Will Atlas actions effect Polar as well?

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

Have heard that Atlas is pulling all of the Classic B74Fs out of
scheduled service, concentrating on Military and charters only.
Are there any lay-offs associated with this? and will this also affect
the POLAR side?.
Definitely not a good month for the FE positions, First Tradewinds,
then MK, then Gemini, now Atlas

[flite idol]

Almost all of the 200 fleet is doing AMC, charter and adhoc anyway so for now no change or furloughs!
Tomorrow........who knows!!!!

[Po Boy]

Atlas actually had to recall furloughed FE's, and we have been hiring all year long for the 400 side of the operation. I heard that we have picked up many African charters lately, due to the grounding of MK.

[BillyBob521]

No, Atlas will claim the military flying they are doing is thier flying even though all the contracts are/or were under the Polar name. Its called contract flying. Good luck with that! Sorry to hear about Gemini, but Their case against their company is yet to be decided. Sounded like the cuboards were bare. Hope I'm wrong, because no union can get blood from a turnip.

[WhaleFR8]

No, Atlas will claim the military flying they are doing is thier flying even though all the contracts are/or were under the Polar name. ummm.... did you forget that Atlas BOUGHT Polar? Wouldn't their purchase of Polar include the flying? Or do you somehow think the flying and contracts for military flying belonged to the Polar Pilots? Pretty ridiculous statement.

[L-38]

No doubt Whale, that Atlas had bought Polar . . . inclusive also of Polar's labor contract . . .

Here we go again . . .

[WhaleFR8]

...and no one has questioned the Polar pilots right to grieve the parts of the contract that they feel the company has violated. What is being questioned is the constant delaying tactics - such as grieving the hotel choice for negotiations. What is also in question are some of the proposed remedies submitted by the Polar MEC that are specifically designed to hurt the Atlas pilot group.

An arbitrator will determine whether or not the company has met the parameters of a "complete operational merger." Anything you or I say here will not make one whit of a difference. The only reason to post counter arguments to such as above, is to correct the obvious misinformation and misdirection being espoused by some on this board at the direction of Robobbin.

For it is not the Atlas pilots that decide when and where, or what contracts we fly. It is not even for us to say which or how many of our aircraft are given to the Polar business unit. We accept that. So why continually attack the Atlas Pilots? Why can't Billy accept the fact that Polar was purchased for a reason; or several reasons? One of these may have been quick access to the military flying. Another may have been the Japan routes. We have all determined by now that it certainly wasn't for the profitability of the business model.

Instead posts such as his that continually snipe at the Atlas pilots for something they have no control over are divisive at best and really contribute nothing to the overall debate. One can only assume that this tactic is being used to further obfuscate the fact that there is no real roadblock to a merged list. This tactic is in fact another way to cause delays and to anger many in the hopes that someone will create an issue by their words or actions that would justify another grievance or another court case - hence another delay. It is the tactic of someone who knows he has a weak case and hope the delay will allow the whole shebang to be overcome by future events. Meantime the Atlas pilots suffer (as do the Polar pilots) with no contract and the possibility of a good contract further and further away due to the downward trend in the economy.

[L-38]

For it is not the Atlas pilots that decide when and where, or what contracts we fly . . . Why can't Billy accept the fact that . . .

I think that I understand you, Whale . . . and as I possibly become sympathetic, and also while Atlas operates military charter classic's that masquerade in Polar call signs while uncompensated Polar FE's sit at home . . . then please repeat after me . . . If - I - were - a - Polar - Pilot, - then - I - would - be - angry - too. . .

Thanks' Whale! - that helps.

Look for a decisive ruling for/against management. . . now due in early August

[WhaleFR8]

Sure as long as you repeat after me.

If - I - were - an - Atlas - Pilot - I - would - be - angry - too.

Angry that my Profit sharing went to purchase a money losing enterprise that drove us into bankruptcy and caused the furloughs of many of my fellow pilots.

Angry that, while hopeful that the Polar pilots would join us in negotiating with the company, they opted for a token 3% bribe to extend their negotiations.

Angry that their former MEC chair helped prevent us from striking by agreeing to fly six Atlas aircraft beginning the day after we would have struck.

Angry at the posting of the Scab Announcer list and the forming of the "strike breakers committee."

Angry at not being able to get to section six negotiations during a time when we would have had some economic leverage due to the delay tactics of the current Polar MEC.

Angry that the Polar strike was not a real strike but was specifically aimed at Atlas pilots.

Angry at the resolutions postured by the Polar MEC in their grievances that specifically target the Atlas pilots jobs and job security.

Angry at the suggestion by most Polar pilots and FEs that post on this board that Atlas pilots somehow had something to do with all of these business decisions that have caused the demise of Polar.

Polar pilots are hurting now because of the company actions. Conversely, the Atlas pilots are hurting due to the specific actions of the Polar MEC.

.... so repeat after me. All in unison now.
If - I - were - an - Atlas - Pilot - I - would - be - angry - too.

[WhaleDriver]

I think that I understand you, Whale . . . and as I possibly become sympathetic, and also while Atlas operates military charter classic's that masquerade in Polar call signs while uncompensated Polar FE's sit at home

Sorry, I've flown dozens of military flights in the last two years and have NEVER seen nor used a Polar call sign. Fantasy is a wonderful thing.

I know, I know, a friend of yours saw a Atlas plane use a Polar call sign once at RMS, but Polar is operating planes in Atlas colors, so.....?

[WhaleFR8]

....but Polar is operating planes in Atlas colors, so.....?
The Polar guys (some of them) insist on calling Atlas pilots scabs inferring it on this board, (or in the many PMs I and others have received) and outright saying it on boards such as APC. I even have copies of some of their own web board postings in which they claim that anyone flying ACMI is a scab. Nice!

I have yet to fly an aircraft in Polar colors. How many Polar guys have flown 516 or 416? Now if Atlas pilots were to strike would the Polar guys quit flying those aircraft? I wonder.

In one of their grievance remedies Robobbin want Holdings to transfer even more Atlas aircraft to the Polar Business unit. Seems they can't get enough of flying Atlas Aircraft.

Flying a call sign is one thing. In the freight industry it is fairly common. Southern Air flew JAL callsigns. World flew Air Canada call signs. I even saw a JAL aircraft flying a Dynasty call sign once. Now flying another company's aircraft, while accusing that company's pilots of being scabs???..... I guess, were it me, I would not be so quick to point fingers.

[layinlow]

Ageed Whalefr8. ACMI carriers do use the customer's call signs. And Polar is treated as a customer. As far as who is flying military freight. Many of the contracts are Fed Ex's and then passed along to other carriers Fed Ex getting a cut. Who flies the freight, Atlas or Polar,is of no concern..for now. Only the reliability.

[BELOWMINS]

All this to do about military flying is based on a convenient premise I've seen expressed by the Atlas folks on this board. That premise is that military flying belongs to AAWH and they can assign it to whomever they choose. A very convenient premise as long as you are on the recieving end of the flying. Not so convenient should AAWH decide not to assign it to either Atlas or Polar but to some other entity of their choosing.

[Intruder]

Atlas and Polar have BOTH flown military charters throughout their history. How can ANYONE say that any specific AMC flight today is "supposed to be" Polar or Atlas?!?

[742]

All this to do about military flying is based on a reality I've seen expressed by the Atlas folks on this board. That reality is that military flying belongs to AAWH and they can assign it to whomever they choose. A very convenient reality as long as you are on the recieving end of the flying. Not so convenient should AAWH decide not to assign it to either Atlas or Polar but to some other entity of their choosing.


Fixed it for you.

As for your last sentence; this is why any other union, any other labor group and anyone with half a brain seeks to achieve a single bargaining unit ASAP after an acquisition. This is why “single carrier” is a labor tool, not a management one.

But that would mean one less MEC, wouldn’t it? For some it is better to break all the china in the shop than let that happen.

[Beaver_Driver]

That premise is that military flying belongs to AAWH and they can assign it to whomever they choose.
When Atlas bought Polar didn't they take over the Polar contract? Don't you expect them to abide by that contract? Isn't that contract then considered theirs to do with as they wish - as well as all the Pilots, Routes and authorities. Why do you say it is an Atlas Pilots premise? Isn't it just the way business is done? Atlas bought Polar so they can do as they want with the contracts and aircraft. Did you complain when the holding company transferred a bunch of aircraft to Polar? The answer to the title of this thread is of course Atlas actions will affect Polar as well. It is the same company with two different business units. Anything the holding company has done or will do to Atlas, they will do or have done to Polar.

[Fr8Dog]

Fixed it for you.

As for your last sentence; this is why any other union, any other labor group and anyone with half a brain seeks to achieve a single bargaining unit ASAP after an acquisition. This is why “single carrier” is a labor tool, not a management one.

But that would mean one less MEC, wouldn’t it? For some it is better to break all the china in the shop than let that happen.

Finally someone with some intelligence posting on this board, how refreshing.
I am sure you will get some s##t for it though 742

[trashhauler]

Question; If single carrier is a labor tool and not a management tool, why are the slime merchants at AAWWH pushing for it? If what you say is true, I would have thought it would be the other way around.
Remember, the slugs at management are NOT your friends!!!! If their mouth is moving, they're lying.
Time for both parties to stop the bickering and focus on the enemy.
Come on guys, get it together.

[WhaleFR8]

Seems like a silly question. If management can no longer divide and conquer; if we are all one solid unit with no venue for moving or transferring of flying or aircraft to motivate one group to act against the other - wouldn't that be better. Of course there are still 38 or so AABO pilots out there as well as the 40 Russian pilots allegedly recruited by an AABO crewmember, trained and type rated by Atlas just prior to the possible Atlas strike, and waiting in the wings for any kind of job action. So I suppose management will find a way to counter any solidarity move. Still seems like we would be better together than we are apart.

[zerozero]

Seems like a silly question. If management can no longer divide and conquer; if we are all one solid unit with no venue for moving or transferring of flying or aircraft to motivate one group to act against the other - wouldn't that be better. Of course there are still 38 or so AABO pilots out there as well as the 40 Russian pilots allegedly recruited by an AABO crewmember, trained and type rated by Atlas just prior to the possible Atlas strike, and waiting in the wings for any kind of job action. So I suppose management will find a way to counter any solidarity move. Still seems like we would be better together than we are apart.

Nail. On. The. Head.

The merger will be good for the pilot group because it stops the whipsawing (at least for now); increases our "collective power" to collectively bargain; and most importantly brings fresh leadership.

Bottom line: None of us are going anywhere with the chemistry between our respective leaders. It's time for new leaders that represent all of us to management with a single voice--the merger will DO THAT.

And of course the merger is good for the company because it will realize new efficiencies.

Not everything that is good for the company is bad for the crew member. Reasonable people evaluate issues based on their intrinsic merits.

That's not being a company man; that's taking the personality out of the discussion which has had far TOO much influence.

Not all of us want to go to FedEx or UPS; some of us want this company to be around another 20-30 years.

Fire away.
:8

[nitty-gritty]

I'm not so simple to believe that our groups would fall in love, but it is very simple that we would be better off together than being used against each other. We do need to put the hate to the side and work on collective future for the better of both groups. So we both can start getting ahead with our financial futures. Part of why I like the push to Teamsters. Circumvents the currently established ALPA hate climate among both carrier group MECs and National's favoritism and will get it done. Funny how ALPA only got interested in the long going (@2yrs+) Atlas/Polar merger again during the Prater Administration after the Atlas for Teamsters (http://atlasforteamsters.com) movement while at the same time ALPA National puts others carriers on the fast track day one without so much as a seniority agreement (NWA/DL for example).

[trashhauler]

Has anyone approached the Polar MEC about moving to the Teamsters? I doubt it. If Bourne would have stayed with Atlas and then proposed the Atlas moved, it sure would have looked better than moving to the Teamsters. The former MEC's cozy relationship with the AAWH management is well known. No wonder the Polaroids smell a fish. I could be wrong but still....the thought is still there.
Bottom line though, is the two groups better get together because, no matter what the mindset, the slugs at AAWH would shut the operation down in a minute if they thought it was in their interest. If you think they really cared about the you, you are sorely mistaken. They worry about one thing, how to squeeze the company dry then walk away. One a joint effort can fight these lowlifes. You better start talking to each other or you will perish.

[Beaver_Driver]

The former MEC's cozy relationship with the AAWH management is well known. Can you give some examples of that?

Just because someones style of negotiation is not the fist pounding, adversarial, take the company down in flames style that the Polar MEC is well known for, does not mean they are cozy with management. Interest based negotiations is finding those areas of an issue where both parties have common goals and interests and negotiating from there. I am sure that the Polar MEC sees this as kissing up to management but from our perspective, it seems to be working. That is what negotiations is after all. Give and take, compromise. In this economy and this day and age, the old styles of intimidation will not work. There is just too much competition out there willing to take our jobs for $50/day. We have to be reasonable and at least make an attempt to find common ground.
the slugs at AAWH would shut the operation down in a minute if they thought it was in their interest. And I am sure that management feels the same way about the Polar pilots. Your leadership has demonstrated this attitude time and again and even said so if my memory is correct.

If you think they really cared about the you, you are sorely mistaken. Once again management must think the the Polar pilots feel the same about them and the company.

They worry about one thing, how to squeeze the company dry then walk away. The Polar Pilots appear to want the same thing.

One a joint effort can fight these lowlifes. See this is a problem. Why fight them? Why not try to find common interests and work together? Take the emotion out of it. It is only a job. It is their company. It certainly doesn't belong to the Polar pilots.

[trashhauler]

I'm sorry Beaver but I just cannot see it that way. While the goals may be lofty, the fact is management is not your friend. How many times has your contract been violated? If they were so honorable, then I would agree with your premise; but the fact is that they constantly violate your CBA just as they did ours. There should never be a need for the grievance process. You can suck it up and let them get away with murder while you work toward a better agreement, which will never happen, or you can stand up to them and use the only tactic available to force them to actually bargain in good faith, which they never will. True, no one wants to force an airline to closure and loose a paycheck, but to let fear of loss of pay affect your judgement is just plain wrong. The company does not want that either so there some leverage.
We have two different groups, one who was bought by the company, who decided to ignore the CBA that went with the purchase, and another group that sees it as trying to take their jobs. The Poloroids feel the Atlas group and circumventing their jobs by using Polar as an ACMI customer. What the truth is can only be worked out by the respective parties to sit down and actually work toward a common goal of fighting management forcing them to honor the respective CBA's. Then collectively work toward a new combined contract that prtoects everyone's job. The collectively force them to honor the CBA. Going to the teamsters will not do that and the Polaroids who have actually work in a Teaster union environment sure does want that Get together and talk!!!!

[Heilhaavir]

Why do you still care Trash?

In any case, both will be Teamsters soon enough, and Bobbbb will have to go back to the line :D

trashhauler: <<Going to the teamsters will not do that and the Polaroids who have actually work in a Teaster union environment sure does want that Get together and talk!!!!>>

[FirstStep]

I have to agree with "Beaver Driver". I have confidence in our Bourne and our MEC in general. If the Management/Union relationship works, and if "cozy" can lead to "letters-of-agreement", then COZY-UP!. Sure, they are arch-enemies, and both are working toward opposite extremes, "Lower crew costs versus higher compensation". That said, if the two can hammer out a mutually beneficial agreement, so be it. When it cost the company, I know, and we all know, COZY ain't gonna do ****. That's when we get militant, why before?.
I also know I'm gonna get my arse chewed here soon enough, about grievances, management's lies, ect. Probably all true. The time to fix those is during contract negotiating. It ain't gonna get fixed sooner. :ugh::ok:

[trashhauler]

To H; I still have a lot of good friends there and although I've traded blue for brown, I still care.

As for First Step, you make a lot of good points, but if the company has not honored your contract now, and there is no stand taken, how do expect them to honor any future agreements?
If you think I have a dim view of management you are right. I have sat through too many grievance hearings at TWA. I've seen too many management shenanigans to look at things any other way. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

[Miami Freight]

"In any case, both will be Teamsters soon enough, and Bobbbb will have to go back to the line"

I think the way Bobb looks at it is he gets to go back to the line. How can flying not be a whole lot better that wading through this swamp?

[jocko2000]

Beaver you seem to have a lot of Venom to spit. You must be a lot of fun in the cockpit. I cannot wait to fly with you.

[Beaver_Driver]

No not really. I just have some questions about the whole thing.

It appears that quite a few who post on here have no real interest in Polar any more. So why continue to fan the flames? Quite a few others have never even met the Atlas MEC or heard anything about what that MEC is doing other than from Mr. Hendersen and his supporters. Wouldn't it be smart to find out for yourselves? I am just wondering how a person can accuse the Atlas MEC of such a thing without no real knowledge to back it up.

In the same post the gentleman, who is not even at Polar anymore, said many argumentative things that could conversely be applied to the Polar pilot group and the way they treat management.

For instance, I heard that when Mr. Flynn first arrived on scene, he held a meet and greet get together for both MECs and himself. The Polar group showed up in their uniforms (that they hadn't worn in years) and when it was Hendersen's turn to talk, instead of greeting the new CEO, he began a diatribe about the various grievances and problems the Polar council had with the company. I just think that the Atlas MEC's approach may have been better. "Welcome to Atlas Mr. Flynn. We look forward to working with you. You can call me any time if you have questions or problems." I know that there is a lot of animosity towards Mr. Cato from the Polar MEC. Most of it is probably justified. But Mr. Flynn just got there. This is but one example of the kind of adversarial relationship that the Polar MEC fosters with Atlas management. I guess I would rather have the type of relationship with management that retains the ability to communicate.

And I am a lot of fun to fly with - and I look forward to having you in my cockpit.

[layinlow]

As long as I am on furlough, I am still part pf Polar and I do care. Will my position ever come back, probably not, but I still care and when I see the adhominum attacks against people I consider a friend, of course I will respond.

[nitty-gritty]

I thought you took the money and ran, offered to some of the Polar FE's. You still have recall rights after that? I'm not really up to date on that one, but I remember Heilhaavir mentioning it at one time about you.

[Beaver_Driver]

Low,
I assume you meant ad hominem, which means to attack the man not the problem. I have been reading this forum for a long time under one name or another, and have not seen too many posts attacking Mr. Henderson personally. However, his behavior and the issues he has created are, by virtue of his office, open to criticism; especially when the proof is open for all to read in the remedies suggested in the various grievances he has filed.

Unlike the Polar guys who have, in the past, insisted on calling the Atlas Vice Chair names, accusing the Atlas MEC chair of colluding with the company with no proof, calling others scabs with no proof, and generally focusing on people instead of issues. Most of the time when that type of ad hominem attack happens it is because the attacker has no real argument or case. The words you used are nice and prove you are intelligent I guess. But in your case they are totally inappropriate.

As others have said, including some Polar guys IIRC, it would probably be better if you let it go. Quit stirring the pot. Focus on your job at FedEx. The Polar guys that are left have this one well in hand. It is probably time to quit pontificating on your new companies dime and, As someone else said, move on.

[Heilhaavir]

Come on now Mr T, you're not furloughed....

layinlow<<As long as I am on furlough, I am still part pf Polar and I do care>>

[Heilhaavir]

Miami Freight<<I think the way Bobb looks at it is he gets to go back to the line. How can flying not be a whole lot better that wading through this swamp?>>

Does he not know how to delegate? :rolleyes: I think that 100hr guaranty to make a few phone calls, write what others have prepared for him, and do what a few men of law tell him to do, is a pretty good deal in itself. He can't be THAT busy EVERYDAY...:p

[cptvac]

H

You sound like somebody with alot of time on his hands and a good deal of bitterness...

[rob rilly]

Vac, you figured H out for what he is !

[413X3]

this is exactly what management wants. divide each group, so even if you merge them, both will be so bitter that working together against management will probably never happen. you need to put aside your differences and realize labor always needs to support labor

[nitty-gritty]

I think the last batch of responses was some Polar infighting rather than the usual Atlas/Polar fighting.

Rightfully so with the facts at hand and in reality.... Something that has been in absence on one side of this equation for some time.

Now, lets get back to Atlas crew bashing vs reality and unifying...

[Miami Freight]

Does he not know how to delegate? I think that 100hr guaranty to make a few phone calls, write what others have prepared for him, and do what a few men of law tell him to do, is a pretty good deal in itself. He can't be THAT busy EVERYDAY...
Heilhaavir is offline Report Post Reply

H, unfortunately there are not a lot of volunteers to take on the task of fighting grievances,etc. We miss that loyal support that you used to provide. BTW, how's that Captains seat at Focus working out for you?

[BELOWMINS]

Nitty
In order to be Polar infighting all the participants would have to work for Polar.