The Truth About Spanish IRs

[ConcernedIR]

I feel there is a need to discuss Spanish Instrument ratings on this forum and some very worrying, disturbing and unsafe practices going on in Spain.

Let's start with the facts:


Spain is a full JAA member so you can have a Spanish IR added to your UK or any other JAA issued licence without a problem.

Spain has better weather and is cheaper than the UK.
However, let's talk about what really happens whilst in Spain.

Students go to Spain to undertake a course of training towards an instrument rating, which is normally a course of 55 hours for a Multi IR.


Unfortunately though some schools due to their lack of aircraft and instructors allow students to simply log flights, which they NEVER flew.

When the aircraft and instructor situation has worsened - Instrument Ratings have also been granted along with all relevant paperwork and logbook entries faked without a flight test even taking place. I also am seriously concerned about the integrity of the individuals I know who took part in such illegal activities.
Those who (say) took the Spanish IR often never flew a published approach, and examiners are known to draw approaches on a bit of scrap paper and ask the applicant to fly said approach. Some Instrument rated pilots who (say) they took the test, said they also never flew an approach in the test!
When students who say (all we have is their word) that they have a Spanish IR and appropriate training, and go on to complete their UK CPL, which should not require any IR training many of my fellow students required circa 5 hours extra IR training! (Students went to different schools so must be some truth in it!)

The MCC - is also meant to be a course to demonstrate multi crew skills. However, students from said schools have been known to fail (which you shouldn't be able to do) the MCC course as their basic instrument skills weren't up to scratch.

I was wondering what other people view this as, other than in my opinion a serious lack of safety and integrity standards....

Comments please...(I'm hoping this will create an interesting discussion)

[Orvil]

Hi Concerned,

I think this subject as been done many times.

For your interest I have many friends who have done there MEIR in spain and all of them are now flying commercially with UK operators.

None of them have had a problem getting employment nor keeping employed!

It's a case of how longs a piece of string really! I have been to many Schools in my training UK/Spain/USA and all of them have been relaxed in one thing or another. It's really impossible to say that " theres only one way to do this ".

In the past numerous people have tried to generate rumours of poor quality training abroad because they are involved with training in the UK. I can understand why they do this, all there custom is leaving them. Unfortunately, it will only get worse because of rising costs in the UK.

[doctordoom]

I have seen some crap on pprune but this takes the biscut, dodgey log books, flying approaches scribled on the back of cig packets and ghost flights. You the hell is running this school you are talking about, Aurther Daly or Delboy. Come on mate do you really think a school would get up to tricks like this. It would be shut in seconds, there is always some Dudley Doright student that would rat the place out. Do you think the Spainish are a pack of jokers and conmen.

[IRISHPILOT]

oh dear, oh dear. Now I have to be scared every time Iberia goes overhead? They must have cheated to get their rating. Everybody in Spain does of course. Always. Well, at least the weather is better and it is cheaper...

Is there an IR part in the CPL curriculum in the UK? I don't think so. - So obviously, the UK FIs and Examiners you are referring to did not quite understand the curriculum they should be following.

And several British pilots told you personally that they faked papers, tests etc? Why did they do that? So why discuss it here and not report them as you should? After all, you have proof beyond doubt?

When i did my initial IR with a well respected Irish airline, there was no NDB in the area, so the instructor drew a SID around a marine NDB. Without any doubt the best training I ever received. - If done well: no complaints.

Air Europa, Nostrum, Iberia: all a big scam...

[gmac1977]

ConcernedIR you've got some balls but I like it!

I've just walked in from a club and have had a few but i can't help but agree with you. Whether its the booze or whether its just having the right frame of mind to voice my opinions, who knows.

I've been training for my IR in the UK. In the past few weeks I've had the pleasure of back seating (whether on the FNPTII or A/C) 4 UK pilots attempting to revalidate their IR's (Revalidate is the key word). All 4 trained for their initial in Spain.

In a nutshell none of them could fly for toffee. Those that had the capacity to adjust just about winged it after several sorties in the sim, those that didn't, didn't!

I've often looked for reasons to justify training in the UK. I can conclude that its a matter of finances.
If all of the UK students rushing to Spain had a few more quid then they'd realise that quality UK training is priceless!

I await the tyrany!!!

[Privatairdreaming]

The good old IR debate.

I have trained in both the UK and in Spain for the IR. I started in the UK and after several thousand pounds and several hours wasted flying daisy patterns on the sim I decided that I would head out to Spain with a friend of mine to finish the IR off. He is now employed with BMI and I am finishing off my CPL.
Upon arrival in Spain I was very suprised to see a formation of commercial airliners flying daisy patterns over the NDB. *coughs* Bull!!
There is 2 types of training that I have found regarding the IR.
The first being the British way of making you have to do everything in a list with 100% accuracy, which was developed by a guy in a suit sat behind a comfortable desk in an air conditioned room when all S**T hits the fan thousands of feet in the air.
Im not saying the British way is wrong, Im saying it might be a little out dated for todays aviation world. But that is my opinion.

The second way of teaching an IR is the Spainish way which tends to make alot more sense. They are teaching you to fly in an airline enviornment and the examiners all fly for the airlines. The instructors of the school fly the schools private jet on charters for very important and normally rich people. To the best of my knowledge I dont recall the instructors flying this aircraft into Heathrow with the Benson and Hedges approach chart.

Upon completion of my IR in Spain I decided to go to Oxford and complete the MCC course. For anyone who has undertaken their MCC with Oxford they will know that you get graded from 1 - 5 with 5 being very unsatisfactory. Alot of the Oxford students were getting level 3s (at least the ones I knew) and I achieved mainly level 1s.
It may have been that the instructor on the MCC just liked the color of my Benson and Hedges approach chart or it is that the guys who taught me in Spain really knew what they was doing. They work in the airline enviornment and they are not looking at keeping their company afloat by making trainee pilots fly pretty patterns while they drain their wallets.

[LH2]

The good old IR debate.

Well, there is debate, and then there is Pprune :}

I could not help noticing that the originator of this thread posted a list under the heading of "facts" (all of two items, which are easily verifiable although he did not provide any references), and then another list of items he would like to talk about. At no point he suggests those are facts, or even allegations, or even hearsay--he simply wants to talk about it.

Which is fair enough. I assume the lad has never been to Spain and therefore might be a bit lacking in information as to what that country is really like. Furthermore, he might have suffered an attempt at being misled by some of the unscrupulous businesses back in the UK which have to resort to FUD tactics targeting the naïve in order to gain any customers, their own pass rates and quality of training being apparently not too good a selling point.

Because, one assumes, if anyone was to have even the weakest of evidence of any of the practises mentioned actually having taken place, one would waste no time in bringing it to the attention of the ECAC and the relevant national authorities. Not doing so would be highly irresponsible, and probably prosecutable, not to mention morally reproachable.

So the original poster has done well to come here and put those points forward, a proof (assuming he's been more or less truthful about his age) that at least some 24 year olds in the UK still have some critical thinking left. Well done indeed.

Now, because I do not wish to repeat myself too often, allow me to point you to my contributions in this recent thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=329871) (which as a newly registered member I realise the original poster might not have seen yet), wherein I express my view of what are some of the difficulties and frustrations associated with training abroad in different cultural environments.

If you allow me a quick aside, as for Spain itself, back in the 70s good weather and cheap prices were indeed pretty much all it had going for it. However, things have changed quite a bit in the last 35 years. Nowadays it's a modern country with development indicators at a par with other leading European nations, with some pretty impressive progressive legislation, and a liberal (very much so by northern European standards) but responsible society. Certainly the Wild West it's not, and one finds most aspects of daily life much more efficient than in the UK.

For the record, this comes from someone who feels equally at home (or equally foreign :)) in both countries. I am fluent in one language of the United Kingdom and in two of the five official languages of Spain, have a good insight into both cultures and societies, have numerous contacts at different levels in the aviation industries of Spain and the UK, and have trained and flown in both places. I have also the luxury of not being bound by financial constraints and have nothing at stake when flying apart from my personal safety and that of others, aviation being just one of my pastimes.

All that said, for those who are looking for the best country in which to obtain their licences, purely in terms of quality of training, and uncompromising excellence, from my experience I cannot recommend but one place: France :ok:

FWIW. I hope this helps some of the young lads out there who for whatever reason want to make aviation their career. Best of luck in your endeavours. :)

[porridge]

There is certainly something going on in Spain regarding IR training and passes.
Here are some comments I have received/heard.
At our school in the UK we had a Spanish guy doing his IR and one day I asked him why he was doing his IR in the UK not Spain. He said: “because my father told me to do it here in the UK”. So I said why was that? He replied “because the Spanish IR is not recognised by the Spanish major airlines”, “Oh” I said, "so what does your father do to qualify him to say this?" “Because he is a Senior Captain with Iberia”, he replied.
Also a lady who converted her FAA IR in Spain and she told me that the school she was at that the standard of training was shocking, also that one British person was so poor with her IR capabilities that she was convinced this person would not pass, but to her surprise she did and first time too!
I also trained someone for an FI (R) who had done his IR in Spain and I have to say it was apparent that his IR skills were fairly lacking, one day he was asked to accompany someone on a flight to France on a day when filing IR would have been ideal, but he went VFR at 1500 feet! He said he had never been in Controlled Airspace. He also used to get backseat rides on IR training flights we were doing to get experience in Controlled Airspace.
I’m not saying every place is the same for IR training in Spain, but quite a few people I know are getting concerned about the standard of graduates from that part of the EU. Also does anyone know about the pass rate on hours flown out there? From what I gather everyone does their courses spot on the hours and passes first time.
Before I am accused of bias I would like to point out I did a FI (R) for a Frenchman who graduated from a school in Montpellier and I have to say his flying skills all round VFR & IR were excellent, his English wasn’t that good to start with but he quickly improved. I was hoping to get him to work as an Instructor for us, but he got an airline job in France just after he finished his course.
At the end of the day it may also be down to the individual as to what they do to progress after the IR and of course the standard of the school where they do it. From what I hear the examiners are attached to a school in some way and have a vested interest, unlike in the UK where the examiners are directly employed by the CAA. Personally I would like to see the CAA endorse the licenses they issue with comment as to which state the person did their IR in as they do with license conversions.

[Captain_djaffar]

And does the price which account for the (say) training,(say) hours,(say) rating remain original and unchanged?

[Whirlygig]

Is there an IR part in the CPL curriculum in the UK?
Well, there is for helicopters; why not for fixed wing?

Cheers

Whirls

[ford cortina]

In the airline I work for we use Lambert and Butler Charts and a John Player Special QRH:D

[Nearly There]

This thread makes for no debate unless the schools name(s) is mentioned, I think it would be more beneficial to find out the good the bad and the ugly, but instead a whole country is being tarred with the same brush.



Unfortunately though some schools due to their lack of aircraft and instructors allow students to simply log flights, which they NEVER flew.
When the aircraft and instructor situation has worsened - Instrument Ratings have also been granted along with all relevant paperwork and logbook entries faked without a flight test even taking place. I also am seriously concerned about the integrity of the individuals I know who took part in such illegal activities.
Those who (say) took the Spanish IR often never flew a published approach, and examiners are known to draw approaches on a bit of scrap paper and ask the applicant to fly said approach. Some Instrument rated pilots who (say) they took the test, said they also never flew an approach in the test!

Which school(s) is it that you have heard of this going on?
FTE (Jerez) and Aerodynamics (Malaga), certainly would not allow these practices to go on.

[geordiejet]

When I was at ADM - there was absolutely none of that going on.

I flew all of the prescribed hours. Nothing was faked. And I didn't hear anyone when I was there saying there were dodgy dealings going on.

The test was done in a real plane, on an extremely busy Summer morning in AGP.

The instructors in the plane were extremely strict - and they took everything seriously.

I was there for 4 weeks, and there were at least 3 people who failed, one of them twice.

I don't know what schools all of that nonsense is meant to take place in. But it didn't in ADM, and from what I've heard, Aerofan is sound too.

As it is ADM and Aerofan who most people from the UK go to, I am a little unsure as to where these stories come from.

[BigGrecian]

Unfortunately, I know of the first three taking place - they took place at one of the schools mentioned above - Sorry Doctor Doom but it's happening. :eek:


Regarding the MCC, and the CPL Instrument test segment which is required, that's largely based on student ability, however, I wouldn't disagree at the same time.

[ConcernedIR]

So in other words your expecting me to name those pilots invovled on a public forum - I don't think so. I don't fancy myself in court due to liable laws. That's up to their integrity to come forward.

The school involved has been mentioned above though. :eek:

If you want any more proof, go to a school which trains students who did a Spanish IR before their CPL. :bored:

[Nearly There]

2 guys who trained in Spain I know off 1 just started on 737 2 weeks ago the other passed his LST on a320 friday just gone. Maybe you should contact there new employers (both UK based) and express your concerns as there training captains didnt spot any IR faults!:ugh:

[acuba 290]

ConcernedIR (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/256341-concernedir) all you do is just spit into our faces, people, who has choosed wrong parents and with very restricted financial possibilities for flight training/ IR training in UK.

I NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! believe, that it is truth, that somebody has ever got in any JAA state IR rating without doing skill test, so please just stop with it!!!!

[BigGrecian]

Sorry acuba 290, I'm with ConcernedIR.

I know of a few people who never took an IR test and a couple more who logged training they didn't complete.

NearlyThere, I don't disagree that there are many people with Spanish IRs flying around, however, I would agree with the general statement regarding those with such an IR.....

[BigGrecian]

It's amazing what people confess to after a couple of drinks.

And I couldn't care less where people spent their money. I work for neither a UK flight organisation, nor any UK airfield, nor the taxman (Think that covers who could make money out of flying in the UK.) And for what it's worth I did my IR abroad.

What I do care about is who is flying my family around, especially when I assume they have the relevant skills and have passed the relevant tests.

I applaud ConcernedIRs effort to start this discussion, all I'm doing is saying that I know that at least a few of his points are true...So let us discuss rather than discount.

[hughesyd]

never heard so much crap in all my life!!. i see the general pattern here is " i heard this from someone" or" i did my IR i the UK but the guys who failed did theirs in spain!!".

There is one thing that the UK does have that Spain doesnt though,.......... Stuffy ****holes who look down thier nose at guys who have got the same licence cheaper in another country!!!

I mean, look at all those spanish aircraft dropping out of the sky due to unskilled pilots. :ugh::ugh:

[Nearly There]

Name and shame the school(s) then, instead of all this ive heard, my mate says etc, it will make for a more constructive thread than eveyone linked to Spain is in someway sub standard.
I did my IR at Aerodynamics and got out what I put in, I have no concerns with my IR ability, and as I said in a previous post nor do the guys I know who are flying airbus, boeing or air taxi.
There is normaly no smoke without fire, so maybe these practices are happening who knows, but it certainly didnt happen at AD.
As for the logging flights that did not take place, would you be happy paying for a flight and not actually doing it, I cant imagine any of the career minded flight students I know of doing that.

[scallaghan]

Hi

Who are the recommended schools in Spain for JAA IR's?

Currently looking at taking a IR course upon completing a CPL.

[ConcernedIR]

Well, I'll tell you it wasn't Aerofan.

To add something as a rumour to the thread (The rest as stated I know to be true) look what's been written on another thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/333037-bonus-aviation.html) where there is further discussion about the Spanish IR.

A little bird tells me that the CAA are considering endorsing the UK issued CPL with the state of initial IRT on it as industry is concerned that the Spanish are taking the Michael on this.

[acuba 290]

@ConcernedIR
may I ask you, why and with which reason are you started all this?
Do you have a problem with people from poor families, who can not finance IR in UK or other West European schools?
You know well, that only financial reason pushes lots of us to go to Spain and not a wish to get something easier or without skill test (still don't believe you that it possible)...

[hughesyd]

Ladies and gentlemen, i am writing this with no malice or indeed any hatred for spanish schools. How is this so?, because i have been training in spain up until recently, if you look at my past threads, i have actually defended training in spain. i have completed my atpls in a spanish school and am now ready to complete, the cpl/ir/me. i am booked on a course at a spanish school ready to start next week. i for one am now going to cancel for the following reasons. Upon me ringing to confirm the start date, for my cpl, i was told not to worry, everything is in place and i am booked on. then was advised that there will be no skills test as the spanish issue a cpl licence on the basis of you just actually completing the course!. now im not going to get into details of schools ect, but i will be investigating further as to find if this is the case or not. I am a uk citizen, who went to spain beacuse of weather , price ect. the schools are generally good, but i have experienced countless problems over the last two years. I have decided to stay in the uk, save up and complete here, even for just my own piece of mind in considering whether airlines will in future have a problem with the way licences/ratings are gained in spain. i have luckily already had permission to complete the cpl in the uk after getting authorisation from the spanish for the uk to be the state of licence issue.

I have learnt the Hard way , if something seems to good to be true, it usually is. The cpl at this particular school is around £2500 cheaper than if you did it in the UK!

[ConcernedIR]

I couldn't care less how much money you have acuba - that is definitely not the topic of conversation or what I want to discuss and please don't continue the thread on the topic of money.

What I'm concerned about is the lack of standards and the issues I've all ready stated.

[hughesyd]

mAYBE IM DUE A LITTLE HUMBLE PIE! , ALL THIS HAS HAPPENED BETWEEN MY THREAD A FEW ABOVE AND TODAY!!.

[breakbreak]

employers base their decision on aptitude tests, sim assessments and technical interviews as the selection process is meant to be objective and non-discriminatory.
so please don’t use these scare tactics.
if the UK schools were reasonably priced, there wouldn't be a need for this thread.

cabair and oat ok, but please don’t bring in bonus aviation and other jokers to set our standards :8

[ajec]

Sometimes reading this forum makes we wish id never signed up for it because some of the things discussed on this forum is stupid because it is impossible for everybody that goes to a flight school to have a good time/experience or whatever the case may be. But then to be bringing down the integrity of a country a flight school is not enough for some people anymore..is pretty ridiculous if you ask me.I find it very hard to believe that a school would fiddle with log books and risk dragging their school through the mud for a couple of flights and for everybody that went through its doors dont ya think that id would of been noticed before this, I just think that it is unfair to be speaking so negatively and putting off ''wannabees'' because of a personal grudge or a disliking for a particular place. I hate readind a thread and seeing ''xxxx flight school is rubbish or country xxxx is crappy dont go there'' why would you bother doing it??

[RVR800]

It would be great if internationally we could organise civil aviation ratings so that all this was uneccessary

A lot of this I feel is the good old tried and tested "vested interest dressed up as safety" argument.

All those FAA IRs flying in and out of Heathrow everyday and now the Spanish as well and this is Britain (shock horror) and we are the best duh! :ugh:

[LH2]

was advised that there will be no skills test as the spanish issue a cpl licence on the basis of you just actually completing the course

Lost in translation maybe? You most certainly do need to do a skills test, which people fail regularly, just like elsewhere.

[Nearly There]

was advised that there will be no skills test as the spanish issue a cpl licence on the basis of you just actually completing the course

oh plllleease:ugh:

[geordiejet]

Honestly, the BS on here just gets more incredible as the days go by!

I wish I had one of these mystical examiners who "don't turn up" or turn up, but don't actually do the exam - would have saved me a lot of stress, and more leisure time (I only managed one night out in the entire 5 weeks).

And these people who claim they didn't fly, but logged the hours, and were "given" a pass - it's complete and utter BS.

[porridge]

It is more than anecdotal now that there is more than passing concern about the standard of the IR training in Spain. Take, for instance, this example:

An individual did his IR training with a very professional school on the south coast. He did much more than the required hours and failed the initial Skill Test – he then went to Spain and did another complete IR course with well know Madrid based school and had a successful skill test pass. When he subsequently applied to the CAA for issue of his CPL (A) with the IR attached, this was refused on the grounds that he had not followed procedures (i.e. he had already failed the first test in a series in the UK and thus needed to complete it with the CAA). The CAA then stipulated that he undertake training as necessary, here in the UK, followed by the Skill Test.
This person went to another school in another part of the country and did some 60 hours of Sim training and 30 hours of actual twin engine flying! During this time he was advised by the school about the advisability of continuing, eventually another skill test was undertaken resulting in a partial pass. However the subsequent retest he then failed the NDB section again and thus lost his partial on the first series and would have then had to start a complete new series. I understand that the person has now taken the advice he should have taken in the beginning.
There are many more similar examples, but it appears that most people who find themselves in this position go to Spain before they get to this situation quoted above.

So the two issues that come out of this are:

1. If you have any doubts about your ability to pass an IR properly – then get yourself of to Spain. Especially if the school you are with in the UK has doubts about your ability to pass here BEFORE you take an attempt at the IRT here in the UK.

2. If you have passed the IRT here in the UK make very sure to highlight this on your applications and interviews with prospective employers so you are not associated muppets who have gone to Spain.

Unfortunately those of us who have passed here have to put up with the ignominy of being put in the same class as those who went to Spain. I certainly don’t think that the cost difference makes a blind bit of difference; people who couldn’t make the grade would go there anyway.

Frankly I am amazed that the Spanish schools don’t charge a premium for the service - perhaps the will soon!

[miss magenta]

:)What an interesting thread!

I trained and passed the IRT in the UK quite some time ago. I am now CFI of a commercial pilot school here in Spain and feel that I´m, probably more qualified than most to give my opinion on this matter.

1/ I have never had a student take a test on paper only. The very suggestion is ridiculous and to be honest, offensive. They take the skill test for the CPL always, weather integrated or modular, and again for the ME/IR. The examiner is nothing to do with the school and I actually try to change examiner when I can so that no bond is formed. This is not as easy as in the UK as our examiners here in Spain are 90% flying for the airlines and hard to book.

2/ The training here is to the same syllabus as every other JAA country. I agree with a previous post that the IR skills taught here are very much orientated to flying commercially and not towards passing a test. This has it´s pros and cons but on the whole it turns out well prepared pilots. (I´ve just lost 2 low hour instructors to the airlines and the amount of students that get jobs is very high). In the UK I was taught to a standard that is certainly very high but it was just a ticking boxes procedure which I now look back on as being somewhat pedantic.
As to the approaches flown here for the test. If on the day of the test the approach is denied by ATC then you have to either fly it on the sim or go up again or fly to another airport. (You cannot book slots for training due to the fact that the international airports are very busy with all the tourists coming in).

3/I think that anyone who says that practices such as phantom tests/flights, are facts and has first hand knowledge of them, should report it to the DGAC.
And I should just mention that although they are very slow, closed in August, dont answer the phone etc.. They are certainly not fools and if you could see the amount of documentation I have to send in every time for license issue, you would realise that inventing flights and not taking tests just isnt even an option.

4/As to the person needing extra IR traing for their CPL, wel... maybe they should come and finish here in Spain. We follow the syllabus to the best of our ability. The instrument flying required for the CPL is basic to say the least and the CPL is often done before the IR in the UK as well as here.

5/ I would apprciate it if you all realised that different countries will do things different ways. A childish "my country is better than yours" debate is not very productive. If things are wrong here then we need to do something about it (and I´m sure that some things could be loads better) and likewise in the UK. I can still remember very well the dozens of VFR flights taking off in IMC!

And just to finish, my last IR modular student has 6500 hours on an ICAO non JAA license and flies a Mustang. He chose Spain to convert to JAA because of the good wx, good prices and good training. Dont think you can call him a muppet who cant make the grade.
I havent mentioned the school I work for or where we are because I dont want it considered to be publicity, not due to any other reason.
As to the premium for UK students...thanks for the idea, I´ll consider it very carefully! :)

[breakbreak]

if you do IR in Spain or any other JAA country, it is recognised in all JAA countries.
porridge:}: I worked in department dealing with licensing issues and what you are saying is not true at all and doesn't make any sense.

[porridge]

So breakbreak, if you worked in the "department" you say you did, you might know the case I am referring to. Also what part is not true? I do have the facts and so do CAA FCL. Short of naming the person involved and their CAA ref number I'm sure you'll be able to work it out from your "departmental" experience.
Go figure everyone!

[breakbreak]

You would only have his CAA ref number if you were his instructor.
Job well done!

[quackers]

I think 'Breakbreak' raises an fair point here - if 'Porridge' was the students instructor why did he not identify /recitfy the problems his student was obviously having. During my training I came across some schools/instructors who were quite happy for me to simply burn a hole in my account, criticising but making no real effort to suggest remedies to problems. Let's not forget, these schools are running a business to make money and, therefore, some will keep the student with them as long as possible (I'm not suggesting that they all have this philosophy just 'some'). During my first IR test (which I failed) the examiner recognised that my 'scan' was incorrect and that, if he were my instructor, he could cure the problem in about four hours - why hadn't my instructor picked up on this fact? Anybody that has studied and passed the ATPL exams (which most IR students will have done) has obviously studied hard. Most will also have passed their CPL test, so they are not stupid (or 'muppets' as Porridge so eloquently puts it). Can you really blame them, if having spent all that time, money and effort, they opt to go to Spain to get the requisite IR before the three year time limit expires - most will be virtually skint by this time and at £250 to £300 per hour for twin IR training in the UK some will have no other option (aside from the cheaper cost in Spain, due to the weather you can virtually guarantee completing the course in about four weeks - definitely NOT possible in the UK . If you have to take time off from your day job this can be a very important factor as well).
You will get good and bad instructors/schools in all countries. I have personal experience in UK, USA and Spain. Just because you pay a 'lot' more in the UK doesn't necessarily equate to better instruction.

[madlandrover]

From the little I've seen of people who've trained both in Spain and the UK (UK IR for me, Spanish IR for a friend and also for my MCC partner last year) a lot depends on the individual. I suspect a certain amount of the poor reputation of Spanish IRs is down to a significant amount of "slower" students going for that option because of the existing reputation for cheaper & easier training - it's a vicious circle. Yes, of course there are benefits to doing the entire course in the aircraft in real flying, although sim training also has benefits when it comes to getting the basics spot on before adding the complexity of the real thing.

Oddly enough this came up in conversations with 2 separate CAA Staff Examiners last year. One didn't discuss the standards, but did say that he could see a lot of training migrating down to the Med over the next few years to take advantage of the weather. The other mentioned a lack of any formal provable evidence of poor training (accepting in all fairness that certain schools do train to a very high standard!) but said that the CAA were concerned about variable training standards when issuing the same rating to everyone.

Maybe it's partly about training for the environment you intend to fly in? Personally, I felt I gained a lot from training to operate single pilot IFR through some of the weather we had last September, without the option to climb above weather. Equally, flying in good weather gives more of a chance to get the approaches nailed perfectly every time. It's always a compromise! On the other hand, I'm somewhat sceptical of places that can complete an FIC in 3 weeks as a friend teaching elsewhere did. Hard to fit both the flying and groundschool requirements in in that time!

Quite a long post I'm afraid, but I'd hope there were a few valid points worth considering there, as well as some middle ways to look at.

[porridge]

Just to clarify this - I never met or trained the person concerned, however I did receive this information from the last training provider as our school was approached by this individual to continue his IR training. As far as I recall we were too busy at the time to accommodate him. It would appear it was a basket case by then anyway. So sorry not guilty, but I take the point on being able to identify the problems as a good instructor. In most cases where people cannot master the IR it usually comes down to absolute basics.
1. Never learnt to master trimming the aircraft - particulary in level flight
2. Most importantly has never been taught to master basic instrument scanning techniques - no idea of the importance of the VSI in the scan for accurate level flight
3. Poor ADF/NDB techniques and ability to stay on top of the effects of wind and correct properly.
As a FIC instructor I cannot emphasise enough to aspirant IR instrucors just how important these basics are and indentfying the problems early and rectifying immediately!