Help please with airways routings??

[Stampe]

After many years of just flying the heavy iron I,ve revalidated my single engine crew piston instrument rating (tough after years of being mollycuddled in an airliner)...VFR around Southern England has become hard work of recent years.Based at Rochester my two principle routes of interest are the Scilly Isles EGHE and Alderney EGJA.Suggestions welcome for routings that will work for you guys and won,t be thrown out by the dreaded computer maximum FL100.Rochester seems to be able to give dep. clearances to feed into the system (usually remain clear squawk xxxx contact London on departure on xxx.xxx)Any help much appreciated .VBR Stampe.

[bookworm]

No fun being your own ops department, is it? ;)

Have you found the UK Standard Route Document (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=186&Itemid=258.html)? While it doesn't list routes that answer your specific questions, it is a great deal of help in general.

For Rochester, I imagine Biggin deps/arrivals would be a good guide. I imagine Alderney routes would be as for EGJJ. For EGHE it's trickier because there are no lower airways beyond BHD and no helpful routes < FL100 beyond SAM.

[Cartman's Twin]

OK so first thing's first, I'm no flight planning expert, JUST an ATCO. For Alderney I'd expect to route you via LYD then G27 to NEVIL. This is of course providing you're happy flying the more direct, but longer over-water distance. Else file G27 - Y8 to go LYD, SFD, GWC, SAM (SAM route required to stay inside CAS) - ORTAC.

As was rightly mentioned routing via SAM to HE will leave you outside CAS after SAM. Options would include asking the MIL for a service or perhaps Bournemouth LARS(?). I'm not sure if it's significantly longer on the routing front but another option would be to route via CPT and L9. This would keep you inside CAS for much longer. Be warned that if you wish to enter CAS ASAP after departure from TO you can expect to be routed a long way South unless Gatwick is very quiet. Something like LYD - SFD - GWC - CPT. An option worth thinking about is staying below CAS routing via BIG - OCK with maybe a friendly service from Thames, Gatwick (maybe) then Farnborough who will negotiate directly with TC for joining instructions. You'll save about 40 miles then and still be inside CAS well before CPT.

Hope that helps!

[Stampe]

Thanks very much ...very helpful searching the aip I found the following under Rochester so procedures do exist but seem to fallen into disuse as the GEC Kingair has long gone.File and see????.I don,t mind routing down the channel in reasonable weather providing I can get a decent level say 080

Standard Departure Routes - via Airways
b Standard Arrival Routes. The standard routes for inbound aircraft are detailed in the Standard Arrival Routes (STAR) shown at AD
2-EGLC-7-1/2/3.
c Radio Communication Failure Procedures
i Inbound Aircraft. In the event of complete radio communication failure in an aircraft, the pilot is to adopt the appropriate procedure
described at ENR 1.1.3 until:
1 SPEAR STAR (AD 2-EGLC-7-1). Descend in the SPEAR hold to leave Controlled Airspace and proceed to Rochester.
2 ALKIN STAR via SANDY (AD 2-EGLC-7-2). Leave SANDY at FL 70 and route to BONDY - DET. Descend to maintain FL 60 to be level
before BONDY. At BONDY descend to leave Controlled Airspace and proceed to Rochester.
Note: Non-RNAV equipped aircraft will be routed via LYD and are to leave LYD at FL 60 and route to DET. At 12 DME DET descend
to leave Controlled Airspace and proceed to Rochester.
ii Outbound Aircraft. For the purposes of radio failure, the climb to flight planned level should be commenced after the last position shown in
the Standard Departure Routes where an altitude or flight level is specified.
d VFR Flight Procedures
i A standard overhead join is preferred but other joins may be requested.
ii Departing Runways 02 and 34 to the east via the overhead is preferred but a right turn after passing 1500 ft QFE can be requested.
iii Departing Runways 16 and 20 to the east, aircraft should depart overhead or climb ahead on runway heading until clear of the built up area
to the east.
iv Circuit height is 1000 ft QNE, always flown to the west.
v A standard circuit pattern should be flown within the ATZ which is geographically marked to the north and west by the River Medway, turning
on to finals at 2 nm.
EGTO AD 2.22 – FLIGHT PROCEDURES
Departure to Designator Via Route and Altitudes
North Brookmans Park 3 L10/N57 Direct BPK.
(BPK 3) Cross 20 DME BPK above 3000 ft climbing to 4000 ft.
Northeast Clacton 3 (CLN 3) L620 DET - SND - CLN.
Cross DET RDL 017° DME 7 at 5000 ft.
Southeast Dover 3 (DVR 3) L9/L10 Direct DVR.
Climbing to 4000 ft.
South Lydd 3 (LYD 3) G27 DET - LYD.
(R803) Climbing to 4000 ft.
Southwest Southampton 3 R8 DET - LYD - G27 - WAFFU - Y8 - GWC - SAM.
(SAM 3) Climbing to 4000 ft.
West Compton 3 (CPT 3) L9 BPK - HEN - CPT.
Cross 20 DME BPK above 3000 ft climbing to 4000 ft.er Rochester procedures:

[flowman]

Why don't you do what the professional ops people do?
Just file a plan with EGHE dct EGJA, then stick "IFPS re-route accepted" in field 18 and let somebody else sort it out for you.:rolleyes:

[Cobalt]

It depends whether you want to go there just IFR or you want to go there on airways IFR.

The airways route is

DCT DET DCT LYD G27 WAFFU Y8 SAM R41 ORTAC

which is almost 45% longer than the GC distance and minimum FL 100. Routing via LYD is compulsory.

You could file

DCT DET DCT LYD R803 MID R8 SAM R41 ORTAC DCT

which is acceptable and a little bit shorter, but are unlikely to get it as you will be getting in the way of Gatwick in the climb.

But at lower altitudes there is no airways route.

In real life, unless you want the extra hours (as you are an airline pilot I doubt that) or absolutely HAVE to have protected airspace around you, I would fly this route mainly outside controlled airspace. For that, you could file

DCT DET DCT SFD DCT NEDUL R41 ORTAC DCT

at FL60 or above, but you would very likely have to remain below CAS (3,400ft until halfway to SFD, then FL50 until 22D from SFD) and negotiate a join with Solent. This might confuse the hell out of ATC as the FPL does not indicate where you intend to join CAS, so would put in a RMK to that effect, and expect some confusion and "can't find your flight plan' in the air.

Next post will be about the Scillies, and a shameless plug that you should join PPL/IR (www.pplir.org (http://www.pplir.org)) where you will find more people who can help you with stuff specific to light aircraft under IFR in Europe.

[Cobalt]

Going to the scillies, you will be OCAS for the last leg as there are no airways out there. Several air bases provides a radar service in this area, St. Mawgan definitely on Weekends. That last bit is from DAWLY DCT LND DCT.

If you are for maximum CAS protection, Cartman's Twin is spot on - use L9 via CPT.

DCT BPK DCT HEN DCT CPT L9 BCN N864 DAWLY DCT LND DCT

works, but is 344 miles (vs. 273 GC, +26%). FL90 and above.


While you could in theroy fly southward via LYD and then follow

DCT DET DCT LYD G27 WAFFU Y8 SAM R8 DAWLY DCT LND DCT

you would be below CAS for most of the leg between SAM and DAWLY, as the airway MEA rises to FL140 and later to FL200. To get this through CFMU, which will reject the above at FL100 becaues of this, you ctually have to file

DCT DET DCT LYD G27 WAFFU Y8 SAM DCT SAM257025 DCT DAWLY DCT LND DCT

This saves you 18 NM (326 NM).


As I believe you are after maximum CAS protection in busy areas, the short cut as highlighted by Cartman's Twin (via BIG and OCK below the London TMA at 2400ft) is exactly what you don't want to do, but if you do, to get that through CFMU you should file VFR to a specific airway join point to avoid CFMU checks for that part of the route and also to make it clear where you intend to join CAS.

Hope this helps - and I would consider going to www.pplir.org (http://www.pplir.org), where you will find quite a few people who know this sort of thing...

[bookworm]

Why don't you do what the professional ops people do?
Just file a plan with EGHE dct EGJA, then stick "IFPS re-route accepted" in field 18 and let somebody else sort it out for you.

If CFMU would just release Daedalus to aircraft operators, they wouldn't need to, would they?

[flowman]

I seem to remember that was proposed once upon a time but a certain provider of FPL services complained that it would put them out of business.
That was the end of that.
The next proposed change is to give it to AROs. That could happen within the next 12 months.

[bookworm]

I seem to remember that was proposed once upon a time but a certain provider of FPL services complained that it would put them out of business.
That was the end of that.

Ah. Suddenly it all makes sense. ;)

I think it hs been rolled out to AROs, hasn't it? I just don't have an ARO with the appropriate kit within 100 miles.

[Cobalt]

The application to generate a route is almost trivial. For this application to work, however, it needs access to data (mainly airways and SIDs/STARs and restrictions) and the ability to verify routes using CFMU. Of these two, the data is the tough one, as nav data providers are making money selling it.

Eurocontrol have a database (EAD) with a well-defined, public data model (AIXMS) covering the entire ECAC airspace. If that were public, anyone could incorporate it / use it from their applications, and we would not have these "how to get from A to B without CFMU rejecting the flight plan" questions all the time.

I don't think the providers of flight planning services are threatened by the application Daedalus at all - they do a lot more than working out a CFMU compliant route.

The are navdata providers are also not theratened by the application. But the navdata providers would be threatened by the navigation database becoming freely accessible.

Interesting how taxpayers and Eurocontrol charge payer's money is used to create something that then is not publicly available to protect commercial interests...

[flowman]

Cobalt,
I made some enquiries about why AOs cannot be given access to Daedalus and the navigation database.
It seems that all the equipment and software is in place to enable access, it is a simple matter of flicking a switch.
It has been proposed on a number of occasions by this unit that access be given but as always politics intervened- internal and external politics.
IFPU spend a lot of time and energy here correcting FPLs when in actual fact they would be better employed updating and fine tuning the database, educating Daedalus and helping AOs with the problems that are inevitable with this type of large scale operation. So the will exists here.
The loud voice for change cannot come from us mere operational mortals, it should come loud and clear from the AOs through the appropriate channels.
The management struture of Eurocontrol is being changed as we speak, the management board will soon consist of representatives form the ANSP and AO communities.
There is your way in.

[flowman]

How to win friends and influence people!
What a nice guy you must be Rescue 3.
The flight plan unit spend their working lives sorting out the crap that is put into the system. In many cases they are under no obligation to do so.
Shame you do not mention the name of your company or I'm sure I could give you examples of how you too have been assisted.
This forum should be used as a way of trying to identify problems and to resolve them.
The kind of remark you have made is a complete disincentive for anyone interested in trying to overcome the many anomalies.
I will now step out of this particular thread before it develops into the typical pprune slanging match.

[Stampe]

Thanks guys very helpful,sorrry to be slow replying been off on a trip.All seems quite complex compared to the day job and the ready made well oiled system with a good ops department in Hannover working for me.The suggestion on Alderney is more or less what I,ve doing but remaining below R41 when my track merges.I,m looking at running down the channel remaining clear at as good an altitude as I can get and negotiating with the military for a service on the Scillies run.I sometimes wonder if we make the best use of the lower levels we could , I,m rarely down there in the work jet and well remember halcyon days twenty five years ago running round deserted Uk skies at levels up to 190 in the wonderful Viscount.I wonder if those middle levels are still as deserted away from the major terminal areas??.Its still a very big sky!!!.

[Cobalt]

Depends on what you call mid level.

FL100 - airways base is pretty much MIL playground, which is just fine as you can get MARS when they play. You get somewhat useless traffic calls, though (Traffic 1 'clock maneouvering, FL120, no, FL160, no FL220)... :-)

Otherwise pretty empty up there. Very few VFR piston types appear to go above FL60 or so, but I have no evidence to back that up.

C.

PS Joined PPL/IR yet? We don't bite ATPLs...

[IO540]

I wonder if those middle levels are still as deserted away from the major terminal areas??.Its still a very big sky!!!.

On a flight across Europe, FL100-180, say 700nm, you are highly unlikely to get visual with another aircraft (not counting contrails at FL300+ etc). And this includes crossing the busiest areas e.g. Brussels.

"IFA GA" flies in a huge empty void.

The only busy bits are the terminal areas but they are dealt with by minimum overfly levels (say FL130 for Frankfurt) when you occassionally get visual with big stuff way below, or by Eurocontrol routings taking you way away from these areas.

The radio traffic confirms the situation to be as I describe.

As Cobalt says, very little VFR traffic above FL060, in fact I would have used a much lower figure than 060 :) I'd say 95-99% is below 2000ft.