cheers,

NFR.

[RENURPP]

RAAFSA,

You have outlined the problem quite nicley.
1) is partially only a sympton.
Also, RAAF bases tend to have very little airspace (40nm = about 6-7 minutes from receiving a B737 on freq to handing it off to TWR). The surrounding airspace belongs to ASA and we don't get the benefits of maestro or a dedicated Flow controller. If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN) and I only have 40nm to do something about, then one of them is in for some extra track miles. Without a flow controller, then when APP is busy inside their 40nm, looking out to 100nm to check someone else's airspace to coordinate speed restrictions etc just doesn't happen.
2) is the problem, along with what I percieve to be the two organisations not working as one unit. If they did the 40nm boundary would not even be an issue, nor should it be.
Unless ASA take over the RAAF ATC function at places like Darwin and Townsville there is little, no there is NO point phoning the SATCO as he/she can do nothing about the poor level of service.
It has taken me 17 yrs of trying to learn that lesson.

[Track Coastal]

Also, RAAF bases tend to have very little airspace (40nm = about 6-7 minutes from receiving a B737 on freq to handing it off to TWR). The surrounding airspace belongs to ASA and we don't get the benefits of maestro or a dedicated Flow controller. If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN) and I only have 40nm to do something about, then one of them is in for some extra track miles. Without a flow controller, then when APP is busy inside their 40nm, looking out to 100nm to check someone else's airspace to coordinate speed restrictions etc just doesn't happen.
Tell me this is a joke. Please.

Errrrr...ahem...most TCUs are 30 -40 miles champ.

40 track miles to run in a jet? 10mins (maybe 9 with a keener in a 717, maybe 11 with jetstar's slowdown to safe fuel thingy). 2 aircraft are a problem? Get No1 to give you 310+ and get No2 to give you 270.

If 2 acft are handed off in such a way that indicates a dead heat to the rwy (as frequently occurred in DN

Lucky no one else gets dead heats.:rolleyes: Those procedural fellas at Rocky, Mackay and Maroochy must be killing chickens to make the dark arts work so smoothly (blue chickens for the ex RAAFie controllers at those units).

Maroochy moves more traffic procedurally from the TWR than TVL does with a TCU.

Nurse! Nurse!:ugh::ugh:

[Howard Hughes]

I wouldn't mind if the departures mostly came from Townsville.
I wouldn't mind if Willy was permanently a CTAF(ARRR)...;)

[RAAFASA]

"Errrrr...ahem...most TCUs are 30 -40 miles champ."

Well aware of that. The difference is that most TCUs (ie those run by ASA) are also serviced by enroute sectors (also run by ASA) and have the benefit of FLOW control/maestro (also run by ASA). I take my hat off to procedural twr gurus in busy environments, but let's compare granny smiths and golden delicious here - both DN and TL are radar environments.

It often seems to me that inbound acft are "dumped" at the RAAF boundary. If they were subject to FLOW treatment the confliction would have been solved with a minor speed restriction at 80nm instead of a heavy one (or, more likely vectors) inside 40nm.

For example, (at a southern base) we are often handed off an acft at our 40nm boundary and told it has a set course time of XXXXX at 0020 and will probably need some vectors. The XXXXX point is a 40nm IFR reporting/hold point for a capital city airport under ASA control. It is 20nm in from our boundary. So to make it fit we have to give a severe dogleg vector - if the vector were commenced in the enroute sectors airspace the vector could be a much gentler one.

Doesn't bother our military folk much to be flung around the sky, but I think it rather harsh to turn a 737 full of pax 60 degrees for 15nm only to then turn them back again. (I always offer the pilot a holding pattern if they'd prefer and if it's available - but still, pax don't like that whole "oh we're turning around" feeling - I don't when I fly anyway).

I agree that OZ ATC would be a great deal smoother with one ATC provider, however both DN and TL provide outstanding development for RAAF ATCs (and ASA likes us so much more with those ratings in our little blue book!)

[Track Coastal]

Bollocks,

ADATS can see them coming (I'm ex RAAF - SURAD, Siemens Watchman and ADATS) . The designation of a FLOWs is internal management (eg CS does not have Maestro) policy, the utilisation of the whizz/prayer wheel by your flow controller is at management's discretion (betcha most don't know how to use one), again internal. IF you have a FLOW its 44 Wg's decision, but when I was a supervisor, your job was to control by remote - check them out before they are ready and the Sup can't piss or **** just watch these clowns work, if you are lucky you get a good controller that lets you leave tp fill a coffee cup or piss.

Panic at a two way tie on handoff OH NOOOOOOO.:ugh:

270 in a 737 buys you 5 miles. A 10deg kick perp to the field on first contact buys you another 5 (1 in 60 rule). There is 10.

Repeat after me..."Virgin xxx, reduce to 270 knots, turn L/R 10 degrees due sequencing, you are number 5 to land, 45 track miles to run"

I know a few controllers that feed TVL, THEY OFFER a lot of stuff...they shake their head when their unsolicited FLOW is rejected but they do watch the airshow, I bet.

[RENURPP]

Track coastal,

You obviously have a better understanding of what does or doesn't happen, your comments mirror my perceptions of.
It can be a truely frustrating subject.

[Track Coastal]

DN in the 90s mate (people from around then are at CS, MC, BN, SY, ML, AD, PH, overseas etc etc)

I've always felt that if you ARE going to dick around some pointy thing with people on board, when they call the TWR at around 5 miles, they can SEE who they are following on 1 mile final or the TWR is giving 'get off my runway' instructions to some lightie...it saves the skip calling up enquiring as to the tour they just got. A touch of speed and a strategic 10degs saves an airshow.

The shock and awe at the two tied with 40 to run is amusing...nah *ROFLMAO*

[RAAFASA]

Thank you for your sensationalism - perhaps a journo in previous life?

There is no panic. Even when the 2 way tie is only one sequencing issue out of many (17 acft on freq, including 2x4 ships of F18s - counted as 2, not 8 of the 17 - mixing it with everything from commercial jets to C172s, arrivals, departures and instrument approach training etc). It doesn't make my life any more uncomfortable - just the acft and its pax that have to be significantly vectored, held, reduced etc.

And as far as using small degrees of speed control in such a small airspace - exactly how many track miles do you reckon it takes for a jet to slow from 400+ knots to 270? Even throwing the anchors out, remember your still looking at only 40nm to the threshold - the confliction will occur svereal miles before that and there are other acft to consider as well!) By the time they've reached the 270 they've travelled far enough to cause another confliction.

Things have changed since you deserted the SS RAAFtanic, we no longer rate people with the provision of supervision (normal, normal). Now, when someone is rated it means "here you go, chum, we're short staffed today so you'll be doing supertower with another boggie SMC/PLN". Obviously our roster writers try incredibly hard to avoid this scenario, but it's hard to make a patchwork quilt with half the materials .... and it's gonna get harder real soon!

But the point initally was that this perception that RAAFies deliberately faff civvy acft around or are all basically incompetent is crap. Sure, there are some who believe that we are only allotted a certain number of heartbeats in our lifetime and so are reluctant to work that little bit harder - but you'll find those in any company, occupation or local pub.

The majority are professional, hard working (we don't get paid for our overtime) and trying to provide the best service we can with the tools available (ADATS is crap, bring back IRDS). I've worked for the dark side, too, and I don't think ASA is any better run - I wish you guys all the best for better pay and conditions.

To simply say that TL ATC sucks is neither accurate nor productive. Contact the SATCO, phone, email, write or even visit the controllers to air your concerns, contact your local MP if it suits you better - but provide specifics - date, time, scenario (from your vantage point). If the tapes were pulled you may well see there was a lot of other stuff going on that you were unaware of. Or you may find that you are justified in having your knickers in a knot. Either way, you raise awareness of the issue (yours and/or theirs).:bored:

[Track Coastal]

Most jets descend at around 300, the A320 can give you 340 BUT Jetstar is on a fuel saving thing and prefers 280ish (BA46 stuff). Min clean on the Virgin 700s is around 210, the 320 and QFs old TJs is 220.

If you keep em on the STAR and its hands free, most will take the speed before vectors as long as the aircraft is still clean.

exactly how many track miles do you reckon it takes for a jet to slow from 400+ knots to 270
I reckon a couple of old 76 drivers may have pushed 350 hand flying(Keg?) BUT its INDICATED AIRSPEED son...

(When I say 270, its KIAS, even tho he's motoring at 350GS.)

PS If everyone is at 220 you can still do the sudoku :E

[Track Coastal]

Things have changed since you deserted the SS RAAFtanic,
Luke, I'm your father (If you like moving aircraft come over mate, as in metal moving* and remember your WGCDRs and GPCAPTs are our old peers).

*metal moving as opposed to pole climbing.

[celeritas]

Gotta laugh there TC. I am one of the 90's DN guys and you summed it up nicely!!! RAAF doesn't have the talent pool that they once had and haven't had it since the exodus began back in the mid 90's. As for the honcho's once being our peers - I gotta say that is scary!!

[BurglarsDog]

As ex TVL I believe this was a major issue years ago.
Townsville Traffic Management Plan anyone ?
Various RAPAC meetings discussed the problem, but no one took ownership of the responsibility to produce one. Of course with the Mil there were always distractions, and over the years the odd war and war game detachment (primary task?) have often got in the way of creating an effective TMP or allowing any effective follow up to any proposed changes that could have made TVL more effective at what it does. And, leadership and direction were often absent as certain well qualified or higher ranking individuals ( the experienced Sups and Training officers for example) were often spirited away at short notice with no real consideration for the impact on training or the provision of ATC services to Jo Public; at what is advertised as an International Airport.
And in the absence of any proactive flow / sequencing from Brissy, often the only way for the App controller to "cope" when busy, was to rely on the supervisor standing behind him / her directing operations:
"This is The sequence ...this is my Plan ... make it so number 1!"
Often the only way the Sup could do this with any degree of safety and expedition, was to rely on the application of the unwritten rules called "corporate knowledge", and the experience and lessons learned from the successes / misjudgements made over previous years on the customer (hence the complaints within this post). When he moved on, this knowledge and skill set also moved on, thereby distilling further the all round effectiveness of those left behind; as is the case now I understand.
These are not new comments but I understand that with ASA now "gloves off" regarding the hiring of controllers, and staff much higher up the food chain, (acting OC 44 WG for example - good luck M by the way!) this staffing problem within the Mil may have some real Operational, and, dare I say it, potential flight safety issues down the track.
Where to from here anyone?
Should ASA take over all Mil Bases ? After all, and almost uniquely worldwide - same rules, regs, docs and staff in waiting!:ooh:

Good luck to all involved (though Luck shouldnt come into it)

DogGone::hmm:

[virgindriver]

Capt Grumpy - anything constructive?

I could probably start by saying,

1. use correct phraseology, especially the sequence of instructions

2. not giving us more than 3 instructions at once

3. ILS operational but can't descend below 2000 till 6 DME? Still haven't found that NOTAM.

Just off the top of my head.

[Funk]

It begs the question why the hell are Townsville and Darwin still RAAF airports when they have no permanent aircraft based their?
As a former Tops man it was near thing as to who was worse, our AsA procedures t/l's or DN satco's. My favourite was the 11 mile wide corridor 40DN to abm TN one our brainiacs came up with between two restricted airpaces for the major jet routes in and out of Darwin....special :ugh:

It is the same old problem for the military, they do not provide a living wage for ATC's on top of the 3 year posting rotations. I remember once visiting AMB App back in the 90's and the most senior guy there had 18 months at AMB everybody else in cluding the SATC had less than 12 months.

[whisk01]

Gents (and Lady),

Let's have a reality check here.

1) The minimum IQ set for entry to RAAF ATC is well above average, meaning that you aren't dealing with dunces, as much as it may come across that way from where you sit. Inexperienced, yes. Dumb, absolutely not. Two of the three most intelligent and calculating individuals I know work in DN (the other is a professor of Astronomy). One or two individuals make me roll my eyes occasionally, but that's life. The fact that so many are poached to work in Civil airports should dispel this myth.

2) DN ATC in the '90's had 72,000-101,000 moves/year (depending on year), in the same zone as it currently has. DNs average MTOW had also risen significantly since then (remember Air North used to fly C210s?), I can't back this part up with stats however. The IFR proportion would likely also have been significantly lower. Any thought that you and your peers were somehow more gifted than the current crop is absolute ****e. Get over yourself. "The older I get, the better I was" springs to mind.

3) RENURPP, I know who you are and I'm quite good with voices. I won't embarrass you by publishing your stuffups over the years - but there's been plently of them. As a start, you have been on board during two level busts in the last few months (hint: think hard about your level assignment at ~28nm as this was the same spot, same level each time). Contrary to your belief, you are not God's gift to Aviation and whilst your attempts to fly 'by the numbers' is admirable, the reality is that your Company peers are generally of a higher standard than yourself. I don't generally discuss this publicly because I think it's offensive to badmouth without being constructive. Obviously you don't share this view.

To reiterate others thoughts, if you have constructive advice, phone the SATCO and ask to possibly review a specific incident with him. All (bar a very few) of the RAAF ATCs I know give it their all every day to ensure you get their best possible service.

A bit of mutual respect would go a long way in this debate. I don't normally post on here, but the disrespect by some of you is intolerable. I won't respond further and I suggest some of you do the same, for the sake of the (original) discussion.

[Chicken Lips]

Luke, I'm your father (If you like moving aircraft come over mate, as in metal moving* and remember your WGCDRs and GPCAPTs are our old peers).

*metal moving as opposed to pole climbing.

Ahh it's good to things haven't changed TC :rolleyes:

[No Further Requirements]

This has got to be one of the biggest thread drifts of all times!

Back to the topic......I know RAAFies are not encouraged to post on the 'prune, but I'm sure there is some interesting news and/or reactions. Feel free to PM me if you want :ok:

How about we all take a step back. If people want to bag ATC/aircrew/management/whatever, start another thread (or get a room:E)

Cheers,

NFR.

[Track Coastal]

Have I missed something Chicken Lips? If you want to spend thirty years talking to aeroplanes you go civ, if you want to be a manager you stay blue (8 - 10 years on the radio and thats it). Simply because as a line ATC in the civ world you are left alone and get paid in excess of a WGCDR (as you should).

I just went to a retirement party where a guy had 36 years on the air. I reckon Binoculars would have 30+ years of seperating and sequencing. You choose that path, as I have. I have no interest in rising above FPC, I like the job. If you choose that path in the RAAF you are frowned upon (eg the 15 year Flight Lieutenant jokes).

Whisk writes a good post. No-one thinks that the RAAFies are stupid or untalented but as Funk says, if your 'corporate knowledge' senior controller in the room has less than 18 months in the unit, what do you expect? We all came from there, and anyways I reckon you should always remember your "roots". :E;)

When we were 'Base Squadrons' our core job was moving aeroplanes at the base. Then we went mother 'wing' and 'tactical' and our core skills went out the window, [y]our core job became getting deployed.

I remember the 'Willy Whips' comments from 13+ years ago - well the Willy execs have all resigned...ship, rudder, heloooo.

44WG (41WG before) has sewn this problem and they can reap it.

Any care to comment on the host of ESOs that went to units on promotion and couldn't get rated (some were 'golden' and had a constant beam pointing at the floor from their sphincter ani on the tip of their spinal column - from their 'tactical ATC' superiority)?

PS DN in the 90s moved well excess of 110,000 moves pa (I remember a 120). The issue with replacing 2 PA31s and 2 C210s with one E120 on the same route is no potential sep loss between the daisy chain of 4 from TN or Maningrida. Easier on the licence.

PPS So how does providing an ATC service (sometimes a Flight Info Service) in a JAO (a far flung ****hole) with the USA (whom have dedicated units awaiting and trained to do such) help or develop our core ATC skills? You reap what you sew.

[Track Coastal]

...and Chicken Lips, you were a damn good operator and LIKED moving aeroplanes, you should have come over (and maybe you still can).

[C-change]

Some of you people out there are absolute tossers. Get over yourselves. The thread was about the same old story. RAAF can't keep their people because they treat them like crap, stuff their families around and flog them until they have had enough. Some of you bitch and complain about them, yet do nothing except whinge, whilst these kids in Blue are prepared to put their life on the line so you can stay at home and bitch about them. Tosser's, you know who you are.

Every couple of years ASA comes along, after yet another failed attempt at a national ATC plan, offering heaps of extra dollars and people leave the RAAF. Thats life, its called supply and demand. No different to Virgin, Qantas etc recruiting from REX or other regionals. RAAF tries to train more with their crap budgets and as soon as ASA crap on their people, who subsequently head OS, RAAF loses more staff. Its nothing more than a big merry go round, except this time the merry go round is broken. ASA and RAAF can't attract enough new kids to the job because they get treated like crap and aren't interested in this sort of career anymore. BS on forums attacking people doesn't help. Most of those Blue ATC's have buggar all time up. Get off their backs, remember when you learn't to fly or the first time you had to vector several acft. :=

Here is some history for you.

In 2003, ASA and defence came up with the Intergrated Operating Concept (IOC) at great expense to ASA. They spent heaps on it and defence eventually rejected it, due cost to the tax payers. ASA said gloves off and recruited 14 RAAF ATC's. Back to the drawing board again.

2005 and project Genesis dawns and a new era for Aust. ATC begins. Pearce App from Perth TMA using Taaats and the relocation of DN and TVL approach etc to Brisbane centre again using Taaats (I can feel maestro and TMP's coming on). What happens, it all turns to **** and Defence pulls the plug again because ASA wants to charge Defence millions to provide the service. I say Defence because RAAF ATC got told what to do by the government. By the way RAAF ATC is actually controlled by RAAF PILOTS. Another point, The Manual of Air Traffic Services MATS, is a joint document and again signed off by another RAAF PILOT. The ATC's at the coalface are applying rules approved by pilots.

What I find funny is that both department of defence and transport are owned by the same government but a national ATC plan can't get sorted out. After all, we are only talking about 1200 ATC's around the country but it all seems to hard.

Whisk01 mentioned "mutual respect". When was the last time you went to visit an ATC section aircrew or when did you ATC's go flying ? Learn what each other does and show some respect. Share your knowledge. Remember that someone taught you, what you know. Don't moan and bitch about how bad it is, write to your federal members, what about AOPA. Do something positive.

If you choose to keep on whining and do nothing, you better get used to TIBA and CTAF boys (and girls) because soon there wont be anyone on the other end of those radios.

[Track Coastal]

C-change... nice work.

I hear there is a new GPCAT in Mr B but, I fear the horse may have bolted

Having said that shouldn't virgindriver, RENURPPand Capt Grumpy expect a quality service?

[RAAFASA]

Well written, Whisk (who would never blow his own trumpet but is an extremely gifted, as well as hard working, controller).

Should pilots expect a quality service? Absolutely. And if there were more communication between pilots and ATC about any issues that arise (rather than pointless, vague whinging) then no doubt the service would continually evolve.

ATC is not a job where you unplug one day and say "well, that's it, I'm now perfect". There is always room for improvement, always another way to "skin the cat" and most of us drive home replaying sequences and wondering what we could have done differently to achieve a better outcome all round.

Not all RAAFies stay blue because they want to end up driving a desk. Some of us are happy to stay line controllers because we like talking to aircraft! And having tried the grass on the other side of the fence - some of us prefer the RAAF as an employer (hard to believe, I know). For me ASA has only 2 advantages over the RAAF - location stability and the fact that they pay you for the $hit they make you do - O/T, prof development, shiftwork etc (a Darwin ATCO working 24/7 gets paid the same as a Sale ATCO working basically office hours - and they even took ERL of us for a while in the mid-naughties!).

There comes a time when those 2 advantages (particularly the location stability) become increasingly important (kids at school, parents ageing, sick of unpacking boxes etc) to most RAAFies and so when ASA dangle a nice carrot (like the current offers) there is a huge rush to jump ship.

Why do we persist with RAAF control at Darwin and Townsville - 1stly because ASA don't want them - not enough profit apparently. 2ndly because they are fantastic training grounds (even if we do lose 2 out of every 3 controllers eventually to ASA) and are part of the reason Aussie military ATCOs are held in such high regard overseas.

Project Genesis would have greatly improved both the service provided and RAAF retention by addressing the location aspect - I'd be happy to do Darwin APP from Brissie till retirement - as would most of our workforce - Brisbane being the most desired location (closely followed by Willy apparently).

As to the current ASA-RAAF poaching. I've heard the same figures (17 that I know by name). Don't know how many have accepted, but the offer was good enough to make me visit the ASA application page myself (never say never....) so I imagine most, if not all, will take it (be mad not to really).

The Willy execs are not part of the ASA recruitment from what I've heard (although I believe the acting OC is taking up an ASA job - not line controlling).

44WG HQ have not yet reacted - I guess they're waiting for actual resignations to hit their desks before assessing the damage. Bit disappointing really as it would be nice to know what the plan is? They know that we know and all that - rumour mill being what it is - so why not put something out there to reassure those of us who are staying behind to switch off the lights? (Everyone click your heels together and wish "Genesis, Genesis, Genesis").

Maybe this will be the catalyst for moving to a single ATS provider model (although we though that in 94 as well.....):hmm:

[RektlSfinkta]

Maybe this will be the catalyst for moving to a single ATS provider model (although we though that in 94 as well.....)


I doubt it. Project Genesis fell apart due to financial and "operational" reasons. It's unlikely that Defence will bother trying this again any time in the near future. Seems ludicrous since both AsA and Defence ATC are all employed by the same federal govt, albeit from different buckets of money.

Then again, with a new federal govt (voted in after Genesis called off) anything's possible!

[RektlSfinkta]

Also curious to know what & where the offers have been.

[BurglarsDog]

Offers:

Brisbane 5
Melbourne 11
Sydney 1

DogGone:ok:

[C-change]

I know the Syd spot is for TWR but are those other numbers for TMA/TWR or enroute?
Only a rumour but I did hear on the grape vine there was a suggestion of running a short en-route course for 16 in Sep. Timings look about right considering Blue suites must give 90 days notice.

Track Coastal,

Having said that shouldn't virgindriver, RENURPPand Capt Grumpy expect a quality service?
You bet, couldn't agree more but the service will not improve when people have a shot at the indiviuals trying their best. Take it up with management or go higher.

For the aviators;
Where I work, we have lost three staff in the last year, that haven't been replaced. Their combined global ATC experience was 68yrs. We now run limited hrs and we hate going CTAF when our customers are still flying but if we go overtime and there is an incident or worse, guess where we go.

I think some of the aviators out there need to understand the average time in the seat for RAAF staff these days is approx 3-4 years, some bases are less.

If it was an airline it would run something like this.

Pilot gains PPL on PA28's and does commerical in nine months.
Next six months spent on SF34's and clock up 100-200hrs IF.
Then jump into the left set, check out as CAPT and start teaching next lot of FO's.
3-4 yrs later RPT guys are offering the big bucks to jump ship as their own RPT staff are headed OS to earn even bigger bucks.

Problem is back at the SF34 stage were inexperience is teaching the new staff and it goes on and on and we end up in the postion where in now.

If the aviators want things to improve, then get on our side and put pressure on the Pollies, management of ASA and Defence. They will only change if the are forced to.
There is nothing to stop us from having a national ATC system. Only then will it stop the drain and allow some experience to stay in one place for a while. It will eventually lead to a better service.

PS, someone asked why DN and TVL stay Military. Its where the war will be fought from if it ever happens. If DN falls to the bad guys, you pull back to Tindal. Next time you land at TVL and roll to the end of RWY 01, have a look at the massive OLA complex off to the left. Defence won't ever let them go.

[Pera]

Renurpp,

ATSB wouldn't investigate a level bust. What a waste of resources. An ESIR or ASOR should have been raised and ATSB should have been notified, but it's not going to make it to their website.

For the record, I have no idea if the 'alleged' level busts took place.

Pera.

[Delay Approved]

At the risk of this thread drifting even further I think RENURPP is in need of some education regarding the incident reporting system.

<DRIFT>
Military ATC don't submit ASIRs to the ATSB, instead they internally submit an ASOR (Aviation Safety Occurrence Report) which is the equivalent of an AsA ESIR.

In the event of a minor incident consistent with the description of an ATSB category 5 event (like a level bust where there is no confliction with other traffic or loss of separation) there will not be any investigation of the incident by either the Military or ATSB and accordingly there will not be an investigation report. The event will be recorded in the database for statistical purposes only.

In such events you should be informed of the incident at the time on the radio or preferably given the old 'please contact approach on landing', however this unfortunately doesn't always happen particularly if the controller is busy at the time.

I can't comment whether or not the level busts occurred because I don't know, but i can assure you that there would be no ASIR, nor would one be required, there would be no investigation report and you certainly won't find anything on the ATSB website - that doesn't mean that it didn't happen and doesn't mean that they weren't reported.

I apologise for further drifting this thread.
</DRIFT>

Back on topic - I wonder how long it will be before we see another retention benefit being offered. I know I would sign on for another year if I were offered a deal similar to that recently offered to pilots - but I'm not holding my breath.

[Track Coastal]

This is one of the most 'contructive' threads dealing with the RAAF ATCs 'problems' I've seen. A lot of good stuff looking at the 'why' and 'how' as opposed to the 'what' [happened the last time I was stuffed around].

Great post C-change. Question...why can't Airservices staff those bases even if they stay military assets? The navaids are Airservices maintained so why not the voices on the radio?

As an example RAF Gibraltar is run by NATS ATC (Britain's ASA equiv). Numerous RAF bases in Britain have civvy controllers and Skyguide staffs the Swiss bases.

[RENURPP]

Delay Approved,

You are correct, i am not fully aware of the requirements for ATC reporting of occurrences.


1) Are you able to suggest which document covers when ATC reports are required and how, and who they are submitted to.

2) I am certainly not aware of any "level busts"through any form of contact. I suspect it is rubbish.

I am happy with a PM if you like.

[scran]

Track Coastal;

Is you question re ASA staffing the bases one of legality as against staff availability?

I doubt there is any legal impediement to ASA staffing them (forget the old Civilian in a war zone argument that was raised years ago...), but I wonder if ASA have the staff capacity to do so (given the supposed shortage that ASA also have).

Was it you who made the comment about going downhill after the "tactical focus" was generated by 41/44Wg? Love it :ok:

[Track Coastal]

Was it you who made the comment about going downhill after the "tactical focus" was generated by 41/44Wg? Love it :ok:
Yes, but alas I'm not Dr Wernher von Braun reincarnated. It was pretty darn obvious that the core skills of separating in a safe, orderly and expeditious manner were going to get a back seat.

but I wonder if ASA have the staff capacity to do so (given the supposed shortage that ASA also have).
If we closed SATC (two ATC schools operate currently - duplication); All went to TAAATS (two ATC systems - duplication of support staff and compatibility); and, moved Darwin, Tindal, Townsville and Willy APP to BN centre, and Nowra and East Sale to ML Centre (as civs all and sundry) it may be viable and the staff continuity and stability will pay off in a few years (think of the supervisor duplication at all those units).

Question scran...when you got promoted in the early 90s how many WGCDR slots were there (and there was 1 GPCAPT) then? How many WGCDRs and GPCAPTs now (post 44/41WG and 'going green')?

[Quokka]

forget the old Civilian in a war zone argument that was raised years ago...

Always was a nefarious argument. Nothing precludes the controllers involved from being employed as Defence Civilians, therefore, no legal impediment. Throughout military history, civilians have been employed in specialist positions and deployed to combat areas whilst performing their duties as civilian specialists. This is nothing new to Armed Conflict.

However, I would find some comfort if the selection of such individuals were made by the ADF and not by Airservices Australia, having seen some disturbing breaches of security on VHF frequencies by civilian controllers with somewhat arrogant and gleefull disregard for the consequences to Defence personnel. The same controllers who treat their own colleagues with previous Defence employment somewhat differently to those without a history of employment in the ADF.

An e-mail to an Airservices Line Manager, written in appropriate business language with a short explanation of OPSEC and a very polite request was met with the response... "we don't have to comply with OPSEC".

[scran]

Question scran...when you got promoted in the early 90s how many WGCDR slots were there (and there was 1 GPCAPT) then? How many WGCDRs and GPCAPTs now (post 44/41WG and 'going green')?




Well, for "ATC" WGCDR positions (CE positions that had to be a ATC officer) I think it was 4 - COSATC, HQ Air Command (the old CATCO position), DD-ATS in Russell (Deputy Director within AFHQ) and the DD-Airspace Design/Defence Liaison Officer position at ASA in Canberra.

Mind you, Myself and Shartz promoted the same year (1995 promotion list) made it about 6 or 7 wearing the rank as against the 4 CE positions. Now, 41WG (as we were part of then) stood up around 1994 or so didn't it (I am 1 of only 2 ATC's that I know who NEVER served in either 41 or 44WG)? Part of the transition was creating the WGCDR Position at Willy, but there was a 2 year or so retention of the HQAC slot for some reason. Anyway - there was NO GPCAPT position for ATC (it was a general list position - OC41WG) with the first OC41WG being an Air Defence Officer, then we had two or three pilots (including the recently departed DCAF) as the OC - it wasn't till 44WG stood up that there was any "slot" for an ATC GPCAPT (and then I assume it would be in competition - if no-one was considered suitable for promotion they would have used a NAV or PLT to fill it) - around 1998/99 or so I think.

The other part, lets see - its about 1 GPCAPT & 7 WGCDR isn't it?

GPCAPT - OC 44WG

WGCDR - COSATC, XO 44, SATCO DAR, SATCO TVL, DD-ATS, DD-ATM/JCAM1 and uummm....



Remember - I ain't spoke to a live aircraft since I finished at SATCO PEA 1992........

[C-change]

PPruner, can't shed any light on your actual arrival mate as I have never worked in DN and never wanted to either. Sorry you probably like it up Nth but its too bloody hot.

I cannot recall having these issues in an AsA controlled airport ever. It is certainly not the first time in Darwin that I have been flying a route contrary to the ATCers understanding. i.e. issued a clearance by one organisation and the other not being aware.


This sort of statement comes up every so often and its a direct result of staff stability. In ASA, some controllers have been at the same group for 15 + yrs. They almost invented the wheel at some of these groups. You can't buy that sort of experience it takes time.
The RAAFies have other ADF responsibilites on top of ATC and are required to constantly move around the country. When you get, at best, 3 yrs in a location it makes it bloody hard to obtain and keep that "corporate knowledge". I prefer to call it experience.
Your correct,the SATCO can't do a lot about overall stability, they're the local management not CDF but still call them about the above arrival. They can play back the tapes and all may learn something from it.
Please remember that person may have pulled several doggos, missed out on leave for the last few months, been thrown in the deep end etc.

You need to take things higher to the pollies if you want real change.

Track Coastal

Question...why can't Airservices staff those bases even if they stay military assets? The navaids are Airservices maintained so why not the voices on the radio?


Other than staff numbers, different ATC computer systems, security clearances, nothing at all. All of these dramas can be overcome. Defence has APS working in every area of Defence including ATC. What stops it from happening is a failure of both organisations to recognise each others ATC Qual's, (happening very slowly) and people not wanting to let go of their power. Some have built career's out of the current structure.
This type of agreement was attempted with project Genesis but failed for a whole number of reasons, one being, the current APS staff at the southern bases could not be garunteed from being made redundant if ASA was to take over, how silly is that. ASA wanted to pick and choose who they wanted.
It will only ever change from the current system if it is directed from the ministers.

I personally don't think it will ever happen which is a shame. With a bit of lateral thinking everyones aims could be acheived, staff could stay put and gain some experience and the end users would get a better service.

But the way fuel prices are heading, we could all be looking for other jobs soon anyway.

[celeritas]

Truly the demise of RAAF ATC was the thinking that everyone in the category had to be tactically focused. They would have been better off having a small cadre of Tactical ATC (based out of TN and Willy); and the rest should have been defence civilians/AsA employees.
I pity the coalface guys and gals still there (RAAF) as it seems that little has changed.
Scran, surely your no still stomping aroung the halls @ Russell!? Wasn't there also the WGCDR position @ Training Command back in the early 90's?

[scran]

Celeritas:

You may be correct about the early 90's - there was probably a CATCO Training Command position.

No -I'm not stomping around the halls of Russell!! :=

I left Russell end of 2003 fro a two year posting to Sydney (Potts Point) then in Feb 2006 postd to a position in Strategy Group :ugh:.

Resigned Easter 2007 and now work for the Federal Police. :ok: :ok:

[goaround121]

virgindriver
RE your issues:
1. use correct phraseology, especially the sequence of instructions – No excuse, many controllers in training, RAAF has a posting cycle whereby once personnel become proficient they get moved on to another location or discharge for the greener pastures of AsA. RAAF controllers also have to be multi-rated in TWR and APR and don’t get the ability to consolidate.

2. not giving us more than 3 instructions at once – where is that written down that you are only to issue no more than 3 instructions at once, come on there are two of you up front.

3. ILS operational but can't descend below 2000 till 6 DME? Still haven't found that NOTAM – you have this procedure mixed up, the not below A020 till 6 DME is to keep you clear of R768A SFC-A020 H24 (check ERSA) on a visual approache and not to do with the ILS.

[virgindriver]

3. ILS operational but can't descend below 2000 till 6 DME? Still haven't found that NOTAM – you have this procedure mixed up, the not below A020 till 6 DME is to keep you clear of R768A SFC-A020 H24 (check ERSA) on a visual approache and not to do with the ILS.

Not when you are tracking via the LLZ... I think that was a stuff up by ATC on the day. Even my ex miltiary offsider said so.

2. not giving us more than 3 instructions at once – where is that written down that you are only to issue no more than 3 instructions at once, come on there are two of you up front.

Easy on the ground but not so when on approach in the air. Not written anywhere but up to 3 are the norm before it gets error prone. Any more than that and 2 sets of instructions are the norm. EG you get a star clearance (which you get warning for) and after you have read that back then you typically get "and for sequencing..."

It's different when you are sitting on the ground with pen and paper ready compared to juggling that with a/c operations airborne. I realise TL is probably a training base for ATC and not many there would have actual flight time to see both sides, C152 aside.

Perhaps Grumpy would like to add something else constructive?

[max1]

Agree with virgindriver, as an ATC, I try not to overload pilots with multiple instructions at critical phases of flight.
You learn that all you end up doing is having to repeat yourself and add to your workload.Especially those from a non-english speaking background.
Oh for the good old days when we used to put trainees on famil flights.

[C-change]

Virgin Driver, sorry, bit unsure what your arrival was and just trying to clarify, hope I'm not sounding too picky but were you on a VSA tracking via the LLZ, or were you conducting a LLZ approach?

Also its been a while since I worked there but does the 9nm final for VSA and Satco for ILS still happen ? I always thought that for consistency why not track all to Satco. Your thoughts ?

Also, part of the problem with multiple ATC instructions comes from lack of understanding on behalf of ATC's. There is very little, to almost no flying experience amongst ATC and a lot of the Training Officers out there do not understand the work load on arrival or on ILS etc. This unfortuneately gets passed onto trainee's.

Was involved in a very good "love in" as it was called with the F111 crews a few years back at AMB. ATC went to sqn and walked through brief, mission plan, pre flight and watched HUD tape of the sortie. Very informative day esp cockpit workload. Did the reverse and cranked up the ATC Approach sim and let the Knuks vector a sequence with all the internal coord etc.

Great day had by all, pity it can't happen more often.

[Capt.Grumpy]

Perhaps Grumpy would like to add something else constructive?

Sorry about the delay but have been away on 4 day trip.
Unfortunately I don't diary the litany of TL "incompetence" but will try to pluck some out of the air. My company flies into TL at least six times a week and has done this for at least the last twenty years or so (I have been flying into it for the fifteen years I have been with the company).
The latest was about 10 days ago. In the morning from start of taxi until line up 23 mins. That same afternoon from taxi until line up 27 mins. Come on fellas, not good enough. No more than 3 arrivals both times. Put TCAS onto max range to see what was coming and bugger all.
Routinely held at holding point Alpha one (called ready) while an aircraft on approx 8-9 mile final is then cleared to land. TCAS shows nothing to the east in the direction of departure.
We don't have the problems at Cairns, Mackay, Rockhampton or Brisbane that we regularly have at Townsville. All the other blokes in my company are of the same opinion as myself. I have canvassed the opinions of mates with Virgin and Sunnies and they all agree, Townsville is not good.
Last year enroute from Mackay to Townsville we were cleared to 7000' (VFR conditions). We were told that traffic was another aircraft on a reciprocal track at 6000'. Sure enough the TCAS confirmed this. The other aircraft traced down the TCAS screen towards us. There was no other aircraft within a 15 mile radius of us. The other pilot remarked at the time "fcuk, don't these clowns know what a vector is". Consequently we ended up over the top of the airfield at 7000' and had to do a spiral descent onto 01 . Fcuking pathetic.
These are but a few instances that I can think of off the top of my head but there are many more. When a few years ago it was announced that TL controllers were going to Iraq to train the controllers at Baghdad airport, this created much mirth at my workplace about the poor bloody Iraqi's. This turned to some dread when we realized that it probably meant the B team was being left in charge at TL.
I'm sure the guys at TL are wonderful blokes, kind to their mothers and like cats and small dogs, it's just as ATCO's they're not real good.

ps, just remembered , on the odd occasion Caribou, C130 and B350 crews transit through our base at Cairns. One of the blokes I work with asked a Caribou crew what they thought of TL ATC and if they were stuffed around like the rest of us. The answer and I quote "they're ****" :uhoh:

[virgindriver]

Hi C-Change. 9 mile finals still happen in TL. Any track shortening is good as far as I am concerned.

TL ATC- they are far from incompetent but there are better. I never have any hassles with CBR ATC.

I am far from perfect myself but since some suggestions were sought on TL ATC I offered my thoughts, however nit picky they may be. I know others share my views.

[goaround121]

Capt Grumpy, one clarification the RAAF did send controllers to Iraq, not just from TL but RAAF ATC wide.

As for track shortening, all arrivals for 01 are now tracked to SATCO as a TMP, the 9NM final is rarely used, you could always ask for it if visual approach is on the ATIS unless the cloud near final may lead to you calling visual late.

All bases train, the sausage factory is continually pumping them out, once they get proficient it’s time to move them on. Also clogging up the sky are Caribou, SF34 and SW4, Army helicopters and local lighties all training as well which might add to your delays. TL is not a capital city so the priorities are a little different.

Late last year how they treated runway 01 and 07 changed because of an incident, they now have to be treated as crossing runways.

virgindriver, were you held up because of EMQ helicopter into the hospital?

[Track Coastal]

they treated runway 01 and 07 changed because of an incident, they now have to be treated as crossing runways.

Good work on the explanations. Care to explain the above...Runways cross or they don't.

[virgindriver]

Cleared for a visual approach via a 9 nm final and the LLZ. Only other traffic was a PC9 some distance behind us. No helicopter traffic. More than adequate separation from PRD areas on the terminal chart. Restriction on decent below 2,000 till 6 DME. Asked why and was told "it's in the Notams".

[Hempy]

Asked why and was told "it's in the Notams"

All you have really told us is that you don't read Notams..

[Track Coastal]

All you have really told us is that you don't read Notams..
Thats a bit harsh.

[Hempy]

really? The last thing a busy ATC needs is to be explaining procedures to pilots over A/G when the information has already been disseminated, it's not like Notams are hard to find.

[virgindriver]

Ahhh, that's better. Another one to my ignore list. Aircraft was feeling lonely. :}

[Track Coastal]

Last year enroute from Mackay to Townsville we were cleared to 7000' (VFR conditions). We were told that traffic was another aircraft on a reciprocal track at 6000'. Sure enough the TCAS confirmed this. The other aircraft traced down the TCAS screen towards us. There was no other aircraft within a 15 mile radius of us. The other pilot remarked at the time "fcuk, don't these clowns know what a vector is". Consequently we ended up over the top of the airfield at 7000' and had to do a spiral descent onto 01
...I remember your rant on that when it happened. You get what you pay for.

[RAAFASA]

TC - they treated runway 01 and 07 changed because of an incident, they now have to be treated as crossing runways.
Good work on the explanations. Care to explain the above...Runways cross or they don't.The flight strips of 01 and 07 cross, the actual marked runway 07 (the short one, used by BE20s and below from memory) stops just short of 01. The type of acft using 07 were able to land and hold short of 01 until cleared to cross.

As I've said before, I haven't worked TVL since the mid 90s, but back then we were able to use 01 and 07 concurrently without requiring actual LAHSO agreements. Made things easier for sequencing, but you always had to be mindful that a go 'round on 07 could conflict with 01 if the acft was unable to turn early enough. Sounds like this may have occured - hence the change on ops?

Virgin Driver, your specific comments/questions were appreciated, I passed them on to a mate in TL and I see "Goaround121" addressed them yesterday.

As to the "no more than 3 instructions", I confess I gained a newfound respect for cockpit workload during various "famil" flights (F18, DH4, S70, C130 plus C208, C152, B737, B777 and A330 - civvie rides being much easier to get pre- 9/11 of course, but the nice boys at Virgin let me in the jumpseat in 2005 into DN in a thunder storm - very impressive!)

All of the civvie flights and all but the C130 ride were done in my own time (pre-9/11 whenever I flew anywhere, I would always show my ID and ask to talk to the crew during the flight - usually ended up with an invite to stay in the jumpseat for landing, which was always interesting and took the opportunity to discuss local procedures - the DN TMP provided fodder for many a holiday flight!)

Anyway, I tend to structure the detail of my instructions depending on the cockpit (eg - multicrew vs single pilot, IFR vs VFR, local operator vs visiting lightie pilot from the bush) and stage of flight. For instance, to a multicrew acft on vectors for ILS, I have no problem issuing:

"ABC turn right heading xxx to intercept the LLZ, descend to A030 cleared ILS 01 report established" (which is technically 4 - heading, descent, cleared for final and report) because all of this is what you are expecting to hear, so shouldn't pose a problem.

To a student I would separate the instructions (intercept and report, descend and cleared) or to an acft subject to abnormal ops, visiting acft etc.

Please let me know if you disagree with this. Otherwise, I train my trainees to consider cockpit workload (ie give freq change instructions with take off clearance if possible, rather than when first airborne, or at least wait until the acft is clean; provide a "pause" if changing the acft's app intentions and do so as early as possible to give them time to find the new plate and brief appropriately (eg. ILS NA, expect TAC arrival via xxxxx)

One advantage that RAAF ATC may have is that many of our guys scrubbed out of pilots' course (some very late in the training - I know one guy who was 2 weeks off grad when he pulled the pin) before entering the glorious world of ATC. While their experience flying PC9s may not equate to driving an airbus, in all the cases I know, they show not only an awareness of what's going on in the cockpit, but also an interest in aviation generally (me, I don't read Aviation Weekly in my spare time);)

[Capt.Grumpy]

One advantage that RAAF ATC may have is that many of our guys scrubbed out of pilots' course (some very late in the training - I know one guy who was 2 weeks off grad when he pulled the pin) before entering the glorious world of ATC. While their experience flying PC9s may not equate to driving an airbus, in all the cases I know, they show not only an awareness of what's going on in the cockpit,

hmmmmm...........I don't seem to have struck any of these people in TL. They must be on rest days when I pass through. :hmm:

[Track Coastal]

You get what you pay for.
BTW my comment above was tongue-in-cheek based on Air Nav charges to land...
(Per Tonne >5700kg) CS $10.95; MK and RK $12.69; TL $2.94

Doc here: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/avcharge/price/contract2006/std2006_3_july.pdf

don't shoot the messenger

[Hempy]

Darwin $2.26. By that logic Darwin is the dodgiest place in Aus

[scran]

This thread is starting to de-generate.

Well done Grumpy - you must be the ONLY pilot ever to not f**k up.....................:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Capt.Grumpy]

Well done Grumpy - you must be the ONLY pilot ever to not f**k up.....

So you do know me ..............:} :) :p


We all fcuk up on occasion , it's just that I try really hard not to do it consistently :=

[C-change]

To the pilots that have engaged in a positive way, thanks.

Capt. Grumpy, you need an enema. You seem to be so pissed off at the world and all things Military ATC that you are incapable of reading other posts on this thread. I am not attempting to justify the service you receive, just trying to shed some light on why the RAAF are so inexperienced but you don't seem to get it. Other than complain on forums such as these, what have you done to improve the knowledge of the TL ATC's or others ? Have you written to your management, Dept of Defence or your Federal MP ? Have you been over to TL ATC at all? Organised for an ATC famil in a jump seat or is it your intention to pass on your crap attitude to other crew members that you fly and associate with ?

All the other blokes in my company are of the same opinion as myself. I have canvassed the opinions of mates with Virgin and Sunnies and they all agree, Townsville is not good. The other pilot remarked at the time "fcuk, don't these clowns know what a vector is". Fcuking pathetic.


ATC can also quote many examples of Pilot F&%$ ups if thats where you want the thread to go.

If your fishin for a bite, you got me HL & S. This one really pissed me off.

When a few years ago it was announced that TL controllers were going to Iraq to train the controllers at Baghdad airport, this created much mirth at my workplace about the poor bloody Iraqi's. This turned to some dread when we realized that it probably meant the B team was being left in charge at TL.



You are a dead set ******. The people that went OS came from all bases around Aust. and rotated fairly regularly. They did there job whilst being shot at, mortared and putting up with all kinds of crap without complaining. I'm wondering if the DHL 767 that took a SAM to the port wing agrees with you.
Those that stayed at home (tell us how you really feel) kept things going without any change to ERSA hrs, NO CTAF/MBZ or TIBA and did all kinds of extra crap as well as helping out the families of those deployed. http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon13.gif
Some of those controllers left the RAAF after Iraq and now work at some of the places you have previously mentioned.

But you wouldn't understand this at your nice little base in cairns ! Coffee perhaps to hot, whingy kid in the back, you poor thing, maybe its the humidity.

I don't like flying with grumpy pissed pilots up front so can you tell us who you fly for, that way, I can utilise Queensland Rail next time I head into TL.;)

[Capt.Grumpy]

I can utilise Queensland Rail next time I head into TL

The tilt train is quite a nice way to travel :p

[rvjk]

Ok - more than once have I had to ring up a pilot and apologise for something that ATC did/didn't do. If something didn't happen they way you want it to, stop whinging and pick up the phone and speak to the supervisor. I don't know just how busy you are after a flight, what with debriefing and bars to get to, but surely you can have a reasonable discussion on a phone. If you aren't happy with the supervisor, ring the Flight Commander or SATCO. For those that can't be bothered doing that, submit paperwork to your management and they will chase it up for you. Personally I think that in most instances that is the pissy way to do it, but its up to you. If you really want to find out whats going on, instead of racing to the hotel, go and visit the section.

Rant over

[fangorboy]

Capt Grumpy

Mate... you need to get yourself a visit up to the TWR at Townsville and speak to the contollers first hand and let them know what "problems" you have with their controlling.

After that get yourself a invite to the Officers Mess Bar and chill out with few glasses of wine and really get down to the nitty gritty - I know you would enjoy it..

[C-change]

Heard this week the number of RAAF ATC resignations is now 26. Most to ASA, some just fed up and moving on to another career.

Anymore news out there ?

[flightfocus]

Fed up and moving to Lipservices Australia???? :eek:

I am afraid that they will be wishing to be back in the Blue suit before the 1st week is out. Morale is at an all time low in ASA right now. TFN and his sycophants could not manage their way out a wet paper bag.

Tragic :ugh: :{

[C-change]

I'm hearing you flight focus, I lasted 12 mths. One common factor I did notice about both orgs is that ATC's generally make really, really, crap managers.

I heard on the good old RAAF grapevine that a few of the resignations are utilising their ADFA degrees and heading into other industries.

About 22 heading to ASA, Bn and ML centre as well as Syd twr and App.

Good luck to them all.

Also heard rumours this week the RAAF is trying to quickly raise another retention benefit. Too late me thinks.

BTW I'm going fishing in the morning, just thought I'd throw that in. :ok:

[quadradar]

Sad to hear how the service has seemingly deteriorated in TVL .... I was there for 4 years in early 70's when Aerodrome & PAR were RAAF and all the rest was civvy doing it the old way - procedurally. As a Blue Boy myself I had the greatest of respect at the way the civvies did the Approach job and was amazed that the RAAF would try and take that role on in the first place .... manning & experience levels were a problem even then !

If any of the old guys are still around - Stainless, Beachball, Patto etc. drop me a PM - I'm with Airways now - still on radar with McGoo glasses in Christchurch Centre.

Unless you remember Neptunes flying there you're not in the right generation !!!

Cheers ....:uhoh:

[maxgrad]

Always give the Tower a call with questions/problems/explanations. Done so a number of times and had nothing but good (sometimes hearty) outcomes.

We sometimes stuff it, they sometimes stuff it. The fact is it is a team effort to reach the same goal.

[C-change]

Maxgrad, nice to hear, we need more like you out there. Its not hard is it, just pick up the phone and call. :ok:

I often ring the instructors if there is a drama with a student or something unusual happens, I learn stuff and so do they.

You can sort out heaps at the bar with a few cold ones.

[VH-UFO]

Well if the RAAF were a little more flexible in selecting personnel for ATC, then maybe they wouldnt be in this position.

In 99 i took an out of mustering posting to a RAAF ATC unit as a Flight Data to learn as much as i could, with the view of becoming an Air Traffic Controller.

The education standards at the time stated that 4 year 12 subjects were required, with English being the only compulsory subject.

On advice from a teacher at the college i studied at, decided not to do year 12 maths considering it wasnt a required subject at the time (surprisingly!) and did the 4 year 12 subjects.

After a year and a half at the ATC unit, and with newly acquired year 12 subjects in hand, i applied, only to be told that i didnt have year 12 maths!

I argued the point stating it wasnt a required subject, yet they point blank refused, even after a controller at that unit got on the phone to recruiting and argued with them. It should not have been a reason to at least not let me participate in the testing process.

In fact it still isnt a required subject, but is highly desirable.

And before you say anything, yes with hindsight i should have done year 12 maths, but keep in mind this;

I had done the required 4 year 12 subjects as per requirements, i held a private pilots licence and done a year and a half at an ATC unit learning as much as i could.

Do you think i should have been given the chance at least to test with the above experience and quals?

Now keep in mind that if i had been just ONE rank higher (sergeant) i would have been given an education exemption and allowed to apply with year 11 alone.

How frustrating was it for me to see Sergeants, of which i knew 2 because they came for a visit to the unit, with just year 11 exclaiming they saw it advertised and "thought they would have a crack", only to hear about one of them crashing and burning inside a month, when i had been working towards that goal for 2 years?

I am sitting back and enjoying watching the RAAF suffer, couldnt be more happier.

Am i bitter after almost 10 years, hell yes?!!!!!

[rvjk]

Beachball was controlling until just recently. Still hanging around doing other things though. You didn't really expect him to use a computer though did you?

[Trojan1981]

VH-UFO
The ADF is very inflexible when it comes to these things. I too left the ADF due to transfer troubles and have had no problem acheiving my goals outside. A friend of mine, 28 years old, recently applied for Commando (reserve). He has a BA (not much but still a degree:}) and passed all required fitness and apptitude testing, but they will not accept him until he can produce his year 10 results!

Oh well, their loss:rolleyes:

[bigbrother]

As an Ex-ATCO who was forced to leave the service because of not achieving a pass in Advanced Course (RAdar/Approach), yet having every other ATC qual. on offer, I have no sympathy for the inevitable demise of the category. Run by morons in 44WG unable or unwilling to recognise the value in having quals worthy of retaining, they now have to deal with not having enough controllers to maintain the 44wg empire. Some of the 'smarter' of the bunch have already departed to civvy street, undoubtadly to take their attitudes and predjuces with them. This was evidenced, I believe, by the change to staffing where new controllers were required to rotate around bases, as is the case in the RAAF.

So the loss of experience will continue and as a current Airline Pilot plying the airways around Australia I smile when I think of the continued degradation of a once great category, and of the people responsible (or not responsible as the case may be)

[Chatz]

I've worked for both organisations and they both face the same issues, they are desperately short of qualified controllers but don't want to fess up the reality of situation. I left the RAAF knowing the situation was bad at AsA, but I'd just had enough. Having said that, the mood on the floor in the centres is just as bad, possibly worse than in the RAAF.

What I find interesting is that you hear talk of recruiting campaigns and getting the numbers in the door, but neither organisation has taken a real objective look at the way it trains at the coalface to ensure it is getting the best possible product in the shortest amount of time. When I was in the RAAF (and I make an assumption that its still the same), becoming a training officer was career development and essentially mandatory. So it wasn't about selecting and training suitable candidates who would provide quality instruction. I know that some units simply chose not to use some people in these roles, but others had no choice.

Please note that I am not tainting all with the same brush, I've seen some exceptional training officers in the RAAF; but not everyone is cut out to teach/provide instruction, and some probably don't even have an interest in it.

So perhaps it can be said that the quality of the product you produce is indicative of the time, effort and money you are prepared to resource it with. Of course if you're with AsA, then at least you'll potentially have until the next ice age in the same sector to gain experience to overcome any possible training shortfalls.

:O

[allrounder99]

@ Track Coastal

310 knots and 270kts?
Wow, why don't atc's come up with pearls of wisdom like this? Perhaps you should switch to ATC and earn more money if it's that easy.

Actually, this will not achieve you 5 Nm spacing in the approach environment unless captain courageous is able to put his jet on the runway at 310 kts.