BA BASSA Message - TUPE

[ForwardGalley]

Any BA BASSA members should check their email and BASSA website as soon as possible. URGENT message that needs reading ASAP.

[LHRKrew]

Looks like we may be dusting off the donkey jackets yet AGAIN!!

Any BA cabin crew who have'nt already done so-Please ensure you read the BASSA e-mail as SOON as you can!!

[jamiecurry]

whats the jist of the message / announcement?

[jamiecurry]

do the words sell and off come to mind? anyone know anything at all factual?

[jamiecurry]

keep it in BA? boring! the whole of the world will know by the morning so old news by then. have it your way if you please.

[lovethesky]

it realy is very scary, and IFS have confirmed that this project exists to bassa.
if this goes to plan at ba, then expect every other major airline to follow!!
this could affect all cabin crew, and pilots!!!

[deeceethree]

"As we prepare for the final stage of the movement of crew and services into Terminal 5, in Waterside a specialist group of 5 managers are working on a top-secret project called "Operation Columbus", in partnership with Hewitt Associates, an American outsourcing and corporate restructuring specialist.

This group has been secretly working for a number of months on a potential huge bombshell for the entire cabin crew community.

They are looking at the potential feasibility of setting up a subsidiary operation to "employ" all cabin crew at Heathrow and Gatwick.

In simple terms, the plan is to slash costs in a manner that we have
previously not thought possible by simply ending, over a short period of
time, the current terms, conditions, pay scales and agreements of all
current BA cabin crew.

This will be done by setting up a separate structure to employ cabin crew
specifically on lower cost terms and conditions.

Legally, this new operation cannot resemble current structures, so all
rank and pay scales agreements etcetera, would not be replicated to avoid any potential legal challenge over breach of contract of existing employees.

Routes could then be gradually moved from the current crew operation into
this new organisation. Crew who decline to move will either be bought out
of current contracts or be simply left behind as the work moves. The legal
work on how to do this within current legislation has already been carried
out.


The project covers many detailed areas including:

A fixed hourly rate of pay.

The removal of all current ranks.

The ending of all variable pay premiums - CAT, back-to-back, destination,
long day, one down, early report, DOA and ETP etc.

Set salary rate.

All current agreements ended in favour of a LGW style mixed flying option.


LGW is also considered within this project as even this base's reduced
agreement is considered to be too complex and costly.

This is worrying and extremely frightening news, both to us and to you,
but we feel obligated to make you aware of its existence.

We now have no alternative but to challenge Simon Talling-Smith to issue
an immediate statement regarding our concerns and indeed the concerns of the entire cabin crew community."

[Flower Duet.]

The BASSA website says the following :
Please note: This message should not be copied, circulated or published without express prior agreement with BASSA

[deeceethree]

It wasn't obtained from the BASSA website. Obviously already made its way out and about the web! :eek:

[reflexline]

Surely BA wouldn't try cutting Gatwick pay, it aint much as it is...

[Glamgirl]

I must be psychic...

I figured out a long time ago that management and shareholders wanted to get rid of old contracts and the (for some) obscene amount of money being paid to crew. (Don't shoot me, we all know who I'm talking about)

I just didn't foresee the sub factor.

Someone somewhere else in the www world said it could be a scare tactic to get bassa to the negotiating table (they haven't really played ball lately - either sides).

I just want to point out that I'm not supporting the company if this ridiculous suggestion goes ahead, I'm just not surprised about the company wanting to slash incomes. That said, the manager's incomes must also be slashed - by a huge amount - as some of those people are on ludicrous wages for the job they do.


Gg

[Mr Seatback 2]

It's happened in Australia already...set up a shelf company, employ all new crew on separate terms and conditions, and eventually farm off existing flying to the cheaper of the two.

The fact that the wages are povvo means nothing...they'll get people who'll do it for a year, then replace them.

I remember a time when people would fight each other for a position. Now, it's a race to the bottom in all senses of the phrase.

Batten down the hatches, guys...there's a twister brewing...

[boredcounter]

This happened over 15 years ago in the Merchant Navy. SeaLink employed fully qualified 'temps' to make up Crew numbers 'in the cabin' so to speak.

The 'Tech Crew' was not reduced, supported by agency staff as qualified as perm employees.

I believe the RMT Union fought this tooth and nail and lost.


Still on my first week in training, RMT were there to get my subs..............................................

[HZ123]

Hello from Cranebank the bastion of sense and calm. If you see some of the NE's surely it could not be possible to reduce the wages at entry level any further.
Large wage earners, we are talking about the old hands of which many must surely now be in their 50's at least. The time this hit team from Waterside get their act together the great earners will have retired. Anyway why should you worry there are loaders earning between £50000 - £65000 per annum and remember the management have been sorting that group out for the last 30 years in an effort to get more work for less wages from them. Before we all need to worry to much about this it is more likely that BA will go broke or we get taken over. I spent 5 years at Waterside and saw many of these swat teams go with virtually nil results. Have you ever even met a manager in BA with a great ability?

[Shaka Zulu]

HZ123 You go right ahead and ignore the BA Coup. Interestingly enough the F/C Community has seen this coming for a long long time. Still not happy with us withdrawing from court proceedings re open skies but the fight will have to happen at another time.

With oil going to push 200 dollars a barrel (admittedly it's speculation driving the prices), and BA not able to find any dance partner to share costs with, they will become increasingly desperate/determined to drive cost out of the business.

I predicted this very thing for cabin crew a while ago with the help of OS but not by it's own seperate agency in the UK. Schedule K helps us a little bit as pilots but by now I believe that no agreement is fool proof anymore.
Expect to be shafted and assume the worst.
This is market economics catching up with you......

[Virginia]

Is this the end of the 'bronze' age of flying? (The Golden and Silver age have long gone)

I for one will not be working for £12,000 a year, you could earn more working as a supermarket cashier. No offence to any retail employees but I originally applied to BA seeing it as a good company to work for with decent benefits.

I really think our customers will really suffer who is going to work for a pittance, for an outscourced comapny that isn't British Airways? That in turn will push the airline downwards.

Being really cynical it seems that BA is doomed either way. Will spiralling oil prices and 'green' taxes be the cause of it going bust? Is this the end of aviation industry as we know it? We also have the fact the HM Tax Office is trying to claim more tax off us!

On the other hand HZ123 gives us some more positive news and I keep hearing that the price of oil will stabilise and fall, renewable energy sources will improve, OPEC will increase production, the economy will pick up again (thus is the nature of economies) etc etc etc And this lastest rumour may just be one of many of BA's back up plans. It is not unknown for companies to 'leak' such info on purpose to test the waters...

Who knows what will happen!

[HZ123]

Virginia; Things may get better and in my 30+ years the doom mongers are are ever present with rumours and counter rumours. Many delight in creating alarm and dispondency (bit of a rik with the spelling) within the younger/newer staff community. Before CC need worry too much BA will surely get shot off the ramp / ground handling. Today that is still 10 years away at least.

[Muizenberg]

HZ123,

Unfortunately we have a manager with IFS who has a proven track record of what is being proposed. Look at Qantas 10 years ago, all senior crew had to reapply for the new senior roles of CSM and CSS. A QF mainline contract only available to a few J* or MAM staff based on performance. Now QFCCA...outsourcing to QFCCUK, JetConnect and the base in BKK. He started the ball rolling in what is a divided conquered work force.

Hopefully this will UNITE all BA crew under the BASSA banner...if BA thinks we will take this lying down, they have another thing coming. So much for the new "open and honest relationship" between BA, the unions and most importantly cabin crew!:mad:

How many more gaffs do the current regime have to make before they are ousted??

[OnTheLocaliser]

This outsourcing project has been underway for sometime. HZ123 is correct regarding the big earners coming to their 'natural end' and IFS have calculated a 'sliding scale of CSD's' who fall into this high end earner bracket.

The plan to 'employ' CC was looked at in 1988 but was given up quietly, however, this latest outsourcing project has been going on for a long time before the oil costs rocketed. The 'commuting' will END as CC currently know it. Crews will have to be able to drive/park and REPORT within 90 mins of either LHR or LGW. Allowances are also going to be simply by receipt and not by Bfast / Lunch / Dinner allowances and it is also rumour that 'box payments' will go as well. CC may have to pay for parking at their base as well :eek: .

One of the main reasons for outsourcing has been the constant aggro caused by high levels of sickness. Ascot 2008 has seen some of the highest casual sickness records ever, particulary on Ladies Day. Go figure...:D:rolleyes: If its outsourced the problem of sickness is greatly reduced as the supplier has to provide the crews and shoulder the 'cost' of sickness. In some ways the selfishness of some have impacted on the many.:ouch:

The loss of CC goes beyond the actual crew, the schedulers, planners and trainers will also be effected and so its a ripple effect.

BASSA cannot change it, Crew will be trained up and will be lining up to work for as little as £12,000 because of the percieved glamour.

[marlowe]

For years BA has had a little Airline to try out different types of terms and conditions on its cabin crew, its currently called BA Cityflyer but has gone under various guises in its past. BA Connect , BA Citiexpress to name just two names in the last couple of years, the cabin crew at the moment cant even get Union recognition because the company keep delaying talks and Amicus the union that represented the crew in the past CANT BE BOTHERED to get of there collective asses and put pressure on the company even though the crew have the legal numbers for union recognition ,but Amicus would like you to still pay your union subscription each month for doing nothing . Some of you in mainline will have heard of Cityflyer quite a few of you probably havent i hope you never have to operate under some of the terms and conditions that BA find acceptable for cityflyer crews.

[Virginia]

And if BA is heading down this road no airline is safe as they are bound to follow BA's lead.

I can see the career of cabin crew being reduced to a badly paid sky waitress job. :yuk: Don't Ryanair employ cabin crew through an agency? And we all know what their terms and conditions are. I joined BA as I believe the pay was good (we all need to pay bills) and the terms and conditions were good. The idea of nightstops and trips away also sounded good. I didn't want to go through the cabin with a pay for drinks trolley doing 6 flights a day there and backs without ever actually going anywhere. I would just work in an office if it came down to it.

Our passengers will suffer. On the new pay and conditions at the outsourced company (what will it be called I wonder) they will get poor candidates working for them and whatever is left of the airline will go to the dogs.

The only airline left will be Ryanair :rolleyes: If that even survives the current economic climate.

[OnTheLocaliser]

I think one of the tenders was a company called 'CrewSupply' but that sounds a little like crucify!

Virginia - BA pax already suffer! On LH flts the crew force down the blinds as soon as possible in a bid to get pax to nod off rather than disturb the crew. It's so obvious its embarrasing to watch!

You better start looking for an office job, or perhaps work a till at Tesco's and get back to a touch of reality rather than the spoutings of Compass or Galley FM.

[OnTheLocaliser]

Actually I believe BA will be bought by EK, but they (EK) will baulk at the current Crew and Ramp Agreements. EK have many ex BA Mgmt and they know the pitfalls.

The Lo-Co's will survive, so will BA but the old agreements will have been long gone before anyone can say BA truly survived a recession.

Personally, I don't believe its jealousy, but many people see CC as overpaid and prima-donna sky waitresses (as you put it) but most are excellent at their job and do try and look after the passengers as well as they can. But look at the old 'Raid The Larder' compared to the embarrasment that is called 'Club Kitchen' - good quality snacks have been replaced by desperate offerings that CC even turn their noses up to - the reduction in costs are obvious and cannot be hidden or dressed up without passengers or the 20J's noticing.

[Smell the Coffee]

Ladies and Gentlemen, there is very little hard information at this stage - what we have read so far indicates that various options are being looked at with regards to lowering BA Inflight Service's cost base.

The conditions we, as airline employees, now face are apparently worse than those in the aftermath of 9/11. We really need to bear this in mind before shouting at each other ...

No decisions have been made. No proposals have been made.

I think some people here need to calm down.

[speedmarque]

The anti BA vibe here is very worrying.

Do you think folks at say, Waitrose suffer the same vitriol from Tesco staff?

We all do the same job,

a teapot is a teapot

a cart is a cart

a door is a door

a defib is a defib

a fire is a fire

an evacuation is an evacuation.....

regardless of the uniform, regardless of our terms and conditons we all do the same job so stop the bickering.

YES things are better at BA, apply and try hard at the interview if you want a piece of our pie.

Taking pleasure at others misfortune and potential loss of earnings is the lowest form of envy.

Shame.

[rocketsuit]

well said speedmarque, as a BA employee I would humbly like to appologise for earning a living and having a job, that is so so naughty of me, i must remember, henceforth, I will have to pay my employer for the privilage and the "glamour" of turning up for a duty, oh and whilst I am at it, I really MUST remember to get those blinds down on the flights I operate from now on - jesus, you couldn't make it up.:rolleyes:

[Flower Duet.]

British Airways will not be one of the best Airlines if it was not for us !!

Chins up BA Crew, and let's stand together :ok:

Let's enjoy our weekend and respect each other :)

[merlinxx]

I wonder if anyone has ever calculated the time frame for which segment of an air carrier has the punter 'captive' for longer than Cabin Crew.

The finest marketing tools are your Cabin Crew, the punter can't get up and leave.

So which numpties don't realize this simple fact?

I rest my case.........................

[HZ123]

Agree with much that is writ but as the localiser said the aircraft / product and service are not much better than the majority of US carriers. As also said we have lost the plot either by poor management or by the fact BA has been passed by many other airlines in services and lower costs.



Page 16 Sunday Mail

[Final 3 Greens]

I am reading this thread with interest as a frequent passenger in premium cabins, taking about 100-110 flights per year, the majority in C/J and a few in Y or F.

It astonishes me that some people on this thread believe that BA offers something special in service.

Frankly, your airline is an average experience (from a customer service perspective and I certainly cast no aspersions on the safety related element.)

These days, I tend to buy tickets in this order (when there is a choice on the route)

Long Haul

Emirates (good fares, chauffeur drive, free hotac on long transfers at DXB, accomodation on board ranges from adequate to very good)

Lufthansa (very professional, good seats, good service)

Also rans (e.g. just bought a J class return to South America with Iberia as it was a better deal than BA and I don't regard the extra fare as worth it - e.g. I get pre allocated seat with IB, cannot reserve with BA until -24)


Short haul

Air Malta (my home airline, who are far more helpful and flexible than BA, also don't suffer from will/they won't they strike concerns every year)

Lufthansa (perhaps the most consistently professional airline I use)

easyJet (although my use of loco is limited, I like easy, very professional usually, friendly, good weather diversion policy)

BA ( 5 across seating in Club Europe is a discentive - I want a free seat next to me in short haul aircraft)

Of course you may accept or reject this feedback at your discretion.

[LD12986]

Final 3 Greens - Re: your comments about seating policy. If you take 100-110 flights and mainly in cabins per annum, I would think it would very easy for you to obtain Silver/Gold status (particularly as you are based in mainland Europe where the thresholds are lower than the UK) and you would be able to preselect at the time of booking. I know the seating policy isn't popular, but as a Silver cardholder it gives me a big incentive to fly BA as I have a great choice of seats when I book.

This is also available to pax with equivalent status on other Oneworld carriers, should you prefer another Oneworld programme.

[skywatch77]

I have flown Air Malta Vile airline, Vile cabin crew not a patch on BA. Don't feel very safe either.

[galanjal]

I know that this question will seem naive to those of you who are more clued up in these things. but my question is...what is the point of a contract then? i have a contract to work for ba and signed on for certain terms,conditions and pay. that's what i signed and i fulfill my side of the contract. how can ba change what i have signed up for? and again sorry if this question is hopelessly naive...which sadly i suspect it might be

[LD12986]

galanjal - BA cannot simply transfer your contract of employment to another company with inferior Terms & Conditions. There are well-established The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations (TUPE) that prevent companies from doing that.

[Skylion]

1) There is no proposal currently on the table.
2) Any business which is not constantly looking at its options is negligent both to its shareholders, customers and its staff whose long term security of employment depends on the company being financially successful.
3) Any notion that BA, despite its top of the market terms and conditions, gives the best service is nonsense. It sometimes does and sometimes doesnt. In general it is un-memorable and does not give a reason for the customer to make it their preferred purchase. More are held in by the frequent flyer programme than the level of service in which area it is often out performed by the lower paid likes of Easyjet and FlyBE on domestics and short haul and by the foreign offerings of , notably, Singapore, Cathay, and Emirates and other Gulf carriers. There seems to be little relationship between BA pay and conditions and the happiness of its staff and the level of service they are prepared consistently to give.
4) This scare currently looks like a BASSA recruitment campaign.
5) The priority right now should be to enjoy life as it is, get on with the job and cheerfully provide competition beating service.

[Channex101]

God im about to join BA in Aug, I hope this is all scare tactics which we all know the likes of BASSA, Amicus and Unite all use!
I think im going to have to stop reading these gossips sights lol

[HZ123]

Be in no doubt that the company can TUPE any group they wish. It has already happened to a number of groups within our airline. Nobody bothered when Security, Facilities and Motor Transport were tuped.

[Smell the Coffee]

The priority right now should be to enjoy life as it is, get on with the job and cheerfully provide competition beating service

Fabulous advice ..... :ok:

[EI-CFC]

Indeed - as has been said, most companies do exactly this in times of crisis.

They have to explore different options ranging from minor changes to major re-organisation. It doesn't mean anything will come to pass, but they have to explore it.

It's just pure logic.

[PC767]

11000 of 14000 cabin crew are already with bassa. A significant number are with Amicus (CC89). The amalgamation of these unions under Unite will mean the vast majority of crew are unionised. I don't see this as a recruitment drive.

It's quite serious. The Bassa chairperson has cut short her holiday, left her family behind and is returning to the UK to take the lead.

[Final 3 Greens]

LD12986

You are quite correct that I could easily maintain silver or gold status, but that would mean losing status on either EK or LH, both of whom I prefer to BA.

The way to get me back (and many others I know) is to improve the customer experience and in the interests of fairness that includes the whole London experience.

E.g. the Malta flight arrives at LGW and the transfer to LHR (which I have to pay for above the ticket price) is unreliable (coach on the M25) and expensive.

DXB, FRA and MUN offer a far easier transfer.

[Re-Heat]

One of the main reasons for outsourcing has been the constant aggro caused by high levels of sickness. Ascot 2008 has seen some of the highest casual sickness records ever, particulary on Ladies Day.
Another example of some CC shooting themselves in the foot. Unfortunately this has been ongoing since time immemorial in BA.

[Seat1APlease]

and don't forget Wimbledon fortnight is just starting.


Pimms anyone?

[Re-Heat]

Just to add - people join a company and plan their lives around what they are expecting to earn, and the lifestyle they expect to enjoy.

We all know that times change - that in itself is insufficient excuse for a company to unilaterally change terms and conditions, torpedoing people's expectations of their lifestyles.

However, it is unacceptable for union intransigence to lead the workforce down the garden path, failing to recognise that the workforce must work with the company to improve the offering to customers, in order to maintain the salaries, when operating in a competitive market.

BASSA antics are shameful, particularly when - as it seems in this case - the entire communication to members was based upon rumour and conjecture, with no fact verification whatsoever.

I would not want my union dues based upon such tosh. Particularly when so much of them ultimately end up funding the prats in politics.

[Re-Heat]

Note (http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/emplaw/tupe/tupe.htm)

TUPE does not apply to:


transfers of a contract to provide goods or services where this does not involve the transfer of a business or part of a business
transfers of undertakings situated outside the United Kingdom (although these may be covered by the regulations of other member states).

[Smell the Coffee]

For those interested, the head of Inflight Service (IFS) has just written to all BA crew to make clear that the outsourcing of BA crew is not part of 'Project Columbus'.

[bermudatriangle]

sad to say,but BA staff cannot believe a word that their management spout to them.how many times have they been deceived and lied to ?? far too many to recall.i find it unbelievable that a customer focussed business seems hell bent on it's relentless persuit to totally demoralise ,at every opportunity,the very frontline staff that deliver the product and service to the customer.british airways staff,consistently deliver a superb product to the customer,despite the dismall management failings.just look at the T5 fiasco,those highly paid decision makers,shown to be clueless when it comes to running an operation,leaving the helpless staff to face the flack and try to restore the integrity of the operation.staff costs now pale into insignificance,compared to fuel prices and government imposed security taxes.BA has plenty of critics,many hailing from the long since passed days of nationalisation.in general the employees are loyal,motivated,highly trained individuals,who make a real contribution to the company's success.it's about time the misfits at waterside and the board in general,realised this fact and changed the confrontational management style,that has wrecked the sucess that this company should now be enjoying.get the staff to feel valued and who knows what the future holds.

[galanjal]

absolutely spot on bermudatriangle!!!

[TopBunk]

staff costs now pale into insignificance,compared to fuel prices and government imposed security taxes

Utter tosh! WW has just recently said that fuel costs will exceed staff costs for the first time this year - staff costs are hardly insignificant!

The other point to bear in mind is that while fuel cost rises can be partly offset by hedging in the short term, government taxes are non-negotiable whereas staff costs are something under the control of the company.

It may not be a pleasant prospect and do nothing for staff morale and customer service, but if the prospect is no job then when the company come asking for 10% pay cut across the board + 5000 redundancies due reduced flying programme what will be your answer? The usual BASSA mantra of 'no, no, no' or a more adult discussion?

[bermudatriangle]

top bunk...you confirm my statement that fuel costs now exceed staff costs.hardly a justification for your response.

[SFBdolly]

Oh come on Bermuidariangle...misfits at waterside ! and the board. Yes T5 was a mess. However, some people have paid the price, and things have moved on...

I bet a lot of other airlines would love to have had a bunch of missfits who could bring in a profit 400 million plus. Times are a changing, and we have to change with them, or SINK.
Those missfits are trying very hard, searching every which way possable to make sure there is BA in the future. One only has to take a look across the pond, to see what is happening to airlines and staff.

I think your comments were unkind, and unhelpful.:=

[apaddyinuk]

SFB, Are you for real in your defence of the current BA management????

Indeed I do not think anyone is trying to undermine the current crises facing the aviation industry, infact here in Ireland it has just been announced that we are due to have our first major recession since the 80's however BA's management are perhaps the worst bunch of scoundrels to ever inhabit Waterside.

T5 was simply the icing on the cake, lets not forget the price fixing fiasco, the summer after summer of strikes, the recent showdown with both cabin crew and flight crew, the pensions fiasco etc...and then the little things such as the New Club World mess up, BA038 crew getting bullying treatment after the crash, inability to get employee figures correct etc etc!!! Its just one cock up after another with this company and no one in Waterside seems to be learning their lesson. To blame those two chaps for the whole T5 cockup is an insult. Indeed they were not in control like they should have been but they too had managers reporting to them and those managers seem to have gotten off scot free!!!!

Bermuda is bang on in his/her comments and very eloquently too. Unless you actually are a manager or have not been effected by BA managements poor judgements then I think you would agree!

[TopBunk]

BT
staff costs now pale into insignificance

is the part of your I was discrediting. They can by no means be considered insignificant. Whether or not it is justified I will leave to others to judge:rolleyes:

[SFBdolly]

I am not in a position to "blame" anyone. However, what happend at T5 was not down to any one person/s. Our house has been put in order, cannot comment on any one elses house.

I have to take issue with your use of such emotive language - Scoundrels..= rogues/crooks/villains.. I do not work with such people. But I guess if you really feel this way..then I am sorry. Why would anyone want to work for such a company ?

Your quite right to point out all the things that you feel we've done, wrong....But..the bottom line ...is 400 million.. (profit) Er dirty word..

Best of luck in your new job search .... :)

[aar4n5]

i totally agree with paddyinuk at the moment it seems to be one mistake after another with no one taking the blame. Im based at Gatwick and i have seen one bad decsion after another.

1: Insufficicent recruitment meant not enough staff to crew flights resulting in one crew member down on all flights. Considerable cost to the company as this meant a one light payment for crew and the cost of chartering airlines to operate flights on behalf of BA.

2: the '900 hours rule' how the company couldn't see this coming is laughable, only 2 days off after longhaul trips and the mixed flying meant crew reached there 900hours before the year was up, this resulted in crew being grounded for a month. Rather than give out 20 days off in a month due to high hours would it not make more sense to even this out with 3 days off after all trips. Also the loss of allowances meant many crew had to find jobs elsewhere.

3. The role of Cabin Manager at Gatwick is still undecided with CM's having no pay scale and no idea of how long the role will last.

So you see unless the bad decsions that BA managemnt take do not effect you its hard to know what is really going on in the company.

[BerksFlyer]

SFBdoll,

That profit could have been a hell of a lot more without the price fix scandal. Care to blame anyone other than BA management for that little gem?

[PC767]

Project Columbus isn't a rumour. It has been suggested that the leak came within senior Inflight Service management and was timed when the head of cabin services was out of the country and a new period of stability had been agreed between unions and management. The recent industrial relations settlement was due to be ratified soon. The head of cabin services only days before had taken the heads of the unions out to dinner to discuss and celebrate new trust and cooperation.

Somebody some where doesn't want peace.

Mr Talling Smith, head of cabin services better be watching his back. There is clearly a snake in his grass.

So much for new trust and cooperation. Same old two faced betrayal.

If, and its a big if, such a plan was implemented I would loose more than 10% of my salary. I'll share some facts. I'm on whats known as a new post 1997 contract. This is not the same contract that a few very senior crew are on which allows them higher salaries. 50% plus of my monthly pay is allowance and other variable payments based, often more than 50%. Last year my variable payments totalled (rounded up) £13,000. Replace these payments with a single hourly rate of £2.50 for duty pay and with a maximum allowable duty of 900 hrs per year I'll earn just a variable component of £2250. And if Mr Brown has his way it will all be taxed. A loss of £10750 per annum. The last tax year I took home £25,500. I have a mortgage, kids, car loan and a dog. Clearly the kids will have to go!

My colleagues at LGW already, unfairly, earn less. The company has a right to look at different plans and ideas. I have a right to at least maintain what I earn and like my colleagues will fight to make sure Columbus is not implemented.

[frontcheck]

£25,500 for a part time job,,,,not bad:cool:

[Shaka Zulu]

Definitely not bad for a job that doesn't require any qualifications.
The missus is reading that post with interest. She is doing her marking now after spending the whole day at school and her take home was 20700 last year.
Not bitter and twisted, just saying that some crew do not know what the real world is like.

For info: pre 97 contracters earn a heck of a lot more. spoke to one girl (well lady), she has been 50% for a long time, earns between 1600 to 2000 pound a month working 2 trips a month on average. not bad ey.
its just the real world catching up....

maybe benchmarking yourselves against the other european flag carriers is your only option?

[13 please]

How interesting Shaka Zulu, I've been flying 16 years for BA, and I wouldn't earn that much if I was 50%..And I know that because I did it for a year..If the lady you mention is on longhaul, she's either jobshare (calender month on or calender month off), or she's 28 days on/28 days off, so the period when she is working, she'll be earning 100% for that period.It means she's available to work 50% of a full-time contract, not earning 50% when she IS working..And if she's been with the company for a long time, shouldn't that count for something..??
I'm fully behind teachers, nurses, etc, I think they have a true vocation and a very important job, however, will me earning less make things better for them.?
Our job is more about character and personality, than paper qualifications, I know many people who couldn't do my job, and I couldn't do theirs, not through lack of qualifications. I've done 2 years in the bank, same thing every day, same faces on the tube, you could get up and do Riverdance and nobody would bat en eyelid.! Definitely not for me.. I have friends who freely admit they couldn't do my job, lack of routine, different day every day, different faces every time you come to work, not sure if you're going to make the kids birthdays or not..Please don't try and be insulting by bringing up the lack of qualifications business, it really doesn't come into it....

safe and happy flying to all....

[Shaka Zulu]

Maybe you are missing the crux of my post, ai the Real World catching up to people that shouldn't be doing the job, but are only there to do it because it's a very very nice little earner in their 40's on 50% contracts. Hoovering around the First and Club gallies and not giving a stuffings about the rest of the company (ai Gatwick etc).

And don't worry, I am not being biased, I try to inform myself and when I see cabin crew laugh and say, I can't believe how much I am earning for such easy work then I know that eventually the real world will catch up.

I hope you guys will be okay though, but I can not see it happening with a Management thats hell bent on going about business in the wrong way seeking confrontation and resent instead of meaningful dialogue. I guess you wouldn't get a different tack from a to the core corrupt union like BASSA.
Funny seeing the same faces in Singapore all the time whilst others can't get them for their requests for years.......hmmmm funny that.

[G--SPOT]

PC767,
For info I think you'll find that the £2.50 is paid for time away from base not flying hours so the 900 hour limit will not come into it.

So for a HKG for instance TAFB is 82 odd hours you would get around £210. Not great, but better than what you were thinking.

[PC767]

Ok, I don't have BA's proposals about the hourly rate and when it would apply, so I have no reason to argue with your figure, but I am aware that the maximum duty per annum is 2000hrs of which 900hrs are flight time. So working on 2000hrs that still amounts to a variable pay of £5000.

To those concerned that these hours are part time, well I'm afraid they are set by European legislation and apply to all flying crew, (including those 'part time' captains on £100k - your inference not mine!). Prior to the introduction of the work time directive world wide crew averaged 1200hrs flying time, and many would be happy to see the restrictions lifted.

To those concerned about the lack of qualifications needed to apply for cabin crew, well, cannot argue with that. Major airlines including BA have a tough recruitment process and a high refusal rate. I can think of other decently paid jobs were qualifications are not required. No arguing that alot of pilots are graduates but I also know of those who are not. Self improvers, and still capable. I was previously a police office, (hence PC767), no qualifications required. I work alongside former nurses, teachers, managers and other professionally qualified people. They work as cabin crew not because they are unemployable elsewhere but by choice.

Shaka Zulu, your wife, I presume, still has a choice. My friend was a maths teacher for 8 years before she felt the need for a change. What she has lost by becoming cabin crew is social standing (if thats important to one) and the potential to graduate to higher earnings.

This debate is not about a group of workers asking for more, more more. Its about maintaining what we have, what BA contracted to pays us having passed their tough recruitment process. There are bad egg crew online, but thats the case in all jobs and professions. What is unfortunately hard is the removal of these people but laziness isn't a sackable offence. I know that because I'm part way through my second degree, this time an LLB.

[Hotel Mode]

Ok, I don't have BA's proposals about the hourly rate and when it would apply, so I have no reason to argue with your figure, but I am aware that the maximum duty per annum is 2000hrs of which 900hrs are flight time. So working on 2000hrs that still amounts to a variable pay of £5000.


And there we have a demonstration of BASSAs techniques. Tell the crew they wont like something, whip them into a frenzy but never tell them what they wont like.

The hourly rate is from check in to check out at LHR/LGW, whether you are on duty, flying, in a bar or asleep in a hotel room.

There is a qualification requirement for a pilot. A CPL/ATPL

[TheKabaka]

Here is an intersting link with emplyee costs (inc cabin crew) for uk airlines


http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline_data/2006Annual/Table_1_14_Airline_Personnel_Cost_UK_and_Overseas_2006.pdf

[Smell the Coffee]

There is a qualification requirement for a pilot. A CPL/ATPL

I think PC was referring to academic qualifications.

Other than that, I agree with the gist of your post. BASSA have whipped the crew into a frenzy before anything has even been proposed ... it is no wonder management and other BA staff look upon crew as a bunch of selfish teenagers living in a bubble.

I just feel sorry for those crew that actually have some brains and see the bigger picture ... unfortunately their voices are drowned out by BASSA and some of its membership.

I fully support the need for unions, but BASSA are an embarrassment ...

[ltn and beyond]

The above link to the CAA cost table makes for interesting reading, looking at the average of a the airlines and the current economic situation it should not come as any suprise that BA want to bring their crew more in line with the industry norm.

This looks to me to be a good time for BASSA not to whip up everyone into a strike frenzee but act like grown ups and manage the situation and protect their members futures.

Any thoughts what answers BASSA will give when the question is asked why should BA maintain the current structure which is expensive to manage, over complicated and out dated in the current economic climate?.

I do hope the have good answers and not just that "we have earned it", this is not a dig at BA crew but a genuine concern for everyone !!!!!!

[Shaka Zulu]

Indeed, now what did I say about benchmarking?
It's all well and good saying you have earnt it and so you have but in any business, market forces do apply.
BASSA has got a habit of going into absolute turmoil and missing the bigger picture completely. As we found out when they piggy backed on the pension agreement that the BACC sorted out for them...(don't worry, it was a smart move to do so)

Now if you can somehow prove (ai benchmarking) that the package is in agreement with industry wide averages or slightly above then I think you'll be in a far stronger position than you are now.
And I do not mean benchmarking against a company like EZY or RYR etc but to other 'legacy' carriers like KLM/Lufty/AF/IB and so on...

What strikes me as odd is that their is so much resistance against an hourly rate without knowing the full story? The pilots did switch to that rate to equal out the ridiculous situation of abusing the system. Not their fault, it was in place, I grant you that but it wasn't fair.
The same is still happening to the Cabin Crew, see my post earlier about Singapore.
The same faces are always there and the same faces are the vociferous members of BASSA.
I'm not parting blame on anyone, but a simply hissy fit is not going to sort this one out.

[Glamgirl]

It is a well known fact that BASSA uses emotive language in their communication to their members. It is also a well known fact that they only care about the LHR operation (I can give examples if needed). Also, BASSA want crew to strike at the drop of a hat (or so it seems)

I found it highly irresponsible to email/text members late on a friday night about the whole Colombus issue. I'm not saying that they should hold back information, but what happened to contact managers at the company first? Why not wait until the monday morning so crew could have had some reassurance/comments/questions answered by managers?

I think a lot of crew have gone completely over the top with this whole thing. It's not worth losing sleep over (yet) as it is just a project. How long does it normally take for BA to implement new stuff? AGES!! It took nearly 2 years from the Single fleet at LGW being announced until the first flight took off.

For us as an airline, to survive, we need to look at costs and how to reduce them. Me saying that, does not mean that we should only look at cutting crew costs. I think we could easily get rid of lots of managers for a start. There are other departments in the company who are being forced to look for other jobs within the company or leave altogether, all in the name of cost cutting, as their own department is being shut down.

Basically, to survive, we need to cut costs. It is no secret that BA has some of the highest salaries for crew (LGW exempt). I'm fully aware that majority of LHR crew are on a post 97 contract, but the vast difference between bases is unbelieveable. I'm not saying that all LHR crew should come to LGW salary level, but something more fair is reasonable as far as I'm concerned.

Also, LGW has always been a blue print of the future of BA. Did the crew at LHR really think they're untouchable? I'm not saying you don't deserve what you earn now, nor am I saying that it will bring me pleasure if your salaries get cut (far from it), but the fact that at LGW we earn a pittance compared to you guys and your response is usually "just transfer then" is annoying. Why shouldn't we all be paid the same? Why aren't LHR crew fighting for our LGW rights? (apart from sympathy).

I didn't intend this post to turn into a them-and-us post, but I do feel quite strongly about this. The amount of crew claiming they have no faith in our management and won't believe a word of what they say, may I recommend that you seek other employment. Why would you want to work for a company you despise so much?

For PC767, the hourly pay is from check-in to check-out, NOT duty or flying hours. If you go on a five day trip, you get paid for when you're not flying too. Your tax will come down, as you pay more tax with all the various allowances at LHR. The trips will be more fair, as you'll get the same whether you do a Narita or Calcutta, depending only on length of trip. Also, you'll still be paid when you have to stay on the aircraft for an hour waiting for wheelchairs or whatever. May I recommend you get all the facts about the hourly pay (not from BASSA) before you get into a spin.

Sorry about the long post, I just had to get it off my chest. It may still get edited (by me) as I think of more to say (brace brace).

I'm now putting my bullet proof vest and helmet on, waiting for incoming missiles (in the shape of words).

Gg (remaining positive and optimistic in a scary, changing world)

Ps. Please give a thought to crew from other airlines, esp. United and Qantas. They're losing jobs! At least that's not happening to us (yet)

[langtoftlad]

Here is an intersting link with emplyee costs (inc cabin crew) for uk airlines
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...rseas_2006.pdf (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline_data/2006Annual/Table_1_14_Airline_Personnel_Cost_UK_and_Overseas_2006.pdf)


Those statistics are of course costs not salaries - I'm sure everyone is aware of BA's top heavy management structure. This obviously add a higher proportion of cost to each employee listed than some other, perhaps more efficient operators.

I wish I could find again the statistic which compared managers per airframe of several different airlines.
Instructive.

[SuperBoy]

So many of you have so much to say and you have no idea what Columbus entails.

BASSA informed us as soon as they had the information. I for one would rather know whether it be a monday or a friday. I had a conversation with LM and it is frightening how far along this project is.

Sticking ones head in the sand is not going to change anything.

Glamgirl you make valid points but perhaps if BA made sensible advances then we would not be where we are now. I must disagree with your sentiment on as you put it "us and them" I'm not going to go in to the history of LGW but the blame lies firmly at the feet of the crew who voted for various changes. LGW had an oppurtunity in 1992 but that is another discussion.

I agree that changes need to be made but sensible communication and transparency would go a long long way. Alas I do not think that WW or STS will ever gain the trust of any member of IFS ever again.

As for all the BA bashers have fun.

[Glamgirl]

Superboy,

So we at LGW should be punished for something that could have happened in 1992? That's 16 years ago for crying out loud! If the voting you're referring to is about the Single Fleet, you may want to know that most of the people who was eligible to vote were WW crew (LGW based) who knew their options before the vote. They knew they weren't going to stay, and therefore couldn't care less what happened to us.

Bassa has a long and painful history of putting our t&c's at LGW down. Who offered the company 9p and hour instead of our breakfast allowance? Who made sure we can have a max rostered duty day of 12.5 hrs to protect the WW operation at LHR? Who didn't want us in NSP? And when that got decided, everyone at LGW at the time ended up with seniority date of Oct 06, even the ones who've been with the company over 30 years. Who's walked out of countless meetings or not bothered to turn up at all? Yep, it's your beloved Bassa.

I don't want this to sound like Bassa bashing, I'm just stating facts. I've been so disappointed with Bassa that I can't explain it. The open communication needs to come from both sides. I'm not saying that I agree with Colombus, far from it, I think it sounds scary too, but I do think something will happen, although not as bad as some people think it will be.

Gg

[6chimes]

The whole thing smells a bit fishy.

Let me offer a possible theory:

The company (BA) is following a practice used by politicians over the last few years. By 'leaking' information that offers a worst case scenario that frightens the b'jesus out of everyone and gets them thinking the worst, then offer a 'compromise'; which was exactly what the company wanted in the first place.

Fear is a wonderful tactic to get what you want.

6

[SuperBoy]

Glamgirl,

You clearly have an axe to grind. I understand the emotions at LGW as I am LGW based, for another week atleast.

I only mentioned that there were choices as there were but for many reasons people chose different options that were available to them.

As for LGW WW voting for SFG I think you should check your facts as that is not correct.

As for "my beloved BASSA", I am not in BASSA, I try and be subjective and I base my theories on facts.

[Litebulbs]

SB

Objective?

I do not work for BA, I left almost 10 years ago. I was not crew. I have negotiated pay to a lesser extent when at BA for my department and now directly with my current employer.

Both staff and management go out to industry to benchmark salaries when negotiating pay. You use words like quartile, mean, median, average, local and whatever the latest term is. Staff side pitch high and the suits pitch in the gutter.

Look at Virgin. SRB puts a heavy weight to the benefits VS offer the crew against offering a high basic wage. They still recruit and do have very loyal staff, well the ones that I know.

BA, if you believe the comments on here have a great wage (LHR and/or pre 97) and a good benefits package.

Are the crew any better than any other crew member working in the industry in the UK? In my experience of flying as a passenger, no.

Now recruitment of BA crew is subjective. What is it based on? Only the recruiters will know. The days of recruiting for just looks have gone. Is it the Rhodean accent and knowing the front end of a horse from the back still relevant? Who knows. Is there positive discrimination and if so what for?

Will business travelers stop flying the worlds favorite if every crew member now flying for a charter airline in the UK redeploys to BA. I doubt it.

I would imagine a 10 year crew member at a charter airline has had to deal with more situations that that of an equally time served BA employee, just because most of them have flown to maximum hours governed by the CAA and not a scheduling agreement. At the big charters, this is the time it takes to make a lead role in the cabin. OK, 10 years to a LHR based crew member is not that much time, but any career orientated person outside the industry would expect a senior role in that time scale. They have also had to deal with flying 350 plus pax with 9 crew and no crew rest.

Would I cut your wages and benefits? Of course I would not, and I fully understand a lot of people are making money out of you, the customer facing employees. However, if you look at the figures and your management bonus depends on it, you are a very tempting target as you are sitting in a very conspicuous position above the MARKET RATE.

[SuperBoy]

"Objective???"

Subjective: a subject's perspective, particularly feelings and beliefs

Objective: is a goal a planned or intended outcome

[Litebulbs]

I thought that if you were using emotions, feelings and opinions, then you would be being subjective but if you were making statements of fact, it would be objective. Always works hard is subjective but never late or sick is objective. Looks good in their uniform, subjective or adheres to the company uniform standard, objective. I may be missing the point and I only got a C at O level, so I could be in the wrong here. If I am, please accept my appoligies.

[Virginia]

Guys, I'm really sorry but it looks like things are about to get a lot worse::sad:

Recruitment freeze
Cuts in allowences
Reduction of hotel standards
Grounded flights-less people can afford to fly when they can barely pay their fuel bills
Suspension/cancellation of all training courses
No more trips and nightstops on EF. Shorter trips on WW
Rumours in the Times of a buy on board service :uhoh:

Expect a summer of discontent. For us all. Lots of people in all sectors are about to face sweeping redundancies, not just BA, not just aviation.

I am really upset about collective job losses.
Not just me but ALL of us. :( Lets face it, the economy is dire.

[747-436]

No more trips and nightstops on EF. Shorter trips on WW

There has to be nightstops on Eurofleet, otherwise how do the first flights of the day get in to LHR?!?

[wiggy]

I'm sorry Virginia but excuse me for butting in as "Flight Deck". I've spent the last week working with colleagues who frankly have no idea what the Company are proposing - if anything, but BASSA have whipped them into a frenzy with one text message and an e-mail. Now you come out with what looks like another management wish list - where on Earth did your list come from - or are you just trying to increase the angst amongst BA Cabin Crew?

[marlowe]

Buy On Board wondered when that would show up again ,first tested by BA"s training fleet for managers ie. BA Cityflyer or BA Connect as it was then, two years ago welcome back BOB!!!!!!!!

[HZ123]

This is geting very emotional and is as yet based on rumours which is what this web site is all about. As a Cranebank resident I would recommend after 35 years with BA that you all try to remain calm and let those at Waterworld do what they have to and then we can all see what the options and outcome will be. Not for the first time Virginia has shown us a number of the plans that are expected. I would concur with much of what she has said and there has most certainly been an e-mail to FC with some of those plans included i.e. 757 / 767 a/c to be reduced in numbers asap.

Many of us show a complete ignorance about the industry we work in and that is not exclusive to CC. I find it hard to believe that some of us cannot see the changes that must come in the near future, they will be painful and cost us all monies that we have already spent. Some of us, even many that have only known BA as a PLC seem to think that we are immune to market forces and ignoring what is happening around you will make it go away.

As one post has already made clear our service standard is no better than anyone else on a bad day and sometimes it is even worse. Night flights for many of us are a social as allready remarked on, get the pax bedded down asap.

Sadly had many of us devoted a little more to customer service than to ou own ends we might have been able to weather the next couple of years but it is already much to late so we will have to await our fate. I fear even industrial action will only bring about more loses even sooner and might play into managements hands.

[marlowe]

Virginia, try and get yourself a copy of the BA Cityflyer terms and conditions this will give you an insight of how BA would like to control cabin crew in the future. For the last 18 months the company have gone out of their way to avoid any union agreements, infact only yesterday they disputed the cabin crew numbers for automatic recognition as laid down by law. If you do get a copy try and remember this is the 21st century as you read it, because it would be easy to think you were reading something from the 1800s. As for buy onboard all the testing and trialling of this was done by BAconnect 2 years ago out of sight of LHR and LGW crews, Pax hated it because they did not see a drop in ticket prices to LCC levels and had to pay for refreshment as well ,the company name was soon shortened to BA CON by the passengers !!

[Virginia]

Marlowe-interesting. I was offered a job at BA Cityflyer but turned it down.

I don't see how buy on board would work at Mainline but who knows??? :\

The fact is as HZ123 said, these are all rumours. My opinions are of what I see possibly happening and have heard via Galley FM. No doubt there will be a recruitment freeze (why are we still hiring at LGW?) This last batch of training courses will the last for a loooooong time. Yes as 747-436 has pointed out, BA would have to re-juggle to enable no nightstops for EF. I'm not being funny but I LOVE trips, I joined BA to see some of the world not do 4 sectors a day and tidying up the cabin. Been there done that. If BA ends up like that many of us will no longer be at BA. I have heard about cuts in allowences...of course if they sell us out to subsidiary they can do what they want pay wise :yuk:

Also I am thinking of our customers. Imagining buy on board, badly trained and paid cabin crew serving, dirty cabins etc etc

We don't know what will happen. Yes it's worrying. But what does worrying achieve? What we know is the economy will pick up etc But for now things might get a bit grim! Still, all we can do it do our jobs well, expect the worse and hope for the best!

Every airline is going to be facing difficulties, United has just laid off 950 pilots! Let's just be thankful we have jobs at BA and emphathise with our not so lucky collegues. I am sad for anyone who gets made redundant in whatever sector they are in. Last night I actually got really upset reading all these rumours. Bye Bye BA? :sad:

[marlowe]

Anything is possible in this climate Virginia and perhaps somethings might not work at mainline as it stands but ? As the pilots have found out what BA wants it usually gets!

[jetset lady]

Virginia,

If the rumours are upsetting you, please don't read them and I mean that in a nice way. I don't like to see any of my colleagues upset and worried. Until we have the facts on the table in front of us, we don't know what we're dealing with. And I'm sorry but BASSA just love to wind everyone up into a frenzy. Don't get me wrong, the world is changing and we are going to have to change with it, like it or not, if we want an airline to work for at the end of this, but I do think between us, it's possible. It's not going to be a picnic by any means, but we need to accept that the Golden Age of aviation is long gone and unfortunately, I don't think it'll ever come back. It's time for us to look past the end of the runway and face reality. On the plus side, these things tend to go in circles and if we can survive this as an airline, we'll be stronger than ever. It's gonna take a bit of give and take on both sides though!

Keep smiling, hard though it may be at the moment!

Jsl

P.S. And before anyone comes at me saying I'm naive in the ways of BA management etc etc, no I'm not. I'm just a realist!

[monkeybusiness2]

JSL - I really don't think BASSA have wound anyone up.

BASSA did the right and responsible thing in my opinion. It caused a lot of upset and concern amongst the crew community, but not half as much had they not disclosed the information.

[TopBunk]

but we need to accept that the Golden Age of aviation is long gone and unfortunately, I don't think it'll ever come back

... it certainly has not gone for BA WW CC with their box payments, working one down payments, unfair destination payments, etc, just look at he CAA report mentioned above. Nor has it gone for BA EF CC with their ludicrous working agreements delivering unsustainable productivity.

Don't get me wrong, I wish you a soft landing, but do not delude yourselves about the reality of how good your present terms are.

[jetset lady]

monkeybusiness2,

I sorry but I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you there. I think the timing and the text messages were meant to deliberately maximise the effect amongst crew and I don't think they had enough cast iron facts. However, that's just my personal opinion.

I also agree with 6chimes and can't help but wonder if the leak may have been deliberate. Now what follows is purely an example to get my point across and has not been suggested by anyone in the company. Say Willie has popped up to Mr STS's office one afternoon and said "We need to get rid of the CSD rank at LHR and change it to the Cabin Manager role as its worked at LGW and it's going to save us lots of money." Well Mr STS is going to know the fury that will greet that announcement, so he suggests that, as a way round it, they leak a top secret suggestion from Hewitts to sub out all cabin crew, thereby causing panic and chaos. And who best to leak this top secret plan to but BASSA. As they know from past experience, BASSA will put it straight out there to the community. Then once everyone is suitably wound up, management can they say that they are turning down Hewitts suggestions to sub out the crew because they care about us, but that they will regretfully have to change the CSD rank to CM to get us through these difficult times. The hope would then be that most crew will heave a huge sigh of relief that their jobs are safe and the company can quietly do away with CSD role. As I've already said, this is pure speculation on my part, but who knows what goes on behind the board room doors.

Jsl

Edited to correct spelling.

[jetset lady]

TopBunk,

I'm a LGW Psr. I haven't really got that far to fall anymore!

Jsl

[wiggy]

JSL

Top posts:ok:.

People are rightly concerned about the future but frankly too many people are treating as gospel truth what they are hearing via Galley FM at the moment. Now wether the "noise" is coming from the Unions or management is another matter and I'll let you guys argue about the whys or wherefores of that.

[Hotel Mode]

There is absolutely no point in fussing about what might happen. Frankly if oil goes to $200-250 a barrel then we may not have an employer let alone worry about our T+Cs. It really annoys me how BASSA like to keep crew scared so they can maintain their power base. One day they'll cry wolf too often.

[Virginia]

JSL seems like a very wise purser and I will try to take on board some of her optimism. I think it's time I turn on the television and watch some 'chewing gum for the eyes' to keep my brain occupied. :}

Right, well hopefully everything will turn out ok for us all etc

[TopBunk]

JSL

I'm a LGW Psr. I haven't really got that far to fall anymore!


I wouldn't argue with you at all. That is why my post mentioned WW and EF (ie LHR LH and LHR SH CC) and not SFG (Single Fleet Gatwick). You are at the opposite end of the spectrum within BA.

I wish you well, seriously, having worked at LGW in the mid 90's in EOG myself.

[sussex2]

These U.S. based companies that flog themselves around the world with fantastic ideas like Operation Columbus generally IMHO do a few things:
1. Charge enormous fees.
2. Wreck companies with their mad brained ideas.
3. Retreat back to the U.S.
4. Leave everyone else to pick up the pieces.
I've never known it to be different!

[Human Factor]

JSL - I really don't think BASSA have wound anyone up.

I have to disagree. BASSA released the info on a Friday night when they knew full well that no BA manager would be available to confirm or refute the allegation until Monday, thereby giving their members a couple of unnecessarily sleepless nights. If that wasn't done to wind people up and provoke a reaction, I don't know what it was for. :rolleyes:

[OnTheLocaliser]

Latest rumour from Waterside is that from April 2009, CC will have to pay for their uniforms along with shelling out for their car park permits to park at LHR/LGW though public transport (Bus, Tube and Train) incentives may be provided to compensate. Meanwhile, it was heard that CC sickness reached record levels on Day 3 of Wimbledon :ugh: - this just plays into WW's hands. :*

[skywatch77]

paying for uniform?? This isn't Ryanair you know.. Only rumours so don't anyone believe this tripe. :ok:

[biddedout]

Another thing to keep an eye on is crew food. Managers in BACon tried to scrap crew food and replace it with the option for crew to buy their food from the Buy on board offering. With a small increase in FDP to pay for it.

All day breakfast, greasy piza, clotted cream scone. Mega trans fats all round. It would have helped with the pension fund mortality figures, but fortunately, the BALPA reps told them where to stick it.

The two years of BACon was simply an experiment to see what they could get away with.

[marlowe]

Biddedout very true about Connect being a training ground ,and its still going on with BACityflyer now with their terms and conditions . unfortunately Bassa are not interested in this company and Amicus dont want to know either ,so BA can test some of their ideas in a controlled enviroment in a subsidary without any union interference. In fact BA could probably argue that as BACityflyer are a wholly owned subsidery and as there is no union objection they could just implement some of the ideas into mainline, i mean what are BASSA going to do threaten a strike ? We all know what path BA would take they showed that with the pilots and they are now Willies B*tches so what have they to lose ?

[OnTheLocaliser]

It's not Ryanair at the moment, granted, but its edging closer wouldn't you say? Paying for uniforms from April 2009 - you heard it here first. :ok:

[sussex2]

I worked for AA for fifteen years. It was outsource this, outsource that one week. Then 'oh dear no' that isn't working and back in house it all came. It was a rollercoaster ride they didn't seem able to get off, but, mostly confined to the hard working ground crews.
The only people who got any kind of financial reward for it were the companies that came up with the tin pot ideas.
About the only sensible idea was to reduce headquarters staff by three quarters - more than two steps removed from the pax and you were out.
But hey ho and guess what I'd put a quid on it each way that those numbers are back up again.
BA have a good base of experience, professional cabin crew, not all of them by any means prone to sudden bouts of sickness over Wimbledon or Ascot. They should, with the help of the unions respect this and bring these people forward, and, deal properly with those that are taking the mickey.

[wiggy]

"We all know what path BA would take they showed that with the pilots".

I think the real lesson from the "Open Skies" ballot was you had better be sure of your legal position before you ballot - the Cabin Crew Unions might stand more chance balloting over stale sandwiches and Uniforms than we did over obscure details in EU treaties.

.... " and they are now Willies B*tches so what have they to lose ?" Being presumably older then you I'm not up to speed with todays yoof and gangsta talk....it sounds like a somewhat derogatory comment - I hope it isn't; care to explain :}

[marlowe]

wiggy you are showing your age !!!! a term from American prisons where an older prisoner usually a guy serving life takes a naive younger prisoner and makes him his "wife" in all senses of the word Or put another way big BA showing little naive BALPA the way it is in the world they are both in . As a pilot workforce Wiggy you were let down by your union it didnt want to lose any money fighting your case in the courts, Willy now knows that he can beat BALPA every time by seeking court action and they will back down because all they care about is money and not its members interests . Hence you will all do as he wishes in the future, you have become his B*tches .

[Juan Tugoh]

My what an active imagination you have marlowe. But if you think like that, what makes you think WW will not employ the same tactics against BASSA? Or do they have deeper pockets or are they somehow immune to the new regime in Waterside?

[marlowe]

JT, without a shadow of a doubt BASSA would cave in thats the trouble with unions now they look on themselves as a business to make money not as a union to protect workers rights. I expect to become one of Willys B*tches in the not to distant future! lol!!!!!

[HZ123]

How many CC would wish to strike and how many could afford too. Am I not correct in stating that on the last strike CC were returning to work in their 1000's. Many threaders have made the observation that the industry has and is about too change drastically, those of us that are lucky to enjoy decades of good terms and conditions have little influence today. CC of the 2000's have vastly differing attitudes to those some of us held. Let us face it like so many other tasks it is just another job from which many will move on to other things. It is not so loing ago all BA staff were up in arms about the pension and the actions that we were going to take, in the end nothing happened BA did what they will which is exactly what will happen now.

[marlowe]

HZ123 you are correct in saying that the crew of the 2000s have different attitudes , nobody seems to care about terms and conditions that much anymore . I work in a section that has a fairly high Eastern european contingent at the moment and its all about the money, nothing wrong in that we all want to earn a decent wage but they are not worried about better terms and conditions in the long term because they know they wont be here that long , so they work all the days off they can legally get away with ,and get as many trips as they can at the expense of the other crews ,earn the money and are totally oblivious to the fact that they are driving down working conditions for everyone else .

[galanjal]

have read loads on here about what might happen and also heard loads of different rumours every time i go to work. nobody on here knows for sure what will actually happen. and that's a fact! lhr crew are under review and that should come as no suprise. we are the last faction of crew who are paid decent wages for what we do. i really hope we keep what we have as so many pax have said that they love the british part of ba. and that includes all of our european crew obviously but pax do love the british attitude and accent too.